Ndot
Smash Journeyman
Don't go for the grab against IC's if they are together, if the IC's is good enough they'll just use the ungrabbed IC to jab or smash you out of the grab, which is obviously bad for you. Grab if they're alone.
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Q&A "Everyone Look At Me!" The Marth Video Critique Thread.
- Thread starter P. O. F.
- Start date
Niko45
Smash Master
I probably did it too much in these vids. I still find it useful and worth it sometimes. Like with invincibility after a lost stock, or in general at low %, and near the edge. Sometimes you throw one into the other, sometimes you just catch them off guard. Marth doesn't separate them that well overall, but I guess I COULD just sit back and dtilt them to death.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Niko, I watched the whole set. You have a great Marth. But the Marth vs. IC's match-up is mad one-sided. Like, it's supposed to be 60-40, but my belief is that it's closer to 70-30.
Popo can punish an fsmash (on his shield) fairly well. Popo and Nana together really can't do it too effectively. The reason is because if they heavy shield, after a couple pokes, fsmash will shield stab them. On the other hand, if they lightshield, the shield stun is enough to render their wavedash out of shield to grab way too slow. Marth can just fsmash again before they can get to him. You seemed to understand this well enough.
Also, your use of dair is interesting. I've never seen Marth's use dair on shields purely for the shield stun.
You have a lot of strengths, it seems, in this match-up. Your aerial game is very precise and you don't just attack mindlessly. However, just a couple minor-ish choices are what determine the difference between you winning a finals set narrowly, and just completely dominating it 3-0.
Ndot brought up the idea of grabbing IC's when they're synched. Actually, I have to disagree on it being unwise. It's actually a great, and probaby the easiest, way to separate them. You're having some trouble with your application of this strategy, though. I noticed that sometimes when you'd get a grab on Nana, you would attempt to combo her out of the grab. Subsequently, Jflo would either dsmash or grab you.
What you want to do is -
1. Grab Popo and **** him from the grab.
or 2. Grab Nana, throw her away from Popo, and then focus on attacking Popo. Once Popo is off his feet, it's at your discretion whether you want to gimp Nana or hunt after Popo.
"I'm thinking more dtilt" - Absolutely! I can't emphasize this more. If you watch the way Ken played Chu old school, he used dtilt possibly more than any other move (save fair). A spaced dtilt on IC's shield is literally unpunishable, can shield stab, and will separate them and set up for a wavedash -> fsmash at virtually any percent. You can effectively poke IC's shield until they either roll behind you, which you can punish with a side-b (IASA frames ftw), or they will retreat in some shape or form, and you have lost nothing at the expense of pressuring them.
Also, dash attack less! That move has almost no uses against IC's and will occasionally get you shield grabbed or CC dsmashed.
Lastly, stay off platforms if at all possible. I mean, IC's uair is just too good. If you know for a fact that they can't hit you from a particular angle, then I have no objection. But just don't challenge their priority when they're below you.
Hope this helped.
Popo can punish an fsmash (on his shield) fairly well. Popo and Nana together really can't do it too effectively. The reason is because if they heavy shield, after a couple pokes, fsmash will shield stab them. On the other hand, if they lightshield, the shield stun is enough to render their wavedash out of shield to grab way too slow. Marth can just fsmash again before they can get to him. You seemed to understand this well enough.
Also, your use of dair is interesting. I've never seen Marth's use dair on shields purely for the shield stun.
You have a lot of strengths, it seems, in this match-up. Your aerial game is very precise and you don't just attack mindlessly. However, just a couple minor-ish choices are what determine the difference between you winning a finals set narrowly, and just completely dominating it 3-0.
Ndot brought up the idea of grabbing IC's when they're synched. Actually, I have to disagree on it being unwise. It's actually a great, and probaby the easiest, way to separate them. You're having some trouble with your application of this strategy, though. I noticed that sometimes when you'd get a grab on Nana, you would attempt to combo her out of the grab. Subsequently, Jflo would either dsmash or grab you.
What you want to do is -
1. Grab Popo and **** him from the grab.
or 2. Grab Nana, throw her away from Popo, and then focus on attacking Popo. Once Popo is off his feet, it's at your discretion whether you want to gimp Nana or hunt after Popo.
"I'm thinking more dtilt" - Absolutely! I can't emphasize this more. If you watch the way Ken played Chu old school, he used dtilt possibly more than any other move (save fair). A spaced dtilt on IC's shield is literally unpunishable, can shield stab, and will separate them and set up for a wavedash -> fsmash at virtually any percent. You can effectively poke IC's shield until they either roll behind you, which you can punish with a side-b (IASA frames ftw), or they will retreat in some shape or form, and you have lost nothing at the expense of pressuring them.
Also, dash attack less! That move has almost no uses against IC's and will occasionally get you shield grabbed or CC dsmashed.
Lastly, stay off platforms if at all possible. I mean, IC's uair is just too good. If you know for a fact that they can't hit you from a particular angle, then I have no objection. But just don't challenge their priority when they're below you.
Hope this helped.
P. O. F.
Smash Ace
Get Brawl out of my thread. Go post this in the Brawl Marth boards.
Niko45
Smash Master
Honestly the dair stuff was really interesting. I just started doing it naturally coming from platforms because the spacing just worked out but once I saw how effective it was I just stuck with it. I'm honestly not sure if they can punish it between the shield stun and the slide-back.
That's an interesting take on Marth vs ICs overall matchup. I think it's pretty stage dependent. Just going off my general feel for it, I think the double climber vs Marth is at least 50/50, if not advantage IC's. But then once it's Popo alone vs Marth it's like 80/20 Marth. XD And I only say 80/20 because I'll never say anything is worse than 80/20. Killing Nana seems to be literally 4/5ths of a stock.
That's an interesting take on Marth vs ICs overall matchup. I think it's pretty stage dependent. Just going off my general feel for it, I think the double climber vs Marth is at least 50/50, if not advantage IC's. But then once it's Popo alone vs Marth it's like 80/20 Marth. XD And I only say 80/20 because I'll never say anything is worse than 80/20. Killing Nana seems to be literally 4/5ths of a stock.
elvenarrow3000
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2007
- Messages
- 3,308
I doubt they can punish it. Wavedashes aren't that fast and dair lag isn't that slow =P
You might consider slowing the dash dance down a little and spacing more meticulously, as you do have a bit more room for that against Ice Climbers than you would with other characters. Other than that...
I dunno, no offense to J-Flo, but those Ice Climbers aren't very... regulation, I guess, to be kind. I don't think I saw anything productive out of a grab the entire first match, just... two characters sliding around and smashing a lot.
You might consider slowing the dash dance down a little and spacing more meticulously, as you do have a bit more room for that against Ice Climbers than you would with other characters. Other than that...
I dunno, no offense to J-Flo, but those Ice Climbers aren't very... regulation, I guess, to be kind. I don't think I saw anything productive out of a grab the entire first match, just... two characters sliding around and smashing a lot.
Niko45
Smash Master
I shouldn't be dash dancing at all vs 2 climbers. If I am then my bad.
I'm gonna guess you only watched 1 match elven...J-Flo is really good and is a known IC's threat in tri-state.
I'm gonna guess you only watched 1 match elven...J-Flo is really good and is a known IC's threat in tri-state.
P. O. F.
Smash Ace
Niko21
You werent spacing fairs...or using fairs that much...and it made me sad. I would have to say that you were just getting lucky with your nairs. f the player had shielded them he probably would have made you eat an fsmash to the face. As with what is stated above, those ic's you were playing were not exactly textbook. They failed a lot from the grab.
You also ran around fsmashing wayyyy too much. Once again, you got lucky. Any decent IC player will shield this to WD forward to whatever they like, most likely a grab.
Fair, D tilt, and jab to space. That's all you need. U throw an isolated ic to whatever you feel like doing. Uairs at low percents or mids is fine but at high go with fairs and nairs for follow ups. Abuse f smash and f tilt for edge guarding in this match up and if they go too high reverse bair them (saw you did that, nice.) and if you are facing forward....fair. Don't go for grabs too often...but do it every now and then. Sort of like the jigs match up.....but just a TAD bit more.
Really though... fair to d tilt or jab is beautiful here. Watch our for them running under you and d smashing though.
(I only watched the first two...gotta go to class.)
You werent spacing fairs...or using fairs that much...and it made me sad. I would have to say that you were just getting lucky with your nairs. f the player had shielded them he probably would have made you eat an fsmash to the face. As with what is stated above, those ic's you were playing were not exactly textbook. They failed a lot from the grab.
You also ran around fsmashing wayyyy too much. Once again, you got lucky. Any decent IC player will shield this to WD forward to whatever they like, most likely a grab.
Fair, D tilt, and jab to space. That's all you need. U throw an isolated ic to whatever you feel like doing. Uairs at low percents or mids is fine but at high go with fairs and nairs for follow ups. Abuse f smash and f tilt for edge guarding in this match up and if they go too high reverse bair them (saw you did that, nice.) and if you are facing forward....fair. Don't go for grabs too often...but do it every now and then. Sort of like the jigs match up.....but just a TAD bit more.
Really though... fair to d tilt or jab is beautiful here. Watch our for them running under you and d smashing though.
(I only watched the first two...gotta go to class.)
Niko45
Smash Master
I will reiterate that those ICs are good and have beaten good players before, as in, he is twice as good as the opponents other people are trying to get ratings off of in here.
That said, I got lucky with the fsmashes and at least the approaching nairs, agreed. Gotta cut those out.
But someone please tell me why I should fair to dtilt in place instead of nair to dtilt. I just don't see why fair is so good in this matchup. They can wavedash in and roll behind you, or they can just sneak under the fair and hit you with lots of stuff, like god **** fsmash. Idk, I just think nair covers me longer, lags equally, and also covers them trying to sneak underneath me.
That said, I got lucky with the fsmashes and at least the approaching nairs, agreed. Gotta cut those out.
But someone please tell me why I should fair to dtilt in place instead of nair to dtilt. I just don't see why fair is so good in this matchup. They can wavedash in and roll behind you, or they can just sneak under the fair and hit you with lots of stuff, like god **** fsmash. Idk, I just think nair covers me longer, lags equally, and also covers them trying to sneak underneath me.
otg
Smash Master
Elven, J-Flo is an amazing Icies from NYC, I wouldn't be so quick to judge him and **** on him just because he doesn't fit the "optimal" style or whatever it is you think makes him bad. At first I thought it was P.O.F. who was talking down on him, and I was going to be like "RAGGEEEEE", but I've never seen you play (tho you do talk mad **** and I dont think I've ever seen any tourney results/anyone ever mention you anywhere) so I can't berate you..... yet.
Niko, for beating Icies (cause I've played against Jflo/Vanz/jesse a bunch), I find that even when they are together they can't do **** to you if you space Fairs in their face. The only option they have is to WD away from you to escape, and then I guess they would try coming in with another wavesmash/desynch or something, who knows I don't **** with the Icies. Space fairs, don't get grabbed, Dtilt any approach they try to take on you and make sure to gimp nana all day cause she is stupid as hell when shes by herself (unless its Jesse's Nana).
Edit:
just saw your post. I agree, I find it funny how people in here who aren't as good as you or J-Flo are talking down on him lol, w'e. I like Nair vs. them, I just don't like the wind down lag. Plus from a SH Fair, you could either Fair again, uair, DJ to a platform or something, or just land. You have more options than Nair which you are forced to commit to.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
As long as he has a good sense of when fsmashes will land, he's not getting lucky, he's just making the right decision. Nobody ever says that Azen is lucky, even though he lands more "random" fsmashes than any other Marth out there.
Nairs are good. I don't know what you're talking about. If used correctly, they're difficult for IC's to punish.
I agree that fair is important in this match-up. In the same way that dtilt is unpunishable, so are fairs, if you space them against shield grabs.
Niko45
Smash Master
Oh **** OTG's got my back you guys better watch out. It's true there is no actual evidence that elven is good, but he says he plays with Taj so I give him the benefit of the doubt. When he says those ICs are bad, he's really wrong, but what he probably means is "those ICs aren't better than Wobbles" because he's from AZ. This would be an irrelevant point tho.
As for POF, well, he posted a video of a fox running into his fair and getting chain grabbed. I think I'm ok.
The fsmashes are lucky because tho the prediction is correct, he could start baiting them and punish me for it.
The nairs in place are not lucky...and looking back at what POF said about nair...nair on shield punished by fsmash? wtf?
As for POF, well, he posted a video of a fox running into his fair and getting chain grabbed. I think I'm ok.
The fsmashes are lucky because tho the prediction is correct, he could start baiting them and punish me for it.
The nairs in place are not lucky...and looking back at what POF said about nair...nair on shield punished by fsmash? wtf?
otg
Smash Master
The world's best Doc don't **** around.
elvenarrow3000
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2007
- Messages
- 3,308
I don't mean to talk smack about people, I just didn't see him really do anything out of the grab =P Which is what Ice Climbers should be doing.
P. O. F.
Smash Ace
Nairs are good but fairs are better. That is my point. Fairs cover more ground. To me, nair is more of a "GTF off me!" kind of move.
Ummm pretty sure I said not to critique that match because I'm significantly better than the player....
Nairs are good in the match up to cover rolls but you should be keeping them out with d tilt, fair, and jab. The IC's basically lack in solid range or attacks that outrange marths sword. Falco gets in w lasers, Fox and Falcon speed, Sheik with stupid grabs and needles and combo ability. What are the IC's going to do to approach? Ice block you? down b? You outrange them horribly. See my match up guide for further details. Arcnatural also had a very nice input for the match up as well.
Niko45
Smash Master
Ok, I can get with that. I'll work on maybe just nairing under pressure (outspaced near the ledge) and fairing from a completely neutral position. Thanks.
otg
Smash Master
puckgood
Smash Journeyman
REF CODE: PUCKEDUP
This should be the first of several videos that are being uploaded.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOliwIG3gII
This should be the first of several videos that are being uploaded.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOliwIG3gII
P. O. F.
Smash Ace
PUCKEDUP
I liked your ledge hop dair. mad pretty.
Why are you playing on Corneria? LOL. Ahhh friendlies though, so whatever.
You need to grab more. Like...... much much more. Your spacing is pretty good with your fairs its just that your follow ups are lacking. At lower %'s if you can't follow up with any ATTACK...GRAB for a follow up. Focus on grabbing in this match up. It's literally a good 3/4ths of the match up. If they are near the ledge throw them off and quickly follow up with a d tilt to get them in a bad spot....in center of the stage focus more on u throw to Chain Grab BS. If you dont have that down or are not comfortable doing it get good at tech chasing.
One of the biggest things I noticed in that match is that the Fox was literally just waiting for you to attack and then punished you with whatever he felt like. Most of the time it was an fsmash. Although it covers a lot of ground and can get a stock off fast with proper edge guading, its not incredibly safe VS Fox. Try to bait the Fox to get him to attack YOU and then punish HIM. This match up is a constant camping/baiting game.
In terms of edge guarding you need to be patient. You missed a good 3-4 opps to capitalize on your opponents illusions. Punish this with a jab. You can do a d tilt if they try to sweet spot but jab covers that as well as above him. IMO, its more reliable. When im playing a Fox and I see them upB I try to imagine myself in their shoes and ask "If I was him, where the **** would I recover to?" I recommend counter, f tilt, and fsmash depending on the situation. If they go over you to a higher platform uair or if they go past you on the same surface....re grab them. Think and be patient.
Lately I've been loving counter to reverse upB...but its not safe....just mad fun.
Work on your overall movement. You are too stational. It's much easier to hit a standing target than a moving one. Oh, and never upB on stage....like.........ever. You have better options.
I liked your ledge hop dair. mad pretty.
Why are you playing on Corneria? LOL. Ahhh friendlies though, so whatever.
You need to grab more. Like...... much much more. Your spacing is pretty good with your fairs its just that your follow ups are lacking. At lower %'s if you can't follow up with any ATTACK...GRAB for a follow up. Focus on grabbing in this match up. It's literally a good 3/4ths of the match up. If they are near the ledge throw them off and quickly follow up with a d tilt to get them in a bad spot....in center of the stage focus more on u throw to Chain Grab BS. If you dont have that down or are not comfortable doing it get good at tech chasing.
One of the biggest things I noticed in that match is that the Fox was literally just waiting for you to attack and then punished you with whatever he felt like. Most of the time it was an fsmash. Although it covers a lot of ground and can get a stock off fast with proper edge guading, its not incredibly safe VS Fox. Try to bait the Fox to get him to attack YOU and then punish HIM. This match up is a constant camping/baiting game.
In terms of edge guarding you need to be patient. You missed a good 3-4 opps to capitalize on your opponents illusions. Punish this with a jab. You can do a d tilt if they try to sweet spot but jab covers that as well as above him. IMO, its more reliable. When im playing a Fox and I see them upB I try to imagine myself in their shoes and ask "If I was him, where the **** would I recover to?" I recommend counter, f tilt, and fsmash depending on the situation. If they go over you to a higher platform uair or if they go past you on the same surface....re grab them. Think and be patient.
Lately I've been loving counter to reverse upB...but its not safe....just mad fun.
Work on your overall movement. You are too stational. It's much easier to hit a standing target than a moving one. Oh, and never upB on stage....like.........ever. You have better options.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
http://www.justin.tv/ck_kuroii
If you wanna watch these scrubs. They think they're going to win Pound 4.
If you wanna watch these scrubs. They think they're going to win Pound 4.
I.B
Smash Lord
PUCKEDUP: I'm just gonna give you short notes of what to work on
- Fair: double fair might seem cool and all, but its very predictable/punishable. Work on SHFFL'ing single fair and dashing/wavedashing out of it immediately. Try different timings for it too, I noticed you like to use it at the very beginning of Marth's jump. While this is good for interrupting your opponent's approaches, it's pretty sloppy to approach with. Watch some M2K and take note of how he uses it. He'll short hop, (and depending on where the opponent is) gradually move towards them in the air, then fair and fast fall just as he's about to land, then dash away ASAP.
Other than that, work on general tech skill. I noticed alot of fastfall/l-cancel whiffs, so work on getting those consistently. Work on your movement out of aerials to make yourself as lagless as possible. And one more thing: practice the spacey chaingrab procedure until you get it down-pact.
Remember: 0 - 19% Chaingrab, 20 - 25ish% pivot re-grab, high 20's - 30's% uptilt ->regrab, 40's% SHFFL tipped Up-air -> re-grab, 50's% depending on Di, either f-smash tipper, or another upair-> re-grab, and finally 60's% = f-smash tipper
- Fair: double fair might seem cool and all, but its very predictable/punishable. Work on SHFFL'ing single fair and dashing/wavedashing out of it immediately. Try different timings for it too, I noticed you like to use it at the very beginning of Marth's jump. While this is good for interrupting your opponent's approaches, it's pretty sloppy to approach with. Watch some M2K and take note of how he uses it. He'll short hop, (and depending on where the opponent is) gradually move towards them in the air, then fair and fast fall just as he's about to land, then dash away ASAP.
Other than that, work on general tech skill. I noticed alot of fastfall/l-cancel whiffs, so work on getting those consistently. Work on your movement out of aerials to make yourself as lagless as possible. And one more thing: practice the spacey chaingrab procedure until you get it down-pact.
Remember: 0 - 19% Chaingrab, 20 - 25ish% pivot re-grab, high 20's - 30's% uptilt ->regrab, 40's% SHFFL tipped Up-air -> re-grab, 50's% depending on Di, either f-smash tipper, or another upair-> re-grab, and finally 60's% = f-smash tipper
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Dart
Smash Lord
otg
Smash Master
I've played POF before, Elvenarrow just trolls smashboards, so yes I can safely say that Nik/JFlo are better players.
KK:
I posted that vid in response to Elvenarrow's claim that JFlo couldn't punish from grabs and did nothing but WD -> smash all day. JFlo's nasty, thats all I'm saying.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
So basically you said and provided evidence that "He can punish falcon" to counter elven's critique of his inability to punish Marth?
otg
Smash Master
What can Icies do from a grab to punish Marth? I have no idea. It was more the claim that all he did was WD around and dsmash all day, which is clearly not the case. I'm out of my element here and this is not hte place to discuss it, so if you have anything further to talk about move it PMs or something.
P. O. F.
Smash Ace
I said J FLO was not textbook.
Maybe hes not good VS Marth? I'm just going by what I was shown. It didn't look like he was too comfortable with the match up. A lot of wavedashes to random F smashes. Am I wrong? Did I miss something?
otg-Yeah, I'm really not the best Marth ever. I'm perfectly aware of that but I do understand Marths match ups more over than most Marth mains. I know what needs to/should be done. I've been around longer than my "Join Date" shows and I'm definitely way over 2K posts now. LOL. I've been here since late '07. I just had a name change because Prince Of Fire is pretty gay. lol. I literally just go by "P. O. F." now.
Plus, that was maybe......five months ago? However, I hardly ever go to tournaments anymore because I really can't afford it having to pay rent, school, bills, etc. Gay.
otg
Smash Master
My post was directed at Elven, not you POF. I don't know how you got involved in all of this, my beef is not with you.
And for the record, I'm in the same boat financially, I've only gone out to like 4 -5 tournies this year. But, I still try to go out and play with people who are more **** than me. School/work **** my time too, so I feel you're pain. I've gotten a lot better since the summer, go down to Wes's place sometime and we'll play then.
I can even give you Doc advice so you can update your thread with legit information on how to fight him instead of "Try and get grabs, uthrow is really good" LOLLLL.
And for the record, I'm in the same boat financially, I've only gone out to like 4 -5 tournies this year. But, I still try to go out and play with people who are more **** than me. School/work **** my time too, so I feel you're pain. I've gotten a lot better since the summer, go down to Wes's place sometime and we'll play then.
I can even give you Doc advice so you can update your thread with legit information on how to fight him instead of "Try and get grabs, uthrow is really good" LOLLLL.
Niko45
Smash Master
KK what are you doing?
Elven was very wrong about the ICs because he barely watched the vid(s) and/or doesn't know too much about IC's gameplay.
And to say "he just chaingrabbed him for 2 stocks and didn't do anything else" is just saying "he played ICs and took 2 stocks". The point is that he played relatively competitively with Scar.
What's not to get?
Elven was very wrong about the ICs because he barely watched the vid(s) and/or doesn't know too much about IC's gameplay.
And to say "he just chaingrabbed him for 2 stocks and didn't do anything else" is just saying "he played ICs and took 2 stocks". The point is that he played relatively competitively with Scar.
What's not to get?
otg
Smash Master
Dude just let tihs one die, it's not worth it lol.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
This is fair.
I didn't understand how the two were related. At this point I'm aware I've been dumb, though.Niko45 said:
I agree elven was wrong, too.
otg
Smash Master
****, that was a close call right there. I expected the beligerent canadian wrath to explode all over this thread.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I was largely confused because aside from the D-throw reverse Dair chain grab, his throw follows amounted to "D-throw --> nothing".
If the point was to demonstrate his skill then whatever.
If the point was to demonstrate his skill then whatever.
Hi KirbyKaze!
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
otg
Smash Master
I'm probably not going to pound due to $$ issues/lack of housing. My boy Logik from TFS was living down in SoVa up until about a week ago, so with his departure my potential housing situation has dissolved. You teamed with Jona right? I'm sure that went well
DK dittos would be amazing, and I somehow doubt you'll touch the sludge with the feebler Mario, but you are more than welcome to try. Any time you're in Tri-state please drop by the TFS thread (or just do it anyway)
CHival i also heard you played my crewmate stratford :D
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Aw. Sorry about your money issue. Well, surprise me and show up to Pound anyway.
If I'm in New York, I'll definitely find some way to contact you gaiz.
Hey, Jungle. Why'd you change your name?
Yeah, Stratford ***** me in a couple Fox dittos. I'm so bad at this game. ^_^
If I'm in New York, I'll definitely find some way to contact you gaiz.
Hey, Jungle. Why'd you change your name?
Yeah, Stratford ***** me in a couple Fox dittos. I'm so bad at this game. ^_^
Peer pressure ._.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
I guess ScumFever is a pretty cool name.