Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
attention
axe called me a faggot today.
it was glorious.
axe called me a faggot today.
it was glorious.
-
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Q&A "Everyone Look At Me!" The Marth Video Critique Thread.
- Thread starter P. O. F.
- Start date
.Chipmunk.
Smash Ace
...the -guy- who uses -pikachu-???
Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
what am i doing wrong vs campy/patient peaches? i have a decent amount of experience with peach cuz of axe's, but he's so aggressive with everyone, i always feel really uncomfortable vs peach's turnip game
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtqTutAxIhY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfQF43aesEU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtqTutAxIhY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfQF43aesEU
JediSange
Smash Apprentice
From what I see, there are two really big points about this (and be mindful, you're a better Marth than I am, lol... so I feel a bit out of place giving advice):
1. I think from watching your Marth (I've followed you for a long time), you focus a lot on the combo game. All of the things you do, are the options you would take to get the bigger combos it feels like. With Peach I don't think this works great, especially one that plays that safe. I'd say just try to tip everything and focus on spacing more in this matchup.
2. Once you can see the Peach isn't falling for fthrow/dthrow/bthrow mixups and DIs properly, you want to uthrow her. Peach in the air is in a terrible position. Then keep her there with your aerials. Juggle her, try to make her waste float, etc.
References:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hm8KUKEE5Rk
M2K loses, but it's still a great view of this matcup
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=297546
Shameless plug
.Chipmunk.
Smash Ace
Anything M2K vs Armada at Pound 4 and Genesis are really good to reference. The link for the pound 4 match shown and game 1 of Genesis helped me get to where I am against peach. I love fighting peach. Turnips, Aggressive, whatever. Doesn't matter. gimme a peach and I actually might win the set. lol
Niko45
Smash Master
I've always been impressed with your peach game. More broadly your neutral spacing where you just kind of stand there and threaten them without doing anything. I think that's a major key in this matchup.
But this is like my worst matchup so idk how to help you lol.
What did he ban out of curiosity?
Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
Thank you very much for #2. I don't feel #1 is an essential problem that much. I think I'm pretty good about backing off from Peach when I'm in danger of eating a d-smash or some bs like that, but when I do get hit, I just ****ed up lol.
Yeah, I need to keep #2 in mind, for sure. I ALWAYS f-throw or d-throw, and it never occurred to me to use u-throws for some reason.
@Niko: Really? Interesting. Yeah, Peach is sorta one of my better matchups. I'm pretty good at a lot of it, but there's still some sorta basic aspects of it in which I'm a bit iffy. I probably just need to analyze and internalize the turnip game a little more.
Niko45
Smash Master
Honestly my .02 after watching the second set is that fthrow/dthrow were working fine. He only really DI'd it correctly a few times. I'm usually a big up throw fan but not in this matchup. You don't get anything really lucrative off attacking peach above you and she has a float/DJ cancel along with high priority aerials which makes it really dangerous to challenge her too aggressively up there. If you notice fthrow/dthrow are not landing you guaranteed combos you could always just start tech chasing instead going for that regrab/fsmash/dash attack immediately.
JediSange
Smash Apprentice
Yeah, I was the same way. I think a lot of Marth's are like "Chance for fsmash? Duh!" My friend who is a Peach main pointed out to me that uthrowing is a great option on her. And I watched the rest of the matches and I'd say your spacing is good, definitely not the issue in the matchup from what I saw. =D
Also, I'd really love your feedback on the Marth MU guide I made. =D *Shameless plug 2*
JediSange
Smash Apprentice
The thing about Peach players is they rely on adapting. Peach has plenty of escapes, and you need enough tricks to take realistically 8+ stocks in a tournament.
Gimmicks aside, you don't get a lot off of grabs in this matchup in general, imho. Yes, f/d/bthrows give you a few options, but they're mixups at best. Uthrowing Peach puts her in a really good position because she's no longer a threat in the air. She can't pull turnips, can't dsmash you, and can't dash attack you. Those are her main options against you in this matchup. Her dair loses to your uair/fair reliably, and her fair comes out too slow to do anything against a good Marth.
So yes, f/d/bthrows work well on occasion, as they lead to good chases/fsmash opportunities, but a good Peach will DI these reliably if they are your main source of threat.
Also in the videos I watched, I felt that TAI went for grabs a bit too heavily. Just camp her with fairs. If she pulls a turnip harass her. She can't shield grab you or dash attack you with one out. Maintain space, camp, punish with retreating SH double fair, and when she pulls a turnip abuse her. If you get a throw try mixups, but go for uthrow and keep her in the air. Play patient and safe. =D
TheCrimsonBlur
Smash Master
If you want a match critique, I'd happily give one on AIM. I feel like it would be more productive in a conversation format....for both of us lolz.
I disagree. Strongly. :/
...what?
I disagree. Strongly. :/
stopNstart
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2010
- Messages
- 228
what about f-throw to dash attack at mid percents (like 20-80 ish) it works pretty well
Archangel
Smash Hero
He's right but I think you just misunderstand what he means. I think unless your playing Peach on Yoshi's getting attacks on her from below won't get you anything extremely rewarding aside from damage. not that it's a bad thing but usually once you uair peach to high enough % she eventually finds a way to the ground and Dsmashes you which is much more a much more Lucrative attack
.
Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
are you talking to me or someone else
Fortress | Sveet
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i agree with crimson. While you dont get exact followups, you quickly make them regret being anywhere above you since peach has no moves to come down with. Its just a tactic to make them want to go to the horizontal, which is where you want them to be to edgeguard.
Niko45
Smash Master
she can come down with bair just fine
she has a float, a DJC, and a fastfall. She's plenty tricky in the air. Not worth an up air.
she has a float, a DJC, and a fastfall. She's plenty tricky in the air. Not worth an up air.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Peach can also let go the rip cords (aka pop the parasol). Shoutouts to Dogysamich.
Fortress | Sveet
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bair beats marth's fair if youre trying to beat her semi-horizontally, but peach is really slow and if you just keep running under her and uairing you wont lose to a bair.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Let's not forget Peach's airdodge is pretty worth using in airtrap situations. The best we can really do is put her back in the air with u-throw.
JediSange
Smash Apprentice
You both are thinking very one-dimensionally about this matchup, lol. It's not a matter of debate -- In the air Peach is at a disadvantage. Her fair is too slow, he dair is lolable, and her bair will be out ranged by any competent Marth trying to juggle her.He's right but I think you just misunderstand what he means. I think unless your playing Peach on Yoshi's getting attacks on her from below won't get you anything extremely rewarding aside from damage. not that it's a bad thing but usually once you uair peach to high enough % she eventually finds a way to the ground and Dsmashes you which is much more a much more Lucrative attack
People say you only get percent out of it. Um... ?? Is this a bad thing? Of course not. You're piling percents on her AND <---- AND
You're completely limiting her ENTIRE GAME AGAINST MARTH. In the air she is worthless. No dash attack, no dsmash, no turnip pulling. That is what she wants to do. She wants YOU above HER. Being below her is playing to the matchup.
Saying ornamental things like "lol this only leads to another uthrow." Yeah, and another 30 seconds of you not taking any punishment, and building up percent on her for an easy utilt stock. Is this a problem?
I agree, f/d/bthrows can get you good things when mixed in, but a more reliable way to deal with this matchup is to keep her off the ground and above you.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Obviously it's a huge advantage to have Peach in the air. I'm just saying that if the matchup were that simple, Marth players would never lose to Peaches, which isn't the case.
JediSange
Smash Apprentice
Ah, of course. But I think Marth players should be going for it a lot, and being dismissive of uthrow as a good strategy is a bit eh imo
Niko45
Smash Master
And what if she air dodges on to a platform as you whiff and then she dsmashes you?
Like, I don't doubt that you can hit peach out of the air a lot but if you **** that up you're going to get ***** cause she's still really dangerous coming out of Marth's up throw...
So is it worth dealing 13% for that? :/
Why can't I just **** her with fthrow. Hitting her horizontally plays to Marth's strengths, too, ya know.
I'm a big advocate of up throw in general against floaties but against Peach and also Jiggs/Samus I find f/dthrow do everything you need.
Like, I don't doubt that you can hit peach out of the air a lot but if you **** that up you're going to get ***** cause she's still really dangerous coming out of Marth's up throw...
So is it worth dealing 13% for that? :/
Why can't I just **** her with fthrow. Hitting her horizontally plays to Marth's strengths, too, ya know.
I'm a big advocate of up throw in general against floaties but against Peach and also Jiggs/Samus I find f/dthrow do everything you need.
TheCrimsonBlur
Smash Master
I'm talking to everyone. Including you
I just think talking about a match does more than writing an essay about it lol.
Why are you getting dsmashed when she is on a platform above you? Also: don't whiff. If she airdodges, hit her again. Airdodges suck in this game.
Samus? Come on Niko. Thats one of my worst matchups so I feel bad even commenting on it, but I definitely know a Samus in the air against Marth is a dead Samus.
I'd recommend going for an up-air against any character. Trapping people in the air and juggling them to helplessness is one of the major reasons that Marth is good...
Niko45
Smash Master
Wha?
I'll take one more stab at this before I just give up cause I don't think we're on the same page.
Ok, forget about jiggs for a second. Samus and Peach.
Basically if you are up air juggling these characters past mid percents you won't combo into anything except potentially more up airs. Essentially you are wasting the damage you do because Marth has a lot of combo (and death comboing) potential at low-mid % in general against all characters. Once you get past these windows it becomes very painful to try to kill these characters and it involves winning exponentially more neutral position face offs. It's during these awkward windows that floaties make up tons of ground or extend their leads as Marth struggles to KO.
This is an efficient way to kill peach: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtqTutAxIhY#t=02m25s
Up throw up air juggling floaties is just an extremely inefficient way to KO and leaves many more opportunities for them to use their tricks (not sure what makes people think Peach or Samus are helpless in the air, they have good movement tools in the air and are trickier than most characters can be from that position). Basically when you up throw a Marth or a Doc or something they are very predictable characters as far as how they will return to the ground so you can manipulate the positioning much better to set yourself up to hit them with fairs and fsmashes that will push them off stage, and on top of that they don't have infinite recovery like Peach or Samus do so it pays off in those situations, where it doesn't really against Peach.
Don't get me wrong I will take a free up air if it's there but I won't actively pursue that strategy if I have more efficient options (which I do from grab).
Against floaties you pretty much always want to be fairing instead of up airing if you can help it, unless it's gotten to the point where the up air will actually kill (one of the reasons I said forget about jiggs is because up air does work great on her, and kills at a fairly reasonable 120-130ish).
JediSange
Smash Apprentice
It is true that they are "harder" to combo, but winning more "neutral position face offs" is only mental. Think about it... if they're at a high enough percent to not be combo'd, in a face off like the one you speak of, shouldn't winning end the stock?
That is a great way to kill Peach. It's also a great way to kill any other character in the cast that DIs in. I'm agreeing with you -- f/d/bthrows are great mix ups as they lead to EXTREMELY rewarding outcomes. However, a good Peach will not fall for that if it is your main grab choice. Realize this as you watch Armada adapt to M2K in the video I cited.
This is just down right incorrect, lol. I'm not trying to be aggressive or anything, but realize that when Husband and Wife say "Yeah, Peach in the air is terrible against Marth," they mean it. It's because none of her aerials will beat ours in the air. Fair/uair reliably juggle her. Yes, she can escape that... but then it becomes a glorified reset.
The point I think you're missing is that... it's not about KOing them. It's about limiting what they do to you -- entirely. Peach is trying to turnip camp you, dash attack you, hit you while you're above her, or dsmash you. All of these options are ENTIRELY gone from her when she's being juggled. I'd rather have an 8 minute match where my opponent does nothing, than giving them the option of hitting me even once.
Over all I agree with you. Fairs give you a lot more than Uairs. I'm not saying prioritize uairs over fairs. What I'm saying is keep Peach in the air, usually above you (as it's rare you'll get a good Peach to hover in your perfect fair space). The only thing I disagree with here is that you have better options from grab.
Understand that f/d/bthrow can be DI'd. Your "more efficient option" approaches 0% efficiency when it stops working. Uthrow always works for it's purpose -- limiting the Peach. You won't always get a juggle or a kill out of it, but it stops the pressure on you and let's you control the game. Yes, she can get out of it. No, it's not great for killing her. But yes, it probably should be your main throw against a Peach player.
Good. Day. Sir.
Fortress | Sveet
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Keeping someone in the air with marth's amazing air traps is a great idea. If you guys want to resist the idea of doing it, go ahead. We pointed it out, and all i'm hearing is johns from people saying not to do it. "But what if you mess up!? Peach will dsmash me!" Johns.
JediSange
Smash Apprentice
Niko45
Smash Master
It's not so much resisting the idea as much as it is been there done that over it/I'll use it when it's my best option available.
But okie dokes I'll keep doing me and you keep playing fox. <3
TheCrimsonBlur
Smash Master
Their most useful purpose is for certain recovery situations. Airdodging above someone is almost always a bad escape option. This is why losing your jump above your opponent is so dangerous.
I understand what you are saying now but I am inclined to disagree. I don't want to discredit fair combos in those matchups because, yeah, they ****, but rather the idea that you "don't get anything really lucrative from attacking Peach above you" and that "she's still really dangerous coming out of Marth's up throw"
None of Peach or Samus' tricks scare me in the slightest. Marth has the overwhelming advantage when they are above him, to the point that most players would prefer to put themselves in a recovery situation over falling down on top of Marth (as Sveet said). Thats the ultimate goal, and I consider that, along with the million percent you will rack up along the way, very lucrative. The percent gained is important. Marth's spacing game becomes a hell of a lot more dangerous in neutral position if he has more than one kill move. Plus, though you don't get any direct followups after every hit when Peach is at high percent, you gain enormous positional advantage (nair, fair send her up, giving you yet another opportunity for an uair or utilt kill and dtilt, fthrow, dthrow send her below the stage's horizontal, allowing for an edgeguard opportunity). I think this is the crux of our disagreement: I fully accept that the tradeoff for my character being able to hit them a hundred times in the air is that they can live to ridiculous percents. Thats fine with me, and I won't stop using uthrow to get them to high percent as quick as possible on the off chance I could get a dair kill earlier if I only use fthrow.
Do your thang Niko, but as a fan of yours I'd hate to see you neglecting a viable option for no good reason. Use uthrow. Its hella good.
Niko45
Smash Master
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddZ4lr5ENa8
First match. Pretty good example of peach using the air for approaches, recovery, and escapes. HBK even tries an up throw at one point and gets involved in a trade with peach nair, which obviously blows.
First match. Pretty good example of peach using the air for approaches, recovery, and escapes. HBK even tries an up throw at one point and gets involved in a trade with peach nair, which obviously blows.
mers
Smash Ace
I think uthrow is overrated in general. Fthrow is so ****ing good it's silly sometimes.
Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
fthrow is ****ing amazing when it works
but the thing is that it seems that if they DI down and away, you can't really do anything
but the thing is that it seems that if they DI down and away, you can't really do anything
mers
Smash Ace
I dunno. You can't directly combo, true. But I feel like it puts them in a really threatened, disadvantageous position. That, combined with how quickly they are forced to make decisions, makes for awesomeness.
IDK. I think Falco's fthrow kicks ***, and Marth's is like the same thing except way better.
IDK. I think Falco's fthrow kicks ***, and Marth's is like the same thing except way better.
.Chipmunk.
Smash Ace
That's when you start mixing your grab game. If they DI for a forward throw and you down throw? Perfect time for an fsmash etc. Back throw regrab for lulz
JediSange
Smash Apprentice
F/d/bthrow
1 - bad
2 - missed tipped dash attack, almost got punished by dsmash
3 - Got nothing out of it (the dash attack was from a neutral position with both)
4 - regrab to an uthrow (the first)
5 - put peach on the ledge, one dtilt, minor pressure
6 - Nothing
7 - Peach DI'd in, he got a dtilt (out of bad DI...)
8 - Peach DI'd in, he gets fair combo out of it
9 - Nothing, regrab after ledge pressure
10 - Nothing, ledge pressure
Just saying, out of the 10 throws I saw (wasn't paying a lot of attention, but think I got them all).... he got a few dtilts and some fair combos. Ultimately the 10th throw lead to the pressure to kill last stock.
In any case, that is not great compared to the pressure you let off from uthrow. Try it. Or don't. Your choice. =D
Archangel
Smash Hero
JediSange
Smash Apprentice
I mean, I'm a lot better now and that was before I knew the MU :X My being bad doesn't change how the matchup should be played, lol.
TheCrimsonBlur
Smash Master
**** move Spam.
JediSange
Smash Apprentice
I mean, I really don't mind, lol. He has a right to call me out on **** videos that get uploaded like that. But Crimson can testify... he played me this weekend. I've elevated way beyond that.**** move Spam.