Falco Stage Discussion ~ Week 7/8: Pokemon Stadium 2 and Rainbow Cruise

[Juno McGrath]

norfair now.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Delfino is too complicated to give an accurate description of I think. Way too many scenarios and situations to cover.

In short I would say that any section that is flat abuse like FD. Flying section abuse like a cross between BF/Halberd.

Any section with divets or any highs and lows just camp.

 

[Limeee]

norfair is just flatout a bad stage for us, others can easily find ways around our camping and the platforms give us little room to chaingrab.

IMO i say 3/10

 

[Vlade]

I've decided to necro this thread to promote some activity on the falco boards

Please post your thoughts on brinstar

 

[-LzR-]

I am not a Falco player, but I play against a Falco often. This stage is not that bad as people say. It still sucks. Chain grab goes nuts in the weird ground of this stage. There is not much room to laser and you gotta sweetspot the ledge with sideB or you fall down into lava or die. The opponents can camp behind the pillars which will absorb the lasers. It's hard to use sideB well here making Falco's getaway game poor. You also don't get those dair spike kills thanks to the lave.

Some pros exist too:
Small blastzones allow Falco to kill earlier, not really a pro, since so does your opponent.
You will not be gimped so much because lava can save you.
You can pillar someone if you use the lava to your advantage.

That is all I can think of, not a good stage for Falco.
For ratio: 3/10

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

CG might be messed up, but spiking after the CG (if you can get it or the percentage) makes tech chasing many times easier. The split in the stage helps with following rolls. Falco once again has great coverage over his enemy anywhere when they are on platforms. FH Bair covers pretty much the whole platform anywhere on the stage.

You do not really have need of camping when the small confines of the stage force you into close quarters. I would use that as an alternative to projectile camping. Pull a trick out from CF by camping in place and baiting. Falco still has uses for phantasm for reaching back to the stage and such. This stage does not have to be so killer, it merely requires an alteration in playstyle, something I feel most people are not accustomed too yet.

 

[DEHF]

Stage weakens Falco's laser camping game with the strange pillar at the sides that the opponent can hide behind. The stage being really small and the non-flat surface takes away his ability to IAP or even use side b as an attack at all.

You have to be very precise when using your side b on this stage, if you overshoot your side b you could go through the stage and die. The lava and platforms makes this not as bad, plus there are platforms that add your recovery options.

One of the things that this stage does for Falco that no other stage does is strengthen his offstage game. If there is lava and your opponent is offstage you can be more risky without having fear that you'll lose a stock if you make a mistake. If someone wants to counter pick you here that loves to play offstage a lot, it may not be a bad idea to let them take you there (unless they're MK :D).

 

[teluoborg]

Bad points :
-impossible to use phantasm,
-CG limited,
-main platform allows sharking and screws recovery (sweetspot or die)
-laser are blocked by the pillars.

Good points :
-small stage means they can't run away from your close quarter game, which is really good
-like DEHF said lava is more an ally than an enemy : it saves you offstage and since you can jump crazy high it gives you a very good Uair/Bair setup,
-platform setup is a lot like BF.

Stuff :
-it gets a whole lot easier to space on Brinstar if you consider the main platforms as 3 distinct platforms "ground-bubbles-ground" pattern.
-FFing on slanted ground will make you slide. It's more noticable on the far right slant.
-Bubbles and pillars extend you hitboxes by giving you extra hitlag,

All in all I don't think Brinstar is that bad for Falco (but maybe that's just because lasers/phantasms aren't a big part of my playstyle), it's just that 1-MK/Snake ***** you there and 2-Falco's got a whole lot of better stages to CP.

I'd give a 5-6/10

 

[M@v]

Can I just say ban this at all costs(unless they are icies)?


But seriously i'll contribute l8er.

 

[erick gm14]

ban.. if u dont ban this... well.. idk whats ticking in your head then.. lol jp. i dispise this stage. almost everycharacter ***** falco here or gets a better advantage than he does.
pro's
-falco can grab the ledge, let go, jump under the stage, firebird and grab the opposite ledge all under the stage.
-fsmash is pretty **** on the pillar things since the hit box is big plus the extra lag from hitting it prolongs the attack i believe.
-phantasming to another platform or the one far across seems to be a safe get away since i dont think i ever gotten punished from it 1vs1.
cons
-small stage, falco dies way too fast
-lasers are practically useless because anyone with a brain can hide behind the pillar thing.
-CGing is almost impossible the egg things to the right make it so falco cant walk (or any character) and regrab someone. only good spot to CG is the bottom left.
-acid hits falco a lot more at low % since hes a fast faller i think.


falco really has to adjust and switch up his playstyle woth no lasers and CGing. what makes falco top tier is pretty much useless in this stage. id ban it.

 

[ksizl4life]

This stage has no lava

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

This stage has no lava

Is this the part where you tell us it is actually acid or something else that is harmful, but not lava?

\I have been thinking about camping with lasers. Even if someone does it behind the pillars, if you do it long enough, the harmful stage substance will force you onto the platforms eventually. Lasering is useful again!

 

[ksizl4life]

its acid =D

 

[erick gm14]

i said acid i think if ur refering to me x( whats the next stage? my fav stage is delfino. has it been discussed?

 

[Denzi]

Ugh, I hate Delfino. It gets my vote.

 

[erick gm14]

waaaaat?? cmon denzi, its real good for camping but vs mk and kirby and other quick or floaty characters , falco doesnt cut it.

 

[Denzi]

-Phantasms to the ledge- -goes through the stage-

That's a pain, and the major reason I dislike the stage.

 

[teluoborg]

its acid =D

It's lava, and nobody cares about its pH.


Delfino has already been discussed, it's in the OP.
For next I suggest either YI or Lylat.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

-Phantasms to the ledge- -goes through the stage-
That's a pain, and the major reason I dislike the stage.

Denzi merely hates having to make phantasm work correctly. On delfino, we can no longer spam it mindlessly (Putting words into his mouth) Besides, delfino was already discussed earlier. In this thread at any rate.

Now, I have a question for all of you that I cannot test out myself. I have heard that brinstar pillars and bubbles will decay your attack gauge. Can anyone agree if this is true or not? If it is, then we can make sure our Bair is almost never staled. Lasers count as our attack gauge and hitting them against the pillars while pseudo-camping with SHL/SHDL basically refreshes our entire moveset.

 

[GameStation aka C4?!]

I personally Love playing on Brinstar. Cant stand Rainbow, but Brinstar I can play and not get frustrated

 

[Viperdev]

Denzi merely hates having to make phantasm work correctly. On delfino, we can no longer spam it mindlessly (Putting words into his mouth) Besides, delfino was already discussed earlier. In this thread at any rate.

Now, I have a question for all of you that I cannot test out myself. I have heard that brinstar pillars and bubbles will decay your attack gauge. Can anyone agree if this is true or not? If it is, then we can make sure our Bair is almost never staled. Lasers count as our attack gauge and hitting them against the pillars while pseudo-camping with SHL/SHDL basically refreshes our entire moveset.

Yea it does, if a hitbox hits any hurtbox at all it will decrease its attack power that includes the statues in castle siege and even the balloon on smashville.

 

[-DR3W-]

Brinstar...

PRO: Small stage, easy kill. High jumps means you can get around pretty easily.
CON: Falco's phantasm is much more risky. His laser game is partially cut out because of that pillar. His chaingrabs are much less efficient, if possible at all, because of the rigid terrain.

Don't know too much about it, but it's not terrible if you're good at controlling and know Brinstar's shinanegans.

 

[Vlade]

Denzi merely hates having to make phantasm work correctly. On delfino, we can no longer spam it mindlessly (Putting words into his mouth) Besides, delfino was already discussed earlier. In this thread at any rate.

Now, I have a question for all of you that I cannot test out myself. I have heard that brinstar pillars and bubbles will decay your attack gauge. Can anyone agree if this is true or not? If it is, then we can make sure our Bair is almost never staled. Lasers count as our attack gauge and hitting them against the pillars while pseudo-camping with SHL/SHDL basically refreshes our entire moveset.

Yeah that is correct, I'm pretty certain that any move that makes contact will stale, even if it's on stage objects like the smashville balloon.

 

[-DR3W-]

Yeah that is correct, I'm pretty certain that any move that makes contact will stale, even if it's on stage objects like the smashville balloon.

No, Smashville balloon actually refreshes moves...

 

[Viperdev]

No, Smashville balloon actually refreshes moves...

He's saying that it stales the move that hits it which it does.

 

[-DR3W-]

He's saying that it stales the move that hits it which it does.

You sure? I recall Xyro reporting that the balloon made moves fresh, not stale them out.

 

[Viperdev]

You sure? I recall Xyro reporting that the balloon made moves fresh, not stale them out.

It refreshes all of the moves except the one used to hit it, its the same for everything not just the balloon.

 

[Vlade]

No, Smashville balloon actually refreshes moves...

I think you've got things mixed up. Basically using an attack over and over will cause that move to decay/stale/whateveryouwanttocallit.

Because of that, other moves which have already staled will move down the 'staling' queue, hence they are 'refreshed'. The move that you use on the brinstar pillars or SV balloon stales, which causes the moves that are already in the staling queue to be refreshed.

 

[-DR3W-]

I think you've got things mixed up. Basically using an attack over and over will cause that move to decay/stale/whateveryouwanttocallit.

Because of that, other moves which have already staled will move down the 'staling' queue, hence they are 'refreshed'. The move that you use on the brinstar pillars or SV balloon stales, which causes the moves that are already in the staling queue to be refreshed.

Oh wow, something as simple as that I had mixed up.
Thanks.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Alright, well, then something else I can say for Brinstar is that whenever your opponent dies and you are simply waiting there, double jab cancel those pillars to refresh your moveset for the next stock. You could probably get off 2 double jab cancels which will take up 4 of the 9 slots in your attack gauge.

 

[Vlade]

Alright, well, then something else I can say for Brinstar is that whenever your opponent dies and you are simply waiting there, double jab cancel those pillars to refresh your moveset for the next stock. You could probably get off 2 double jab cancels which will take up 4 of the 9 slots in your attack gauge.

Judging from this post is it true that each jab counts as one move in the staling queue? What about the final rapid jab?

 

[clowsui]

Each hit of the rapid jab adds one to staling queue. Each jab counts for one in the staling queue

 

[teluoborg]

Only if you mash the A button. If you hold it it'll only count as one move.

Don't ask.

 

[Kasper!]

****ing hell man i hate brinstar now, i wanted to give it a little bitty chance

but after playing against anaky NEVER AGAIN!!!!

I WAS PRACTICALLY WOOPING DA ***** ALL OVER DAT JOINT

FALCO =

BEGGING FOR A RECOVERY

 

[Vlade]

I decided to kill 2 birds with 1 stone this round, so please discuss Lylat Cruise and Pokemon Stadium 1!

 

[Zephyros]

I find pokemon stadium 1 to be a great falco stage. The start of the match often also for a free 7% damage or so on an unsuspecting opponent with an immediate aerial phantasm (iap). The wideness of the level allows for great laser camping and spacing using iap, additionally, this is a rather chaingrab friendly level. The platforms are reachable with either utilt or upsmash to boot.

The transformations also allow for some fun times. The tree of the fire transformation allows for either an aaa jab lock , or a few extra hits on a chaingrab. The rock transformation provides a hiding hole where you can utilt, uair, or usmash an incoming opponent (assuming their dair doesn't out prioritize you).

I'm not overly fond of the windmill transformation, as it really tends to cut down on the effectiveness of my laser game, and people tech off of the windmill blades, saving themselves from what could have been a killing blow. About the only other thing i dislike about this level is that it is somewhat easily to get shinespiked under the stage lip by fox.

I phantasm, Lylat cruise tilts, i die. Don't like that stage at all.

 

[Micklem]

I phantasm, Lylat cruise tilts, i die. Don't like that stage at all.

^^ This
100x This

The tilting also seriously screws with falco's laser game, his IAPs, and sometimes the chaingrab (although the spike offstage at the end is often more potent due to the threat of stage tilting on the opponent's recovery). The platforms are not especially good for falco, but not particularly problematic since his platform-game is fairly solid regardless.

The main problem is the suicides - or the threat of them. Phantasm-cancelling only when high and firebirding when low is the safest way to go on paper... but after a couple of repeats any good opponent will be ****** you for being predictable.

All in all it's not such a bad stage (compared to brinstar and rainbow cruise) but I'd say it makes a fair counterpick for your opponent.

 

[Luxor]

What about the final rapid jab?

IIRC that's a windbox.

 

[hippiedude92]

ps1 = some walls for wall infinites

also when the stage is transforming, it can break ic's cgs

also ps1 is sometimes un safe to recover because of this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vflr3Qj2tB4&feature=mfu_in_order&playnext=1&videos=4ic0z6drgAk

hate lylat, can't iap correctly and recover correctly

 

[-DR3W-]

LYLAT CRUISE

Pros: You can press down on the D-pad to get a little message from the StarFox/StarWolf cast. For real though, the boundaries are pretty big (this could be good or bad, but makes surviving horizontally and above easier)

Cons: Requires extremely precise recovery if you don't want to get punished. Aiming firebird (up-b) is particuarly difficult because of the movement. The stage's movement also hurts phantasm/laser camping in general. On top of it all, you can hardly chaingrab.

Stage Behavior: The stage sways, which hurts a lot of Falco's vital techniques. Camping, chaingrabbing, and recovering are made harder by the movement and phantasm is much more punishable.

Rating: 4/10. Not the worst but not the best. Wouldn't recommend it for counterpicking, though.

Counterpicks: Ice Climbers, Marth

Bans: Zero Suit Samus, Snake, Meta Knight

If you find yourself on this stage switch to MK just be really careful and don't expect your usual Falco habits and strategies to function properly.