Q&A "Everyone Look At Me!" The Marth Video Critique Thread.

[Beat!]

He said that? Where? When?

Sounds cool.

 

[MasterShake]

I believe that, it's how I feel whenever I watch videos of Mango's marth. His creativeness with a character just shows previously unknown or rarely known strategies that the "mainstream" users of said character can implement into their own game. I for one am using downsmash and dair a lot more, with moderate success.

 

[mers]

Right now I believe the metagame is very tech-heavy. Fox and Falco are dominating more than they ever have in the past because their overwhelming in-your-face offense is very suited to the way people play right now.

I think people try to play Marth that way too, but it doesn't work. He's not suited to "attack the **** out of them superfast" strategy. Every time Marth swings his sword, he becomes vulnerable. Not always directly to being hit, but he loses options and the opponent gets a chance to push the balance back in his favor.

Marth is good because of his ability to control a player and shut down their choices, but when people go nuts with his sword he loses that.

I know Cactuar always says Marths need to swing their sword "faster, harder, and with more precision," and I definitely agree with him, but I think at the same time they need to swing their sword less. Marth requires the most thinking and manipulation out of all the tourney-viable characters, so players should think before they swing.

 

[Metal Reeper]

Marth is the character that depends more heavily more on accuracy than any other character.

 

[Niko45]

Right now I believe the metagame is very tech-heavy. Fox and Falco are dominating more than they ever have in the past because their overwhelming in-your-face offense is very suited to the way people play right now.

I think people try to play Marth that way too, but it doesn't work. He's not suited to "attack the **** out of them superfast" strategy. Every time Marth swings his sword, he becomes vulnerable. Not always directly to being hit, but he loses options and the opponent gets a chance to push the balance back in his favor.

Marth is good because of his ability to control a player and shut down their choices, but when people go nuts with his sword he loses that.

I know Cactuar always says Marths need to swing their sword "faster, harder, and with more precision," and I definitely agree with him, but I think at the same time they need to swing their sword less. Marth requires the most thinking and manipulation out of all the tourney-viable characters, so players should think before they swing.

I think spacies are dominating because they're really versatile. They can play offensively like you said, but they can also be played gay/safe/campy. The lesser spacies players will heavily favor one play style, while the top players are unpredictable as they could play safe or aggressively at any given moment. Not to mention if they're not messing up tech skill they're incredibly gifted characters and pretty much have even or better matchups with the entire cast, making them ideal tournament characters.

As far as Marth goes, I think he needs to be played more offensively to keep up with this. He needs to be able to take charge and dictate what's happening in the match sometimes, not always playing defensively and reacting to what's given to him. You need to approach in order to set up those defensive assets he has. So I don't think it's a matter of swinging the sword less, just swinging the sword better.

 

[Metal Reeper]

Marth can't play defensivly vs spacies. This is why M2K gets owned. He is a counterfighter. He wait til you approach then messes you up. But players like DePeePee are never really open when they are playing. Thays why PP ***** M2K.

 

[mers]

I think spacies are dominating because they're really versatile. They can play offensively like you said, but they can also be played gay/safe/campy. The lesser spacies players will heavily favor one play style, while the top players are unpredictable as they could play safe or aggressively at any given moment. Not to mention if they're not messing up tech skill they're incredibly gifted characters and pretty much have even or better matchups with the entire cast, making them ideal tournament characters.

As far as Marth goes, I think he needs to be played more offensively to keep up with this. He needs to be able to take charge and dictate what's happening in the match sometimes, not always playing defensively and reacting to what's given to him. You need to approach in order to set up those defensive assets he has. So I don't think it's a matter of swinging the sword less, just swinging the sword better.

I absolutely agree with you, and I think my suggestion of less sword-swinging was kind of misleading. Marth DEFINITELY has to be able to control a match. I just think people see spacies controlling by being everywhere at once and they try to emulate it with Marth, which obviously fails. Marth has to make you think he's everywhere at once, and control everywhere at once without actually being there.

It requires a lot of Mango-style aggression, I think, because he's incredibly aggressive but he does everything for a reason. You have to push, and control, and pressure constantly. Pressure with Marth doesn't mean hitting people all the time though. Intangible rewards like pushing your opponent to the ledge or above you, or even mental ones like conditioning are just as valuable, and those are the things that Marth excels at.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

He said that? Where? When?

Sounds cool.

Not too long after G6 2. We were just hanging out talking and he mentioned it.

I believe that, it's how I feel whenever I watch videos of Mango's marth. His creativeness with a character just shows previously unknown or rarely known strategies that the "mainstream" users of said character can implement into their own game. I for one am using downsmash and dair a lot more, with moderate success.

I love Mango's marth, simply because it's so different!
I love Art's movement though, so amazing.

If I could combine those two styles in my game that would be ****.

Marth can't play defensivly vs spacies. This is why M2K gets owned. He is a counterfighter. He wait til you approach then messes you up. But players like DePeePee are never really open when they are playing. Thays why PP ***** M2K.

I think you can play defensively or offensively against any character. You just have to do it -better- Marth can gimp and combo the spacies hard. Defensively would be the gimps off the edge, and offensively would be the combos. Personally though, I hate playing defensively.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

Right now I believe the metagame is very tech-heavy. Fox and Falco are dominating more than they ever have in the past because their overwhelming in-your-face offense is very suited to the way people play right now.

I think people try to play Marth that way too, but it doesn't work. He's not suited to "attack the **** out of them superfast" strategy. Every time Marth swings his sword, he becomes vulnerable. Not always directly to being hit, but he loses options and the opponent gets a chance to push the balance back in his favor.

True to a point, but there are 2 different styles of tech. There's the spacey I'm gonna pump out as many moves as possible and then there is the ganon I'm gonna make this slow character seem faster and limit my opponents approaches while maximizing my range. There are variations, but it's basically just those 2. Marth needs to play the Ganon way of tech. Lots of wave land approaches and retreats, better utilization of edge and platform play as well. That Marth will be scary.

Marth is good because of his ability to control a player and shut down their choices, but when people go nuts with his sword he loses that.

I know Cactuar always says Marths need to swing their sword "faster, harder, and with more precision," and I definitely agree with him, but I think at the same time they need to swing their sword less. Marth requires the most thinking and manipulation out of all the tourney-viable characters, so players should think before they swing.

A unique thing about Marth is that he can limit options by doing nothing at all. Short hop fast falling in place cuts down so many options it's unreal. Marth's dash dance is arguably the best in the game, and because of his range, you can threaten by simply standing still or walking if you need to. You are definitely right. The sword doesn't always have to come out, it just needs to come out at the right times.


Forgot to reply to this one in my post, so sorry for the double guys.

 

[OverLord]

Even though I agree on Marth defense being exploitable by lot of characters, I think Marth can still **** HARD lots of low/bottom. You just got to have a solid game in general, Marths nowadays know well just a bunch of top tiers match-ups, and lot of spacies stuff. You can definitely do more.


In the end, don't get hit.

 

[Dart!]

Even though I agree on Marth defense being exploitable by lot of characters, I think Marth can still **** HARD lots of low/bottom. You just got to have a solid game in general, Marths nowadays know well just a bunch of top tiers match-ups, and lot of spacies stuff. You can definitely do more.


In the end, don't get hit.

Correction: Get hit, don't care

 

[.Chipmunk.]

Correction: Get hit, don't care

I love how this works so well.

 

[OverLord]

I don't like being hit.

 

[Mahie]

Reference code : Mfr
Videos :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCF8QLoJU0w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TgS63aBkLI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ti-i5B6My8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5RPk9RR23A ( First round only)
Any advice? Note that this is PAL so I can't use the Dair spike, it's a meteor.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

You look pretty decent. I'd say you make good choices quite a bit, but you should look more critically on how you take your risks and when/how/why you give up space.

 

[Niko45]

Reference code : Mfr
Videos :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCF8QLoJU0w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TgS63aBkLI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ti-i5B6My8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5RPk9RR23A ( First round only)
Any advice? Note that this is PAL so I can't use the Dair spike, it's a meteor.

Pretty impressive honestly. Nice powershields.

You seem to really be in love with Marth's air game. Some times you seem to be guessing and anticipating them doing things before they've committed to anything, which when you're wrong leads to you being way out of position. Try not to over extend yourself and don't approach from the air so much. Focus more on your ground game.

Same goes for some of your fsmashes. They seem to be guesses/attempts at being random that get you really punished. Against characters like sheik you really can't afford to do this at all.

Overall your fundamental tech skill and movement look really solid I think you just need to bait opposing approaches more often as opposed to doing almost all of the approaching on your end. This'll also help you get grabs more, as I find Marth nets many less grabs by playing this aggressive, aerial-heavy style (I would know, your style reminds me a lot of my own).

You may want to give some attention to your recovery and also how you get up from the ledge, it seems like you're a bit repetitive/telegraphed in that regard.

Nice Marth, though.

 

[Dart!]

I believe that, it's how I feel whenever I watch videos of Mango's marth. His creativeness with a character just shows previously unknown or rarely known strategies that the "mainstream" users of said character can implement into their own game. I for one am using downsmash and dair a lot more, with moderate success.

Just because you saw mango do it on youtube doesn't mean he started doing it first. I've been using down and up smash quite regularly for some time. Unless i misunderstood what you meant by "mainstream"

 

[-Ice-]

Reference code : Mfr
Videos :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCF8QLoJU0w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TgS63aBkLI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ti-i5B6My8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5RPk9RR23A ( First round only)
Any advice? Note that this is PAL so I can't use the Dair spike, it's a meteor.

realy good marth :O

and your peach game is very inspirational

good ****

 

[MasterShake]

Just because you saw mango do it on youtube doesn't mean he started doing it first. I've been using down and up smash quite regularly for some time. Unless i misunderstood what you meant by "mainstream"

Nope, you're right. I haven't really watched Marth besides M2K/cactuar, so I'm pretty ignorant about move usage.

So then marth players, please critique my recent play:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6W_1mFumCNY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cu6bOvB_rc

 

[Mahie]

Thanks for the insight guys.

@Sveet: I'll try to keep that in mind. I don't really think too much about space control to be honest.

@Niko45: I hadn't noticed before but from watching those vids, I tend to really spam random moves at times, yeah. Being overly aggressive is also a point I should correct. I'll keep that in mind as well.

@Ice: Thanks man ! Coming from you it's quite the compliment lol. I hope we get to play in the future, I don't know if you remember but we've spent a few hours sheik dittoing at ESA3 ( Yeah that's so old).

 

[Niko45]

Nope, you're right. I haven't really watched Marth besides M2K/cactuar, so I'm pretty ignorant about move usage.

So then marth players, please critique my recent play:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6W_1mFumCNY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cu6bOvB_rc

I gotta say, I'm not a fan of the dsmashes. I think dsmash has some potential as a KO move and also as a CC counter attack. I believe it was Tai who said tipped dsmash has more power than a Fox up smash, which is amazing...and as a CC, it gives you a quick attack plus a more ranged response than CC grab so it will work at higher % where some moves will push your CC out of grab range.

However, what it is not good for is low % tech chasing. It's just a poor substitute for reaction-based tech chasing. I think you should work on this more than anything else right now because the rest of your game looks really solid. You get sidestep shined a lot, which also speaks to the need for better reaction time. You could also space your regrab attempts so that even if you get sidestepped, the shine will miss. I also see you going for those low % dairs which can be good but again you're not following up at all because you're not getting a good read while he sits on the ground. It might be a good habit to develop to react with jabs after these dairs because often they'll DI to be grounded after them and you can get a quick reset into a free grab. But yea, dsmash. I think you're using dsmash as kind of throwing a band-aid over a weakness by being able to just throw out hitboxes that are likely to hit, yet have much less potential for punishing/gimping/pressuring than reaction based responses. I think you're sort of saying "at least I'll hit them and I won't get ***** off my own tech chases this way." My apologies if I'm wrong, but that's what it looks like, and I've been down that road before so it stands out to me.

You should stop jump fairing spacies on the ledge. That pretty much never works (unless you recognize that you're there much too early for them to take the ledge) and it gives them a completely free edgeguard with the ledgehop bair. Save your side Bs, save your jump. Force them to get off and take the ledge accordingly.

Overall though another nice Marth. So many good Marths all of a sudden.

 

[strawhats]

realy good marth :O

and your peach game is very inspirational

good ****

sucks that you can't go to Genesis, it would've been great to see how you fare against our top falco, fox, and puff players.

 

[Heart Break Kid]

Niko holding it down...but only staying in tri state for some reason? Thats ok, Im sharpening my blade so I can feast on mad people at Genesis. Shaking off the rust lmao

Btw you should at least go to Zenith. Lol get TFS outta NY for once, and that venue is like 15 min away from me so you know I got you guys with housing

 

[Max?]

HBK, if you house us for Zenith, I would make a concerted effort to go. We travel outside of NY sometimes!!! (>.>) (<.<)

 

[-Ice-]

sucks that you can't go to Genesis, it would've been great to see how you fare against our top falco, fox, and puff players.

yeah it sucks maybe i can come to APEX but im not sure yet

 

[Niko45]

Niko holding it down...but only staying in tri state for some reason? Thats ok, Im sharpening my blade so I can feast on mad people at Genesis. Shaking off the rust lmao

Btw you should at least go to Zenith. Lol get TFS outta NY for once, and that venue is like 15 min away from me so you know I got you guys with housing

Called out. Yea I gotta step it up and get out more. Also, very hype for a potential HBK return.

 

[Dart!]

man, watching marth lose to falco on FD is hard to watch. you weren't killing him with your grabs. that is SO CRUCIAL. stop downsmashing at less than 60 percent. stop it

 

[Niko45]

^Try watching Marth lose on YS.

Anyway the set I really want looked at is up, it's me vs chops. I see some things already but I'd appreciate all input. Thanks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmkmE36sFrE&feature=feedu

Also vs. Stric9:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbnZx9BBJzU&feature=feedu

...choked so hard on this one.

 

[Dart!]

^Try watching Marth lose on YS.

Anyway the set I really want looked at is up, it's me vs chops. I see some things already but I'd appreciate all input. Thanks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmkmE36sFrE&feature=feedu

Also vs. Stric9:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbnZx9BBJzU&feature=feedu

...choked so hard on this one.

i already watched the chops set, i have the same problem on yoshi's
Cant keep composure it's hard to keep stable ground on yoshis vs falco if you don't maintain control of the center. also, too much unsafe fsmashes. vs falco, i've come to find the only way to keep falcos honest about their spacing is to wavedash out or out then in fsmash. only do it when you're at low percents...to keep the damage done to you at a minimum (if you miss anyway)

i'll watch the stric9 set later

 

[Roche_CL]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLfAztuQ4zg&feature=related
watch frist stock

 

[Archangel]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLfAztuQ4zg&feature=related
watch frist stock

Thank you for that. *snatches vid*

 

[Dart!]

When i'm done crying over that Stric9 set i'll critique you Niko

 

[ChivalRuse]

Niko, what happened vs Cactuar?

 

[Niko45]

It wasn't recorded, if that's what you're asking.

 

[Dart!]

Selena Gomez, what does justin bieber have that i don't? it's certainly not hair anymore..

 

[ChivalRuse]

Haha, Dart!

Niko, I know it wasn't recorded. I know pretty much everything about smash videos.

I just wanted to know what went down in your own words.

 

[Dart!]

Ok, well do i or anybody else really need to say anything about the Stric9 set other than...that SD.
I can't say for sure but you seemed a bit jittery, nervous. you were too cautious when you needed to attack which stems from the nerves quite a bit.
I will honestly john for you and say you were off this set a lot. Normally i see you and the other top marths move quickly and calculated in this matchup.

imo this matchup is still 60-40 us

 

[ChivalRuse]

Wow. That is rather optimistic. I think M2K would beg to differ? Haha.

 

[Max?]

Chival: Niko won 2-0, Cactuar made high johns, we laughed about it the whole car ride home.

 

[ChivalRuse]

The Cactus needles go DEEP.

Err. I mean, we sit around, pow-wow, smoke'em, and accidentally sit on a Cactus.