EXTENNNDUURRRRRR (samus gen. disc.)

[BairJew]

You can still play "defensive" by playing right outside of your opponent's zone and not using your shield. Welcome to the future.

Thing is, samus seems like a very defensive character, and not using shield would elimininate the infamous UpB **** OoS therefore that would be like cutting off Samus's left limb and this also cuts out her use of SGing which is usually one of the only times she is able to. So I do understand you can play defensive without using shield lol, it seems like samus highly requires it within the play style of that character.

@Pi: I was trying to make a funny with that one and yeah I understand defense isn't only shield it just seems like a very important aspect when playing this character and it would be vital if you removed it's use when playing. And slightly good insights on that Marth/Roy's DwnB is both Def/Off thats prety slick stuff right there.

 

[Pi]

UB OoS works because people are used to pressuring around shieldgrabs, but UB OoS is something else entirely so it works and is unique to our character, but just like shieldgrabs it can be pressured around or baited so it's flawed as a 'do this and win' technique

it's still good, so use it every chance you get, but don't actively put yourself in shield in hopes of getting an UB on your opponent

 

[BairJew]

UB OoS works because people are used to pressuring around shieldgrabs, but UB OoS is something else entirely so it works and is unique to our character, but just like shieldgrabs it can be pressured around or baited so it's flawed as a 'do this and win' technique

it's still good, so use it every chance you get, but don't actively put yourself in shield in hopes of getting an UB on your opponent

Exactly its genuinely character specific therefore it allows more options with samus Oos and is genuinely excellent against difficult SP. Yet, of course you don't want to go around spamming UB OoS or you'd get wrecked fairly quickly, just pointing out that samus has great potential with a shield and less without usage.

 

[Pi]

^don't be so sure of that
samus has a lot of uniqueness too her, both in and out of shield

and i wouldn't exactly say UB OoS gives her 'potential'

 

[BairJew]

^ Sooo your saying that if we took away UB OoS she would have the same amount of potential she did before with her ability to UB OoS? I have a feeling you might be looking at this a tad wrong lol if you take away the ability or move options away from a character then that character would have one less move option in matches therefore you would taking away something from the character which in turn decreases the potential or amount of options that character has in matches.

 

[Corigames]

Or, because we are so dependent on using the UpBOoS, we are eliminating options that we have not even tried.
I don't think they mean completely stop using it, but to stop constantly depending on it. "it's still good, so use it every chance you get, but don't actively put yourself in shield in hopes of getting an UB on your opponent " -Pi

 

[-Philip Coast Philip-]

i think a greater facet of samus play needs to be her ability to take a hit. more trades, more risks, more pressure when applicable because chances are ur going to live a lot longer than ur opponent

so instead of guessing with shield, maybe guess with an attack

...

cc grab more imo, also bout to do extensive testing w/ extendur, i'd LOVE for this to become a staple in samus play, bu that may just be a pipe dream

I think extender use could use more innovation.

I mean, phanna pretty much made using the SWD somewhat of a reality... but did that completely die off just because it was too inconsistent? Can't we fix that?

But I think guessing with an attack is good. Shield is good, but it can only go so far. Not to eliminate it, of course-

You can still play "defensive" by playing right outside of your opponent's zone and not using your shield. Welcome to the future.

-but guessing or knowing the perfect times when to use it.

If an ideal or 'perfect' playstyle is one that utilizes the moves as best as possible, then it's not just about the moves themselves. It's not about not getting hit all the time, or always having a perfect counterattack. It's just about beating your opponent, either through spacing or control or baiting, or knowing when to sacrifice for something worth it, all of which comes from a lot of knowledge but ultimately involves guesswork.

I know my experimentation (and others') with her grab game has yielded some interesting results, most of which don't get used, because we tend to go for the combo, to go for what works. And kind of like hugs was implying, her pre-emptive or countering tilt game I think still can be fleshed out more.

Or just different kinds of stalls and feints... wavelanding is one option, but there are others as well.

 

[Pi]

i just was focusing on this part of your post
'just pointing out that samus has great potential with a shield and less without usage.'

i feel she is pretty limited in her shield, she can UB pretty much everything, but UB doesn't exactly make or break games, and is almost ineffective in some matchups

it's a great, unique characteristic, that is something you can fall back on if you HAVE to shield
but as corey predicted, i think because she possesses such a useful easy to land technique out of shield, we may have pigeon hole'd other aspects of her play

 

[BairJew]

^ Is it that impacting on samus player that they will sometimes only focus on UpB OoS and completely disregard other options they might have?

 

[Pi]

yea that's basically what i was saying
to a lot of people, samus players included, she's seen as a very defensive character perhaps because her UB OoS is sooo good

but she is also a character who can take a lot of hits, and recovery from a lot more than most other characters

which is a little strange to compare w/ her being a defensive character, the fact that she can take a hit should allow her to be more reckless

that's what i was going for at least

 

[McNinja]

^ Sooo your saying that if we took away UB OoS she would have the same amount of potential she did before with her ability to UB OoS? I have a feeling you might be looking at this a tad wrong lol if you take away the ability or move options away from a character then that character would have one less move option in matches therefore you would taking away something from the character which in turn decreases the potential or amount of options that character has in matches.

Oh I see what he's saying. Of course Samus has great potential without upB Oos, however without that option, she is not as good as she could be. Although she is still good.

 

[BairJew]

yea that's basically what i was saying
to a lot of people, samus players included, she's seen as a very defensive character perhaps because her UB OoS is sooo good

but she is also a character who can take a lot of hits, and recovery from a lot more than most other characters

which is a little strange to compare w/ her being a defensive character, the fact that she can take a hit should allow her to be more reckless

that's what i was going for at least

"every time a samus recovers a year passes by" is the famous saying

Ad that is odd she would be classified a defensive character when in a sense she has the ability to take risks and be more offensive. In this sense i'm surprised to see a lot more defensive caution samus players than fast offensive players.

Is this due to her ability to be better as a defender than an approaching character or is it because people have not yet broken out of the shell which is UpBOoS and opened their eyes to her vast potential as a character?

 

[Pi]

i just feel we may have pushed UB OoS too it's limits as is, i don't see much more potential with that specific move
so now maybe it's time to explore the other aspects of her play and start looking at her from a different perspective


@above

we'll see i guess
maybe it's time we brought a little something new to the metagame

 

[McNinja]

@JrJet, you should probably get about the same distance you get from a standard wavedash. I think.

 

[JrJet]

Alright thank you!! Any tips on what to practice when by myself?

 

[BairJew]

@Pi:
Ya I guess so, maybe the time has come for shift in style for her play.
I guess we just have to wait it out and see.

 

[McNinja]

Alright thank you!! Any tips on what to practice when by myself?

Ah. I asked that same question not too long ago. Pi responded to me by saying something along the lines of watch videos. Some good Samus's include Plup, Duck Ihsb, and of course, HugS. Watch videos of them and learn. Pi also said something about keeping a notebook to jot down things you see in videos.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

is marth or roys counter a defensive or an offensive option? it's both respectively

how is it offensive? it requires an attack from the opponent which basically makes it a defensive technique, even if used in an offensive position (like ledgehop counter)

 

[JrJet]

It to edgeguard would pretty much make it offensive ^^

 

[McNinja]

It to edgeguard would pretty much make it offensive ^^

Oh dang. I didn't think of that. Wouldn't that be considered offensive?

 

[Corigames]

SWD + Extrenderrrrrrr = ????
I would also like to point out that if you stand in the middle of YS or BF, the extender can grab someone from anywhere but the top platform. I mean, yes, it technically grabs them, but it won't pull them through and they'll just disengage.

The real problem with the extender is the fact that people can just see it and jump if they are on the ground. An opponent in the air can't be grabbed by it, so the just have to hop over to you and aerial. If you want to use it as a technique, then you should bait or force your enemy into using their DJ and then pull it out and home in on them. The other problem I see from using it is the fact that Samus doesn't have a whole lot she can do from it just as with the normal grab. You could Dthrow tech chase, possibly using the extender again, or Uthrow into an aerial, but I'm not sure if doing that is worth having to do the extender button combo once per life (It would be like if Zelda and to transform into Sheik every life. You have to fight without it until you have a large window to use it and, by then, it's probably not as worth it to spend time activating it as could be following up, edgeguarding, or charging up). I think if you are going to exploit her grab, we are going to have to stay on top of getting your lumps in and doing her karate-chop-action grab attack every time you grab. You should be doing this anyway mind you, but it's something I don't see Samus players do a lot... for some reason.

 

[Pi]

how is it offensive? it requires an attack from the opponent which basically makes it a defensive technique, even if used in an offensive position (like ledgehop counter)

'basically makes it a defensive technique' well what do you mean, are you here to negate what i say or not ;p

when you compare it to a strictly defensive option, like shielding
or a strictly offensive option, like falcon punch

it falls some where in the middle, no?

if you anticipate an attack, you may have been able to counter it with jab, or fair
or you may have been able to counter it with shield
but you can also counter it, with..counter


in a lot of instances though, aerial punishes from opponents aren't as devestating as their ground punishes

activating it i don't see much of a problem, since you can activate it in the air, you can ledge cancel it even and it'll activate

 

[Corigames]

I like out community of Samus players :3
Thought I'd just you guys know that we are ****ing cool people.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

See i view it a little differently. Some moves can be used both defensively and offensively, like say samus' ftilt. You can move forward and ftilt to take the opponent's space but you can use ftilt to stuff an incoming approach. The move can be classified depending on its use. Counter on the other hand can't possibly work unless the opponent attacks. The fact that it does damage back is inconsequential; punishment is not a form of offense. The attack part of counter is simply defensive punishment, the same way peach's wd back dtilt is defensive and if you get hit the following combo is neither offensive or defensive it is simply punishment.

 

[Corigames]

Is it considered defensive to edgeguard or is that offensive?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

tbh i consider edgeguarding mostly defensive.

 

[JrJet]

Is it considered defensive to edgeguard or is that offensive?

I'd say offensive

 

[Corigames]

This might be why you have a hard time explaining your position. Define offense and defense before arguing what moves project those characteristics. It may help your argument.

in a lot of instances though, aerial punishes from opponents aren't as devestating as their ground punishes

activating it i don't see much of a problem, since you can activate it in the air, you can ledge cancel it even and it'll activate

Getting punished still isn't good either way.
Also, I know that if you die without using your grapple, you can just activate it as you drop off the respawn platform while you're still invincible. Aside from that, I've been trying to activate it by doing the bomb-jump grapple cancel thing, but it's really hard to get the inputs in before it gets canceled.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

who is moving towards whom during an edgeguard. Just think about that

 

[Pi]

so sveet, counter, and shielding, are both exclusively defensive options?
in literal terms ic an see where ur coming from
but you can still apply pressure w/ defensive options
aka backing ur opponent into the corner via waveshielding, assuming they don't know how to/or don't want to, attack ur shield
same w/ counter

if you have your opponent scared of the counter, you can apply pressure indirectly through it, same as if you have ur opponent scared of ur ftilt

and classifying ftilt like that is weird because...is it based off of your intent, or what occured hwne you used it?

like let's say i ftilt the IC's shield
and then i go to Ftilt their shield again, but they wavedashed out and attempeted to dsmash me, but the ftilt hit them

was it an offensive ftilt because i was using it to attack their shield, or defensive because they messed up their wavedash dsmash timing and got hit by my ftilt essentially stuffing their approach?

all these things seem a bit arbitrary and useless to discuss though

i can see where ur coming from w/ counter, if looked at literally it can be used no other way than to counter an attack that gets thrown out

but there are many ways to use counter

sveet i think u can do a better example than that

 

[-Philip Coast Philip-]

Is it considered defensive to edgeguard or is that offensive?

I'd say offensive

a good defense is a good offense... and offense is capturing ground, defense is holding it. so it depends on whether you jump off the ledge or not.

and jrjet go copy everything you see here if you want to start out lol

I like out community of Samus players :3
Thought I'd just you guys know that we are ****ing cool people.

oh i don't know...

probably because we play a character who can shoot missiles, beams that freeze, go through walls, and incinerate enemies with plasma, can withstand acid, lava, maneuver through water like it's air, various types of scanning and x-ray-type vision, can morph into a ball that can even climb up walls and, oh, has an invincible spinning infinite jump attack, all of which she uses to exterminate intergalactic-threat pirate homebases while fending off deadly alien biolife all by herself.

oh, and she has an army of ancient and highly advanced race of bird ghosts covering her back. get screwed.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

so sveet, counter, and shielding, are both exclusively defensive options?
in literal terms ic an see where ur coming from
but you can still apply pressure w/ defensive options
aka backing ur opponent into the corner via waveshielding, assuming they don't know how to/or don't want to, attack ur shield
same w/ counter

This can be seen very well by analyzing the siege tank unit from starcraft. This unit is defensive in nature as it is cost-ineffective to attack into them. If you siege up against a defensive position of your opponent, does that make it offensive?

What happens when both players are being defensive? What happens when both players are being offensive? Usually one person will win out, does that make the situation into offense vs defense instead of defense vs defense?

Moving into position, taking space, is generally offensive, but once you are there and either holding your ground or retreating you are being defensive. In the tank example you are mostly defensive. Getting into position was offensive, but once situated your opponent must attack towards you to reclaim the space you have taken.

like let's say i ftilt the IC's shield
and then i go to Ftilt their shield again, but they wavedashed out and attempeted to dsmash me, but the ftilt hit them

The first one was offensive as you were taking space with it, however the second one you were defending the space you already had, which stuffed the offensive maneuver the opponent was attempting (moving forward and trying to dsmash).

 

[Pi]

interesting, never put thought into viewing defense/offense in such a way


so where would you classify: applying pressure & breaking pressure

 

[McNinja]

oh i don't know...

probably because we play a character who can shoot missiles, beams that freeze, go through walls, and incinerate enemies with plasma, can withstand acid, lava, maneuver through water like it's air, various types of scanning and x-ray-type vision, can morph into a ball that can even climb up walls and, oh, has an invincible spinning infinite jump attack, all of which she uses to exterminate intergalactic-threat pirate homebases while fending off deadly alien biolife all by herself.

oh, and she has an army of ancient and highly advanced race of bird ghosts covering her back. get screwed.

Yes.

 

[Corigames]

probably because we play a character who can shoot missiles

Spoiler

, beams that freeze, go through walls,

and incinerate enemies with plasma

Spoiler

, can withstand acid, lava, maneuver through water like it's air, various types of scanning and x-ray-type vision,

can morph into a ball

Spoiler

that can even climb up walls and, oh, has an invincible spinning infinite jump attack, all of which she uses to exterminate intergalactic-threat pirate homebases while fending off deadly alien biolife all by herself.
oh, and she has an army of ancient and highly advanced race of bird ghosts covering her back. get screwed.

Too bad she can only do that much in smash XD
If she played at all like in Super Metroid... at all...

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

interesting, never put thought into viewing defense/offense in such a way


so where would you classify: applying pressure & breaking pressure

applying pressure and breaking pressure can be in the form of both defense and offense (for both).

For example, shine on a shield is defensive since it's purpose is to prevent shield grabs (and sometimes catch other things like jumps) but the initial jump in with a nair or dair is offensive in nature. Staying on the shield is generally defensive (holding your ground) as well as spacing away from grab/attack range. Probably the only offensive thing you can do while already on the shield is to gain even better positioning by advancing to the back of the shield.

For breaking pressure the examples are pretty simple. Attacking out of shield is trying to break the defense with offense while rolling would be a pretty good example of retreating/defense. Shield grab kinda falls into both categories, since you are holding your ground but at the same time making a direct approach to attack your opponent. In this case, the shielding aspect is defensive however the grab aspect is offensive.

Does any of this classification really matter? Not a whole lot. In general terms, being offensive from a disadvantaged situation is a bad idea. Thats why people get ***** for shield grabbing a lot or attacking from the ledge. Defense kinda is the strongest in a confrontation thats why indirect offense dominates the metagame. Approaching by taking space without attacking or by attacking in ways that leave defensive options available.

 

[Corigames]

And then you harass their min line and tech straight to lurkers + devourers, push in, and double expand. Then, Sauron Zerg your way to victory.

Wait... I mean... missiles. Yeah.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Whats a lurker?

 

[Pi]

an apple i think

 

[McNinja]

So devourers are oranges?