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Falco Matchup #16: Ike
- Thread starter -DR3W-
- Start date
M@v
Subarashii!
Awww that's low.
Anyway, I got a bunch of ike experience. 2 Ikes in my crew; one who's practiced with San quite a few times.
Also played the man himself....and lost as well
. Would of taken it to game 3 if I didn't screw up a DACUS >.<
I'm at work though, so writeup later!
I feel the MU is a +1 for Falco. Ike actually has a bunch of stuff against falco.
Anyway, I got a bunch of ike experience. 2 Ikes in my crew; one who's practiced with San quite a few times.
Also played the man himself....and lost as well
. Would of taken it to game 3 if I didn't screw up a DACUS >.<I'm at work though, so writeup later!
I feel the MU is a +1 for Falco. Ike actually has a bunch of stuff against falco.
M@v
Subarashii!
Oh yeah I like to refer to this mu as "Jab wars"
MARLX
Smash Journeyman
This mu must be at least 70-30 in falco's favor.All falco has to do is first cg to spike off the stage.Ike lives falco just has to camp because all the lasers stop ike instantly.Up close jab ike you're fine, also mix it up with grabs.Also take ike off stage stay above him you dair him or foot stool jump him and take the ledge.Avoid getting hit by his jabs because they are brutal...
M@v
Subarashii!
......I'm going to restrain myself because I'm on mobile. You've obviously never played any ikes that have the slightest idea what they are doing.
Bloodcross
Smash Champion
I really wanted to make this thread in a trolly matter. I was waiting for the Luigi thread to be put up then I'd jump on Ike.
I no longer have a reason to be here...
Oh and I just go Snake lolololololol
I no longer have a reason to be here...
Oh and I just go Snake lolololololol
DJ Arcatek
Smash Champion
There is no way this matchup is 70-30 Falco lol. Play San or Ryo then come back and say that.
I'd say it's 55:45/60:40
I'd say it's 55:45/60:40
EaszyPeaszy
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2010
- Messages
- 11
-sigh- Afk bbl etc.
Can I ignore him now?
Anyway, I've thought a lot about this match-up since this morning because it really does interest me. Here's what I've concluded.
First off, let's look at Ike. He's got a big *** sword that allows him a lot of range. He is also really heavy and hits very hard. This sounds very reminescint of two particular match-ups that Falco sees more often and should really know. Ike is a hybrid of both Meta Knight and Snake. Now let's look at what that means for Falco in this match-up.
Since Ike is like Meta Knight, you need to win on your neutral stage. If you can take game one, things will be a lot easier. If not, then you should ban Rainbow Cruise or Brinstar (whichever you are least comfortable on) and brace for the other and Ike's MK-like shenanigans. If you feel the Ike player is less adventurous and afraid to utilize counterpicks to their fullest, then he'll probably be looking to CP Delphino (beware of sharking Ikes) or Frigate.
When looking for a stage to take Ike to, whether it be stage-striking or a CP, you should be extrememly careful, as MK is very good on stages mentioned above, but he can also hold his ground on flat stages such as FD or SV due to his Snake-like qualities. It's best to take him to somewhere inbetween that he can't really abuse, such as Yoshi's Island or Battlefield.
When playing the match-up, you have to be extremely careful not to get gimped as every stock is going to be extremely important. He is like Snake in his potential to live for a long time and like MK in his ability to avoid gimps. On stage, we are able to do fairly well for ourselves with lasers and our boxing game, but getting hit really hurts. He has MK's combo ability and Snake's damage, not cool.
All-in-all, the match-up is not unwinnable, but it is certainly one of Falco's harder ones. This is definitely one you will lose if you don't know it, even if it's not as bad as Pika or ICs. The match-up ratio is easy to figure out though. As a MK/Snake hybrid, the Ike MU ratio is the average between the two. I know there are dissenters out there, but I feel MK - Falco is 40-60. Many others will say 45-55 and a few deluded players will say it's 50-50, but for the purpose of my conclusion, I'm using 40-60 as the ratio. Snake, however, is a slight Falco advantage, 55-45. The average of the two means that the Ike match-up is 47.5-52.5 in Ike's favor.
47.5-52.5 Ike's Favor
Any questions or criticism are welcome, but please take into account that I've already addressed that I know there are people with differing opinions on the MK match-up. I want to make sure we get this one right as there are many people who don't know it.
Bloodcross
Smash Champion
Ike is like Metaknight...
lol
But I do agree that Ike has a large advantage over Falco...
well, the tall and black Ikes have adv over Falco.
lol
But I do agree that Ike has a large advantage over Falco...
well, the tall and black Ikes have adv over Falco.
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2008
- Messages
- 19,346
I have no idea what makes a match-up worth discussing to anyone anymore lol Luigi/Sheik, dead.
Lasers shut Ike down relatively well and he doesn't really have much of an answer to them other than simply powershielding. Space your lasers well so you don't end up in jab range when he powershields those lasers. We do have a longer jab/ftilt, so abuse that to beat out his jab range. If you get caught in it.. I'm not sure the specifics, but you can get out.
Whenever you can, DI in a way that puts you towards the corners (even at low percents, don't go straight up or straight horizontal). Putting yourself above ike after a hit puts you in range for him to try to bait airdodges and beat them out. The same with trying to land near him, his huge range can beat out your attempts to use aerials, and he can once again cover airdodge to the ground. The best bet is to attempt to come in from the horizontal where ike cannot cover those options nearly as well. If you use premature methods you'll obviously get hit by something like phantasm into an usmash/nair or something like that. Just pay attention to what Ike is doing and choose the best area to get back to the stage.
Other than that, Ike will have his own issues getting back to the stage, so just apply regular juggling tactics. You can prevent him from camping the ledge if he uses UpB too high above the stage by using OoS methods. For example, if you can get just inside his max range of his sword, you can OoS Bair or OoS Usmash him and trade with UpB.
Ike's range make's needless rushing punished and his oomph will punish Falco hard. With a few of those Falco's stock can quickly disappear. In this sense, it can even the match-up. But honestly, Ike still doesn't have much on trying to catch Falco very well, and with patient play it's hard for Ike to ever get a kill on you. You can live to percents nearly as high as Ike will merely because he cannot get a decent hit on you if you don't do anything dumb (like trying to airdodge past him).
Also, bthrow -> dash attack is a legit combo I believe at some percents, while it works better offstage if I recall. So, make sure you DI that dash attack right or you might lose a stock earlier than you should have.
I'm not sure how to place this match-up, but it's honestly no worse than even if you make enough mistakes. But it can be pretty brutal for Ike.
+0 to +2 or by the old standards I think that fits with 50-50 -> 65-35 falco.
Lasers shut Ike down relatively well and he doesn't really have much of an answer to them other than simply powershielding. Space your lasers well so you don't end up in jab range when he powershields those lasers. We do have a longer jab/ftilt, so abuse that to beat out his jab range. If you get caught in it.. I'm not sure the specifics, but you can get out.
Whenever you can, DI in a way that puts you towards the corners (even at low percents, don't go straight up or straight horizontal). Putting yourself above ike after a hit puts you in range for him to try to bait airdodges and beat them out. The same with trying to land near him, his huge range can beat out your attempts to use aerials, and he can once again cover airdodge to the ground. The best bet is to attempt to come in from the horizontal where ike cannot cover those options nearly as well. If you use premature methods you'll obviously get hit by something like phantasm into an usmash/nair or something like that. Just pay attention to what Ike is doing and choose the best area to get back to the stage.
Other than that, Ike will have his own issues getting back to the stage, so just apply regular juggling tactics. You can prevent him from camping the ledge if he uses UpB too high above the stage by using OoS methods. For example, if you can get just inside his max range of his sword, you can OoS Bair or OoS Usmash him and trade with UpB.
Ike's range make's needless rushing punished and his oomph will punish Falco hard. With a few of those Falco's stock can quickly disappear. In this sense, it can even the match-up. But honestly, Ike still doesn't have much on trying to catch Falco very well, and with patient play it's hard for Ike to ever get a kill on you. You can live to percents nearly as high as Ike will merely because he cannot get a decent hit on you if you don't do anything dumb (like trying to airdodge past him).
Also, bthrow -> dash attack is a legit combo I believe at some percents, while it works better offstage if I recall. So, make sure you DI that dash attack right or you might lose a stock earlier than you should have.
I'm not sure how to place this match-up, but it's honestly no worse than even if you make enough mistakes. But it can be pretty brutal for Ike.
+0 to +2 or by the old standards I think that fits with 50-50 -> 65-35 falco.
M@v
Subarashii!
There's no way Ike has an advantage. Pretty sure the Ike boards will agree with me too. But its not that bad for ike either.
Host Change
Smash Ace
Don't phantasm predictably or it's a free smash and maybe a stock for Ike.
Last night when I was playing Brawl, someone in my crew was playing a lot of Ike. (Not sure how much practice my buddy had with him, but he wasn't the best or anything.) I managed to beat him the majority of the time with Falco. What I noticed was the Jab, Nair, and of course the lasers were really good for building damage. I would use the Bair to punish sometimes.
Last night when I was playing Brawl, someone in my crew was playing a lot of Ike. (Not sure how much practice my buddy had with him, but he wasn't the best or anything.) I managed to beat him the majority of the time with Falco. What I noticed was the Jab, Nair, and of course the lasers were really good for building damage. I would use the Bair to punish sometimes.
*facepalm* Certainly not 70% in Falco's favor. Have you ever played a decent Ike? Also I would be careful when you go for the spike.
Just wondering, did you play Billy's Ike in friendlies last saturday?
1PokeMastr
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2009
- Messages
- 2,251
I guess I'll do a write up for this as my hair drys, and I listen to Kat's playlist, haha.
Since I main both of these characters, I know it from both sides of the the MU, so, it will help.
First off, camping really takes a toll on Ike, especially if you fire a laser at full short hop height and one as a silent laser(Timing is tricky, takes practice), now, any Ike main would try to PS the lasers or just dodge them, it's tricky with air dodges, but, you can dodge them all.
Now, even though Ike's approaches are pretty slow and obvious, such as a Double jump fast fell delayed Fairs to bait our shield drop, or a Nair done the same way, as well as a short hop approach, if Ike spaces perfectly, or well, he'll be out of our grab range, making trying to shield grab difficult, or rather to punish on block with those two approaches.
Now, getting close to Ike for a grab isn't difficult at all, he has no projectile and is forced to approach quite a bit. that won't stop them from playing defensive, anyway.
If you get a grab, go for the CG haha, it's quick damage and gets him off stage, and goes to 53% on him if I recall correctly, I try to end it with an F-tilt(Aimed Up), Bair, or Nair, to keep your Dair fresh, obviously. Or if you end it early, you can get a Stutter step f-smash, just for Damage.
Now, for when Ike is recovering, try to time the ledge hog get up gimp that everyone can do( It can be done even if you're at 0% it's just annoying to do), Implying that that he uses aether to recover, if he uses Quick Draw, shot him with a laser while he's far away, it kind of screws him over if he doesn't have a second jump. Or, try to jump into the way of quick draw, it gimps him, but, you risk damage.
If you can time it right, you can spike him out of quick and aether.
When you're recovering, it is most important that you mix it up, if he predicts your phantasm, you'll be eating one of his smashes, or a tilt, so remember to mix it up, no one wants to be hit by one of those deadly smashes, haha.
If he jabs you Di away from him, or don't di at all, it saves you from getting Jabbed 4 times and your damage going up.
Anyway. B-throw - DA is not a legit combo, Di down or up and tech, or PS it, haha.
For counter picking Ike, I tend to prefer to take them to Ps1, SV and if you know how to use it, Rainbow, it screws Ike up pretty badly, same as Lylat(If you know how to use it) get rid of battle field against him, it's his best stage.
If anyone has any issues with this, or would like to discuss with me, feel free ^-^
I would put this at 55:45 it's pretty tough to be honest, though, as an Ike main too, I have no Issue with Falco, it isn't hard for Ike.
Since I main both of these characters, I know it from both sides of the the MU, so, it will help.
First off, camping really takes a toll on Ike, especially if you fire a laser at full short hop height and one as a silent laser(Timing is tricky, takes practice), now, any Ike main would try to PS the lasers or just dodge them, it's tricky with air dodges, but, you can dodge them all.
Now, even though Ike's approaches are pretty slow and obvious, such as a Double jump fast fell delayed Fairs to bait our shield drop, or a Nair done the same way, as well as a short hop approach, if Ike spaces perfectly, or well, he'll be out of our grab range, making trying to shield grab difficult, or rather to punish on block with those two approaches.
Now, getting close to Ike for a grab isn't difficult at all, he has no projectile and is forced to approach quite a bit. that won't stop them from playing defensive, anyway.
If you get a grab, go for the CG haha, it's quick damage and gets him off stage, and goes to 53% on him if I recall correctly, I try to end it with an F-tilt(Aimed Up), Bair, or Nair, to keep your Dair fresh, obviously. Or if you end it early, you can get a Stutter step f-smash, just for Damage.
Now, for when Ike is recovering, try to time the ledge hog get up gimp that everyone can do( It can be done even if you're at 0% it's just annoying to do), Implying that that he uses aether to recover, if he uses Quick Draw, shot him with a laser while he's far away, it kind of screws him over if he doesn't have a second jump. Or, try to jump into the way of quick draw, it gimps him, but, you risk damage.
If you can time it right, you can spike him out of quick and aether.
When you're recovering, it is most important that you mix it up, if he predicts your phantasm, you'll be eating one of his smashes, or a tilt, so remember to mix it up, no one wants to be hit by one of those deadly smashes, haha.
If he jabs you Di away from him, or don't di at all, it saves you from getting Jabbed 4 times and your damage going up.
Anyway. B-throw - DA is not a legit combo, Di down or up and tech, or PS it, haha.
For counter picking Ike, I tend to prefer to take them to Ps1, SV and if you know how to use it, Rainbow, it screws Ike up pretty badly, same as Lylat(If you know how to use it) get rid of battle field against him, it's his best stage.
If anyone has any issues with this, or would like to discuss with me, feel free ^-^
I would put this at 55:45 it's pretty tough to be honest, though, as an Ike main too, I have no Issue with Falco, it isn't hard for Ike.
The only time I played it, I beat it.
I was being sarcastic, lol. Please don't take anyone who says Ike beats Falco seriously. We don't destroy him, but we certainly have the advantage.
DellSmashman
Smash Cadet
70-30 Falco? Lolwut, it's not that bad.
Agreed with everyone else with 55-45/60-40 though. Hell, even San thinks it's even.
Agreed with everyone else with 55-45/60-40 though. Hell, even San thinks it's even.
MARLX
Smash Journeyman
After seeing ryu vs dj jack i see how it isn't 70-30. I agree to at least 60-40 in falco's favor.
Ussi
Smash Legend
DI up when yo are thrown.
Jab can cancel falco's side B
Ike will prob CP lylat or should. Otherwise just cp BF/ps1
Yoshi's is a good stage to take Ike, and FD/SV too.
Jab can cancel falco's side B
Ike will prob CP lylat or should. Otherwise just cp BF/ps1
Yoshi's is a good stage to take Ike, and FD/SV too.
MARLX
Smash Journeyman
Cp battle feild would be stupid because thats falcos best stage. The rest are horrible for falco. Also fd is amazing for falco that would be a horrible idea to take falco there if you're ike.
Ussi
Smash Legend
BF is almost every character's favorite stage
If it ain't SV its BF
If it ain't SV its BF
DJ Arcatek
Smash Champion
I wouldn't say BF is Falco's BEST stage, but it's probably 2nd or 3rd definitely.
1PokeMastr
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2009
- Messages
- 2,251
Battle Field? Falco's best stage? There's almost no room to camp.
Especially if your Falco isn't very good up close.
Yoshi's ruins our phantasm, I try to stay away.
Especially if your Falco isn't very good up close.
Yoshi's ruins our phantasm, I try to stay away.
M@v
Subarashii!
Battlefield is Falco's best stage in a lot of mus, but not all. For the rest, FD is likely his best stage.
Vs characters good at gimping, Falco's better going to battlefield so he has 4 ways to recover(Ledge, floor, 1st platform, highest platform) compared to 2 on FD(ledge or the stage).
I wish I had more Falco vs ike videos for all the times I play this mu :/
Should have time to do the writeup today.
Vs characters good at gimping, Falco's better going to battlefield so he has 4 ways to recover(Ledge, floor, 1st platform, highest platform) compared to 2 on FD(ledge or the stage).
I wish I had more Falco vs ike videos for all the times I play this mu :/
Should have time to do the writeup today.
Host Change
Smash Ace
I thought Falco had the advantage anyway, but I was just wondering if you played him. I lost to his Ike, but I learned several things from that game of friendlies which was really good since it was my first tournament.
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2008
- Messages
- 19,346
Every move in the game has the potential to cancel falco's phantasm and at any point along it's animation. You just have to make sure your hitbox appears on the exact frame falco happens to be there or else he's else where the following frame. So any long lasting and/or large hitboxes simply happen to be the best at catching him out of it such as Nair for most characters.
BF/SV/FD are really interchangeable.
Bloodcross
Smash Champion
Look, just learn to have crazy SDI on Ike's Jab and you're all set.
Bloodcross
Smash Champion
It's stupid hard.
I just SDI up and Dair (well I don't because I always forget to SDI in tournament... but yeah).
I just SDI up and Dair (well I don't because I always forget to SDI in tournament... but yeah).
Yuck, that's one of IKE'S best stages in the match-up, not Falco.
Avoid BF and YI. That's where Ike wants to be.
M@v
Subarashii!
I like to be on bf too. I don't mind ike there. I DO mind ike on delfino.
DJ Arcatek
Smash Champion
It's pretty hard to SDI Ike's jab. You have to SDI Up and diagonally away or some ****. I could never successfully SDI out and punish though.
Plus, Yoshi's is a good stage for Ike. San told me he didn't really like that stage, but that stage just doesn't feel right in the MU in our case. You wanna take Ike somewhere where you can safely camp and not worry about your lasers being disrupted by walls/platforms and where you can safely Side-B to avoid him. Since Yoshi's Island's platforms are slanted, you can't really Side B there THAT well. As stated, BF is actually NOT a bad stage for Ike, but it's not bad for Falco either. It all depends on how comfortable you are on the stage, really. I would suggest you stay away from stages like Yoshi's Island, Lylat Cruise, and Halberd, though. Ike will take a massive dookie on you on those stages.
Plus, Yoshi's is a good stage for Ike. San told me he didn't really like that stage, but that stage just doesn't feel right in the MU in our case. You wanna take Ike somewhere where you can safely camp and not worry about your lasers being disrupted by walls/platforms and where you can safely Side-B to avoid him. Since Yoshi's Island's platforms are slanted, you can't really Side B there THAT well. As stated, BF is actually NOT a bad stage for Ike, but it's not bad for Falco either. It all depends on how comfortable you are on the stage, really. I would suggest you stay away from stages like Yoshi's Island, Lylat Cruise, and Halberd, though. Ike will take a massive dookie on you on those stages.
M@v
Subarashii!
I never go to yoshi's as falco. I don't like being unable to IAP laglessly on the whole stage.
MARLX
Smash Journeyman
Arty
Smash Lord
This matchup isn't unwinnable at all for Ike. The biggest problem Ike has imo in this matchup is landing a kill on falco. Laser camping is overrated since you'll be playin on small stages like BF and SV. Ike can also predict phantasms pretty easily with jabs. His jabs are also annoying bc you can't jab cancel.
One way to sneak a kill on Ike that few people know about is Up-smash his up-B. When he's recovering from below at high percents, you can sneak your U-smash quickly under and it'll connect.
Overall I say 55-45/60-40 Falco. If jabs could kill though, I would give Ike the advantage lol.
One way to sneak a kill on Ike that few people know about is Up-smash his up-B. When he's recovering from below at high percents, you can sneak your U-smash quickly under and it'll connect.
Overall I say 55-45/60-40 Falco. If jabs could kill though, I would give Ike the advantage lol.
M@v
Subarashii!
Where's it fit it? As he's starting to flip the second time from ether? Or as he's coming up to grab the sword? I think I've done it once or twice by dumb luck.
I usually keep timing reflector against ikes who don't sweetspot right and rack up damage.
I usually keep timing reflector against ikes who don't sweetspot right and rack up damage.
Mr. Doom
Smash Hero
Jabs can kill if they're fresh and if Falco's DI is horrible. And Falco ***** Ike.
Arty
Smash Lord
Timing reflector? Timing lasers is much easier plus you can get some nice free damage cause they'll keep dropping down from the laser.
I'm not sure of the exact spot where Falco's upsmash hits Ike's upB. I've done it many times and I believe it's as he's coming up to grab the sword. Any ideas Mr. Doom?
I'm not sure of the exact spot where Falco's upsmash hits Ike's upB. I've done it many times and I believe it's as he's coming up to grab the sword. Any ideas Mr. Doom?
M@v
Subarashii!
That's what I do, but with reflector. You hit him with reflector as he misses the sweetspot. It knocks him slightly down and away, and forces him to ether again. Repeat until he decides to sweetspot the ledge. Also reflector's range is far enough you won't get hurt if you miss and he comes onstage with the ether.
Reflector does more damage per hit than lasers do too Trust me on this one its better than using lasers to knock him back off again. The only time I could see the lasers being better is if the reflector is stale/you can catch ike with a double laser before he falls back down.
Reflector does more damage per hit than lasers do too
Trust me on this one its better than using lasers to knock him back off again. The only time I could see the lasers being better is if the reflector is stale/you can catch ike with a double laser before he falls back down.
#HBC | ZoZo
Shocodoro Blagshidect
It's indeed as he's catching his sword.Timing reflector? Timing lasers is much easier plus you can get some nice free damage cause they'll keep dropping down from the laser.
I'm not sure of the exact spot where Falco's upsmash hits Ike's upB. I've done it many times and I believe it's as he's coming up to grab the sword. Any ideas Mr. Doom?