Ethical Dilemma

[TheManaLord]

When money matching someone with my Zelda, sometimes, I find it necessary to turn into Sheik. Other times I will turn into Sheik right off the bat. Is this wrong? It's totally within Zelda's capability to use that move. Many people have an issue with using this tactic, though.

What do you guys think?

 

[ConnorTheKid]

well if you both agree to a character specific money match (i.e: my Peach vs your Zelda), I'd have to say you shouldn't be able to turn into Sheik. but if someone decided to just money match you (no specific match up) then you should be fine.

 

[Majority]

You should definitely be able to do this.

 

[Jam Stunna]

You should stipulate at the beginning of the money match that you may turn into Sheik if necessary.

 

[TheManaLord]

Sort of a like a no chaingrabbing clause?

I like the surprise factor, but it does feel like I'm scamming people sometimes. And if I bring it up prior I lose the surprise =( But it's still an ace up the sleeve I guess.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Well you lied about useing zedla for the match say they can lie also about paying you if you win.

 

[EPsilon933]

But Sheik is part of Zelda and Zelda is part of Sheik. They're the same character in two forms.

 

[Shadow Huan]

But Sheik is part of Zelda and Zelda is part of Sheik. They're the same character in two forms.

this doesn't count: the tactics used between the two of them are completely different. :embarrass

eh i agree with c0nn0r actually; if you are telling someone you can beat them with your Zelda and you switch to Sheik that's not really backing up your claim is it? it's like me saying i could whoop you with Kirby and picking Jiggs...

you should set it up in the rules of the MM ahead of time whether or not you are going to switch. saying that you might be switching between the two ahead of time isn't taking the surprise out of it since they won't know when you're gonna do it!

 

[DCLXVI]

This is a hard decision. I think that most people assume that switching is against the rules, even if it is one of zelda's moves. If you win the games says either zelda or sheik wins, not zelda/sheik wins, so the game treats them as separate characters. I would say that you are ripping people off, but that depends on the wording of the bet.

 

[TresChikon]

It should be okay unless stated otherwise. They gotta explicitly make it a part of the MM's conditions that an intentional transformation to Sheik is unacceptable.

Isn't that how Wobbling is at tourneys? You gotta say it's banned to be in effect?

 

[Kanelol]

Aren't most MM's only for a few bucks anyway? IMO, as long as it's not stated it doesn't matter.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

well what if it's a big bet? there's been high bets even just over bottom tiers.

Really no matter what your not debateing about the money it's the fact that they lied over the money.

lieing can also be not telling someone something.

 

[Roneblaster]

if you say "my zelda vs your X" your being an *******. <3

zelda and sheik are different characters. If they werent, they would be in the same place on the tier list. thats the most basic example i can give.

 

[_wzrd]

i say, unless they specifically tell you that you CAN'T go sheik, and you agree with it.
its a war tactic to use deception. if it is not outside the rules of the game or agreed match, then their should be no trouble with this tactic. it is a legit strategy to abuse.

if you really feel bad about winning that way, then you probably didn't want to win that bad in the first place. at which point, yeah don't go sheik, and do it honorably. but if your playing to win, be as dirty, tricky and evil as you can. luckily sheik is very dirty, trick, and evil. esp if you think your fighting a zelda.

 

[Roneblaster]

this isnt war, this is a video game

 

[_wzrd]

i know. but in a money match id imagine you play to win, right? i'm a noob, and havent really been in too many money matches etc. but i know even if i play in a fun, friendly manner for friendlies, that i will play to win, and do whatever i need to to win, as soon as its time for seriouslies.

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw

this likens competitive gaming to war strategy etc.
after reading a couple chapters, i find it to be a very eye opening on the approach to competitive gaming in general.

 

[Roneblaster]

i've said my piece, TML, ill love you forever no matter what.

 

[TheManaLord]

just tryin to scam some *****es. i would be legit against cool ppl ofc =)

 

[Kanelol]

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw

I've only read a little bit of this, but ****. Someone put it in the Everything sticky

 

[_wzrd]

yeah man, its brilliant. im taking notes. i could write pages on my thoughts about it, but i feel that its better for people to check out on their own.

im going to buy the book though, i think it has more info, plus i can take physical notes, and take it with me to smashfests/tourneys :3

 

[xbombr]

You should be able to turn into Sheik. They technically are the same character even though we separate them on the tier list.

They were intended to be the same character by the people who created the game as well, otherwise they would have separated them on the character select screen.

 

[❀W.E.M.P.❀]

Using semantics is a double edged sword, and apparently all the people you have done this to is an idiot if they didn't use your own logic against you.


using Zelda's down B is perfectly fine; However you can not do anything else as that is a 'sheik' move. so if you want to play semantics, you could turn into sheik, and then just stand there for 4 stocks until you die. I mean you couldn't even turn back into zelda as down b the second time is sheik's move.

rage,rage, etc.

 

[Brightside6382]

Zelda is actually better then Shiek so if anything you'd be putting urself at a disadvantage.

No Juans?

 

[TresChikon]

Zelda is actually better then Shiek so if anything you'd be putting urself at a disadvantage.

No Juans?

Yeah, I'd rage pretty hard if my opponent switched to Zelda while I was ****** their Sheik with my Falcon.

 

[Tee ay eye]

Zelda is actually better then Shiek so if anything you'd be putting urself at a disadvantage.

No Juans?

JuanES!

you add an -es to plurals in spanish

 

[Near²]

The only time I would switch if I was in a money match is if I was trying to recover and used sheik to recover (regardless if it's not a better recovery etc) but I would switch back upon recovering. I think Connor pretty much /threaded this.

Edit: Now that I think of it, it's pretty unrealistic what I said (after recovering, I doubt your opponent is foolish enough to wait on the transformation and then attack)

 

[Let It Riot]

It all hinges on what you agree upon prior to the match. If you say I will play you with zelda, then you are expected to not go sheik. If it is simply a money match with no stipulations you could play any character to win. So as long as you didn't say it would be your zelda vs. his character it is fine to go sheik.

 

[th0rn]

this is straight thievery.

that would only work on a complete sperglord.

 

[L__]

i say, unless they specifically tell you that you CAN'T go sheik, and you agree with it.

my thoughts summed up

 

[slartibartfast42]

If you went sheik on me and I was under the impression that you couldn't, I'd probably pause and have a little chat, probably ending in the match continuing with you changing back or with a no contest. I'm pretty sure that if you call for a zelda money match you're claiming you can win with zelda. If you say that it's perfectly legit to use deception to scam someone out of money, then you'd probably be perfectly fine with me taking all the money out of your wallet when you weren't looking right? Or asking for your venue fee when there isn't one and pocketing it. As long as I don't get caught. Playing to win and all...

Then again I don't money match so this wouldn't be a problem for me at all.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Just do this, say: "Let's money match"

Dont bother with character specifics or anything just agree to a money match. Proceed to play as zelda/sheik.

If you say "Let's money match, my Zelda vs your X" you have no claimed that you're playing as zelda and only zelda. Switching to sheik is not an option in the same way as switching to Fox after game one is not an option, as the money match is supposed to be Zelda Vs X

 

[JPOBS]

You should be able to turn into Sheik. They technically are the same character even though we separate them on the tier list.

They were intended to be the same character by the people who created the game as well, otherwise they would have separated them on the character select screen.

this is a stupid arguement.

since when have we ever cared what the the creators "intended" to do with the game?

by that logic, we should play on every stage avaible. Afterall, if the creators didnt intend for us to use them, they wouldnt be there MIRITE?

Zelda vs X money matches should NOT allow you to play zelda. However, if it was me, i'd just ask you befor ehand if you intend on switchingt o sheik and then go from there.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Using semantics is a double edged sword, and apparently all the people you have done this to is an idiot if they didn't use your own logic against you.


using Zelda's down B is perfectly fine; However you can not do anything else as that is a 'sheik' move. so if you want to play semantics, you could turn into sheik, and then just stand there for 4 stocks until you die. I mean you couldn't even turn back into zelda as down b the second time is sheik's move.

rage,rage, etc.

That doesnt make sense at all. Semantically using a character doesnt mean using one of their moves.

You are in terms still using everything about sheik from just standing there.

If it was zelda only and you hit down B. As soon as you finished transforming you would be disqualified.

Most player would let the accidents go and should allow you safe passage back into the zelda form, if not you should be free to defend yourself as sheik until you can transform back safely.

Sheik and zelda are the same exact people. Technically you can use either one during the money match. Thats like playing DBZ and saying Ill mm you with goku. then you turn ss. Its no different

or playing naruto and then transforming into 9tails version. Same character but with diff moves.

you are still doing everything that character was given the power to do. Sheik is zelda with a diff body/moveset. its just a mask.

If you played with items you wouldnt be DQed because you turned metal. WTF ***** you said mario, not metal mario.

YOU MUST SPECIFY THAT YOU WILL BE USING ZELDA/SHEIK FORM ONLY for it to be illegitimate.

you will be considered an ******* if you say mm your x with zelda.

but if you say mm you x with sheik you would be in the wrong for turning into zelda. Sheik is a form of zelda, zelda is not a form of sheik.

saying sheik specifies that particular form, whereas sheik is included under zelda because that is the actuall character.

ITS LEGAL IN TOURNEY TO SWITCH RIGHT?

 

[Roneblaster]

kaos with the super-late rant about things that have already been established.

<3

 

[KAOSTAR]

Lol, swhat I do main

 

[TheManaLord]

it's a dbag move i know, it's just stupid when people don't want to pay up and then we argue about semantics and ****.

 

[Eggm]

it's a dbag move i know, it's just stupid when people don't want to pay up and then we argue about semantics and ****.

I wouldn't pay you either. If you said I'm going to MM you with zelda I expect you to stay zelda the whole time. I wouldn't even argue. I'd just say you played sheik not paying and walk away. I also would never MM you again.

If the thread was about just transforming into sheik while recovering or something cause your more comfortable with sheiks recovery, and immediately changed back once on the stage I'd have a little more sympathy for you.

 

[TheManaLord]

If I can't use down B neither can you. How's that clause?

 

[KAOSTAR]

it's a dbag move i know, it's just stupid when people don't want to pay up and then we argue about semantics and ****.

Lol, and to think, I was about to money match your zelda with my m2 lmao.

I still wouldnt be all that mad tho, Id just have to get at sheik, afterall its only sheik>>m2
^_^

 

[TheManaLord]

Zelda's advantage is still pretty strong, so all I would need is Zelda anyways

But I'll do a pure zelda v m2 because I'm pretty confident in that ^.^

Going to Cat 5 or Apex? or RoM 3?