EXTENNNDUURRRRRR (samus gen. disc.)

[Fortress | Sveet]

Banelings must be limes then

 

[Corigames]

Whats a lurker?

Spoiler

This is why I can't play SC2

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

im kidding i played BW since '01

 

[Corigames]

I figured, but I don't have my lurkers, so I can't play SC2. I refuse.

Also, Samus. Shield pressure... attacking/defending... extenderrrrrrrrrr... Ftilts... back on subject. Sorry for the derail.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

But you have infestors which are even better than lurkers

 

[bubbaking]

Recap on NINE pages' (but only 4 days) worth of posts!!!

Wow... WOOOOW!!! I missed a lot! Dang...don't worry, though. I'm all caught up, read EVERYTHING (took me two days)! >:D I'm gonna reply to some things that were never answered or addressed, or so it seemed. Trying really hard to not revive any topics that were already closed, so please don't flame meeeeeee! :-s And btw, is there any way to get txt updates from Smashboards (I don't have a smartphone)?

@3 Isn't wavelanding in place on a platform the same as AI in place on a platform?

I believe wavelanding is 4 frames of landing animation while AI is ALSO 4 frames of landing animation. The difference is that in AI, the uair can happen up to 2 frames after passing thru the platform (total of 6 frames), while in wavelanding, more frames are possible before air dodging, so wavelanding could potentially be longer.

Yeah after playing friendlies @ Linguini's tourney and doing decent at nearly every matchup EXCEPT Falcon, then watching Mango nuke one of my inspirations for using Samus- I think I'll just alt Sheik for the matchup.

Yeah, I'm also a Samus and Sheik main, so tbh, I'll probably use Sheik when I can against Falcon, but you know, you won't always get the choice. Let's say your opponent has more than one main, they CP the stage and then CP Falcon against ur Samus, you'd better know the MU by that time. Honestly, I like Samus against Fox more than Sheik, but that's besides the point...

I'm thinking about saving up and moving to a more smashing place, any suggestions?

Come to ze Island that is Long aka LONG ISLAND! )

(the analogy of course is that 'mango' could make anyone look that bad.)

Lolz, you should have used this vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6WvET6YM2c
or maybe this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_VNRZt71mg
XDDD

To me, Falcon is favored, but doesn't counter Samus.

Eh, it's still a counter, but it's by no means unwinnable on Samus's part. Personally, I find the MU as hard as vs Marth.

because it seems, from what we've seen, is that if you're a good player, you'll be able to keep on winning over time and change (isai, ken, m2k, gimpyfish*). i think the only real difference now is that there's a far harder entrance exam to get back in.

interesting.

Spoiler

*...>_>

Hrmmmm, gimpyfish....(<_<') Btw, he's going to Apex. Time to see what retirement has done to my old smash hero.

The Falcon/Samus MU is the same as it has always been, IMO. Falcon has gotten a little more technical, a little faster, and a little more gimpier, but the same stuff the applied before applies now. He will never approach from the ground unless it's a grab or raptor boost (Even that is very sparingly), so you can almost always expect him to approach straight from the air or from a platform above you. The biggest thing to worry about is falling for empty jumps and either getting grabbed or dtilted when he lands, which leads to getting knocked in the air and *****, or misreading and leaving yourself open, which has a similar effect.

Also, gentlemans. OoS jabs by Falcon can be devastating, in my experience.

Well, we've gotten more techy, faster, and gimpier as well, so it balances out. ^_^ I heard oos jab and my ears perked up. How do I do that? Are the jabs JC'd?

to be more specific, nair is the orange
and as we all know
oranges > apples.

Umm, well if apples are everywhere, but oranges are more delectable w/ a little work, wouldn't nair be the apple and dair would be the orange? :/

Oh well if its start frame no doubt about it that nair comes out first, dair is slow coming out definitely. It just seems slower when you shffl nair in comparison to dair.

Just to clear up any misunderstandings, all of Samus's aerials have 7 frames of landing lag if L-cancelled. Thus, they are all technically the same "speed" if SHFFL'd.

When I DI Uair and Knee up and towards it seems to be pretty effective.

Really? Whenever I struggle against the knee (hold towards Falcon), it usually earns me another knee...

she's got two types of missiles, pfmc, bombs, bomb recovery, grapple recovery, grapple grab, extender, swd, up+b oos, charge shot, and a slow roll. and she's floaty.

What's pfmc? O_o

[edit]can she do it? vs fox, falco, marth, ic, peach a definite yes
vs shiek, falcon, ganon, puff i am unsure, not doubting, just need more testing.

Ganon and puff are definite yes's (what's the plural of yes? XD), IMO. Marth was the one I was unsure of before, but from your past inputs, I've seen that the MU isn't that bad. This may be oversimplifying, but I see Ganon as one slow brute. Yes, we all know that, unless she's wavedashing, Samus is kinda slow, but I think she's pretty speedy compared to the Evil King. Thus, I try to abuse my "agility" and if he's trying to stay in shield, I get more liberal w/ grabbing. Grabbing seems much better against Ganon than against other chars. Also, zoning w/ missiles is always a good option, especially on big stages like DL64. Tbh, i think CPing stages plays a big part in this MU, and since Samus's recovery is infinitely better than Ganon's (and she's HEAVIER ^_^), she has a clear upper hand on these stages. Only problem is, he has that 'Falcon uair'... :/

Wheeee projectile data. 361 = 44 btw.

...........what does that mean? (-_-')

i just feel we may have pushed UB OoS too it's limits as is, i don't see much more potential with that specific move
so now maybe it's time to explore the other aspects of her play and start looking at her from a different perspective


@above

we'll see i guess
maybe it's time we brought a little something new to the metagame

For the most part, I really view her upB as the trump card vs shine pressure and FC'd aerials from Peach. As you said earlier, Samus is pretty much a tank and can kinda 'muscle' thru a lotta hits. As such, I really think a greater focus on CC's and less on shielding is necessary. Maybe this is already well-known, or it's a bad idea, idk, but I just thought I'd put that out there.

who is moving towards whom during an edgeguard. Just think about that

I like to think of it as this: edgeguarding is defensive while gimping is offensive. On the recovery side, I really think recovering is also defensive since the recoverer is simply trying to survive but, depending on how he acts, the recovery can become offensive or remain defensive.

Does any of this classification really matter? Not a whole lot. In general terms, being offensive from a disadvantaged situation is a bad idea. Thats why people get ***** for shield grabbing a lot or attacking from the ledge. Defense kinda is the strongest in a confrontation thats why indirect offense dominates the metagame. Approaching by taking space without attacking or by attacking in ways that leave defensive options available.

Yes, this is true, not only in Smash (all three of them), but in most other fighters as well. A defensive playstyle soundly trumps a purely offensive one, and in the end, you end up w/ two defensive players who try to capitalize the most on their opponents' mistakes. I think this is how the metagame of fighting, in general, has evolved. One of the only games where this isn't necessarily true, IMO, is MVC3. Yes, defensive play, such as zoning, stands a chance there (especially w/ the arrival of Ultimate), but in the end, rush-down seems to rule all.

Plz, plz, plzzzzzz do not get upset at this INSANELY long post. :S I had to do it or it would have ended up as a decapost... :/

 

[Pi]

^only thing i want to correct you on is what you said about aerial interupting vs. wavelanding
wavelanding has 10 frames of landing lag + however many frames of airdodging it took you too land.
Aerial interutping cancelst he upair in the first 1 or 2 frames of the move, and then gives your character 4 frames of landing lag so it's faster, at least twice as fast

 

[Geist]

Really? Whenever I struggle against the knee (hold towards Falcon), it usually earns me another knee...

Well at low%, yeah, it's going to lead into another knee.
At mid-high % it functions as survival DI and since Samus is a floaty, she tends to travel higher vertically out of Falcon's reach.

 

[BairJew]

Originally Posted by BairJew
Oh well if its start frame no doubt about it that nair comes out first, dair is slow coming out definitely. It just seems slower when you shffl nair in comparison to dair.

Originally Posted by bubbaking
Just to clear up any misunderstandings, all of Samus's aerials have 7 frames of landing lag if L-cancelled. Thus, they are all technically the same "speed" if SHFFL'd.

*Alright Mcninja where you at?? our long class by class debate which lasted over a week has now officially been settled by the all wise and knowing bubbaking, as Emeril would say "BAM!"

 

[McNinja]

@ the conversation about shffl speed: Yeah exactly. Are any of those moved actually used in shffl's? Not usually. Therefore shffl'd ariels don't really have a set speed, unless you are talking about startup lag and such. @ the conversation about defence without shield: I think what HugS was saying was things more like baiting and dodging, right?

I already said ariels don't have a set "speed". Therefore shffl'd ariels aren't faster than one another. The only thing that would make Dair slower is because of the start up lag. Which is what I was arguing.

 

[Geist]

itt: semantics

 

[-Philip Coast Philip-]

9 pages? forum noob bra, turn on 40posts pp in your settings, it's the way to go.

pfmc = platform missile canceling.

also pi is delicious today.

 

[BairJew]

@MsNinja False. We don't include start up lag, start up lag includes us. Therefore in the context beseeched in the situation ShfflDair=ShfflNair=****=DairCO's=NairCO's=MoreRape=EpicWin=Ness therefore Ness's Bair is the best in melee argument solved by the Problem Solvers. *Flashing Neon Lights* Bairjew appears in Hollywood for one night only as the master of arguments. *Curtains Close*

 

[abcool]

http://youtu.be/mI11nSpJHaI Around 3:05 is a perfect example of me using bomb wavedash to something. Sheik is so stupid, but it seems to catch most shield happy sheiks offguard.

 

[Corigames]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mI11nSpJHaI#t=3m02s

Take a video url
Add "#t=" to the end
Then add "XmYYs" where X is the minute you want and Y is the second value (including the 10's digit)
Abrakadabra, you have just linked a video to a specific time! I just found this out last night. Thought I would share.

 

[Geist]

you can also right click on the video and click on "Copy URL from this time"
lol

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I like to think of it as this: edgeguarding is defensive while gimping is offensive. On the recovery side, I really think recovering is also defensive since the recoverer is simply trying to survive but, depending on how he acts, the recovery can become offensive or remain defensive.

Disagree, gimping can be either. Gimping is just edgeguarding at low percents. There are offensive edgeguards though, such as shine spikes and some gimps like dthrow->jump off immediately (with marth). In the latter example, dthrow->dtilt->jump off is more punishment based since its pretty much true combos (also, most people stay on stage after dthrow->dtilt). Countering a firefox and then falling off to finish them is defensive at the counter stage and simply punishment after that (not offensive).

Recovery is almost always offensive but in the most vulnerable sense. When you are recovering your goal is to slip through your opponent's defenses in order to get to a positioning (such as grabbing the edge).

Yes, this is true, not only in Smash (all three of them), but in most other fighters as well. A defensive playstyle soundly trumps a purely offensive one, and in the end, you end up w/ two defensive players who try to capitalize the most on their opponents' mistakes. I think this is how the metagame of fighting, in general, has evolved. One of the only games where this isn't necessarily true, IMO, is MVC3. Yes, defensive play, such as zoning, stands a chance there (especially w/ the arrival of Ultimate), but in the end, rush-down seems to rule all.

Defense doesn't trump offense by definition and many games have different ratios of which is stronger and often based on match-ups. In terms of metagame evolution, it is common for defense to get stronger as time goes by. This is because defense takes a solid knowledge of the game, in mechanics, in theory and situationally as well (X beats Y). In the early days of a metagame offense will usually be much stronger since the burden of knowledge and execution is on the defender but in good games this will generally equalize or at least leave many strategies available.

 

[abcool]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mI11nSpJHaI#t=3m02s

Take a video url
Add "#t=" to the end
Then add "XmYYs" where X is the minute you want and Y is the second value (including the 10's digit)
Abrakadabra, you have just linked a video to a specific time! I just found this out last night. Thought I would share.

Thanks man, that helps alot.

 

[bubbaking]

Disagree, gimping can be either. Gimping is just edgeguarding at low percents. There are offensive edgeguards though, such as shine spikes and some gimps like dthrow->jump off immediately (with marth). In the latter example, dthrow->dtilt->jump off is more punishment based since its pretty much true combos (also, most people stay on stage after dthrow->dtilt). Countering a firefox and then falling off to finish them is defensive at the counter stage and simply punishment after that (not offensive).

Recovery is almost always offensive but in the most vulnerable sense. When you are recovering your goal is to slip through your opponent's defenses in order to get to a positioning (such as grabbing the edge).

Hmmm, I'm seeing what you're saying, and I'm not saying you're wrong or anything, but here's my opinion on the issue. The concept of gimping means you're actively trying to remove a stock earlier than 'necessary'. As such, that line of thinking is generally offensive. Also, I'm kinda factoring the stocks into my concept of defense and offense. Thus, removing a stock, and working mostly towards that, is offensive, and defending a stock, which would include giving damage to the opponent in order to do so, would be defensive. By this definition, I'd say that recovery is defensive just because the opponent is trying to protect his stock and is not necessarily working towards taking yours, e.g. he's already up, say, 2 stocks so he doesn't care too much. However, this recovery becomes offensive the moment he starts working actively towards taking ur stock, i.e. stage spiking, aiming to give u damage, killing at the ledge.

Defense doesn't trump offense by definition and many games have different ratios of which is stronger and often based on match-ups. In terms of metagame evolution, it is common for defense to get stronger as time goes by. This is because defense takes a solid knowledge of the game, in mechanics, in theory and situationally as well (X beats Y). In the early days of a metagame offense will usually be much stronger since the burden of knowledge and execution is on the defender but in good games this will generally equalize or at least leave many strategies available.

You're probably right; I think I spoke out of turn earlier. However, I'm finding that newer games, such as SF IV (well, at least before it became "dive kick fighters") and Brawl (and more) are generously rewarding defense very early in their respective metagames. Even MK now functions best when playing defensively.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Well IMO Blazblue and GuiltyGear both favor offense much more than defense.

 

[commonyoshi]

Why does like every character get a stickied hitbox thread except Samus?

 

[McNinja]

Why does like every character get a stickied hitbox thread except Samus?

I was wondering the same thing. I'm suprised Pi hasn't made one.

 

[Pi]

i did all her hitboxes already, but the doods in charge of the thread didn't turn them into gif's yet

i uploaded them all to filefront though if you want to DL them you can
i'll bump the thread i made Zzz

 

[-Philip Coast Philip-]

Why does like every character get a stickied hitbox thread except Samus?

we already know all of them.

why make a thread about it.

/done

frickin hell people
stop posting in this thread until it's released

lol pi seriously i finally clicked on it just now just because i kept seeing new posts in it.

^new mango cv hype in vid forum

also i don't think i'll be posting much here anymore for awhile.. until theprime sends me those tapes or something.. and then after that.. never unless i post a combo video... which won't be happening until like next summer or never... or until spring break at least... or until ocr finally releases their mmx like 70-track album WHICH IS ALREADY COMPLETE AND JUST SITTING THERE FOR I DON'T KNOW WHY SHOOT THEM but i was planning on using a couple of their songs if i ever did make one... yeah.

as a tribute just to let you guys know i did a harder run on super metroid last night just for kicks, no boss/miniboss run up until i got to crocomire by taking an alt route back to the main shaft in norfair, and then i killed kraid with charged ice/wave/spazer beam and got the varia suit finally. i could have gotten x-ray w/o using grapple, and the grapple itself, but i didn't want an extra icon getting in the way of my weapon selection, so i just went to those areas and pretended to get them, and made my way back just to see if i could.

what techs can you guys do? mine included
-no varia-suit/no grapp'e run through norfair, getting speed booster and killing crocomire afterward
-no varia reserve tank across to the left from the speed booster rooms
-no varia+mockball ice beam
-no varia/no grapple wave beam
-mockball early super missiles (first and easiest, skips spore spawn..)
-no varia grapple beam
-no grapple beam x-ray visor
^involves infinite bomb jumping+slight diagonal bomb jumping out of a jump over a pit of spikes only allowing the initial hit or you won't have enough energy to make it back
-no e-tank 'gauntlet' run (that place above where your ship lands, to the left, not too hard but can be difficult)
-wall jump to early power bombs
-no grapple entrance into crashed ship (that's where i stopped last night)
and some misc. quick speed booster charges here and there
but i've also done most of maridia w/o gravity suit, so slow and boring at times.

pretty much did most of the stuff seen in red scarlet's nbmb run with some extra flairs and stopping before maridia.

edit: also one of my favorite ones to do, quick dash jump through door to wall jump off invisible single block to get two missile tanks in crateria. this is the room right after you get you second missile tank in the game, where you power bomb a bunch of blocks in the way, and you go up a long single-block-wide shaft and then go left across an invisible bridge to two missile tanks... i couldn't find a clip of it, but it's a fun one.

also anyone ever have fun with the space-time beam? i think i racked up over 100 super missiles once

second edit: lol lanowen found your yt channel, wth is up with that 13% nbmb run, wow.

third edit: holy f gt code wtf is this how come i haven't heard of this wowww.

if only something amazing like this happened to samus in melee.

 

[Lanowen]

Yeah if you haven't seen cpadolf0's run, what the ****. I think he did it in 12 minutes or something iirc. Glitch past EVERYTHING.

Have you heard of the golden torizo room glitch? You can get all the beams and some items if you enter the room while he's still alive I think, while holding A+B+X+Y, but you gotta pause and turn off plasma or spazer before you let go to not crash by shooting var beam.

I just learned of this not too long ago, I thought it was kinda cool, just did it the first time myself not to long ago the last time I played. I kinda skipped the plasma beam along with all the other items lol.

 

[-Philip Coast Philip-]

ohhh i just saw an older version of that yeah. seriously wth x-ray climb-glitching through the boss door lol.

yeah the 'gt' glitch.. that sounds crazy. i haven't tried it, mostly because i never play far enough into the game to get to lower norfair, i just dink around with fun stuff elsewhere.. but yeah, i heard you can get over 130% that way or something.

last major glitch i used the most was the space-time beam, that one's fun because it stacks.

 

[Lanowen]

Ah gt, true say.

I guess we were in the same boat, I think it might have been recently discovered. Maybe that's why

 

[bubbaking]

Well IMO Blazblue and GuiltyGear both favor offense much more than defense.

Hmmm, I agree w/ you about Blazblue, but Blazblue is incredibly similar to Marvel (revolver/gatling combos, ridicilously long combo strings). I don't mean to offend anyone, and this is by no means objective, but over here, the general opinion is that both games are kinda bad... :/ Now Guilty Gear, that's a great game! :D But I'm not gonna say that one favors offense over defense. Yes, combos are important in that game, but not so much as Blazblue, and I think it's more balanced when it comes to the breakdown between rushdown chars (mainly offensive) and set-up chars (mainly defensive), something that Blazblue can't really boast cuz it doesn't really have any set-up chars.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Yeah i played a lot of BBCS and then found out the game was really boring. I played Hazama and each round was basically make 1-2 RPS guesses then autopilot a combo for half their health then do that one more time before they do it to you. Street Figher is a much cooler FG imo.

 

[Geist]

BBCS does a good job of concealing its simplicity imo
It's fun for cheap thrills and it doesn't take much effort to get respectably good at.
Also I'd count Carl or Mu-12 as setup characters

But yeah, Samus stuff.
Can't you sequence break in Metroid Prime? I can't remember and I'm pretty sure I saw people running around with the Plasma beam fighting Thardus on youtube or some jazz like that

 

[-Philip Coast Philip-]

yeah tons of crazy stuff. (i'd even say metroid prime probably wins most intense speed run award, as there are some really crazy tricks in that game that require such absolute precision...)

i want to say a bunch, but really, just check out all the technique videos on metroid2002, people find the craziest stuff.

like how to kill flaahgra with just morph ball bombs (actually quite tame relatively, but it sounds cool).


edit: oh lanowen i thought i replied to you earlier today... guess my post didn't show, or i just hit the preview button and forgot to post.. seems unlikely but... something about me saying i was just saying 'gt' to sound cool and sly, and then i linked to hipster ariel telling eric nvm he wouldn't know what a dinglehopper is anyway.

 

[TheZhuKeeper]

So I just watched some Plup vids and...

he's got himself a new fan.



But seriously, he plays my vision of a perfect Samus. Very fluid, clever punishes, etc. Can't wait to see how he fairs against people at nationals.

 

[McNinja]

So I just watched some Plup vids and...

he's got himself a new fan.



But seriously, he plays my vision of a perfect Samus. Very fluid, clever punishes, etc. Can't wait to see how he fairs against people at nationals.

That's the common reaction after a persons first Plup video.

 

[Violence]

I also want to play a few games with him.

Do you know if Hugo will be attending APEX?

 

[Pi]

HugS said that unless he gets some legit training before apex he won't show
makes me a sad dishwasher

dair has +2 advantage on shields (frame perfect)
nair has a +1
sweetspot bair has +1

utilt is our least punishable tilt on shields, having only a -10 or -13
whereas ftilt is -17 or -18

utilt is only 5 frames slower than ftilt assuming you IASA it

utilt might **** links shield, offering only a 2-5 frame window to be UB'd and a 3 to 6 frame window to be grabbed (assuming you buffer a spot dodge

 

[bubbaking]

Yeah i played a lot of BBCS and then found out the game was really boring. I played Hazama and each round was basically make 1-2 RPS guesses then autopilot a combo for half their health then do that one more time before they do it to you. Street Figher is a much cooler FG imo.

Marvel combos, you gotta love 'em... -_- Uh, what does FG mean? :/

dair has +2 advantage on shields (frame perfect)
nair has a +1
sweetspot bair has +1

utilt is our least punishable tilt on shields, having only a -10 or -13
whereas ftilt is -17 or -18

utilt is only 5 frames slower than ftilt assuming you IASA it

utilt might **** links shield, offering only a 2-5 frame window to be UB'd and a 3 to 6 frame window to be grabbed (assuming you buffer a spot dodge

So, if utilt is so much better than ftilt, why is it often said that Samus's ftilt is mostly unpunishable by most of the cast and should be used often? I know it comes out fast, but there's probably more to it than that.

 

[MonkUnit]

Fg means fighting game.

 

[bubbaking]

Lolz, wow, that was obvious. <.< *derp*

 

[Pi]

don't get me wrong, ftilt has it's advantages
it comes out faster, and is easier to space, and it feels more natural to ftilt a shield than utilt one, as samus
and visually it may look like ftilt has more reach than utilt, when in reality if it does, it's not by much

at the very least i think utilt/ftilt would be an important mixup vs. shields if your opponent gets comfortable punishing one or the other

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Utilt is an amazing move, it has such low lag. Ftilt is great because of its startup. Both are great moves, but being aggressive with utilt seems risky. But risk is the name of the game