EXTENNNDUURRRRRR (samus gen. disc.)

[-Philip Coast Philip-]

alright red sparrow, i guess i was wrong to say it in that way in the second part of my post, sorry. and while i do think i could defend a critique of the spacing and move choice in that video, i guess i can respond to your argument of move counters, but here i'll state that i'm less confident about making a point than i am just bringing about questions.

-can't the uair be countered with some ground move though?

-going for a grab without mindgames with samus is usually a dangerous idea in general.

-wd oos can be a bait still.

-i think hugs' argument cleared up the jump debate.

-can the screw attack really be cc'd from the ground? or di'd that well to be able to recover and attack in time?

i guess that's it. but, i was mostly saying that you couldn't make your argument from the video itself. that aside, i would still not say the matchup is that bad, but i have no reasons to back that up right now, other than that, i don't think falcon's abilities are as hyped up as they are, but i think samus' playstyle has to change a fair amount, relatively, i suppose.

and coreygames...eh... just drop it man... yeah you can make a point about wes or the way he's acting or something.. but what do you want from it? the points been made; let's just move on with it.

and geist, i was saying that you can't use mango as proof of a matchup...but then the debate went into a moveset matchup.

 

[Corigames]

By bringing it up again, you provoke me to respond and make it harder for the topic to disappear :/

His Uair has some amazing reach on it just as it comes out. I wouldn't be surprised if it out-ranged her Ftilt, Fsmash, and Dsmash. That said, if you're on the ground it should take priority over his leg if you were to hit it as the move comes out unless it has some special property to it.
I'm not sure if you can legitimately CC the screw attack, but on more than one occasion I've had crouching enemies hit the ground after the first hit of the UpB as if they smash DI'ed out of it as soon as it hit. Maybe it was luck or maybe it was the fact they were crouching, but there's definitely plenty of time for them to recover before you when that situation arises. Due to how the screw attack's hit boxes are set up, I don't think anyone can plan to DI a certain way to break out of it. I won't say that it's impossible, but I find that highly unlikely.

The Falcon/Samus MU is the same as it has always been, IMO. Falcon has gotten a little more technical, a little faster, and a little more gimpier, but the same stuff the applied before applies now. He will never approach from the ground unless it's a grab or raptor boost (Even that is very sparingly), so you can almost always expect him to approach straight from the air or from a platform above you. The biggest thing to worry about is falling for empty jumps and either getting grabbed or dtilted when he lands, which leads to getting knocked in the air and *****, or misreading and leaving yourself open, which has a similar effect.

Also, gentlemans. OoS jabs by Falcon can be devastating, in my experience.

 

[ThePrime]

if u wanna talk about falcon MU lets talk about doing some up-angled ftilts. They stuff the early bits of falcon's nair/uair meaning it's an amazing tool to halt his approach. Comparing to utilt the up-angled ftilt comes out way faster

 

[abcool]

if u wanna talk about falcon MU lets talk about doing some up-angled ftilts. They stuff the early bits of falcon's nair/uair meaning it's an amazing tool to halt his approach. Comparing to utilt the up-angled ftilt comes out way faster

That does work and it also works on peach if she doesn't float to high up. Even on spacies if you jab cancel their shield and they try to jump out you can up-angle ftlit and catch them offguard.

As for sparrow guy man you make alot of matchups for Samus seem impossible. Seriously one time ago when i was in here you made Peach seem like the worst matchup, then Sheik(Which i agree with) Now you are making Falcon seem impossible to beat. I think you lost all your confidence in the character as a whole or maybe sheik your (secondary?!) feels so much better to use, you may be asking yourself why use samus when sheik is soo much better.

Samus might just be a character most of us only use so, saying she is 80-20 to falcon isn't exactly helping the situation. We have to dig deeper if we wanna stand a chance in todays falcon/peach/sheik metagame.


Point is most samus mains knows using a better character may work, but because there might be some light in all the darkness we have to use what we got; even though it might not be much or just one good tactic.

 

[BairJew]

Is Samus's Nair better than Dair. I could be wrong but it seemed that Dair was faster and more efficient when LC'd and Nair was floatier and more situation.

 

[Ørn]

^ Apples and oranges.

 

[Pi]

to be more specific, nair is the orange
and as we all know
oranges > apples.

 

[BairJew]

Are we sure about this, in my opinion Apples >/= Oranges

 

[Ørn]

Hmm, I like both apples and oranges.

The apple is usually just a good all-around piece of fruit that I can eat at any time, but I generally like oranges a little better. The problem with oranges is that you need to peel them, which takes time. However, I think the reward in general is better, and oranges go really well with a bunch of other mov-- err, dishes.

 

[THE RED SPARROW]

Did me playing s2j show nothing? I'm a relatively unknown samus player and I was able to take a game. I was also able to make the matches that I lost close and not complete blowouts. Samus has all the tools necessary to defeat falcon, it's not easy or anything but it's still definitely possible.

Oh your match was awesome, no doubt. S2J played well but certainly wasn't abusing all the tools he had at his disposal. A descending Uair could've negated a lot of air-to-air confrontations. Like Pi said before, it's not only about what you can to do to Falcon, but the fact that Falcon has a slew of options in almost every scenario. It's why you had to make 3-4 positive reads to ensure a kill, while S2J could just do a shield drop Uair into Knee and kill you @ 80+%.

It's really obvious that you are you using wes vs. mango as a reference, seeing one of the best players in the world known for READS and not blindly abusing their character advantage isn't going to tell you anything about the character matchup

Mango doesn't survive only on reads but also on smart decisions, like using the best moves for certain situations. Like I said before, I recognize Wes's rustiness needs A LOT of varnishing, but many of the decisions Mango made as far as approaches really safe because he spaced it that way. The same can't be said of Samus's normals, however. Samus has no safe way of contesting most of Falcon's normals if spaced properly and any misread *hard* punish (F-Smash, D-Smash) comes at the risk of a *hard* counter from Falcon.

 

[BairJew]

Hmm, I like both apples and oranges.

The apple is usually just a good all-around piece of fruit that I can eat at any time, but I generally like oranges a little better. The problem with oranges is that you need to peel them, which takes time. However, I think the reward in general is better, and oranges go really well with a bunch of other mov-- err, dishes.

This is true, but if you've ever had Grandma's famous apple pie, it tastes a lot better than any dish you could ever make with a measly orange. And Apples go with quite a few err-dishes as well.

 

[McNinja]

Hmm, I like both apples and oranges.

The apple is usually just a good all-around piece of fruit that I can eat at any time, but I generally like oranges a little better. The problem with oranges is that you need to peel them, which takes time. However, I think the reward in general is better, and oranges go really well with a bunch of other mov-- err, dishes.

Greatest response ever. Oh and can somebody tell Bairjew that Nair is faster than Dair? He doesn't seem to believe me.

 

[MonkUnit]

Nair hits frame 4 or 5 IIRC. Dair doesn't hit until frame 15+ or something.

 

[McNinja]

Thank you. The only time Dair is better than Nair imo, is when you know you can hit them with Dair. Mindgames son! Dair has much more combo opportunity than Nair does. However, there's a lot more lag with Dair. So use with caution.

 

[BairJew]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oA-ifPOZjbk
Dair: Stays out for only 5 frames : Nair: Stays out for 25 frames.
Very confused how Nair is quicker but alright son.

(Stays out*=How long hitbox stays out for)

 

[Violence]

Oh your match was awesome, no doubt. S2J played well but certainly wasn't abusing all the tools he had at his disposal. A descending Uair could've negated a lot of air-to-air confrontations. Like Pi said before, it's not only about what you can to do to Falcon, but the fact that Falcon has a slew of options in almost every scenario. It's why you had to make 3-4 positive reads to ensure a kill, while S2J could just do a shield drop Uair into Knee and kill you @ 80+%.



Mango doesn't survive only on reads but also on smart decisions, like using the best moves for certain situations. Like I said before, I recognize Wes's rustiness needs A LOT of varnishing, but many of the decisions Mango made as far as approaches really safe because he spaced it that way. The same can't be said of Samus's normals, however. Samus has no safe way of contesting most of Falcon's normals if spaced properly and any misread *hard* punish (F-Smash, D-Smash) comes at the risk of a *hard* counter from Falcon.

You know who loves to uair spam vs floaties? Hax. You know who's lost to Darrell(though with Johns), and Hugo? Hax. You know who ****s all over Hugo? Johnny.

Trust me. Uair isn't as good as you think it is, especially with good DI. Wes was caught off guard and ****ed up his DI multiple times. It's really not as amazing as you're making it out to be.

 

[Geist]

It's obvious that you have a very different definition of 'quicker' BairJew

 

[BairJew]

Nair hits frame 4 or 5 IIRC. Dair doesn't hit until frame 15+ or something.

Yeah Dair pops out at frame 18, just confused how dair wouldn't be quicker if LC it seems like a quick hitbox, whereas Nair seems like a floatier move that seems slower imo when LC'd.

 

[Violence]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oA-ifPOZjbk
Dair: Stays out for only 5 frames : Nair: Stays out for 25 frames.
Very confused how Nair is quicker but alright son.

(Stays out*=How long hitbox stays out for)

I believe he's referring to the start frame. Besides, how long the move stays out for isn't always that relevant, you can just ff lc in most situations, no?

EDIT: I r too slow.

 

[BairJew]

I believe he's referring to the start frame. Besides, how long the move stays out for isn't always that relevant, you can just ff lc in most situations, no?

Oh well if its start frame no doubt about it that nair comes out first, dair is slow coming out definitely. It just seems slower when you shffl nair in comparison to dair.

 

[Pi]

@ duck you played well
but i'm just gonna point out that you grabbed s2j like 3 times more than he grabbed you.


about falcons combo's

how do you DI his stuff, how do you DI his dthrow, his upthrow, his nair & uair

 

[Geist]

Just some observations, but
I find if I DI his dthrow down and away it doesn't auto combo into massive amounts of **** at 0%
I'm not sure about Nair, but I'm inclined to say the same thing, assuming you're at relatively low percent and you absolutely can't CC.
When I DI Uair and Knee up and towards it seems to be pretty effective.
As soon as he hits you in the air you should just be reactive in general when you're DIing. It should be relatively easy to tell which move he's going to throw out depending on your positions. I'm still experimenting with what's appropriate :/

 

[Pi]

^ty i will try those out

Extended grab

Total: 94
Grab: 18-41 or 42-57 or 59-94
You must press A during the grab
window to start grabbing; the grab
will continue the remainder of the
grab window . The grab-box is larger
until and including the last frame
before a big flash in the beam (for
the first grab window only)

Flashes: 21, 24, 27, 30, 33, 36, 39
Press L to home in

this looks, amazing, in AR lmao
i'll probably upload a video of it t...**** i don't have dazzle

if you activate the last grab hitbox, (which might be the most effective), anything that touches the end of ur grapple gets grabbed, it's ****in awesome lmao,

 

[-Philip Coast Philip-]

dang, just posted a beast of a response to that armada unleashed vid..

so i'll post more on this later (i could even turn it into a thread), but what are your guys' thoughts on the next successful style of gameplay for samus? or, even possibly, the best possible playstyle with her?

i guess it's not something i'm really expecting to be answered. i have my own answer to it, or least an idea of one.

but it seems more about really laying out what has been covered with samus, in terms of playstyles and types of move choices. starting the from the beginning, discovering her capabilities, then going fast and technical, and hugs-style, and now ihsb style i guess you could say.

yeah, guess i don't really know what i'm asking here - it's pretty open ended. but for starters, and as a mindset, i've always thought of samus' playstyle as able to be unique from the others, and so she should be played unconventionally as well, even counter-intuitively at points.

she's got two types of missiles, pfmc, bombs, bomb recovery, grapple recovery, grapple grab, extender, swd, up+b oos, charge shot, and a slow roll. and she's floaty.

and though it sounds more idealistic than i'm making it out to be in my mind, it seems, at least, with this variety of moves, it seems best to go against the typical playing-style mindset and go for what utilizes her moves the best. and we've been trying to do this, but have we pursued it as aggressively as we should? jiggs does it, with moves like rest and being floaty, peach does it, with floating and turnips, fox and falco do it, with the shine and grabbing, and falcon does it, with moonwalking and grabbing.

CAN SAMUZ DO IT?

 

[Pi]

quick opinion on that w/o much throught going into it so excuse me if i present obvious flaws but here goes

hugs playstyle is a solid base strategy for samus, it's very safe, precise, and is a great anti pressure - to an extent.
since i feel that safe pressure can be applied, in theory at least
you see some players learning to deal with samu being able to CC and UB OoS more and more as time passes, and since these things are innately based off of the opponent essentially messing up, they become less and less prevelant as the opponent knows how to deal with them
also just going to state that i hugs is more than just UB and CC lol obviously, but as a whole i feel he plays more in shield than samus should be played, though his spacing and movement are all very fine tuned and precise and effective, i think he should shield less, though i'd like to see some recent vids HUGO, upload a couple seriouslies or something, judging this most off of memory

any way, to move on to the response

i think a greater facet of samus play needs to be her ability to take a hit. more trades, more risks, more pressure when applicable because chances are ur going to live a lot longer than ur opponent

so instead of guessing with shield, maybe guess with an attack

but this i suppose also has it's flaws, it's just a theory, i'm not at tthe level to truly test this in depth
maybe i'm just salty i don't have as strong a defense as hugs does, also i hate falcon.

samus has a lot, a lot, of tools at her disposal, great effort needs to be made in refining the moves you use, more consideration of opponents %'s, their proximity to the nearest platform, etc. since her combo's aren't just...hit him with x, then y, then x, then b
they're more of...hit him with x, see where he goes, or how he response to x, then follow up accordingly with preferably y, t, or s, but if none of those apply then probably b

cc grab more imo, also bout to do extensive testing w/ extendur, i'd LOVE for this to become a staple in samus play, bu that may just be a pipe dream

still, it would be sick, and i'll porbably end up using it regardless because i need to feel some level of uniquness in my play otherwise i couldn't cope w/ not performing as well as thsoe i look up too haha


[edit]can she do it? vs fox, falco, marth, ic, peach a definite yes
vs shiek, falcon, ganon, puff i am unsure, not doubting, just need more testing.

 

[Strong Badam]

*Note: All of these are clankable, despite what it says. I'm guessing the clank is controlled by the 0x10 command directly after all articles which is like a set of SOC flags controlling stuff like absorb/reflectible.

[collapse=Neutral-B (Charge Tier 1)]

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[collapse=Neutral-B (Fully Charged)]

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[collapse=Side-B (Tilt)]

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[collapse=Side-B (Smash)]

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[collapse=Down-B (Pre-Detonation)]

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[collapse=Down-B (Explosion)]

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Wheeee projectile data. 361 = 44 btw.

 

[Corigames]

The things don't expand in the quote box. Can you just link the post that you copied those from or take them out of quotes or something?
I'd appreciate it :3

Edit today:
The drop boxes are now working for me.

 

[Strong Badam]

They expand for me... o_O Can anyone else confirm?

 

[McNinja]

@Bairjew, when you shffl things, the move you choose has no effect on how fast the shffl is. The only move with downward momentum (that I can think of) is falcon's down B.

 

[Strong Badam]

kirby upb ganon downb kirby downb
also moves that stall like counter, marth side-b, shine, etc.
but then again, SHFFL implies you aren't using a special move.

 

[HugS™]

quick opinion on that w/o much throught going into it so excuse me if i present obvious flaws but here goes

hugs playstyle is a solid base strategy for samus, it's very safe, precise, and is a great anti pressure - to an extent.
since i feel that safe pressure can be applied, in theory at least
you see some players learning to deal with samu being able to CC and UB OoS more and more as time passes, and since these things are innately based off of the opponent essentially messing up, they become less and less prevelant as the opponent knows how to deal with them
also just going to state that i hugs is more than just UB and CC lol obviously, but as a whole i feel he plays more in shield than samus should be played, though his spacing and movement are all very fine tuned and precise and effective, i think he should shield less, though i'd like to see some recent vids HUGO, upload a couple seriouslies or something, judging this most off of memory

any way, to move on to the response

i think a greater facet of samus play needs to be her ability to take a hit. more trades, more risks, more pressure when applicable because chances are ur going to live a lot longer than ur opponent

so instead of guessing with shield, maybe guess with an attack

but this i suppose also has it's flaws, it's just a theory, i'm not at tthe level to truly test this in depth
maybe i'm just salty i don't have as strong a defense as hugs does, also i hate falcon.

samus has a lot, a lot, of tools at her disposal, great effort needs to be made in refining the moves you use, more consideration of opponents %'s, their proximity to the nearest platform, etc. since her combo's aren't just...hit him with x, then y, then x, then b
they're more of...hit him with x, see where he goes, or how he response to x, then follow up accordingly with preferably y, t, or s, but if none of those apply then probably b

cc grab more imo, also bout to do extensive testing w/ extendur, i'd LOVE for this to become a staple in samus play, bu that may just be a pipe dream

still, it would be sick, and i'll porbably end up using it regardless because i need to feel some level of uniquness in my play otherwise i couldn't cope w/ not performing as well as thsoe i look up too haha


[edit]can she do it? vs fox, falco, marth, ic, peach a definite yes
vs shiek, falcon, ganon, puff i am unsure, not doubting, just need more testing.

Honestly, I've been thinking that exact thing: if I am to return full force, I gotta stop using my shield so much and find ways of doing defense differently. Good call.

 

[Violence]

Defend without using shield as much? What do you have in mind?

 

[McNinja]

@ the conversation about shffl speed: Yeah exactly. Are any of those moved actually used in shffl's? Not usually. Therefore shffl'd ariels don't really have a set speed, unless you are talking about startup lag and such. @ the conversation about defence without shield: I think what HugS was saying was things more like baiting and dodging, right?

 

[JrJet]

Hey, I just started getting in to Samus and was wondering if someone could explain the bomb spam recovery trick to me.

 

[BairJew]

Defend without using shield as much? What do you have in mind?

I'm also questioning Hugs here what would defending without shield do for Samus, it seems a lot of her main options involve forcing an approach, unless you will start jumping randomly maybe..?

 

[McNinja]

Hey, I just started getting in to Samus and was wondering if someone could explain the bomb spam recovery trick to me.

Basically, just mash down-B when your off stage and when the bomb explodes, you should rise up. And when you rise up, you tilt the joystick toward the stage. Then rinse and repeat. Does that make sense?

 

[Pi]

jumping randomly is probably...like...the worse idea i've heard for samus LOL, no we're still grounded

but defense encompasses a lot of aspects of play
baiting, shielding, counter attacking, trading, spacing, ccing are all aspects of defense

is marth or roys counter a defensive or an offensive option? it's both respectively

defense does not only = shield lol

 

[McNinja]

Yeah being anywhere in the air is usually bad. Especially Vs. A good Falcon or Marth.

 

[ThePrime]

You can still play "defensive" by playing right outside of your opponent's zone and not using your shield. Welcome to the future.

 

[JrJet]

Basically, just mash down-B when your off stage and when the bomb explodes, you should rise up. And when you rise up, you tilt the joystick toward the stage. Then rinse and repeat. Does that make sense?

Yeah pretty much. Just gonna have to practice... How much distance should you get per bomb?