EXTENNNDUURRRRRR (samus gen. disc.)

[Pluplue]

this is a samus thread?

 

[melt87]

Come on, guys, Marth is not the hardest Samus' match up...

 

[Geist]

Also one more note
Smart edge guarding: Edge guard characters like Ganon in such a way that you can fallow up after and do something else if they tech, DI and recover above, etc.

Edgeguarding is probably the only real thing that Samus > Ganon at. I like being able to hang on the edge without having to worry about getting hit by his upB

this is a samus thread?

lol?

Come on, guys, Marth is not the hardest Samus' match up...

Easy for you to say, Marth's Dair is a meteor smash in PAL.
:[[[[[

>>jhonnnnnssss<<

 

[terranoia]

all you gotta do is keep distance and missile! and dair/nair/whatever when you can!

 

[Pluplue]

ok I gotta jump in this @terranoia missiles really arent good against ganon. one waveland off ledge to forward air wrecks you when you're missiling. also, dair SUCKS against ganon no matter what circumstance you're using it in. the thing you have to do against ganon is wavedash back dash attack. dash attack owns ganon.

 

[AIDS]

all you gotta do is keep distance and missile! and dair/nair/whatever when you can!

Okay man, sorry, but worst advice ever, lol.
When you are playing against Marth you often need to mind game the aproach and get in little hits like a well spaced F-tilt. then fallow up when ever you get the chance. Option #2 is change to Sheik, that's how I beat Marth.

If you mean playing against Ganon (cause it is unclear who your responding too) then you can be more aggressive, or you also have the option to play defensive, or mix it up. I think Samus beats Ganon and has a lot of advantages. That match up is about 50-50.

ok I gotta jump in this @terranoia missiles really arent good against ganon. one waveland off ledge to forward air wrecks you when you're missiling. also, dair SUCKS against ganon no matter what circumstance you're using it in. the thing you have to do against ganon is wavedash back dash attack. dash attack owns ganon.

I agree with your dash attack statement, butt I find missiles wreck Ganon if you have the space to do it. Double missile on pokemon stadium wrecks him.

 

[edgeluca]

Double missile on pokemon stadium wrecks him.

true dat. Go check out our set against bwmat and rusty

 

[Geist]

BC ganons sound impatient. The ones here are just like *jab* *jab* *jab*
I do get hits with missiles, I just have to use crazy shinanigans to get them. Like missiles that are completely hidden by platforms, or getting a homing missiles to be overtaken by a smash missile. :[

I furiously start spitting missiles out once he's off stage. That works well.

 

[AIDS]

Noobking is bc, so is bwmatt.

 

[TheLifeRuiner]

If someone could help me out

So I was practicing grabs on Ganon, and I saw that if they don't di the dthrow, or di behind you, you can pretty much CG (i think) from around high 60s to high 130s. I was wondering if i could do the same if they DI away and I grab with a jc grab. I can't get the computer to DI away consistently (they usually DI in or nowhere -_-), so I was wondering if someone could try it.

Again I don't even know if it's a CG to begin with -- it seems like it

i remember trying the same thing on pikachu once, but i think he DIs away too far/is already out of stun

EDIT: NEVER MIND

i thought you could grab out of air with the grapple, but i think it's only with the grabbox(hitbox) on her gun?
anyways if they DI away, i'm thinking you could do it by running, and THEN jc grabbing when they're close
i still want someone to try this

EDIT 2: actually i'm not sure anymore
someone just try stuff

 

[Geist]

It can pseudo CG, but like you said, they can't DI. They can jump out/air dodge too I'm pretty sure.

 

[edgeluca]

Oh yeah I used to do that on my Marth friend until he stopped sucking

 

[Pluplue]

I agree with your dash attack statement, butt I find missiles wreck Ganon if you have the space to do it. Double missile on pokemon stadium wrecks him.

if you can find the space I guess, but when you have the space ganon is usually off the edge.

 

[edgeluca]

if you can find the space I guess, but when you have the space ganon is usually off the edge.

At least he's EASY to edgegaurd

 

[Pluplue]

which is my point... the only time you have to missile spam is when you can edgeguard him

 

[Dynamism?]

Dash attack beats Ganon less than dash attack beats Marth.

Grabbing Ganon is riskier than grabbing Marth, but Marth will shield more because of Ganons jab.

Marth can combo you in the air and spike easily with great speed horizontally where Ganon just stands there walling dull aerials.

There's no way Marth is any more difficult than Ganon.

Like 3 dash attacks and a grab>dthrow>nair and Marth is offstage and food.

Ganon is a boring game where you sit there waiting for him to leave a fake opening then wait on the ledge for 2 hours.

**** Shiek...but it's still doable.

After that, I can't stand Jiggs...

Well I actually love playing against her, it's just really hard...

 

[TheLifeRuiner]

man i hate playing period

i have to think

and this thinking makes me hella tired

i **** though when i think

i think

 

[Dynamism?]

go to sleep crazy lady

 

[THE RED SPARROW]

Marth's defense is nearly impregnable when perfectly spaced, if a Marth doesn't mess up a lot there's next to nothing you can do.

Gannon is a wall of power and stupid priority, but at least he has pauses in his offense and can be baited a lot easier, due to his dependence of aerials and double jumping for offense.

Gannon does everything in twos, meaning if he whiffs and aerial, he'll immediately follow up with something else. As long as you keep that in mind you can basically predict and punish him more easily than Marth- who has dozen of options with his priority stick and grapple arm.

 

[TheLifeRuiner]

go to sleep crazy lady

was this directed at me?

if so i don't get it lol



ALSO
not important i just made that caps so that you (whoever is reading) understands that this is a separate line of thought. I would have put "edit" but it didn't feel right since it's not relevant to anything currently being discussed
ANYWAYS
from now on
if i ever samus ditto
i will request my opponent to play me on brinstar
not the dumb janky one lol
i just think it's appropriate
and since neither of us have any advantage/disadvantage there then whatever
they'll probably counterpick if they lose though (******s!)

 

[Pi]

Plup you should have come to linguini's tourney.
they don't know how to fight samus in SFL



Also no offense to anyone, but I'm tired of hearing that marth just out spaces anyone.

Uh
Duh
This is not news, his sword is ****ing huge.
If it was that cut and dry marth would be OP ban please can't be beat.


Also I would like to remind everyone that if you have the drive to practice something;
SHFFMC
Wavebombing

Both are possible, and viable, and useful.

I'd also like to remind people to grab, by people I mean myself, grab you ****er, stop attacking shields!

 

[ThePrime]

marth is a harder matchup than ganon. period.

 

[Geist]

Stop typing 'Gannon' people lol
It's Ganon

I wish Samus could grab without using her grab :[
Also, can UpB OoS be buffered? I can seem to do it so much easier with Link and Boozer, but I still don't have it 110% with samus. Grrr

 

[AIDS]

if you can find the space I guess, but when you have the space ganon is usually off the edge.

You just need to be faster at doing it is my guess. I find tons of room on pokemon stadium. Infact, that is the best stage to do it on because you have no middle top platform for Ganon to hide on.

which is my point... the only time you have to missile spam is when you can edgeguard him

You never have too, but it is really good against him because his jumping and falling speed is so slow that he can't avoid and approach.

Dash attack beats Ganon less than dash attack beats Marth.

Grabbing Ganon is riskier than grabbing Marth, but Marth will shield more because of Ganons jab.

Marth can combo you in the air and spike easily with great speed horizontally where Ganon just stands there walling dull aerials.

There's no way Marth is any more difficult than Ganon.

Like 3 dash attacks and a grab>dthrow>nair and Marth is offstage and food.

Ganon is a boring game where you sit there waiting for him to leave a fake opening then wait on the ledge for 2 hours.

**** Shiek...but it's still doable.

After that, I can't stand Jiggs...

Well I actually love playing against her, it's just really hard...

It is not that easy, a good Marth will shield grab your dash attacks and if you get thrown into the air it is almost imposable to come down with taking no damage. Samus has very crappy combat in the air. She is a character who should be very grounded. Sheik is very good against Samus, but there are things we can do to make it more legit, such as doing ssb64 bomb recovery compared to the standard melee bomb recovery. Sheik is still very good against Samus but it can go both ways and she is much easier to punish then a good Marth would be.

As towards Ganon, he is easy if you know what ***** him, and he is decent combo material with Samus. I would almost say Samus has the advantage, but I will still say the match up is about 50-50, just some Samus players don't know how to fight him.

go to sleep crazy lady

No, you!

marth is a harder matchup than ganon. period.

STRONGLY AGREE WITH THIS AMERICAN!!! <---He knows!

 

[Geist]

Sheik is very good against Samus, but there are things we can do to make it more legit, such as doing ssb64 bomb recovery compared to the standard melee bomb recovery.

Which one was that, I didn't play Samus in 64.
Is it just bombing once instead of twice before progressing to the stage?

 

[Pi]

Which one was that, I didn't play Samus in 64.
Is it just bombing once instead of twice before progressing to the stage?

Yes

Also ganon is harder than marth. Period.

 

[Geist]

Of course he is, haven't you seen the bulge?

 

[Dynamism?]

grab marth people

It's sex.

 

[Kewkky]

So, I have a question for you guys... What's the frame data for pivoting? I find myself pivoting every once in a while, but not consistently, and knowing the timeframe where I have to do the pivot would help me out a lot here. I searched the two guides in the forum, but there's no mention of frame data anywhere, so I might as well ask here. I'm tired of dash-attacking away into nowhere when I want to pivot fsmash or pivot ftilt (or pivot a grab, one thing I really hate about Brawl is the habits it's made me create and one of them is the game's 'pivot grab'. Really hard to break...).

Also, got a little trouble upB'ing OoS... Sometimes I do it, sometimes I remain in my shield, sometimes I do an empty fullhop, and sometimes I waste my 2nd jump by pressing "b" just a tad bit too late.. It's my other common mistake (right behind failed pivots), and I'd like to improve on it. What exactly am I supposed to be doing, step by step? Any frame-specific inputs that I'm unaware of?

 

[Pi]

So, I have a question for you guys... What's the frame data for pivoting? I find myself pivoting every once in a while, but not consistently, and knowing the timeframe where I have to do the pivot would help me out a lot here. I searched the two guides in the forum, but there's no mention of frame data anywhere, so I might as well ask here. I'm tired of dash-attacking away into nowhere when I want to pivot fsmash or pivot ftilt (or pivot a grab, one thing I really hate about Brawl is the habits it's made me create and one of them is the game's 'pivot grab'. Really hard to break...).

Also, got a little trouble upB'ing OoS... Sometimes I do it, sometimes I remain in my shield, sometimes I do an empty fullhop, and sometimes I waste my 2nd jump by pressing "b" just a tad bit too late.. It's my other common mistake (right behind failed pivots), and I'd like to improve on it. What exactly am I supposed to be doing, step by step? Any frame-specific inputs that I'm unaware of?

I've asked about the frame data of pivoting before, and don't remember getting an answer
The window is small, maybe 2 or 3 frames at most. I feel like I want to say it's 1 frame but not sure.

Any way, just practice dashing 1 way, then smashing the other way, speed this up, then try it out of a dash dance, that's how I practiced, now I'm pretty consistent with em. Pivot tilts are something new that I'm practicing, they are odd for sure...I just discovered what I should actually be doing, though. Dark Sonic told me to hit A as the control stick is returning to the neutral position from the opposite direction you want to attack. So something like

Dash to the right, as the control stick is going back to the left, hit A before the neutral position, then follow through to the left and you should pivot ftilt to the left.

UB OoS, the problems you are describing seem to be you just not knowing how long you're in shield hit stun. If you want frame data on moves and how much shield hit stun they have check this website by superdoodleman: http://www.angelfire.com/games5/superdoodleman/frames.html

It would be hard to practice UB OoS timing unless you have a friend who knows how to shield pressure you with the characters you're having trouble against. Just make sure that if you do **** up your first UB and you stay in shield, don't spam it, return your controls to their normal position and try again if it's still applicable.

 

[Kewkky]

I've asked about the frame data of pivoting before, and don't remember getting an answer
The window is small, maybe 2 or 3 frames at most. I feel like I want to say it's 1 frame but not sure.

Any way, just practice dashing 1 way, then smashing the other way, speed this up, then try it out of a dash dance, that's how I practiced, now I'm pretty consistent with em. Pivot tilts are something new that I'm practicing, they are odd for sure...I just discovered what I should actually be doing, though. Dark Sonic told me to hit A as the control stick is returning to the neutral position from the opposite direction you want to attack. So something like

Dash to the right, as the control stick is going back to the left, hit A before the neutral position, then follow through to the left and you should pivot ftilt to the left.

UB OoS, the problems you are describing seem to be you just not knowing how long you're in shield hit stun. If you want frame data on moves and how much shield hit stun they have check this website by superdoodleman: http://www.angelfire.com/games5/superdoodleman/frames.html

It would be hard to practice UB OoS timing unless you have a friend who knows how to shield pressure you with the characters you're having trouble against. Just make sure that if you do **** up your first UB and you stay in shield, don't spam it, return your controls to their normal position and try again if it's still applicable.

Nice, a fast answer! Too bad you didn't get an answer for the frame data either... Having an idea of when I should be pivoting, like how we have the SWD frame data, makes mastering it so much easier. Guess I'll just have to practice it... Too bad, I don't like sitting in front of a TV by myself practicing stuff, usually I do my practicing in the middle of a match as soon as I take a stock off of someone, like SWD.

And yeah, the shieldstun sounds about right... I think I still don't have the timing down right. I'll try and keep an eye out for this, since the opponents I use upB the most for are for Falco and Fox, and I have a couple of competent Falco/Fox mainer friends around here in PR... Hope that it takes care of my problem. Really, I hate making that mistake and opponents capitalizing on it, and then them not figuring out that it was an accident frustrates me even more. >_>

Thanks!

 

[edgeluca]

STRONGLY AGREE WITH THIS AMERICAN!!! <---He knows!
Stealing my text
I agree too, though. AIDS TEACH ME HOW TO **** FOX LOLOLOL

EDIT: MY QUOTE ****ED UP

 

[Alukard]

ok ... discuss

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roGXwMN-LGg

why did space nutz ... just complete pee on him ?

 

[TheLifeRuiner]

that up b'ing shiz

i had that problem
you get it eventually
just sayin

 

[AIDS]

Yes

Also ganon is harder than marth. Period.

It's a joke, I get it! Kniht is thinking backwards! That's why he claims Ganon is harder then Marth! So complicated man! =/

 

[ihavespaceblondes]

ok ... discuss

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roGXwMN-LGg

why did space nutz ... just complete pee on him ?

1. More like darkrust amirite? No, seriously, he's out of practice and he knows it.

2. Samus has never been his best matchup. I got a game off him in second round pools at FC:D, and I wasn't really all that great then (and he was way more on his game at the time).

3. I'm pretty **** good vs Falcon. If it weren't for the almost overwhelming advantage he has over Samus, I'd call it my best matchup. I can't tell you how many hundreds or thousands of times NES n00b and I played it out, both in friendlies and tournament, and he knew how to cut off Samus' options better than any other Falcon I've ever played.

 

[Pi]

It's a joke, I get it! Kniht is thinking backwards! That's why he claims Ganon is harder then Marth! So complicated man! =/

Lol

Ganon's gimps > marths
Ganon's approach > marths
Ganon's punish > marths
Ganon's grab game > marths (granted it's harder to land but his punish is better)
Ganon's platform work > marths



Also

Jab -> Fsmash on jiggs at high %?
Jab Ftilt combo's, fsmash comes out 2-4 frames later...

Tested a bit
Combo'd with 126 ending %
Also combo'd w/ 150 ending %
Anyone want to test it more that'd be nice, I need my c-stick so training mode is annoying Zzz

yes this is highly DI dependant.

 

[ThePrime]

Lol

Ganon's gimps > marths
Ganon's approach > marths
Ganon's punish > marths
Ganon's grab game > marths (granted it's harder to land but his punish is better)
Ganon's platform work > marths

This is all theorycrafting imo because on paper it might seem that ganon is the harder matchup in case by case situations like you just listed. Taking everything as a whole I can't agree that ganon is harder lol. Why? Because I think ganon is MUCH more of a punishable character than marth is. Yes, ganon's upair eats through pretty much all of samus' aerials and his bair has a crazy hitbox - but i dont think you're looking at ganon's defensive options. What can ganon do vs missles? Not a lot lol, where as marth just needs a swipe of a sword.

what are some specific gimps that make ganon better than marth? or platform work? Give some examples.

Regardless, the main reason ganon can be very difficult is when you're out of position. Knowing what areas on the map are safe/dangerous lets you move accordingly .

 

[Geist]

ok ... discuss

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roGXwMN-LGg

why did space nutz ... just complete pee on him ?

It looks like people who try to out aggro IHSB tend to die a lot.
Then you get a camper like lambchops...

 

[Pi]

This is all theorycrafting imo because on paper it might seem that ganon is the harder matchup in case by case situations like you just listed. Taking everything as a whole I can't agree that ganon is harder lol. Why? Because I think ganon is MUCH more of a punishable character than marth is. Yes, ganon's upair eats through pretty much all of samus' aerials and his bair has a crazy hitbox - but i dont think you're looking at ganon's defensive options. What can ganon do vs missles? Not a lot lol, where as marth just needs a swipe of a sword.

what are some specific gimps that make ganon better than marth? or platform work? Give some examples.

Regardless, the main reason ganon can be very difficult is when you're out of position. Knowing what areas on the map are safe/dangerous lets you move accordingly .

If you are forced to recover low, ganon will almost assuredly gimp you with an up air. Which does not allow for another chance at recovery. The fact that he can pretty much hover in 1 area, and hit you with moves that don't give you a chance to make it back makes it better than marth who has merely 1 shot at a bair which knocks you up any way.

I'd say combo's on ganon are only SLIGHTLY better than combo's on marth.

Why I think the platform work is better is because when ganon is in that position (diagnal/above) his punishment is way better than marths. Granted he's not going to combo you too well, but honestly neither does marth when you are above 60.

The main reason I feel ganon is a harder matchup than marth is because while marths usually rack up % from combo's, and get kills by comboing into them, in this matchup he lacks those two things. Marth's kill moves are very punishable, and since he can't combo samus into them he has a harder time killing her.

Ganon, on the other hand, gets % and kills pretty much hit by hit. Which is perfect for samus who can't be combo'd any way. Having aerial kill moves is a huge advantage vs. samus. Especially since the only punish we have for ganon hitting our shield with aerials is UB, which if predicted/used wrong can end up in a trade.


As far as missiles go, forget what ganon can do against them, what can we follow them up with?
What if he can power shield a few?
What if he spot dodges the grab attempt?
Ganon's roll is amazing so even if his shield is getting pressured, chances are he can escape by rolling.

And if you wanna get really serious he can just Ftilt the missiles, dash attack them , bair them, fair them, whatever. He could jab them even at the right level.

Lasers are far worst than missiles, and ganon's find ways around them.

Missiles don't win matches, they merely aid in your approach.