Q&A "Everyone Look At Me!" The Marth Video Critique Thread.

[Niko45]

From my experience SB is only good if the fox is basically dead already (barely making it back) or they just took a really bad angle. It is also good uncharged if they try to side B over your head. Other than that you have to charge it so you can't move and adjust like you can for timing fsmash.

Dtilt is really good. I find that spacies get under the jab if they side B to the ledge (the timing is different than if they side B at you, I think you have to jab later to cover the edge). I think it's easier to just adjust and dtilt than switch up jab timing. Plus dtilt is an auto kill at that point, jab still leaves some further work to be done. Dtilt is also great if they try to firefox level with the edge since it covers the direct firefox and leaves you with enough time to punish with something else if they up B high.

 

[otg]

I'm a big advocate of Shield breaker in general, but that's cause my Marth is lulzy.

 

[Tatzelwurm136]

SB is your best tool when fox is above ledge height.

 

[P. O. F.]

SB is your best tool when fox is above ledge height.

*Agrees*

OTG-Yeah, that is the beauty of Marth though. I really think Marths edge/ledge guarding game is by far the best in the game. He has sooooo much creativity and can pretty much use every single one of his moves to edge guard. In all honesty, you can edge guard with just side B if you're good enough for god sakes. His third one down spikes and his normal side b's will put someone low just like a jab. lol.

Every other character is so structured in terms of what needs to be done to edge guard that it makes Marth look like a god among mortals.

 

[Mogwai]

*Agrees*

OTG-Yeah, that is the beauty of Marth though. I really think Marths edge/ledge guarding game is by far the best in the game. He has sooooo much creativity and can pretty much use every single one of his moves to edge guard. In all honesty, you can edge guard with just side B if you're good enough for god sakes. His third one down spikes and his normal side b's will put someone low just like a jab. lol.

Every other character is so structured in terms of what needs to be done to edge guard that it makes Marth look like a god among mortals.

third hit down is a meteor, not a spike, so it's not advised against people who know what they're doing. and it'd say that in general Jiggs and Sheik are better edgeguarders are least.

 

[P. O. F.]

third hit down is a meteor, not a spike, so it's not advised against people who know what they're doing. and it'd say that in general Jiggs and Sheik are better edgeguarders are least.

Jiggs doesn't "edge guard," she gimps.

Whether or not Sheiks edge game is better than Marths I GUESS you could give that one a coin toss. Marth just has so much creativity its not even funny.

 

[Metal Reeper]

QDLRZ

You're not U throwing. Do it.

Stop throwing out fsmashes immediately after throws praying he'll tech into it. Wait for him to do an action while hes on the ground and THEN do something (preferably regrab)

You're approaching too much. Don't approach. Wait for your friend to do something dumb...then go **** it.

When Fox upB's....counter it, f tilt, or fsmash. Nothing else.

I didn't see enough fairs.

I didn't see enough grabs. :-/

Thank's for all the advice, and you are 100% right. I always thought my Marth was really good, but since you said this I've just been noticing that I am doing a few small things wrong that will make me a much better player.I've been notcing what these things are, by watching high level, well known Marth's play.Again thank you.

I agree I should have grabbed more, and in that match I was Fsmashing more than usual lol.I really should wait til after he tech/rolls to attack.

Also....can Marth's jab get through Fox's upB? I always jab Fox's illusion.

 

[Metal Reeper]

That was pretty good DI.

Hah thanks ;] I had DI like that in my one match, except it was Falcon and mute city, except I died =/ midwest DI.

 

[P. O. F.]

Also....can Marth's jab get through Fox's upB?

Yup, definitely. You have better options though because hes just going to up b again. do fsmash or counter. Those are the most simple.

 

[Metal Reeper]

Yup, definitely. You have better options though because hes just going to up b again. do fsmash or counter. Those are the most simple.

Yeah I usually prefer jabbing, Thanks. I will have updated matches as soon as I can, I just need someone to record for us. There will definitlly be an improvement ;]

 

[elvenarrow3000]

It's really not a good idea to jab the Fire Fox. Sometimes there's not enough stun and Fox'll drop straight onto the edge. Even if he doesn't, he ends up below the stage in an awkward place to gimp and it makes it easy for him to tech stuff.

 

[P. O. F.]

My turn guys:

ref code: umedgeguard?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zfjO-5uDjE&feature=sub

I failed so hard on edge guards that it makes me cry. Biggest being the constant illusions that i missed the jab on.

 

[KirbyKaze]

My turn guys:

ref code: umedgeguard?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zfjO-5uDjE&feature=sub

I failed so hard on edge guards that it makes me cry. Biggest being the constant illusions that i missed the jab on.

When you hit him offstage and low, why do you never go out and Fair him? If he goes too low to be Faired he's also too low to make it back so you can just edgehog him and he dies.

Do better chain grabs. I'm all for simplicity, but often you mistimed the F-smash slightly too late and missed the tipper, which would have given you an easier edgeguard (or just killed him).

Lasers seemed to really affect you. I would suggest you work out of shield a bit more, because when you jump around with Fairs and stuff you often got punished. I'm not sure how you'd do that, though, and I'm also unsure of whether it would be necessary to do so because I'm not sure how Marth vs Falco really works for combat stuff. I really don't know if it's a case of "Jumping around with Fair is best thing, I was doing it imperfectly".

 

[ChivalRuse]

The thing about fair is that it's really obvious when you're going to do it. Like, when Marth full hop fairs over a laser, Falco is going to immediately prepare himself for the descending fair and more than likely will be able to punish it / laser you when you land and trap you in your shield.

 

[Tatzelwurm136]

When falco is recovering, go off stage and fwap him once or twice. its a lot better than letting him tech your fsmashes and ****

 

[Niko45]

You do not want to jump around fairing. You want to have extremely good OOS command to be able to bait and still outspace falco even tho you are being forced to shield. If you have space behind you, shield lasers until they approach, then WD back OOS immediately after the laser that is being used to cover the approach. This should space perfectly for a grab or at least some sort of punishment.

In general for approaching, you need to have very good command of fair out of shield as it is your best weapon. Anticipate when he will laser and run at him, shielding at the distance where you can hit him with fair OOS after the laser. If you have time or they go for the full jump high-low laser, you can actually run right up on them and shield grab. In my limited experience the ideal approach is to run up and shield right in front of them since a laser in place gives you a grab and a retreating reverse laser spaces perfectly for fair. Sometimes you don't have enough time to properly position your shield, which is where marth gets in trouble. You should be able to always at least trade with falco's nair/dair approach if you adjust your misspacing with an advancing or retreating fair OOS. Counter is also extremely effective when used sparingly (I find that if you even just turn your back or find yourself out of position with your back to falco he will go berzerk and rush you, counter is almost a guarantee in those situations).

When falco is on the ground, you need to be very very cautious about chasing him. If you try to regrab and he can buffer a sidestep, you now just lost half a stock. I honestly try to tech chase with other things, like dtilt or fair, but if you are going for the grab I recommend planning on him doing the normal stand up to buffer sidestep. If I see any movement from falco I rush and grab or wait for the sidestep and grab (this is definitely safer, I just don't have full confidence in timing Falco's sidestep as costly as it is to mess up). If he starts to get up attack just sit back and dtilt or fsmash if feeling greedy. If he rolls away he is still out of position and needs to reset a laser approach, so keep pressure on him and try to get a cheap opening. Honestly tho, I typically am really conservative in tech chasing falco because it is so so costly to mess up a regrab attempt. Low and mid level Marths are not confident enough in their OOS games and ability to stop Falco's laser approach that they will almost always force the tech chase attempts when they don't have them, causing them to get ***** with no laser approach required.

Don't try to get cute when in shield pressure. WD out fsmash is really nice against bad falcos but good falcos like this one apply shield pressure and then try to anticipate a reaction. My philosophy is really to try to never ever get shield pressured because it really more often than not doesn't work out for Marth. Keep your space, keep him out with fair just like against any character and I'll honestly try to just roll out and reset vs shield pressure if I unfortunately get caught in it.

In my experience against Mogwai, he is one of the best falcos I've seen at up Bing from below and sweet spotting. If they do this you honestly really can't do very much. Just tip your hat and don't do something laggy for the hell of it, set up to knock him off coming up from the ledge. Try to time your counter early so that you just have enough time left on the counter if it is going to connect, and if he is really going to sweetspot, the counter will stop lagging before he has a chance to get up from the ledge.

In regards to what was said about him teching your fsmashes, just dtilt instead. It will kill as surely as fsmash will and it's harder to tech than fsmash and even if they do, the laglessness of dtilt allows you to edgeguard the further recovery attempt he will need after he techs.

 

[Tatzelwurm136]

dtilt is just as techable.... seriously, just go off stage with a fair. its not fox, his fire doesnt hurt you. you should feel the most confident off the stage, thats your play ground. if mango fell off the stage, you have to be comfortable enough to run off and end his stock.

 

[Niko45]

dtilt is just as techable.... seriously, just go off stage with a fair. its not fox, his fire doesnt hurt you. you should feel the most confident off the stage, thats your play ground. if mango fell off the stage, you have to be comfortable enough to run off and end his stock.

Dtilt is not just as techable because there isn't as much hitstun. Fsmash leaves you a bigger window for you to DI into the stage during the hit.

And its not always as easy as just running off stage. You have to respect the side B, maybe you guys traded hits to set it up and you can't get there in time, falco can up B close to the stage at tricky angles that make it take too long to go down there and properly fair them, etc.

 

[ChivalRuse]

When falco is recovering, go off stage and fwap him once or twice.

I <3 onomatopoeia.

 

[otg]

So yeah my Marth needs some help lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPPoibjUHsE&feature=sub

Ref code: otg1

I don't main the mofo, but I do enjoy using him and would like to get better, so I'll take any advice I can get. There are def more vids coming up too, so I'll add them to this post (or make a new one depending on when they are uploaded).

 

[Metal Reeper]

Recorded 3 matches today, i hope you guys noticed improvement, I was trying to incorporate more Uthrows Fairs and spacing. IDK why but I kept upBing whitch was a mistake, and i kept missin gimps =/

1.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_5-Yp_pIYI
2.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJrEaSay1nc
3.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiC_Ru0Y3EA


Refrence: QDLRZ

 

[Metal Reeper]

So yeah my Marth needs some help lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPPoibjUHsE&feature=sub

Ref code: otg1

I don't main the mofo, but I do enjoy using him and would like to get better, so I'll take any advice I can get. There are def more vids coming up too, so I'll add them to this post (or make a new one depending on when they are uploaded).

1ST MATCH -
At 0:37 and 0:40 you Uthrew Fox, a better choice would of proably of been to Bthrow him, to put him into a better position, you couldn't really gain much from Uthrowing him, he was already at 90%, you didn't take any damage after you Uthrew em, but Bthrow proably woulda been better.

But at 1:11 you Bthrew him off the ledge but he was only at 30%, maybe an Uthrow woulda been better, he proably would've gotten trapped on the platform over you. When a spacey or anyone, is on a platform, and Marth is under, you can Utilt the hell out of them if they are at low %, a very good position for you to be in.

At 1:47 fox was above the platofrm and you tried Utilting, so you proably knew what i just said lol.

I think you should be a little more patient while you have the ledge and your opponent is waiting for you to come back up, you kinda just kept jumpin up there and kept getting grabbed and such, patience is a good.

2ND MATCH

I noticed in both matches that you like to Nair. Nair is good, but it looks like your trying to approach/space with it, id suggest Fairing more.

-----
I like your Marth ;] its good, I think it would just be better ifya put your opponent in worse positions, you have good grab game, spacing could be better.

Also, that Fox was good hah =p
This is the first time i wrote one of these....reccomendations critique i guess, so i hope i helped =]

 

[otg]

Add this vid as well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4H8qsdcptA&feature=sub

Marth dittos. I haven't watched these yet, but if these are the matches I'm thinking of, I get *****. Once again, any advice is welcome.

 

[Metal Reeper]

@otg
Im gonna request ya on youtube as a friend, and i subscribed. names Artemisglitch

 

[Metal Reeper]

crap my comp is goin away for a few days....so i wont be back for awhile <3

 

[P. O. F.]

QDLRZ

I want you to go back and watch the match VS the Falco and then the match VS the Blue Marth on FD.

On the first stock of the Falco match what do you do early on in the match to get a quick lead and take a stock fast?

Then at 2:05-2:35 watch the Marth ditto and what do you notice about the grabs here? The person who gets the grabs controls the match.

You're still not grabbing enough and even if you do get the grab you are not following up or punishing them hard for letting you get the grab. In Marth dittos uthrow to u tilt or fair Balogni is your friend. If they jump out of the u throw go hit them with tippered bair/bair/whatever and if they dont u tilt and then follow up with fairs etc. You and your friend are just running around going back and forth praying that one of your fairs will connect and you will be able to do some sick ken combo or something cool. You need to slow down, and sometimes WAIT for your opponent to do something and then go do as you please. Also, you need to crouch cancel more and STAY on the ground in Marth dittos. If your friend runs at you and tries to fair....fsmash or f tilt him. It will stop his aerial approach. If he dashes at you.... d tilt and if he fsmashes you run in for the grab.

Vs Falco: Your friends Falco is obviously not comfortable SH lasering yet. You need to tech chase him and throw him as if it was the only move you knew by Marth.

Throws are god in Melee.

Go read my Match Up Thread if you are unfamiliar with what you should be doing in match ups, chain throwing spacies, etc. Arcnatrual, Cort, M2K, Cactuar, all have valuable inputs in there as well.

 

[P. O. F.]

otg1

Elven basically commented on what I was going to say.

Approaching with nair is pretty bad. However, zoning with it is not a bad idea. It covers rolls nicely and I use it to space. Use fair a LOT MORE.

It seems like you have a general idea but not a good concept of what you should be doing to the space animals at certain %'s with marths with the uthrow. I noticed a lot of uthrows to u tilt and then tech chasing to whtever? If that works for you then do it...but i dont recommend it. The pivot grab for spaceys is around 24% and the u tilt to regrab is arounds 30%. From there do an u tilt and then fsmash is the most basic thing to do that usually works. Don't dream of doing u tilts until AT LEAST 28% because they wont sweet spot and the Fox will just go to the ground. Your edge guarding is pretty decent but your still making some bad decisions there. I dont recommend d tilt for stopping counter....and it made you pay (I think) in the second match.....the one on yoshis. Fsmash, f tilt, and counter. After you counter you can either f smash or do dropzone which is usually a 2-3 step process. At one point ya faired...then ledge hop uaired into fsmash. (3 step process) i like to do that myself sometimes. I saw Taj do it in a match and fell in love with it. lol.

One other thing i can think of is try to mix it up when your opponent is above you on platform (waveland up and grab them, nair them, SH uair, u tilt) I like to nair at higher percents and u tilt on most stages except for Dreamland. (I rarely go there so i usually just like u tilt and nairs.
****, im tiredddd

crap, double post.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Ref code: umedgeguard?

You're having lots of troubles with lasers. It seems more like a mental issue than anything. You're rushing in too fast, taking the hits from the lasers and putting yourself at a disadvantage. Take it slow and approach patiently. Even if you do get sniped from a distance, the damage from a laser is almost negligible if you consider the chainthrows and gimps that you have against Falco.

Your DI looks a little off, so you're taking a lot more hits from each combo than I feel you really should be.

You do this thing where you jump then immediately double jump. That's bad, because it leaves you with very few options, especially with Falco close. I'm not really sure what you're trying to accomplish here, but if you do have a good reason for it, don't forget about your Dancing Blade. The first one can float you a little and it might throw Falco off.

But yeah, once you get around the lasers, you'll find yourself in a much better position against Falco.

Oh yeah, and stop eating the light shield edge hog. Easier said than done, I know, but you should consider air dodging to the edge to recover or Dolphin Slashing early so you don't hit his shield. If you go straight for the ledge, you're dead, so mix it up.



Ref code: otg1

You seem to be uthrowing a lot in situations where uthrow isn't the best idea. Once you get your opponent over eighty percent, your options out of the uthrow start declining and, especially at the ledge, a dthrow is often better. You're looking for kills above all else and the best place to get them is when your opponent is off the stage.

Why do you ftilt after dtilt?

You use the Dancing Blade too fast on the recovery. It gives you distance partially based on your momentum. Meaning if you're drifting forward already, you'll get more distance as opposed to if you're just falling straight. So don't use it immediately after getting knocked off.

When you recover close to the stage (like when you haven't been knocked off very far) you seem to Dancing Blade first then double jump. This eats up two of your options when you don't really need to use both. Save your Dancing Blade, at least.

Also, a minor point. When you're double jumping to the ledge, be careful not to go too high. You don't want to get caught by a random dash attack or fsmash or something.



Ref code: QDLRZ

Your Marth feels very slow. I dunno. It seems like a lot of times when you should be doing something, you can't because you're caught in lag. It's not the usual problem of fsmashing too much, either, which is surprising.

Most of your lag is coming from rolls, missed jump cancels and dairs.

For starters, learn to wavedash out of shield if you can't already. You're getting stuck in shield a lot and your only way out seems to be to roll, which hurts because it disintegrates any pressure you had on your opponent. Of course, learn all the out of shield options, too. For the moment, the only one you seem to be using is the dair.

Which is bad. The dair is unwieldy and slow. You're wasting a lot of time on it.

Once you do that, you'll find yourself having more time to dash dance and you'll be able to control the stage better.

 

[RTpmwe]

Hi! Could some of you look at my Marth play?

Refno: RT21


You could watch these videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gga2lMlCXno

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EZKBYYfYO8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MD5Z_Wnz_GE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCTSh0TU6Z0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgcosbM9f8Q


I am the player one.
You can also watch so
me other videos from my channel if you like.
Thanks in advance!

E: Yes it is PAL version

 

[unknown522]

PAL version?

 

[Mifune]

PAL version?

Yeah. in the PAL version, marth is lighter then usual so he cant be waveshined.

 

[P. O. F.]

I want to play pal. lol.

****ing Fox and his waveshine to grab BS

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Waveshine usmash comes out at the same speed.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Hey, guys, can you help me improve my Marth? Only one video up for the time being, so it shouldn't take too long. Thanks!

Ref code: Chival

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0F0FhA2CYw&feature=sub

 

[puckgood]

Reference code: puckedup

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wH7d8DLVJrQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-ScJ0c-x_U&feature=related

 

[P. O. F.]

Chival

What I liked:

Your Marths spacing is actually very very good.

Your movement on stage is also very good. You're always moving around on stage and keeping your opponent guessing as to where he should attack. Very nice.


What needs work:

You're doing the right thing from the grab...you're just not good at tech chasing Fox or doing the CG. Go into 1P mode put Fox on lvl 4 and go to FD and start u throwing. Read my CG guide in the match up section if you're unfamiliar with the %'s. If you're not a fan of CG (Looks to Cactus) then tech chase his *** and combo him. lol. Whatever works for you.

Your fairs.......where are they? nairs in this match up should be used very sparingly. You're doing too many nairs. You can use them to cover forward rolls, fade away nair if you predict hes going to run in and try to grab, (even then, fair works too) and after u throw at around 78-90 something %. Other than that, thats about it.

Face your opponent. Marth is pretty crummy when he is not facing his opponent. Most of the time when someone is not constantly facing their opponent its because they are nervous or they feel overwhelmed by their opponents offensive pressure. Ch2red's offensive pressure on you was not too great. Half the time he was just laser camping you. Relax.

You have a lot of potential in your edge guards and i see your creativity trying to come out but ummm keep it simple and stop trying to act like M2K When they fire fox either counter or Fsmash. When they illusion jab, d tilt, or shield and then regrab them while they lag on stage. If its last stock than you can go all m2k and do dairs, reverse up b gimps, neu Bs and all that junk.


oh and if you grab a spacey near the ledge always follow up with d tilt. "its so ****" (mango)


forgot to add this in: Stop fsmashing randomly. Grabs, fairs, and edge guards. The match up.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Thanks, POF! I appreciate it.

Puck, I'll analyze your matches tomorrow when I'm not so busy.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

puckedup

Work on your spacing a bunch. Your goal (with any character) is to stay close enough to threaten but far enough to be out of danger.

Against falco this means you generally want him to keep lasering. Just move around through his lasers however you want, and stay away from his regular hitboxes. Hit him with your sword and get grabs as much as possible.

Watch m2k or ken or azen vs falcos, and watch how far away they stay or how far away they try to be

 

[P. O. F.]

pucked up

one of marths biggest strengths is his ability to keep his opponents at bay with his distance game by utilizing his fairs, f tilt, nair, and so on. Your Marth needs work on your l cancels, grabs, and using certain aerials in the right situation. ALWAYS keep your opponent in front of you. One of the biggest parts to using Marth. There was a point where you uaired Falco but you couldn't grab him or do anything after he fell simply because he was behind you. Even when you do uairs or u tilts you want to do your best to always make sure your opponent is in front of you. Edge guarding, bairs, and dairs from the ledge etc obviously sometimes you wont be because the hitbox on the counter is bigger if you face away actually.

I know I say this all the time but stop fsmashing randomly. It's definitely one of Marths best (if not, his best) move but its only good if you can consistently hit with it or you use it at the proper time. ( a combo finisher) You will be better off grabbing at a time you "think" you can get an fsmash off. Don't tech chase with fsmash. Grabbing is a good 3x better more than half the time.

Your grab and throw game also need work. You seem to be doing the wrong throws at the wrong time (You u threw Falco near the ledge when you could have easily just d threw him...d tilted and edge guarded for a stock.) and you constantly pray for the u tilt after the u throw. Don't do this. U tilt doesn't work till around 29-35% and then it follows with a regrab or whatever depending on where the Falco is.

I also recommend that you go into Training and work on wavelands and wavedashes for a good 5 minutes each day for a week. You must have air dodged five times trying to wavedash/waveland in those matches.

 

[Eon the Wolf]

Okay folks. Friend got me to get back into melee after being a lazy ***. So now I balance Marth on melee (with an eye in regards to dorf, falco, falcon, dr. mario, luigi n IC and am still debating who my alts shall be...) and IC, Marth, Wolf, and Falcon on Brawl. Now I just started trying to practice for comp play on brawl back in june, and comp for melee since round mid/late October. I finall got a way to record my matches for critique, and I hope it's bearable.....Please don't judge too harshly....?
Also, I hope it's okay to just post my YT account...I've got 5 matches atm split into 10 vids, and I'd rather link the account page that they all show on rather than all 10 links :/....
------------
Ref Code: 12KIR4

http://www.youtube.com/user/kaireg#g/u

I'd like to say that me n my friend have already improved quite a bit since those vids a week or 2 ago...or so....Just never got around to uploading em till now. Other than that...yeah, Lookin forward to the critique