EXTENNNDUURRRRRR (samus gen. disc.)

[abcool]

Despite the Rapage I HAD A BLAST PLAYING IN TOURNAMENT AGAIN. I have a different mindset playing this game. I play to enjoy the game and have fun I dont care about the money anymore I already had my glory winning tons of money I just want to test my skills as a gamer playing with Samus. Why would i quit if I'm having fun with the game? LOL people have too much pride lol. Play for the challenge, for the fight!!! IT FEELS GOOD TO BE BACK!!!!

I recently quit playing/hosting tourneys cause of lack of players and a solid community (Competitive gaming and living in the bahamas don't go together) If you are having fun with the game then ok. I didn't even know you were at the tourney till it was over and i saw you playing friendlies so i was like "oh crap is that wes?!" Then i heard someone said you got 4 stocked by m2k..so i went searching on the pre recorded stream and saw your match vs mango.

Anyway, good to see all the old pros back in the east coast part. Now all you have to do is team with Pc chris and we got nostalgia 101. An congrats on 9th... How many ppl showed up to that tourney?

 

[-Philip Coast Philip-]

lol wes grow up already...

Can you guys post other things Wes did wrong...

lol he was rusty i'm sure there were several things (watching video in a bit here..)

LoL I told Wes that this is exactly what would happen to him if he played against Mango. We may have had a bet on it or something, I'll have to check.

the recent epic samus thread in melee discussion? don't think i remember one there at least...

and in case you missed it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJlzsKQhRds
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfMlTq61TAk

(linked in amazing matches thread.)

 

[THE RED SPARROW]

Yeah after playing friendlies @ Linguini's tourney and doing decent at nearly every matchup EXCEPT Falcon, then watching Mango nuke one of my inspirations for using Samus- I think I'll just alt Sheik for the matchup.

It's definitely one of those matchups where even if you win, it's just not fun to play. None of the good punishes are safe and can be counter HARD, and a Falcon that can DI well is just hell to deal with. It's less about fighting and more about surviving that matchup.


So yes, I realize that Wes is out of practice and did miss a lot of stuff, but even when counting the mistakes one can clearly see that the matchup has probably evolved to an 8-2 or worse at this point. It's one of those "You only do good because you're a far better player" matchups.

 

[Pluplue]

AND ALSO FOR THOSE WHO WANT TO TAKE MY MONEY AT APEX SEND THE MMS PLEASE!!! I NEED THE TRAINING.

i wanna take ur moneyz

 

[Corigames]

"I will try my best to see about getting the right people to train with but in New York its a dead zone for training."
This is my problem. I left AZ to live in WV where there are no smashers and no market for a community. Got out of practice/rusty/etc. Got bored, came back to AZ where I worked for 2 years straight with no smash involvement, and now I want back in... but I can't get anyone to play with me until we put money on a tournament; then I show up, get my *** kicked, and then go back to sitting alone in my apartment. I live around some great players, but they don't play with anyone except for those that they live with.

I'm thinking about saving up and moving to a more smashing place, any suggestions?

 

[McNinja]

i wanna take ur moneyz

This is a match I would absolutely love to see.

 

[Geist]

Eww Samus dittos lol

 

[-Philip Coast Philip-]

hugs once said 'a good samus should never lose to falcon' (something to that effect...), but that was back like... when he pulled the kuger magnum prank.

which actually might bring up a good point here, about how we perceive things.

i don't think the matchup has (d)evolved to 8-2 or worse due to samus' incapabilities. her disadvantages have been known for a long time; rather, it really is a player issue here: mango is extremely good, and that can even be hard to really fathom that unless you've played him or someone like that.

i think you're assuming wes is better than he is; i don't think wes played smartly enough, allowing mango to capitalize on just about everything he could. (the analogy of course is that 'mango' could make anyone look that bad.) i think this was more an issue of, say, spacing and move choice.

the matchup may still be uneven, but i wouldn't say it's that broken.

 

[Geist]

Yeah seriously, did people forget how to play against Falcon or something?

 

[-Philip Coast Philip-]

geist let's get to the real issue here:

you and samus dittos. what's uppp?

 

[Geist]

missilemissilemissilemissilenair

dsmash

 

[abcool]

I think the matchup comes down to getting falcon off and keeping him off. Falcon is a monster onstage and crap off. Samus just has to edgeguard like a beast to win. She can get him off easily. Does Samus have a good gimping game at all?

 

[-Philip Coast Philip-]

missilemissilemissilemissilenair

dsmash

nah brah

i mean it doesn't have to look like that at least..

Spoiler

(andy where are those tapes, i need more samus dits...)

I think the matchup comes down to getting falcon off and keeping him off. Falcon is a monster onstage and crap off. Samus just has to edgeguard like a beast to win. She can get him off easily. Does Samus have a good gimping game at all?

it's not too hard to edgeguard falcon, but getting him offstage is harder. i mean like you said, that's where falcon's game is, on the stage. but getting him offstage is the right idea, of course.

 

[Geist]

Drop down lazy-boy nairs are awesome against falcon.
Onstage your goal should be to be really mobile and hard to hit, and then CC at appropriate times when he does manage to get a hit off.
Also don't get grabbed.

^^ Also it's not that I can't play the matchup, I just find that there's really no way to make those matches any shorter lool

 

[Pi]

wesss i wanna fight u too at apex
i wanna fighta ll da samus at apex :D

falcon is gayyyyest character in the game
i went through this phase (i hope its a phase) vs. marth and now i love that matchup
hopefully i can discover some things about the falcon matchup that make it fun to play too

 

[HugS™]

Lol don't be misled by those vids into thinking that Falcon hard-counters Samus.

When Hax says that all falcon needs to do is up-Air all day, it's true, it works. But that's assuming you're a samus that stays in the air vs Falcon. The average player has this tendency to start jumping and doing aerials when they don't know how to deal with a situation. It's like panic mode for a lot of players that use Samus (that and sidestepping). The ground vs air game is tough to master, but it's what you need for this matchup.

The matchup has absolutely NOT devolved to an 80-20 matchup.

One piece of advice that will improve your ability to play the matchup: stay grounded. Fighting Falcon in an air battle is like Falcon fighting Samus in a ground spacing battle. Your character owns the ground game, Falcon owns the air game, stick to your strength.

 

[Violence]

I think fighting Falcon is all about Defense.

I don't always agree with Hugo, but I think his way of fighting Falcon is probably the best out of all Samuses at the moment. I think Duck had some good ideas vs S2J as well.

 

[Pi]

hugs how do you deal with the nair

 

[Violence]

I think Duck had some pretty good ways of dealing with it.

Johnny doesn't nair spam these days as much as he used to, like around the earlier parts of this year, but he still throws it out a lot. If you lose to nair, Johnny just ****s all over you. Duck managed to not lose to nair, so Johnny couldn't just autowin him.

He used a variety of things, like knowing Johnny would go into shield, he started DD grabs, and cc'd the gentleman into dsmash.


I think Duck's influence on his meta was really apparent to me when I played friendlies with Juggleguy, ranked at like 5-6 in Michigan, who plays Duck a lot.

I was getting solidly beaten down, but never, ever, have I ever had a Falcon(and I've played plenty of them) as scared of me as that one. The way he moved, the moves he chose, it was like the entire time, no matter how much he was ahead, he was deeply respecting what my character could do to his.

I think that was pretty telling as to the difficulty of the matchup. To me, Falcon is favored, but doesn't counter Samus.

 

[DAlegendarysamus]

Lol i guess im an average samus Hugo lol. Stay grounded and space and you will win. Thats what hugs says that equivalent to what hax says" just up air all day". Hugs-" just stay grounded and space and you should be good". It feels good to be back, SMASHBOARDS IS THE PLACE FOR TROLLS. ONE MATCH YOU GUYS GO CRAZY LOL. And yes Ive grown up. I entered a tournament and took my *** beating like a man unlike some people would manage to do. And also some people would change their man after that match, not me. Is that grown enough for you? And plup if i have enough money on me at the tournament i will do it. SO EVERYONE TROLL ON and once again I'm glad i played Mango. That was my Welcome back *** whipping. And for there was about 30 people in the tournament and a pretty stacked tournament in good people. I got 9th i lose to Jman and Mango.

 

[Strong Badam]

good **** antoine

 

[Pi]

SMASHBOARDS IS THE PLACE FOR TROLLS.

one of us one of us gooble gobble gooble gobble

 

[HugS™]

LOL Wes, I don't really speak in absolutes. You didn't hear me say "if you stay on the ground, it's over". I was explaining that it's your best shot of handling the matchup. I also wasn't referring to you when I spoke of average Samuses jumping into the air all day. Samuses that panic or don't know what to do vs someone will end up jumping a lot more. Average samuses tend to find themselves in this type of situation more often than the top Samuses, but even the better Samuses will end up going into this panic mode. I do it at times.

Now, about Falcon's nair:

I deal with the nair by either shielding and wavedashing out before the followup, CCing into Dsmash (you can CC the initial hit and dsmash before he has a chance to reach the ground and shield it), by ftilting him while he's in midair, or by outspacing into a reverse grab. I mean, there are other ways, it's all situational.

If you want some kind of foundational way to deal with it:

- If you're reacting to a nair you already see coming, do the "Shield to wavedash OOS" approach to reset your positioning. Or shield to upB if you don't feel he'll immediately roll away.

- If you're read is telling you he will Nair before you actually see it starting, plan for the offensive tactics (CC dsmash, spaced reverse grab, chargeshot, pre-emptive ftilt, fsmash).

These aren't rules, but you can see me apply it these foundational ideas in my matches vs Samus. So it's just some guidance on how to deal with Falcon's approaches, everything can change on the situation though.
Also, the reason I get defensive when REACTING to the nair is because you don't really have enough time to do anything other than defend and reposition vs good falcons nairing you. I do the offensive tactics when I have a read, so that the whole approach is predetermined based on the idea that he WILL be nairing me, therefore, there's enough time to actually Fsmash, or dsmash, etc. That's why some Samus players, when they GUESS at Nairs, will end up getting read by the good Falcon player as the match goes on, because the offensive reactions by the Samus weren't based on reads, and they start getting baited as the match goes on.

 

[Corigames]

Wes

Spoiler

, you're acting like a *****.

I respect your Samus

Spoiler

, but

I

Spoiler

don't

respect

Spoiler

like this side of you. Yeah,

you

Spoiler

took a

beating

Spoiler

from

some great players

Spoiler

that you might not have lost to

a long time ago

Spoiler

and still like the game,

we welcome you

Spoiler

to what the rest of us in the

back

Spoiler

end of the mediocrity department do every god damn day we try

to play

Spoiler

. Stop acting like it makes

you

Spoiler

a

timeless saint. Ok?

He said grow up probably more to do with how you are reacting on the boards, not how you played in the tournament, though I obviously can't speak for someone else. Stop calling people out, acting like a victim, and pouting. Take a chill pill/smoke a bowl, you are way too wound up on rage and drama right now.

 

[HugS™]

In his defense, it's a strange thing to deal with a community that doesn't understand the difference between "not being too great", and "not being too great BECAUSE you haven't been playing". This is especially annoying when you were once the 4th best player in the nation. I bet if he was practicing though, and these results were still going on, he'd man up and admit to his place within the scene. This is only the case now because he feels he can do a lot better if he practiced, which I'm sure he could. But that's the thing though, if he is talking ****, he's gotta actually put in work at the same time.

I had to deal with it after coming back from my retirement, and it was extremely aggravating to hear people tell me that my old success was based on the inferiority of the metagame back then.

 

[Strong Badam]

yeah it's ******** when people imply that you can't somehow adapt to the metagame. sure the more defensive playstyle of today makes it harder for Samus to **** face but it can still be done.

 

[-Philip Coast Philip-]

SMASHBOARDS IS THE PLACE FOR TROLLS. ONE MATCH YOU GUYS GO CRAZY LOL. And yes Ive grown up. I entered a tournament and took my *** beating like a man unlike some people would manage to do.

lol alright, i was mostly just giving you a hard time because you talk (some funny) smack but it's only now that you played in a tournament finally. aand the first one back and you got stomped (by mango, nonetheless). but hey you're willing to admit it and keep on playing, and that's fine.

I had to deal with it after coming back from my retirement, and it was extremely aggravating to hear people tell me that my old success was based on the inferiority of the metagame back then.

hugs you waaashed up-

yeah that must have sucked. it seems quantitatively different, that you endured constant pressure and an evolving metagame for a few years, but it's really not qualitatively different: you both hit top at one point, and the adaptation and ability to get there should be considered equally for both.
because it seems, from what we've seen, is that if you're a good player, you'll be able to keep on winning over time and change (isai, ken, m2k, gimpyfish*). i think the only real difference now is that there's a far harder entrance exam to get back in.

interesting.

Spoiler

*...>_>

 

[Violence]

I played a bunch with Blunted Object, MadJ, and teh Icy this weekend.

Yo, Geist, if you're going to cancel on me two weekends in a row, please please please give me at least a day's notice, I usually schedule my **** so that we can play. When you cancel with such short notice, I end up having nothing to do for 4-5 hours and end up going to my office to get work done.

I'm too lazy to make a smash notebook so I'm just going to put some **** down here. Read if you want, don't if you don't care.

Thoughts:

Wow... I have bad habits. Hugo's definitely spot on with the mediocre player jumping thing. If I wanna get any better, I have stop wasting double jump. Definitely going start bomb weave mixups.

Every time I get hit, I keep hearing:

Darrell: "Dude, why'd you jump there? There's absolutely no reason to put yourself in a worse position."

Darrell: "*pause with his Fsmash right in my roll getup position* This is like the fifth time. You have to stop using the same option.



On the one hand, I've definitely improved my control, I can change wavedash distances at will now and my I'm missing less L cancels(lol I'm so bad). Definitely a plus of solitary practice, but the downside is I'm having a real hard time correcting my bad habits. Back home, it'd be easy, that **** would just get ground out of me by the local beasts, but right now, without anyone to play regularly, I keep doing them. It's so annoying, I have to change my mindset, or I'm going to be stuck in this scrub phase.

I think I've definitely improved from how I was at Genesis, but the main problems are still there. My main goal right now is to smooth out movement tweaks, but I need someone to play with if I'm ever going to tackle these bad habits.


We played a bunch of doubles. It's pretty frustrating when you're Samus and everyone else is a Space Animal or a Puff. There's just not enough speed for stage control. With perfect wavedashes, I barely can make it to my partner in time, usually. As such, I think you want small stages as Samus. I think Battlefield is pretty ideal, and I doubt anyone will stage strike it.


Impressions:

I think a space animal's fsmash or usmash on your shield is not shield grabable no matter what. Can someone verify this? This is kinda news to me.

Thus, I need to work on WDooS -> **** in general.

I can't crouch cancel worth ****. CC Dsmash sounds easy, but damn do I **** it up a lot. You can't really react to getting hit with CC Dsmash, you have to have a split second of knowing you're going to get hit and then CC Dsmash in response. At least, that's what I've gathered.

Samuses, if you aren't trying to get your opponent off stage with just about every attack you do, like, if that isn't the end goal of a string of punishes, imo, you're doing it wrong. Pushing people off stage efficiently is how Samus applies pressure. This feeling has been slammed into me by all the good Samuses I've played in the past, but it wasn't until this weekend that I could really put it into words. It doesn't matter if they're at 35% and you're at 170%, if they're offstage, you're winning.

For a shielding opponent on a platform, I am still confident that Bomb -> Dair as shield pressure gives you the maximum chance of shield stabbing, as the bomb attacks the lower part of the shield, and the dair attacks the top part. From there, you can dj nair to follow up, I believe, but I haven't really gotten a sick combo off of it.

I am in sore need of shield pressure. I can jab cancel if you ask me to do it, but I can't do it out of a wavedash. Hugo, do you have any tips on how to jab cancel with a moment's notice? Do I just need more solitary practice? Also, bomb waveland.... seems like a must-learn to me. It's too good of a mixup to leave out of your toolbox.

I'm going to try dash cancels for movement tweaking. For those who don't already know, a quick way of doing something that some Sheiks use while dashing is to dash->crouch->something. It allows Samus to perfectly space tilts, giving us more pinpoint control.

I still feel like, the more I learn about Samus, she's capable of more than we've seen. I'm kinda optimistic about the prospects of her future.

 

[abcool]

Yeah, i can understand the hell new players would go through especially at a time when none of these players could even wavedash properly. I guess in Wes's case because he trash talks alot ppl feel the need to whale on him more. I thought NY was full of smashers for you to train with i remembered seeing ou play Project M with DA(If that crew is still around) I thought you had guys to train with.

@ Hugs I always get nervous being grounded when the opponent is jumping and coming down with an attack i always wanna jump and uair or nair to intercept the attack. It feels like a garanteed hit.

Question: How strong is samus's backair? What percents can it kill floaties and Spacies at?

 

[Violence]

I might do a compilation of our finishers by doing them on a sandbag after dairing three times.

Fully charged charge shot

Super Missile

Nair

Bomb Nair

Bair

Fsmash

Utilt

Any others?

 

[MonkUnit]

dsmas h

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

bomb bair
bomb uair

for style points OFC

 

[Pi]

u can shieldgrab spacies upsmash/fsmash on ur shield
the farther away the smaller the window

fair is really really good vs. shield on platform
nair often shield pokes people on platforms if u do it rising

and personally i want to work with bombo waveland to stuff vs. shields on plats and on ground

plug in a controller and set it to bowser w/ 9 handicap and set the damage ratio to .5
practice ur jab cancels on that, and bomb wavelands on that, and delayed nairs on that, and stuff

 

[DAlegendarysamus]

I'm back and thats it!!!

Wes

Spoiler

, you're acting like a *****.

I respect your Samus

Spoiler

, but

I

Spoiler

don't

respect

Spoiler

like this side of you. Yeah,

you

Spoiler

took a

beating

Spoiler

from

some great players

Spoiler

that you might not have lost to

a long time ago

Spoiler

and still like the game,

we welcome you

Spoiler

to what the rest of us in the

back

Spoiler

end of the mediocrity department do every god damn day we try

to play

Spoiler

. Stop acting like it makes

you

Spoiler

a

timeless saint. Ok?

He said grow up probably more to do with how you are reacting on the boards, not how you played in the tournament, though I obviously can't speak for someone else. Stop calling people out, acting like a victim, and pouting. Take a chill pill/smoke a bowl, you are way too wound up on rage and drama right now.

I am taking it like a man im just talking about how that one match starts all of this when I orchestrated all of it lol. I asked to put him on my side of the bracket I just went to the tournament balls out with out training or anything. Its just frustrating that I couldnt move as good as want and know i can play in my mind. I got an ***-whipping like i said countless amounts of times you call me a baby all you want but I know a ton of people that play as samus who would stop playing the game or change mains because of that lose. Not me because i know I can win with the character, my only probably is NEW YORK SMASHERS DONT TRAIN WITH EACHOTHER and when they do come to gether its only bull**** teams and when we do play teams its just goofing around mainly. How I'm i suppose to get better that way. So I'm stuck in a corner trying to get better with ) viable players to play against. Thats what I"m really mad about.


And fyi Most samus players probably would have gotten Dead last at this event because the tournament was stacked with Good players. But LIKE I SAID, I'M BACK!!!!1 HOPEFULLY WHEN I DO GOOD AGAIN HUGS CAN COME BACK. And if any samus players would like to give me matchup vids, new techs, or just samus advice period inbox me I'm all ears. I hope everyone helps me like I helped the samus community by inventing most of her metagame.

 

[abcool]

In everyone honest opinion who compliments samus best in teams? Is it fox or another character?

 

[THE RED SPARROW]

hugs once said 'a good samus should never lose to falcon' (something to that effect...), but that was back like... when he pulled the kuger magnum prank.

which actually might bring up a good point here, about how we perceive things.

i don't think the matchup has (d)evolved to 8-2 or worse due to samus' incapabilities. her disadvantages have been known for a long time; rather, it really is a player issue here: mango is extremely good, and that can even be hard to really fathom that unless you've played him or someone like that.

The metagame has been evolving at a fast pace, the way Falcons play the matchup is far more precise and safe than it ever was, the amount of risks needed by Samus in order to win simply makes the matchup an uphill battle- unless playing a 3rd rate Falcon that still tries to Knee everything. Gone are the days when baiting into a down smash or waiting for a Falcon to jump to nair punish is safe. Falcons can just use Uair- THE END. Falcons now can just sit in shield and wait for you to do something and respond on reaction to counter,

Go for a grab without some psychological pressure? Get Kneed.

WD OOS? Telegraphed (Even if the misread they just can recover and reset to neutral off a SHFFL'd aerial or Tomahawk.

Jump? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Screw Attack? Gett CC'd out into a stomp or knee into death.

UAIR covers so many options and if spaced properly can't be CC punished or anything punished, unless the Falcon is playing stupidly or reckless throwing it out. Screw Attacking isn't viable against shield pressure unless near a platform or hitting an already elevated Falcon. Skilled Falcons can DI out and punish you accordingly.

i think you're assuming wes is better than he is; i don't think wes played smartly enough, allowing mango to capitalize on just about everything he could. (the analogy of course is that 'mango' could make anyone look that bad.) i think this was more an issue of, say, spacing and move choice.

the matchup may still be uneven, but i wouldn't say it's that broken.

I'm not. Like I said before I'm aware Wes isn't at top level, he said it himself. But one can discern the difference in bad play and limited options due to a character's prowess.

 

[Legend4ryFlower]

LMAO at west quote and post. Great attitude to have

coreygames youre an idiot, go get in flame wars on youtube or something....

 

[Corigames]

I think I've got that covered. Sounds like you're salty. How about you don't try to start **** with me while simultaneously telling me to go get in a flame war ^_^

I don't have a lot of team experience, but I really like playing with Falcon on my team. Samus can compliment his poor recovery by saving him and Samus hording stocks can give him more **** time if he runs out. I also like Fox, but not nearly as much. I think this is more of a question that Alukard could answer better.

 

[zDuck]

The metagame has been evolving at a fast pace, the way Falcons play the matchup is far more precise and safe than it ever was, the amount of risks needed by Samus in order to win simply makes the matchup an uphill battle- unless playing a 3rd rate Falcon that still tries to Knee everything. Gone are the days when baiting into a down smash or waiting for a Falcon to jump to nair punish is safe. Falcons can just use Uair- THE END. Falcons now can just sit in shield and wait for you to do something and respond on reaction to counter,

Go for a grab without some psychological pressure? Get Kneed.

WD OOS? Telegraphed (Even if the misread they just can recover and reset to neutral off a SHFFL'd aerial or Tomahawk.

Jump? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Screw Attack? Gett CC'd out into a stomp or knee into death.

UAIR covers so many options and if spaced properly can't be CC punished or anything punished, unless the Falcon is playing stupidly or reckless throwing it out. Screw Attacking isn't viable against shield pressure unless near a platform or hitting an already elevated Falcon. Skilled Falcons can DI out and punish you accordingly.

Did me playing s2j show nothing? I'm a relatively unknown samus player and I was able to take a game. I was also able to make the matches that I lost close and not complete blowouts. Samus has all the tools necessary to defeat falcon, it's not easy or anything but it's still definitely possible.

It's really obvious that you are you using wes vs. mango as a reference, seeing one of the best players in the world known for READS and not blindly abusing their character advantage isn't going to tell you anything about the character matchup

 

[Geist]

Anyone willing to cite mango as proof of character matchups might as well also cite mario as going 50-50 with the whole cast