Falco's Match-Ups IMO

[DEHF]

45-55
50-50
55-45
40-60
50-50
50-50
60-40
30-70
60-40
55-45
60-40
55-45
55-45
60-40
55-45
60-40
60-40
55-45
55-45
60-40
60-40
50-50
65-35
60-40
65-35
65-35
65-35
60-40
60-40
60-40
65-35
70-30
75-25
65-35
75-25
80-20

-

DISCUSS

 

[ANTi_]

Wrong x36.

 

[BIGM1994]

how do you play the falco vs kirby MU?

 

[clowsui]

what ruleset are we using here? TJ? EC/WC? BBR?

 

[DEHF]

Lets say the Apex ruleset.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I do not disagree with any of them. Not sure why anyone would disagree with this list be to be honest. The match-up numbers only fluxtuate around 5 or so points from DEHF's opinion.

 

[CO18]

When I saw this as the most recent thread in falco boards I was hoping it wasnt you so I could say.

"You are not DEHF so you do not have the right to make this thread as your opinion is irrelevant"

but u ruined it for me.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

I agree MK has a slight advantage in the matchup, I've always thought that since MK has a much easier time coming back from a deficit than Falco. Glad we are on the same page there.

I still think Marth has a slight advantage against Falco, like 45:55 for us.

I think Fox is probably dead even.

I agree we are about 55:45 against Peach, I was somewhat surprised that you agree.

IC's yeah are definitely at least 4:6 -- might be 35:65 but probably not.

I agree DeDeDe we only win 6:4, very doable for DeDeDe on the right stage.

I don't think Falco beats Olimar that bad, I just think you're personally good at the matchup Just like IC's, you're good at that one too. As a character, I don't think Falco is advantaged though.

I agree with most of this but I would add or subtract ~5% on some of them. I think that Falco has less 65:35's against the characters you listed him as having that big of an advantage against. Specifically Ness, Lucas, and ZSS. I'd probably change them to 6:4's.

 

[Omni]

I'm not questioning the only Falco who seems to be doing it right.

 

[Master Raven]

hey guys remember when GnW had a 7-3 advantage on Falco LOL

 

[Brawlin]

I agree with your opinions on the character Mus. Your opinions also are not bias either. I think Zelda might be 60:40 though.

 

[clowsui]

Confused as to why you think Snake is only 50-50 when a few months ago you were quite sure Falco had the advantage

 

[swordsaint]

I disagree with Pikachu, I think it's closer to 60:40. We're disadvantaged, but one grab from Falco puts Pikachu at 50%+. With that percent we're able to platform camp Pikachu enough to remove their chaingrab. And I personally think that without their chaingrab the matchup would be in OUR favour, however they do have it. I just think that we have the tools to avoid it, and then nullify it.

Once we have that 50% on them if they wait for the chaingrab they're just killing the timer.

Also, if we're able to get the first kill in this matchup. Suddenly Falco has an advantage, Pikachu can't simply wait for that grab, and Falco can play the game HE wants to. The cycle repeats with 1 grab on our side equating to the removal of theirs.

For the first 20% (maybe 21%?) or so, we can camp near an edge too, without the need for the platforms. With this in mind, if the Pikachu is doing what they usually do and merely ducking lasers, we have run off lasers to rack up damage. If they approach, our job of getting that grab to remove their chaingrab becomes a little easier.

Obviously the matchup isn't all about who gets the first grab though, once the grab game becomes less important, I do think Falco has the upperhand. We keep Pikachu out fairly well IMO. Jabs just feel like they Pikachu's bane, and I'm almost certain ftilt is fairly safe on shield here as well. Including Pikachu's slightly lower weight class kills will come a little earlier than usual if the opportunity is there (BDacus anyone?)

Apart from that, I'm confident that our bair/nair/uair is superior to Pikachu's aerial game. Specifically in range and power, and the setups that come from airdodged uairs.

Maybe I'm crazy, but I think the matchup is overrated.

Pikachu's the only one I disagree with here, and everything else is solid.

 

[Orion*]

hey guys remember when GnW had a 7-3 advantage on Falco LOL

YOOOOO I HATED DAT SHIZ SON. gaw was like lol bair, and the smash community was like FUUUUU

also, i have an easier time with pikachus than ics XD so wtf at this

 

[-LzR-]

No wonder my friend always kicks my Jigglypuff's ***. I never believed that 50-50 Jiggz boards say >_>

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Are there even any notiable Falco vs Pikachu match-ups played in any large/national touraments lately that involved Shugo, DEHF, or SK92?

 

[Cloud9157]

"You are not DEHF so you do not have the right to make this thread as your opinion is irrelevant"

LOL quotable definitely.

6-4 on Oli? And I don't think Climbers really have a solid advantage on us. Just my opinion, so it kinda is irrelevant.

I'd agree on just about the rest of em though.

 

[Bloodcross]

Are there even any notiable Falco vs Pikachu match-ups played in any large/national touraments lately that involved Shugo, DEHF, or SK92?

SK92 vs Z
DEHF vs... no one LOL
Shugo vs Anther (maybe)
Keitaro vs ESAM

I'm speaking all tournaments not just national/large. Honestly, not much.

 

[Shugo-Chan]

I believe falco vs marth is 45:55..and maybe falco vs gnw 55:45 imo. Everything else I fully agree with.

And no i've never played anther or any other pikachu with falco..im deathly afraid of the pikachu matchup.

 

[I Dair You]

HRNut recently won a FL tourney with Falco. Grand finals were HRNut (Falco) vs CO18(Pikachu). Look up this set if you wanna see just how Falco can beat Pika.

 

[Bloodcross]

^ Oh yeah that too


Only thing I disagree with is Olimar. 55-45.

 

[swordsaint]

Yeah it's entirely possible which is why I disagree with 65-35 on that match up.

One grab for Falco makes the whole match with Pikachu 10x easier.

 

[DEHF]

I agree MK has a slight advantage in the matchup, I've always thought that since MK has a much easier time coming back from a deficit than Falco. Glad we are on the same page there.

I still think Marth has a slight advantage against Falco, like 45:55 for us.

I think Fox is probably dead even.

I agree we are about 55:45 against Peach, I was somewhat surprised that you agree.

IC's yeah are definitely at least 4:6 -- might be 35:65 but probably not.

I agree DeDeDe we only win 6:4, very doable for DeDeDe on the right stage.

I don't think Falco beats Olimar that bad, I just think you're personally good at the matchup Just like IC's, you're good at that one too. As a character, I don't think Falco is advantaged though.

I agree with most of this but I would add or subtract ~5% on some of them. I think that Falco has less 65:35's against the characters you listed him as having that big of an advantage against. Specifically Ness, Lucas, and ZSS. I'd probably change them to 6:4's.

I don't see how Marth has a slight advantage, I believe that Sheik would more likely has a 55-45 match up on Falco than Marth does.

Fox Falco might be dead even. I'll talk to TKD about it.

Falco Peach I've thought was pretty close for a while. I played Nicole at Apex and she pretty much solidified what I thought about the match up.

I don't feel that I'm exceptionally good vs Olimar, I just actually know the match up. I'm not that good vs ICs tbh, I hardly get practice vs them.

The reason Falco is 65-35 vs Ness and Lucas is because he can grab release up smash them regardless of ground release or air release and grabbing both of these characters as Falco isn't very hard.

ZSS can't do anything about Falco's double jab. Their only hope is to attempt to power shield the 2 frame jab or jab back if Falco is double jabbing over and over, but Falco can jab her back before her 3rd jab connects(LOL) and Falco's jab does more damage than ZSS' jabs(LOLOL). If Falco double jabs over and over when ZSS is in her shield all she can do is roll away or spot dodge. Plus Falco has a chain grab on her from 0 to 43 and ZSS has more trouble killing than Falco does. I don't know what Nick Riddle thinks this match up is, but I'm guessing he probably thinks it's just as bad.

Confused as to why you think Snake is only 50-50 when a few months ago you were quite sure Falco had the advantage

Snake kills so early!

I disagree with Pikachu, I think it's closer to 60:40. We're disadvantaged, but one grab from Falco puts Pikachu at 50%+. With that percent we're able to platform camp Pikachu enough to remove their chaingrab. And I personally think that without their chaingrab the matchup would be in OUR favour, however they do have it. I just think that we have the tools to avoid it, and then nullify it.

Once we have that 50% on them if they wait for the chaingrab they're just killing the timer.

Also, if we're able to get the first kill in this matchup. Suddenly Falco has an advantage, Pikachu can't simply wait for that grab, and Falco can play the game HE wants to. The cycle repeats with 1 grab on our side equating to the removal of theirs.

For the first 20% (maybe 21%?) or so, we can camp near an edge too, without the need for the platforms. With this in mind, if the Pikachu is doing what they usually do and merely ducking lasers, we have run off lasers to rack up damage. If they approach, our job of getting that grab to remove their chaingrab becomes a little easier.

Obviously the matchup isn't all about who gets the first grab though, once the grab game becomes less important, I do think Falco has the upperhand. We keep Pikachu out fairly well IMO. Jabs just feel like they Pikachu's bane, and I'm almost certain ftilt is fairly safe on shield here as well. Including Pikachu's slightly lower weight class kills will come a little earlier than usual if the opportunity is there (BDacus anyone?)

Apart from that, I'm confident that our bair/nair/uair is superior to Pikachu's aerial game. Specifically in range and power, and the setups that come from airdodged uairs.

Maybe I'm crazy, but I think the matchup is overrated.

Pikachu's the only one I disagree with here, and everything else is solid.

You might be right, I'm basing it heavily off the last time I played the Pikachu player Z. Atm my record vs. him with Falco is 2-1. I have gotten better at the match up though and I haven't played him in like a year lol. SK92 probably knows that match up better than me though, since he plays Z more often than I do

 

[Chuee]

The reason Falco is 65-35 vs Ness and Lucas is because he can grab release up smash them regardless of ground release or air release and grabbing both of these characters as Falco isn't very hard.

lolwut?
Neither of them are that easy to grab lol. Not the best at avoiding grabs but certainly not really easy.
All that means is that you can kill us from a grab WOOHOO.
I mean really, if you wanted a good reason for Ness being 65-35 you could've at least said he loses his stock if you get the CG ;_;
However you can't say that for Lucas.

 

[swordsaint]

Call me nuts, but I didn't think Falco could do anything worthwhile out of grab release on those two. Is the timing strict or something?

 

[Chuee]

Lucas has 10 frames of lag from GR, Falco's Usmash hits on frame 8. I don't know his dash frames or anything but it might be possible but the timing would be really strict.

 

[swordsaint]

Lol, I just tested it out. I think we can. Shows what I know. (Though it's mostly because I believed another Ness main and never tried it...>_>)

I think we could walking chaingrab release Ness too, but idk. Seems tight.

 

[DEHF]

lolwut?
Neither of them are that easy to grab lol. Not the best at avoiding grabs but certainly not really easy.
All that means is that you can kill us from a grab WOOHOO.
I mean really, if you wanted a good reason for Ness being 65-35 you could've at least said he loses his stock if you get the CG ;_;
However you can't say that for Lucas.

I never said they were easy to grab, I said they weren't very hard to grab. Falco getting a kill from a grab means a lot, especially when he has one of the best grab games in brawl.

@Swordsaint I don't think the grab release chain grab works, but I'm not entirely sure. If it doesn't we get a really good mix up game on Ness/Lucas out of grab release regardless.

 

[Chuee]

Tons of other characters get free kill moves from grabs.
Sheik gets a Usmash on MK from air release.
Yoshi gets a Usmash on MK.
etc.
Getting a kill from a grab is nothing special and it's definitely not MU breaking.

 

[swordsaint]

Chuee - you don't quite understand. Falco's damage racking abilities are amazing, but his ability to land the kill move isn't quite as amazing. When Falco has a guaranteed kill, ooh baby! It's why Falco mains are perfecting the Bdacus. We need more kill options.

DEHF - it probably doesn't work, but it's just a small observation I made that MIGHT be possible if you continually buffer the walk > regrab at the furthest possible range. Unfortunately have no one to test it on, but I don't think it'd be worth doing even if it were possible.

 

[Chuee]

Killing from a grab is not MU breaking at all.
Ness can get a kill from a grab on almost half the cast on around the same % as Falco can get on from this.
Oh, and I will seriously lol if grab release to Usmash isn't guarenteed.

 

[DEHF]

Tons of other characters get free kill moves from grabs.
Sheik gets a Usmash on MK from air release.
Yoshi gets a Usmash on MK.
etc.
Getting a kill from a grab is nothing special and it's definitely not MU breaking.

Yes it is, if Sheik or Yoshi didn't have a grab release u smash on MK the match up would be worse for them.

 

[swordsaint]

Yes, but Ness has so many other flaws that are the drawback for his character.

And the other thing is, the longer is takes Falco to kill, the more time you have to catch up, which is why ANY kill set up is good.

I don't think Larry meant that the only reason it's such a good matchup is because of the kill set up anywho, it's just one factor.

 

[Flayl]

Bowser is worse against Falco than Ike? Really?

 

[Chuee]

Yes it is, if Sheik or Yoshi didn't have a grab release u smash on MK the match up would be worse for them.

Both them have trouble grabbing MK anyways.
I don't how in the world getting a kill from a grab is MU breaking.
Especially if that kill move doesn't even KO below 100%.

Yes, but Ness has so many other flaws that are the drawback for his character.
Ness doesn't get any MU boost on light characters because he can bthrow at 120% for a kill.

And the other thing is, the longer is takes Falco to kill, the more time you have to catch up, which is why ANY kill set up is good.
True, but getting a grab requires a read from Falco seeing as how you can't shielgrab any of my moves. Falco gets Usmashes from reads.

I don't think Larry meant that the only reason it's such a good matchup is because of the kill set up anywho, it's just one factor.
I would love for him to name some, because getting a kill from a grab is nowhere near MU breaking. Maybe you as a Falco main find it great that you don't have to work as hard for the kill, but it's incredibly silly to think a MU becomes a hard counter just because you can get a kill move if you get a grab at 110%.

 

[Razek]

Hrnut on razeks account

So dehf what do you think of the pika/falco match...and for the ics match my friend thinks its even or in falco's favor because falco can keep them out so well lol i don't know if i completely agree with that but i think its very much doable if you can get a separation

I honestly dont believe pika/falco is 35:65 because without the Chaingrab you pretty much **** him lol

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

About the grab releases on Ness/Lucas. We really have nothing on them. Dash grab takes 11 frames to come out. I can say with much confidence that walk release CG is impossible as well from those releases. It takes 3 frames for characters to crouch. Falco has to walk a very large distance in only 4 frames before grab would come out. By the time you would probably take one step, the time frame would be over with.

The same with Usmash. Unless you bdacus out of the release, usmash will not work. Dashing has frames of start up as well. Add that in to Usmash coming out and they will merely PS the attack. The only attacks that I know of that work are shine and ftilt. Maybe jab as well. You could probably catch someone offguard with a grab or usmash if they were slow at shielding/dodging, but they can evade it.

Edit: I woud like to stress the notion of dash attack. It hits on frame 4. That would probably work a lot better than anything else.

 

[swordsaint]

That's exactly what I thought before Xeylode. Except I'm confident that you can dash attack him as well.

 

[Razek]

what percentage does dash attack kill at if its fresh?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I am holding off judgement of the pikachu/falco match-up. I really think it will be lower in the future. Grabs are difficult to get in matches. And Pikachu really does not have many grab set-ups. The best one I heard was Fair -> grab lol I thought it was a good set-up, but you can DI out of this stuff and evade it.

That's exactly what I thought before Xeylode. Except I'm confident that you can dash attack him as well.

Which means you can lead into a gatling combo. However, I forget how high we can gattle them for boths hits to connect.

what percentage does dash attack kill at if its fresh?

LOL With bad DI, maybe 150% against low weights. 200% with good DI and even higher against those with higher weights. Either way, not a reliable kill method against lucas/ness unless you really got them that high in percents.