***Falco is third in the new tier list!***

[Blistering Speed]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=214428

SS Tier
Meta Knight 15.00

S Tier
Snake 13.91

A Tier
Falco 13.03
King Dedede 12.94
Mr. Game & Watch 12.50
Marth 12.09
Diddy Kong 11.94

Interesting to say the least, thoughts?

 

[Teran]

I agree. Falco has excellent matcups with other Top Tiers considering how other characters fare.
I don't agree with the whole list though...

Edit: I just realised that Angel is now guility of playing the top 3 characters in the game That is amazing.

 

[bowz]

I still don't think he's third. Fourth or fifth. But hey, that's just my opinion.

 

[Kasper!]

Theres only one thing to say

well done falco users on your performance afterall its your results which helped falco move up

 

[8AngeL8]

Edit: I just realised that Angel is now guility of playing the top 3 characters in the game That is amazing.

Haha, wow.

I disagree quite strongly with him being third in the game, though. I think he's a very solid character, but not third best. He's probably the best character in the game at destroying the lower 2/3rds of the cast, but he starts to have problems up higher. MK, Snake (I don't care what you guys say, he has the advantage, **** IT! ), GaW, Kirby, IC's, etc all give him a rough time.

 

[Blad01]

Wow... 3d... I don't think he's THAT good, but who could be above him anyways ? I don't see any characters :x

What is strange is his score : He is close to Snake (13.91) with 13.03.

 

[Blistering Speed]

True, but who would you have above him? Going by matchup's alone as you seem to be, I'd say your only option would be Marth.

*Edit* Directed at Angel

 

[M@v]

Good stuff Falco. Too bad his two fellow spacies got screwed.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

This is one of the only thing of the new list I agree with. Falco is the 3rd best character, only Snake and MK are better. I don't think though that Snake and MK are tiers higher. They all belong in the same tier.

Falco is easy to play and extremely effective. He ca CG opponents to ~56% and then they have to deal with endless SHL/SHDL and Falco can just run away/phantasm and deal safely dmg while the opponent chases him. His match-up's are very good and I don't think that he has any match-up that's worse than 45/55 except Snake, whom he loses to 4/6. His worst match-up's are MK, G&W, Zelda, ICs and Kirby but theyare all 45/55 imo.

 

[Freezewish]

You think Falco vs Game and Watch and Falco vs Metaknight are 45/55? Please explain this to me.

O_o

 

[Teran]

You think Falco vs Game and Watch and Falco vs Metaknight are 45/55? Please explain this to me.

O_o

GaW vs Falco is 55/45 GaW
And you're right, it isn't 55/45 MK, it's 50/50
Fancy that!

 

[CY]

i agree with him on third. reason being is falco is a big swingin' ****.

 

[ExCeL 52]

Fourth .. Give third to DeeDeeDee....

 

[Blistering Speed]

I refuse stubbornly to believe MK goes even with Falco. Also it's well known that Gheb thinks G&W is an overrated POS lawl.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Nono, Blistering Speed. G&W is very good, no doubt. I just don't think he's top5.

Most match-up's are just getting closer on higher levels. And that's where the tier list and match-up's in general take place. A crub might get gimped nyKirby all the time and thus it shoul be 6/4 for Kirby but on a higher level the player an make more use of a characters strength to even the match a bit more.

 

[XxBlackxX]

you guys may think i'm crazy, but i think GnW is more 50:50 than 45:55 and MK is more 45:55 than 50:50.

anyways, i think falco does deserve 3rd spot. the only character that comes even close to D3, and while he has **** matchups with lower tiers, he doesn't do that well against higher tiers, though he does counter snake iirc

 

[Vlade]

I knew falco would move up eventually. I believe he still has the potential to move up.

 

[Conviction]

I like how the new tier list had made all the forums (maybe excepted MK) want to improve this might be when Brawl's metagame starts devolping quickly. (or this always happen when new tier list come out. Lol I joined 2008 so I wouldn't know.)

 

[DemonFart]

Good stuff Falco. Too bad his two fellow spacies got screwed.

pretty badly too. i was almost sure wolf would go up. until i saw the new tier list and cried

 

[8AngeL8]

IMO, Falco belongs here:

MK
Snake
D3
GaW
Marth
ROB
Ice Climbers
Wolf
Falco


As you can see, my opinion differs pretty greatly from the norm past the 4th spot

If anyone wants to know reasons, I'll give them, but feel free to just write me off as insane.

 

[Z1GMA]

IMO, Falco belongs here:

MK
Snake
D3
GaW
Marth
ROB
Ice Climbers
Wolf
Falco


As you can see, my opinion differs pretty greatly from the norm past the 4th spot

If anyone wants to know reasons, I'll give them, but feel free to just write me off as insane.

Wolf? O_o'

 

[§witch]

IMO, Falco belongs here:

MK
Snake
D3
GaW
Marth
ROB
Ice Climbers
Wolf
Falco


As you can see, my opinion differs pretty greatly from the norm past the 4th spot

If anyone wants to know reasons, I'll give them, but feel free to just write me off as insane.

Wolf has a solid moveset, but nothing to warrant him being that high. D3 isn't that good, or ROB or GnW.

ICs have horrid grab range and are ****ed if they can't land a grab.

Marth...I don't agree, but i don't have any reasons for it.

Anyways, I want to hear your reasons.

 

[sniperworm]

IMO, Falco belongs here:

MK
Snake
D3
GaW
Marth
ROB
Ice Climbers
Wolf
Falco


As you can see, my opinion differs pretty greatly from the norm past the 4th spot

If anyone wants to know reasons, I'll give them, but feel free to just write me off as insane.

I'm also curious as to why you feel Wolf is better than Falco.

 

[Conviction]

IMO, Falco belongs here:

MK
Snake
D3
GaW
Marth
ROB
Ice Climbers
Wolf
Falco


As you can see, my opinion differs pretty greatly from the norm past the 4th spot

If anyone wants to know reasons, I'll give them, but feel free to just write me off as insane.

If you're gonna put Wolf up there you might as well put Fox... they are both good but THAT high?

 

[8AngeL8]

Ice Climbers: Their **** grab range doesn't matter much. A good IC player doesn't try to force the grab, they get it when their opponent screws up. Between desynch blizzards, ice blocks, and their little spin attack, they have all the pressure game they need to back their opponent into a corner and get them to mess up. I may be biased on this one because of how much I play against Melee1's Ice Climbers, but at a high level the IC's are scary.

Wolf: He's one of the most unpunishable characters in Brawl. With his good aerial DI, he can poke and prod at a defensive opponent until they break through. His Bair is my vote for best aerial move in the game. His reflector is the best of the three, what with the startup invincibility frames. The blaster, while not as good as Falco's is still a great way to keep up the pressure and stop defensive players. Even on the ground, he's got great range with his tilts and quick Fsmash. His Dsmash is a ridiculously fast kill move if the Wolf player is careful to save it.

His recovery is nowhere near as big an issue as it was once thought. Good Wolf's know how to angle it properly and get back on, and they hardly ever get put into a situation where it's needed anyway. Really, I think his recovery and lack of great aerials other than Bair are his only weaknesses. He's a beast otherwise.


Falco, I feel, is not as strong as we once thought. Earlier in Brawl's life, we quickly discovered his powerful lasers and chain grabs and spikes. These are incredibly powerful tools that absolutely brickwalled a great number of characters and players. As time has gone on, players have learned the tricks to not get grabbed. They have found out how to tech the spike. They have found out how to maneuver around lasers. They're still dangerous tools, to be sure, but not the all powerful abilities they once were.

What we are left with, then, is a character with great speed and powerful aerials, but a merely okay ground game. His jab and Ftilt are great, but he lacks range and kill moves while grounded. He has an above average moveset, but when compared to the absolutely **** movesets the other high/top tiers have I feel it is lacking.

I want to stress that I don't think Falco is a bad character at all, I think he's high tier material, just not top tier. Also keep in mind just how hardcore he destroys the low tiers. I honestly can't see a competent Falco losing to a Link or a Pokemon Trainer or a Bowser. He's good, but not the best, see what I'm saying?

I considered putting Fox above Falco as well, but I wasn't sure about it. I debate that one with myself a lot, and since I was already making a scandalous post, I decided to go ahead and leave him off.

 

[Conviction]

Didn't expect to hear it from a Falco main to think Fox was better.

 

[CY]

falco deserves his tier spot because of the fact he can **** a lot of the cast, and doesn't have too many bad match ups. i don't see how you put wolf, ICs, g&w, ROB, or marth in front of falco. they have it off worse than falco. his only bad match ups are kirby, MK, marth, ICs, and g&w. some of these aren't even that bad, as we have lasers to camp with while some of them have no projectiles. maybe you aren't using him right angel, but falco def. deserved his spot in top tier. LOL @ saying you consider fox to be better than falco, ugh.

all in all, falco's CG, lasers, and his good overall fighting **** a ton of the cast, so how is he not a top tier character to you? LOL

also, g&w has a much better bair than wolf.

 

[§witch]

Ice Climbers: Their **** grab range doesn't matter much. A good IC player doesn't try to force the grab, they get it when their opponent screws up. Between desynch blizzards, ice blocks, and their little spin attack, they have all the pressure game they need to back their opponent into a corner and get them to mess up. I may be biased on this one because of how much I play against Melee1's Ice Climbers, but at a high level the IC's are scary.

Either way, their meta-game isn't going anywhere, so I can't see them going up.

Wolf: He's one of the most unpunishable characters in Brawl. With his good aerial DI, he can poke and prod at a defensive opponent until they break through. His Bair is my vote for best aerial move in the game. His reflector is the best of the three, what with the startup invincibility frames. The blaster, while not as good as Falco's is still a great way to keep up the pressure and stop defensive players. Even on the ground, he's got great range with his tilts and quick Fsmash. His Dsmash is a ridiculously fast kill move if the Wolf player is careful to save it.

He has a hard time killing, trust me. Fox's reflector is much better in terms of practical use, shine stalling/spiking. His tilts are all bad, ftilt is one of the least safe moves on block in the game. His bair is great, but not enough to bring him up that high. And that leaves his mediocre blaster <.<

His recovery is nowhere near as big an issue as it was once thought. Good Wolf's know how to angle it properly and get back on, and they hardly ever get put into a situation where it's needed anyway. Really, I think his recovery and lack of great aerials other than Bair are his only weaknesses. He's a beast otherwise.

I agree with all this.

Falco, I feel, is not as strong as we once thought. Earlier in Brawl's life, we quickly discovered his powerful lasers and chain grabs and spikes. These are incredibly powerful tools that absolutely brickwalled a great number of characters and players. As time has gone on, players have learned the tricks to not get grabbed. They have found out how to tech the spike. They have found out how to maneuver around lasers. They're still dangerous tools, to be sure, but not the all powerful abilities they once were.

I honestly don't think the tech discovery is going to change much at all, I never have. And time hasn't changed the effectiveness of his lasers. Falco can go stocks without the CG, it's just always there.

What we are left with, then, is a character with great speed and powerful aerials, but a merely okay ground game. His jab and Ftilt are great, but he lacks range and kill moves while grounded. He has an above average moveset, but when compared to the absolutely **** movesets the other high/top tiers have I feel it is lacking.

Usmash gets the job done IMO.

I considered putting Fox above Falco as well, but I wasn't sure about it. I debate that one with myself a lot, and since I was already making a scandalous post, I decided to go ahead and leave him off.

Fox has no representation, and no approach options.

Keep in mind this is all in the spirit of debate and you are completely entitled to your opinion

 

[Conviction]

Fox really doesn't any rep. Most of his Rep. are those Dair Happy noobs. Lucien sadly also found Dair as only move on safe mode. And once people caught on and started punishing him, he concluded Fox bad.

 

[8AngeL8]

@CY: He's really good, no doubt, I just personally find him to be not the best. It's just opinion. Also, GaW's bair can be punished when shielded, while Wolf's is much harder.

@Switch: I think IC's metagame is stalled because of two things. First is lack of play. There are only a handful of high level IC's in the nation, so not enough people trying to find new things. Second, the IC's that ARE there simply try to grab. This contributes to the "IC's only play to grab" mentality that has stalled their advancement. With Desynchs, there is SO much more to them than the grabs, and I think that could be developed if more people played them.

Wolf can get his kills by making sure he saves the Dsmash. Even if it doesn't kill, he can use the reflector to gimp. Admittedly, he's not the best killer in the world, but I don't think it's a HUGE problem for him. Falco has a kill problem, and he got third on the tier list!

The discovery of the tech, while it doesn't render the CG useless, DOES make a difference. A tier list is supposed to be based off the highest level of play achieveable by the characters, which means Falco's opponents will have mastered the DI and tech off the stage. A free 50+ percent is ridiculous, but it's worse than taking a stock off, obviously. It doesn't make Falco useless, but it does reduce his effectiveness, if only slightly. As I said earlier, I don't think the CG as a whole is as effective as it used to be, because people are learning how to space and not get grabbed by Falco's mediocre grab range.


@Iblis: I agree. Fox is so quick and powerful, there's no reason for him to be predictable. I hate seeing Dair spamming Foxes, because he's got SO much more potential than that. Good Foxes are DANGEROUS.


As I said earlier, you're all free to write me off as insane, these are just my opinions.

 

[-Mars-]

Nice to see someone with a positive opinion of Fox.........although I still can't see Wolf and Fox anywhere near Falco.

Falco takes half a stock almost immediately in every matchup. He can then sit there and add on chip damage until they're in kill range. He has great priority, decent pokes, and while not the greatest KO power he has more than one option once his opponent is in that range.

Also I would like to know how you Falco players view the Sheik matchup seeing as how you keep saying he ***** the lower half of the cast. She does very well against him and has at least a slight advanatge on him.

 

[8AngeL8]

I think Shiek/Falco is even. Needles actually keep up with Falco's lasers, and she's nimble enough to maneuver around a lot of his attacks. Her boost smash alone makes her a much better killer than Falco is. She's super fast, so it's not out of the question that she avoids the CG entirely, but she can survive the spike anyway, so it's just damage.

Falco has the ranged advantage and goes even in the air, I think, but loses on the ground. Overall, a fairly even and exciting matchup.

 

[akkon888]

Well its a good position... I'm just not sure if he deserves it more than D3. Reasons:

1. D3 D-Air has bigger range
2. D3 Recovery is Exceptional
3. D3 projectiles can absorb spam attacks (Falco Laser, Fox laser, Pit arrows to some extent)
4. D3, though somewhat slow, is extremely durable, and Falco (or many other lighter chars) can't really finish him without a smash
5. D3 has superior U-Smash
6. D3 has one of the best F-Tilts in the game, up there with Ike's F-Tilt, as well as Lucas' impressively fast F-Tilt

Possible reasons for Falco's placement:

1. Fast
2. Fast Recovery (Blink)
3. Fast, good smashes (D-Smash, F-Smash)
4. Useful converse spacing ability (Moving Reflector)
5. Spam laser with hitstun
6. Above average roll dodge and movement speed
7. Superior air in general (MK, Snake, Lucario, and a few others compete)

In my opinion, D3 would be a better 3rd pick, but if this happened, Falco would be 4th for sure.

 

[-Mars-]

I think Shiek/Falco is even. Needles actually keep up with Falco's lasers, and she's nimble enough to maneuver around a lot of his attacks. Her boost smash alone makes her a much better killer than Falco is. She's super fast, so it's not out of the question that she avoids the CG entirely, but she can survive the spike anyway, so it's just damage.

Falco has the ranged advantage and goes even in the air, I think, but loses on the ground. Overall, a fairly even and exciting matchup.

Lol, i'm hoping your aware that she tilt ***** Falco? Her ftilt lock to tipper usmash is far more dangerous than her seldom-used boost smash could ever hope to be.

Call me crazy but I actually think Sheik outcamps Falco. Her ability to crawl combined with her speed and needles makes Falco the approacher. Hit her shield and you'll receive ftilt OoS......enjoy the spacie ****.

 

[Rudementry]

Fox has a lot of ups and downs, high ups and low downs. Lets not even mention pikachu. Fox destroys snake, the supposed 2nd on the tier list, but is eaten alive by MK's and ZSS's just to name a random few. Honestly Fox can take on most of the top tiers. I love fighting snakes, ROB's, D3s and G&Ws. All of those match ups are atleast 50:50 or better for fox from my personal experience. Marth is close to 50:50 but may be more in his favor, but good foxes can easily take on marths.

I don't know how I ended up posting this here, lol I hardly managed to mention falco at all, but honestly, fox does not deserve 24th place. Its ridiculous.

Where I live theres only one real bad matchup I have to worry about, MK's. Other then that, fox can handle a lot, in fact most of fox's match ups are obscure and less used characters. Sure he can't do everything, but he can do a lot more than Bowser.

 

[-Mars-]

He doesn't "destroy" Snake and G&W is one of his worst matchups. Marth is like 60:40 or 65:35 in Marths advantage.

 

[8AngeL8]

Of course I'm aware of the tilt rapeage, Marsulas. I was including that in the fact that she wins on the ground. Were it not for Falco being able to get 50% off a grab and have strong aerials, it would certainly be in Sheik's favor.

 

[Blistering Speed]

In one stock, I'd put money on Shiek getting more damage from F Tilt then Falco does from his CG. Besides that, though alot of your reasons are questionable at best, It's always nice to see someone who doesn't think along the normal lines.

Without wavedashing, Ice Climber's just can't approach as safely as they could and virtually all characters have little walls they can put up against them. Then, once they're seperated, Nana's ****** and you're fighting a low tier with an abysmal recovery. Their saving graces are their projectile spam (which let's face it, between blizzard and ice blocks, can be gotten around easily), their disjointed smashes and their grabs, but against certain characters, I just don't see how the competent MK or whatever is going to get grabbed.

Fox can never go much higher on the list, just because of his **** matchups against ZSS, MK, Pikachu and Shiek. He's counterpicked too easily.

I think you're just plain overrating Wolf, his recovery, whilst now handled better, is still stiff. Alot of his tilts aren't safe on block, in practicality his shine isn't as useful as you make out (if you can time the invincibility frames, then...well done), blaster is mediocre at best, B Air is great but he can't rely on that to take him so high, especially considering ignoring that his aerial game is average besides B Air. Fresh D Smash is good, but it's also his only option, not to mention it's a needed move in Wolf's general moveset so it'll doubtless not be fresh.

Falco on the other hand has an instant 50% each stock (with the possibility of more in followups), the best projectile in the game, a strong aerial game, an average ground game, a good recovery, decent killing options (D Air, B Air, situationally F Smash and U Smash), a very good spacing game (lol chip damage after the CG) and the only move in the game with frame advantage.

I want to stress that I don't think Falco is a bad character at all, I think he's high tier material, just not top tier. Also keep in mind just how hardcore he destroys the low tiers. I honestly can't see a competent Falco losing to a Link or a Pokemon Trainer or a Bowser. He's good, but not the best, see what I'm saying?

Please don't make me lose respect for you because you seem an otherwise intelligent poster. Bowser never belongs grouped with Link or PT, Bowser has a 45:55 matchup with Falco.

 

[8AngeL8]

I'm not grouping them by quality, I know Bowser is MUCH better than Link or PT. I was listing characters from the lower half, and I'd already picked two bottom tiers, so I pulled one out of mid. I wasn't putting Bowser down, I was stressing that I actually DO like Falco.

Well, I can't really argue any further. I've stated why I think my choices are better, and it basically comes down to opinion at this point. I fully acknowledge that my opinion on these characters is not shared by the majority, I just wanted to let people know there are other viewpoints to consider.

 

[Blistering Speed]

I understand you weren't grouping them by quality, but you say:

Also keep in mind just how hardcore he destroys the low tiers. I honestly can't see a competent Falco losing to a Link or a Pokemon Trainer or a Bowser. He's good, but not the best, see what I'm saying?

You say he hardcore destroys Bowser and that a competent Falco shouldn't lose to a Bowser... when it's a 55:45 matchup.

I understand your decision to not argue further, it would lead to us going in circles, but bear in mind that your very different opinion will be disputed and you'll have to debate if you want your views to be considered more.