~ Fairy Fountain Research Thread: buhbye ol' chum ~

[zeldspazz]

Oh also, since I happened to post here: that "Ness' Dtilt has a part of hitbox that forces a trip, it can't trip randomly" thing discussed some posts back? I checked it. It's bull****.

Is it really? The Ness mains spewed that for a while and I always believed it.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Is it really? The Ness mains spewed that for a while and I always believed it.

What I've proven so far:

• The move can trip with more than one part of the hitbox
• Hitting again with the same part of the hitbox that caused the trip doesn't force it for sure with the second hit.

These two things prove the original claim to be untrue. However, there's still a small chance that the move also has this magical auto-trip hitbox part... although I highly doubt it. Instead I can believe that different parts of the hitbox might have different trip rates.

I plan on making a video proof about this when I can find motivation to record the replays I have ready...

 

[zeldspazz]

Cant wait, sounds interesting

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Cant wait, sounds interesting

Don't hold your breath, the video will be pretty boring actually.

Also, bulletin about that new DACUS tech: right now it seems to be only a new method to perform a regular DACUS on the very first frame possible. (second frame after the dash attack starts) This gives some characters a much longer slide than they would normally get, a prime example being Diddy Kong.

Edit: This isn't based on my own studies. The information is collected from here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=9495321

 

[zeldspazz]

I can just see Zelda Usmashing across FD. Makes me laugh when i think of it. Hopefully it works for her.

 

[Kataefi]

Yeah can someone test it? It's showing some decent results with other characters. Notably:

well uh i'm doing this with Falco and it's pretty awesome

i just do a late d-air, buffer forward and upC, spam upC, and he zooms the length of half of FD

 

[Half-Split Soul]

I did run some brief tests on it earlier and so far I only managed to create a slide equivalent to her normal hyphen smash. However, I can't really say I have the technique down 100% even with Diddy yet, so this might just be me sucking. I'll look at it some more tomorrow when it's not 2 a.m. here, lol.

 

[KayLo!]

That's actually very old. It's just a buffered DACUS. Diddy and Sheik are the only two characters who benefit from it the most as far as I know. I've seen this in a blog months ago from the same person who did the Pikachu cg blog. The US is always behind on this stuff. And no, it doesn't work for Zelda. :/

Supposedly doesn't work for Zelda.

Then again, if it's working for Falco, maybe someone just needs to try really really hard for Zelda, and it'll happen. =X

 

[GodAtHand]

I can do it on occasion with Diddy. I tried to get it to work with Zelda for like 20 minutes and got nothing... I might try again sometime this week.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Back from some more testing. Here's what I got so far: this in fact does work for her and, if done perfectly, does give her a slight boost. That's the good news, but here come the bad: the boost it gives her is minimal. It's about one Zelda's width more than her normal hyphen smash, which isn't much. Of course there still might be some frame that I haven't hit yet that gives her a super long slide, but I wouldn't get my hopes up if I were you.

 

[Kataefi]

Thanks for testing it out HSS - if the distance is significant enough to allow extra chasing from, say, right at dtilt's tip where Usmash can't reach them, then it would be useful in this scenario.

Can I pay people's attention to this quote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ai7ATWcg0s8
Falco buffering a DACUS out of a shield drop. Plus canceling the beginning of a dash animation? I don't know what it is. Can anyone figure out what happens at 0:05

I'm releasing a video on this soon, it's gonna be pretty amazing.

Any thoughts?

 

[MrEh]

Attempting to get the extra reach out of a Usmash just as a Dtilt followup isn't that useful though. This would only be feasible if Usmash was able to kill out of a Dtilt lock. Unfortunately, the percents that the Dtilt lock works aren't high enough to use the Usmash in such a way.

If it's for positioning and damage, then a grab functions the exact same way, but is far easier to do. At the percents that Dtilt locks are possible, you can definitely get at least one pummel in there, so the damage difference is negligible. I just wouldn't stale my Usmash when I could just grab, and pummels and grabs are generally good in refreshing the rest of your moveset. Usmash is always a decent killing move when it's fresh, so I like saving it on occasion. Even if a DACUS is an additional option, it's no different then Ftilting your opponent out of a Dtilt lock. Is it an option? Yes. Is it a good option? Not really.


It could certainly be funny to use for the lulz though.

 

[GodAtHand]

If only hers was decent. I really should try practicing again and see if DACUSing at different times offers any decent results. So far nothing though... I just want to find that magical frame that would make her slide as fast and far as Shiek...

 

[#HBC | Scary]

If only hers was decent. I really should try practicing again and see if DACUSing at different times offers any decent results. So far nothing though... I just want to find that magical frame that would make her slide as fast and far as Shiek...

I've been at it for an hour and still nothing. I'd be all over the place if it was like Sheik's......If only...

 

[#HBC | Scary]

If only hers was decent. I really should try practicing again and see if DACUSing at different times offers any decent results. So far nothing though... I just want to find that magical frame that would make her slide as fast and far as Shiek...

I've been at it for an hour and still nothing. I'd be all over the place if it was like Sheik's......If only...

Edit: sorry, computer acting up

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Any thoughts?

Slowed down it almost looks as if he was using his Hyphen smash or Usmash to cancel... another Usmash? What the hell?

Here's the clip slowed down to 1/5 of original speed for anyone interested:

Spoiler

Attempting to get the extra reach out of a Usmash just as a Dtilt followup isn't that useful though. This would only be feasible if Usmash was able to kill out of a Dtilt lock. Unfortunately, the percents that the Dtilt lock works aren't high enough to use the Usmash in such a way.

True, but in case she really would get enough extra distance for this to be useful it could also be used after Dtilt popup percents when enemy DI prevents the regular Usmash/Utilt/hyphen smashes from working. It also could work as means of better getting under the enemy when they're in the air.

However, as stated before, I'm rather sceptical about the usefulness of this, especially when concidered how hard it is to do consistently.

If only hers was decent. I really should try practicing again and see if DACUSing at different times offers any decent results. So far nothing though... I just want to find that magical frame that would make her slide as fast and far as Shiek...

Yeah, it took me a whole lotta time to even manage to produce the slightly increased slide I mentioned. I just hope that this doesn't lead into the situation where that magical frame does exist, but the time window is so strict that the tech becomes impossible to use.

 

[Tristan_win]

Nvm, I just notice you guy have done select moves

 

[KayLo!]

Random, but dsmash's frame data has a typo.... you have "12 - 14 9 (Back Hit)" for the hitbox data. 9 came out of nowhere, lol.

 

[Kataefi]

So.... like... did it ever clock on that AC nair in the centre of a character' hurtbox sets up into a uair?

It's the same case as Uthrow, where Zelda can jump at them, except they're right above her head this time instead of launches further out...

The thing stopping this is an airdodge... because they can airdodge, but can that be waited out?

Would be interesting to see how much stun they experience here at this point.

 

[zeldspazz]

AC Nair sets up a lot of weird things, what exactly causes the different trajectories? Is it simply which hitbox or where it hits?

 

[JuJux]

So.... like... did it ever clock on that AC nair in the centre of a character' hurtbox sets up into a uair?

It's the same case as Uthrow, where Zelda can jump at them, except they're right above her head this time instead of launches further out...

The thing stopping this is an airdodge... because they can airdodge, but can that be waited out?

Would be interesting to see how much stun they experience here at this point.

I recently started using the Uthrow when the opponent is at 80% ~. I think that this throw gives good tools to kill your opponent. When you jump toward him, there are 3 options available to him : do an airdodge, an aerial or a double jump. As your opponent has DI your Uthrow, you are more often "next to him" rather than "below him". So if he wants to do an aerial or airdodge you can easily punish him with a Bair or Fair and if he jumps it is either you take the risk and jump as Uair or you fastfall to the ground and you try to punish him when he lands to the ground with a Usmash, ect ...

For AC Nair that connect with the center of your hitbox, this happens especially against small characters like MK, Olimar, ect, and the opponent is projected above you. And yes, Nair or Uair Nair would be a good option, but the move is not guaranteed like to others connections' hitbox tools.

AC Nair sets up a lot of weird things, what exactly causes the different trajectories? Is it simply which hitbox or where it hits?

Depending on how the latest hit from Nair cancel touches your opponent. If he touches him with the front part of the hitbox your opponent will be thrown behind you, if he touches him with the behind part of the hitbox your opponent will be shown in front of you, and if it touches with the central part of your hitbox your opponent will be projected above you (if he was on the ground) or will be "attracted" on the ground (if he was in the air).

 

[Kataefi]

The thing I've noticed here though is that she can throw out an uair usually at the same time they just recover to throw out an attack. So at worst there's a trade between attacks (well between MK's dair because that's who I used). B moves react later I've found, as do jumps.

They can airdodge at any point however, which is the biggest hurdle. But could this possibly be waited out? I've felt these situations so far have created a great guessing game with benefits of killing early.

It almost feels exactly like Dtilt > Usmash scenarios except replacing them with Nair > Uair

 

[MrEh]

Fthrow or Bthrow is generally better then Uthrow in most situations, assuming you throw them in the direction of the ledge.

As for Nair shenangians, baiting the airdodge and Uairing is more amazing.

 

[*JuriHan*]

this says her f-smash hits on frame 16. That can't be right because that would mean it's as slow as Jigglypuff's...

 

[Kataefi]

It is frame 16 =)

 

[MrEh]

this says her f-smash hits on frame 16. That can't be right because that would mean it's as slow as Jigglypuff's...

Zelda's Fsmash is slow?!?

I for one am very shocked! I demand an explanation for this!

 

[Darkmusician]

Zelda's Fsmash is slow?!?

I for one am very shocked! I demand an explanation for this!

Zelda slow. Who would've guessed.

 

[KayLo!]

Zelda's Fsmash is slow?!?

I for one am very shocked! I demand an explanation for this!

Can't help it..... I lol'd.

People I play often are starting to consistently block fsmash on reaction..... it's very irritating. Time to mix it up. ;-;

 

[*JuriHan*]

no i meant its NOT slow..... it hits well and its why i cant beleive it hits on the same frame as Jigglypuffs. It must be the great hitbox + it stays out that makes it easier to land.

 

[-Mars-]

SNO you are being trolled.

But yea it is that slow but it has little cooldown so it actually makes it one of her better moves.

 

[KayLo!]

Apparently shield SDI was just "discovered" again.

Props to us for knowing about it ages ago, lol.

K Prime was messing around with it in Debug Mode, and he said he could get Pika to shield SDI safely behind G&W's bair even when G&W started it at max distance...... but you pretty much have to be frame perfect to do it.

 

[Kataefi]

You know this could be really good in setting up a kick OoS!

 

[KayLo!]

It could set up for a lot of amazing things, but..... I'll wait until it looks not impossible to pull off. ;;

 

[Half-Split Soul]

You know this could be really good in setting up a kick OoS!

It doesn't allow SDI off the ground though, so only if the move that hits your shield has enough cooldown lag and little enough shieldstun for OoS Fair (or Bair if you're facing away from your opponent) to hit.

It could set up for a lot of amazing things, but..... I'll wait until it looks not impossible to pull off. ;;

Against multihit attacks it's not that impossible since you can just pretty much spam SDI inputs and it'll work. Also, some attacks such as G&W's Bair you mentioned have regular and slow enough interwalls between their hitboxes to make it possible to count the timing.

 

[MrEh]

Then I'd like to see it done with Zelda before we start raving about it's magical usefulness.

 

[KayLo!]

I'm getting extremely bored with Zelda..... quick, somebody find some amazing new tech or combo.

 

[MrEh]

(2)

 

[Darkmusician]

I'm getting extremely bored with Zelda..... quick, somebody find some amazing new tech or combo.

Yep that sounds about right.

 

[Bandit]

I'm getting extremely bored with Zelda..... quick, somebody find some amazing new tech or combo.

Uh oh... another one bites the dust?

 

[KayLo!]

(2)

Lol. Thanks MrEh, I'll be sure to incorporate this into my game. =P

Yep that sounds about right.

I don't blame you for not going all Zelda anymore, lol.

Man, I thought it'd never happen, but..... it hit me like a **** ton of bricks last night.

Uh oh... another one bites the dust?

Nah, I'm still gonna play her..... she's still fun in dubs, and I only use her for two pretty rare matchups in singles, so tourney-wise, I'm good.

I'm just *****ing because I used her on wifi last night, and after a handful of friendlies, I was in the mood to mix it up and play a bit more creatively, but..... it's Zelda. I had to settle for practicing my autocanceled nair followups and trying to set up spikes, lol.