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Enemies of the Crown: King Dedede Matchup Thread (SERIN IS IN CHARGE NOW NOT GATES)

Gates

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Dark.Pch, your third link isn't working for me.

Yuna, I'd appreciate it if you saved your conrtibutions on Zelda for another time or created a seperate thread for it. If you created a thread for it, I'd be willing to link to it in the matchup summary. Right now we're talking about Peach though.

So, any stage suggestions? Are there any stages Peach is especially good on that we should beware of or bis it just the standard "platforms bad" stuff?
 

Tero.

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So, any stage suggestions? Are there any stages Peach is especially good on that we should beware of or bis it just the standard "platforms bad" stuff?
LOL i was going to say Dreamland, Mute City, Brinstar and stuff ...
then i realized ... it's brawl
wrong topic lol >_>
 

Dark.Pch

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Dark.Pch, your third link isn't working for me.

Yuna, I'd appreciate it if you saved your conrtibutions on Zelda for another time or created a seperate thread for it. If you created a thread for it, I'd be willing to link to it in the matchup summary. Right now we're talking about Peach though.

So, any stage suggestions? Are there any stages Peach is especially good on that we should beware of or bis it just the standard "platforms bad" stuff?
It's Fixed now, and as for good stages for you boys:
FD
Smashville
Halberd
Delfino
Rainbow cruise
 

Gates

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Ok, I think we have enough info on Peach.
FOX DISCUSSION GO!
 

CO18

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Ive thought long and hard about this match up and have played some purty crazy Foxes.

Ive come to the opinion its 55:45 for fox. Ill write up why later.
 

NeverKnowsBest

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Ive thought long and hard about this match up and have played some purty crazy Foxes.

Ive come to the opinion its 55:45 for fox. Ill write up why later.
Agreed. I think we have you down for a 50:50 though.

I will write up why later too, need to collect my thoughts.

OO AND NO CHAIN GRAB FOR YOU!!!! TAKE THAT YOU POOP HEAD DEDEDE'S!!!!

*Dedede up throws Fox*

Fox: WTF?!
 

Conviction

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Agreed. I think we have you down for a 50:50 though.

I will write up why later too, need to collect my thoughts.

OO AND NO CHAIN GRAB FOR YOU!!!! TAKE THAT YOU POOP HEAD DEDEDE'S!!!!

*Dedede up throws Fox*

Fox: WTF?!
Yea I believe its 55:45 fox's favor or 50:50 even, I'm lazy like the rest so I'll be back with some solid facts, and like above. NO CHAINGRAB FOR YOU!
 

M@v

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We have it even for fox, but its anywhere from 55:45 fox to even.

its Ironic really, Fox eats so many CGs, yet doesn't get CG'd by the best chain grabber in the game.
 

Foursaken

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Hey, we're finally discussing the leader of the Star Fox team, an expert pilot that has saved the galaxy a numerous amount of times! Man, this sure brings back a lot of childhood memories. Although no longer in the safety of his Arwing fighter, Fox is a formidable opponent when it comes to ground combat and aerial combat.

First and foremost, you need to realize that King DeDeDe does not have any kind of chain grab on Fox to my knowledge. You'll have to rely on tech chasing or back throws to put on the damage, but that's not to say you can't use your tilts as well. As always, forward tilt pokes and provides spacing between you and the furry, but don't forget to down tilt if it gets shielded. Seriously, you don't want Fox all up in your grill, but on the flip side you don't want to put too much distance between you and him.

As with most other of our harder match ups, Fox unfortunately does have a solid damage dealer in the early percents. Down air to up tilt, to up tilt, to another up tilt, to more up tilts. It puts on about anywhere from 30% - to 50% depending on how quickly you can SDI up and away from him. Most Fox players are cautious with approaching D3, but smart Fox players will force you to approach, and with good reason. Fox doesn't have very many multiple hitting aerials, which means that you can shield grab any instance of improperly spaced attacks. A word of caution, however, do not live in your shield the entire match. Fox's boost pivot grab travels a long distance, which can also be used right out of a SHDL, and a RAR forward air cross up, which is just a fancy term for landing behind you, can put you in a bad position spacing wise. Shielding in unnecessary situations means a free grab for Fox, as well as forfeiting stage control.

In most cases, you wont be getting gimped if sent off stage, unless it's by that rare shine spike, but don't assume coming back to the stage after he knocks you away every time is going to be easy. Fox's forward air is beastly. If all hits connect, your looking at about 20+ damage. Since Fox's forward air sends him upwards, you want to be SDIng downwards and away. You can challenge Fox's aerials with your own, but make sure it's with something quick, like the back air, as you want a move that either beats Fox's flat out, which back air does, or just beats his to the punch. Speaking of back airs, Fox's back air comes out fast, and given the proper set up, can kill you, so recover carefully. Be careful if your looking to land directly back on stage though, Fox's up smash is still, in my opinion, the best in the game. It was in Melee and it is in Brawl. Really though, it kills after about 110%. I can count only a handful of times that I've been able to DI back from one of those kicks, and I have to say that it was pure luck. I mean, the move was probably decayed, I can't remember. The point is, do not get hit by this attack, avoid it at all costs. It's knock back is so immense that even if you shield it, it sends you far away enough that you can't shield grab it. It's super powerful, but your up tilt kills just as early as his does. Fox is the 7th lightest character in the game, a fresh up tilt kills in the 90's, (before 105% if I remember correctly).

Lets assume your playing a Fox who wont approach. This is where the match up becomes really difficult in my opinion. Fox's blaster racks up damage quickly, and forces you to come at him. A waddle dee or doo prevents spam to an extent, but SHDL will normally hit you and refresh Fox's attacks. It's kind of a double edged sword, so your going to want to get Fox off stage as quickly as possible. If you can ever put Fox in a position where he is below the ledge, that should be a loss of a stock for him. Back air wrecks him off stage, so gimp him any chance you get. Here's a random bit of information, up tilt beats out Fox's side B if you can't put him in a bad position. Just wait until you hear it activating, and boom, Fox is sent flying. Good Fox players can alter the distance of their side B, making intercepting it with the up tilt hard. It is possible for it to travel a shorter distance than normal, so try and analyze how your opponent is getting back to the stage before trying to break his illusion. Don't become predictable or start spamming up tilt, as Fox's recovery can be tricky to attack through. Fast reflexes and anticipating where your opponent is going to recover in advance is key if you want to abuse his horizontal recovery.

In the final analysis, both characters have plenty going for one another, and the smarter, more patient player will usually win in the end. Try not to get camped, abuse the life out of Fox's predictable recoveries, and don't get hit. Good luck, and I'm calling this match up 50:50, dead even.

Edit: Thanks Zhamy, I included what you said.
 

Zhamy

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Good stuff; here are a few things to consider:

Fox doesn't have very many multiple hitting aerials, which means that you can shield grab any instance of improperly spaced attacks. A word of caution, however, do not live in your shield the entire match. Fox's boost pivot grab travels a long distance, and can be used right out of a SHDL. Shielding in unnecessary situations means a free grab for Fox, as well as forfeiting stage control.
Actually, RAR Fair travels amazingly far, and will go right through your shield and end up behind you, at whatever distance the Fox player feels comfortable at. Meaning, you could be eating Utilts from behind you, or more laser spacing, etc. etc. It's not a tactic you'll see often, but you should watch out for it.

Fox's forward air is beastly. If all hits connect, your looking at about 20+ damage. Since Fox's forward air sends him upwards, you want to be SDIng downwards and away. You can challenge Fox's aerials with your own, but make sure it's with something quick, like the back air, as you want a move that either beats Fox's flat out, which back air does, or just beats his to the punch.
Actually, you'll probably be more likely to eat Bairs, which Fox will throw in at opportune times, if we're talking about gimps. But yes, DDD Bair ***** everyone.

Here's a random bit of information, up tilt beats out Fox's side B if you can't put him in a bad position. Just wait until you hear it activating, and boom, Fox is sent flying.
Just a note, it's not always going to be that easy. Fox can cancel Illusion to make the distance shorter, which works surprisingly often on opponents who try to predict distance.

Other than that, it sounds about right. DDD can gimp well, can kill earlier, and stuff. Fox can combo, can Usmash, and stuff.
 

Tero.

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Against Fox it's really important not to mess up your edgeguarding. If the Fox is offstage and beneath the level of the edge it should be a secure kill for you, bair basically ***** firefox.
It's harder to edgeguard the illusion, but as mentioned above utilt does a good job and since Fox is a lightweight he dies pretty early from it.
 

Staco

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A good DDD player can hit the illusion with the bair. ;)
I often do it (online, lol, and of course offline) so it shouldnt be to hard to do.

DDDs good grab game really helps against Fox.
 

NeverKnowsBest

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First and foremost, you need to realize that King DeDeDe does not have any kind of chain grab on Fox to my knowledge. You'll have to rely on tech chasing or back throws to put on the damage.
To my knowledge you can also use up throws-up airs and wait for Fox to land. Seibrik at C3 tore my Fox up so hard with the up throw tech chase.

****ing fox players, dedede has the advantage, and a decent one.
No ways! Even because Dedede and Fox are like the coolest characters in the game!

Basically Foursaken covered the majority of what I would have said. Good **** Foursaken.

A good DDD player can hit the illusion with the bair. ;)
I often do it (online, lol, and of course offline) so it shouldnt be to hard to do.

DDDs good grab game really helps against Fox.
So I take it you consider yourself a GOOD Dedede? =3!
 

Tero.

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To my knowledge you can also use up throws-up airs and wait for Fox to land. Seibrik at C3 tore my Fox up so hard with the up throw tech chase.
lol tech chase from uthrow ?
Would be more like air chase meaning follow their DI and then uair, or do I get you wrong ?
 

NeverKnowsBest

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Hey, we're finally discussing the leader of the Star Fox team, an expert pilot that has saved the galaxy a numerous amount of times! Man, this sure brings back a lot of childhood memories. Although no longer in the safety of his Arwing fighter, Fox is a formidable opponent when it comes to ground combat and aerial combat.

First and foremost, you need to realize that King DeDeDe does not have any kind of chain grab on Fox to my knowledge. You'll have to rely on tech chasing or back throws to put on the damage, but that's not to say you can't use your tilts as well. As always, forward tilt pokes and provides spacing between you and the furry, but don't forget to down tilt if it gets shielded. Seriously, you don't want Fox all up in your grill, but on the flip side you don't want to put too much distance between you and him.

As with most other of our harder match ups, Fox unfortunately does have a solid damage dealer in the early percents. Down air to up tilt, to up tilt, to another up tilt, to more up tilts. It puts on about anywhere from 30% - to 50% depending on how quickly you can SDI up and away from him. Most Fox players are cautious with approaching D3, but smart Fox players will force you to approach, and with good reason. Fox doesn't have very many multiple hitting aerials, which means that you can shield grab any instance of improperly spaced attacks. A word of caution, however, do not live in your shield the entire match. Fox's boost pivot grab travels a long distance, which can also be used right out of a SHDL, and a RAR forward air cross up, which is just a fancy term for landing behind you, can put you in a bad position spacing wise. Shielding in unnecessary situations means a free grab for Fox, as well as forfeiting stage control.

In most cases, you wont be getting gimped if sent off stage, unless it's by that rare shine spike, but don't assume coming back to the stage after he knocks you away every time is going to be easy. Fox's forward air is beastly. If all hits connect, your looking at about 20+ damage. Since Fox's forward air sends him upwards, you want to be SDIng downwards and away. You can challenge Fox's aerials with your own, but make sure it's with something quick, like the back air, as you want a move that either beats Fox's flat out, which back air does, or just beats his to the punch. Speaking of back airs, Fox's back air comes out fast, and given the proper set up, can kill you, so recover carefully. Be careful if your looking to land directly back on stage though, Fox's up smash is still, in my opinion, the best in the game. It was in Melee and it is in Brawl. Really though, it kills after about 110%. I can count only a handful of times that I've been able to DI back from one of those kicks, and I have to say that it was pure luck. I mean, the move was probably decayed, I can't remember. The point is, do not get hit by this attack, avoid it at all costs. It's knock back is so immense that even if you shield it, it sends you far away enough that you can't shield grab it. It's super powerful, but your up tilt kills just as early as his does. Fox is the 7th lightest character in the game, a fresh up tilt kills in the 90's, (before 105% if I remember correctly).

Lets assume your playing a Fox who wont approach. This is where the match up becomes really difficult in my opinion. Fox's blaster racks up damage quickly, and forces you to come at him. A waddle dee or doo prevents spam to an extent, but SHDL will normally hit you and refresh Fox's attacks. It's kind of a double edged sword, so your going to want to get Fox off stage as quickly as possible. If you can ever put Fox in a position where he is below the ledge, that should be a loss of a stock for him. Back air wrecks him off stage, so gimp him any chance you get. Here's a random bit of information, up tilt beats out Fox's side B if you can't put him in a bad position. Just wait until you hear it activating, and boom, Fox is sent flying. Good Fox players can alter the distance of their side B, making intercepting it with the up tilt hard. It is possible for it to travel a shorter distance than normal, so try and analyze how your opponent is getting back to the stage before trying to break his illusion. Don't become predictable or start spamming up tilt, as Fox's recovery can be tricky to attack through. Fast reflexes and anticipating where your opponent is going to recover in advance is key if you want to abuse his horizontal recovery.

In the final analysis, both characters have plenty going for one another, and the smarter, more patient player will usually win in the end. Try not to get camped, abuse the life out of Fox's predictable recoveries, and don't get hit. Good luck, and I'm calling this match up 50:50, dead even.

Edit: Thanks Zhamy, I included what you said.
lol tech chase from uthrow ?
Would be more like air chase meaning follow their DI and then uair, or do I get you wrong ?
Hmmm I think I left out some important information. This is done from 0-? Like Dedede can up-throw and then chase ASAP with an up-air Fox and when Fox tries to land, Dedede will tech chase/wait for the grab. Seibrik just did 180's to grab me. I felt like a dork.

Did that clear things up.
 

Staco

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Yes, I think and I know, that I am a good player in my region (europe).
And its really not hard to hit Fox out of his Side B.
Wheres the problem? In melee nearly every player could hit Fox and Falco out of their Side Bs.
Its nothing special, lol.

And I neednt to be a good DeDeDe, only because I can hit Fox out of his side b ...

I hope I didnt understand you wrong.


And UThrow isnt a techcase. Its maybe a follow up.
You can make techcases with moves, which hold you on the bottom, so that you cant shield etc.
e.g.: Falcos dair, DDDs DThrow.
 

NeverKnowsBest

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Yes, I think and I know, that I am a good player in my region (europe).
And its really not hard to hit Fox out of his Side B.
Wheres the problem? In melee nearly every player could hit Fox and Falco out of their Side Bs.
Its nothing special, lol.

And I neednt to be a good DeDeDe, only because I can hit Fox out of his side b ...

I hope I didnt understand you wrong.


And UThrow isnt a techcase. Its maybe a follow up.
You can make techcases with moves, which hold you on the bottom, so that you cant shield etc.
e.g.: Falcos dair, DDDs DThrow.
Lol I was only joking when I was asking if you were a good Dedede =D

Like whenever someone says they are good I always poke at them asking if they really are as good as they say.
 

Staco

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Oh, then I understand you wrong, sry. (Read my sig xP)
My english is horrible. xD

I thought about this beeing funny, but I didnt really know. ^^
 

Gates

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Wow, I almost forgot to update it this week lol. I'm closing the discussion on Fox and moving on.

This is it. The sexiest character in the game versus ZSS.
ZERO SUIT SAMUS DISCUSSION GO!
 

CRASHiC

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Holy hell, Zero Suit Samus has the craziest frame rate date you've ever heard. Its a bit ridiculous. I've never had the opportunity to play a good one, and I hope I never do, because even Marth looks laggy to her.
 

DeliciousCake

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I've never had a hard time against Dedede except when recovering. He's a very large and heavy target, which makes combos on him fairly easy for ZSS. KO'ing is the real issue, and if there's any point when Dedede is going to rack up damage on ZSS, it's in the low-mid 100's when we're focused on trying to land a D-smash for a kill. Ok, that gave you a start, I have to go.
 

RATED

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I know this matchup one of my crew mates main zss, caution with that Forward b first it hurts, u can use shield grabs she " don't have grab" , edgeguarding her is easy thing just wait on the edge if she doesnt use her down b to get to the stage then she will use her forward b so u can't attack her but wait at the end of that attack easy grab for u. if she uses her down b and the high priority kick DON'T TRY TO UPTILT THAT KICK it has more priority than ddd uptilt , just shield and another grab free , if she do down b and footstool u while down b's animation she will jump to the other side of the stage, just follow her (she will do Forward b) so u can use waddle dee or wait and land another grab she is easy to grab bcuz of zss slow grab. iif she lands on u a combeable move then is time to DI like crazy bcuz u are a very huge target.

"friends on this matchup"

1. waddle dees they help to cover the items.

2. shield grab

3. Ftilt can do well if u see her coming rushing to u.

4. inhales are godly in this matchups( I love inhales , the one who saw my vids noticed lol)

5. bair like always edgeguarding sexyness but don't over use it , she has forward b u could use ur bair less to get a kill with it.

6, Fair works great after an inhales on zss.

7. she is techchased easily( that's my opinion)



Don't do :

1. Don't try to rush attacking her. she will get the hell out of u lol

2. her first Jab is quick maybe one of the fastest jab on the game.

3. the items! try to use ur jumps to evade the items. most zss try to bounce the pieces on the floor to make u try to get them so the pieces still will hit u, if zss only have one piece left and is far from u, she will throw it at u ( inhale that piece)


If I was mistaken or someone could correct this I would be pleased
 

DeliciousCake

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First off, it was a mess trying to break this quote apart, so I'm not even sure if the comma's are separating different thoughts or not.

I know this matchup one of my crew mates main zss, caution with that Forward b first it hurts, u can use shield grabs
You can't shield-grab what you can't reach.

she " don't have grab"
She has one, we just don't throw it out as carelessly as most other characters.

edgeguarding her is easy thing just wait on the edge if she doesnt use her down b to get to the stage then she will use her forward b so u can't attack her but wait at the end of that attack easy grab for u.
ZSS has what we like to refer to as "one of the most versatile recoveries in the game." Even if you're edge-hogging, Flip Jump has a property that has been deemed "Special Footstool." That is, Flip Jump allows us to footstool off of any sprite in the game, and provides us with a very long rebound from it. We can footstool you while you're hanging on the edge, and recover well out of harms way.

if she uses her down b and the high priority kick DON'T TRY TO UPTILT THAT KICK it has more priority than ddd uptilt , just shield and another grab free
Flip Jump's kick is also not just thrown out that carelessly either, especially not over the stage.
1. waddle dees they help to cover the items.
ZSS can throw her armor pieces much faster than you can pull Waddle-Dee.
4. inhales are godly in this matchups( I love inhales , the one who saw my vids noticed lol)
How-so?
5. bair like always edgeguarding sexyness but don't over use it , she has forward b u could use ur bair less to get a kill with it.
B-air is definitely your best offense against a recovering ZSS.
7. she is techchased easily( that's my opinion)
I'm not exactly sure how this is different from any other character, unless ZSS' tech animation is somehow slower than everyone elses.


if zss only have one piece left and is far from u, she will throw it at u ( inhale that piece)
I feel like you're trying to impress your friends playing style on everyone who plays ZSS. I know I would never throw a suit piece from that far away at a Dedede.
 

icedragon-

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I don't agree with D3's match up ratings between Lucario and Snake.

They aren't exactly easy for me. :(
 

CO18

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ZSS isnt techchased easily, she can quickly press L and down+b after your down throw to escape easily.

In this matchup I just spam waddle dees, grab to back throw and bair :p.

It works quite well :)

But anyway being serious overall this matchup is 50:50 maybe 55:45 for ZSS. Either way purty even.

@ Crashic you can shieldgrab the downsmash in wierd positions, you can also time your spot dodge and spot dodge the first down smash and youre able to grab before the 2nd down smash
 

RATED

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First off, it was a mess trying to break this quote apart, so I'm not even sure if the comma's are separating different thoughts or not.


You can't shield-grab what you can't reach.


She has one, we just don't throw it out as carelessly as most other characters.


ZSS has what we like to refer to as "one of the most versatile recoveries in the game." Even if you're edge-hogging, Flip Jump has a property that has been deemed "Special Footstool." That is, Flip Jump allows us to footstool off of any sprite in the game, and provides us with a very long rebound from it. We can footstool you while you're hanging on the edge, and recover well out of harms way.


Flip Jump's kick is also not just thrown out that carelessly either, especially not over the stage.

ZSS can throw her armor pieces much faster than you can pull Waddle-Dee.

How-so?

B-air is definitely your best offense against a recovering ZSS.

I'm not exactly sure how this is different from any other character, unless ZSS' tech animation is somehow slower than everyone elses.



I feel like you're trying to impress your friends playing style on everyone who plays ZSS. I know I would never throw a suit piece from that far away at a Dedede.
I know about the "special footstool, thanks for the "help" , btw I am not impressing the style of one zss on every zss mainer. I am talking about my experience with that matchup.
 

Adapt

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@ Crashic you can shieldgrab the downsmash in wierd positions, you can also time your spot dodge and spot dodge the first down smash and youre able to grab before the 2nd down smash
WHen does your grab come out? (Frame) It's quite hard to shieldgrab a d-smash before we can react. Looking at Ankoku's data you have 4 frames before we can jab/down-B the hell out of the way, so unless your grab comes out in 4 frames you have to perfect shield and have a frame perfect grab (perfect shielding will only give you 2 extra frames (assuming the standard 6 frame grab). You can prolly do another attack in this time but once again I don't know your frame data.

For reference: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=213807

The spotdodge can of course be timed so you can grab ZSS before she can do any move though, just like most attacks

I guess what I'm trying to say is that only stupid ZSS users will d-smash twice every time.
 

DeliciousCake

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I know about the "special footstool, thanks for the "help" , btw I am not impressing the style of one zss on every zss mainer. I am talking about my experience with that matchup.
Then maybe you should try rephrasing, because you're acting like every ZSS plays like your friend. Saying things like "She'll always do 'this' when 'this' occurs" is not a logical argument.
 

RATED

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Then maybe you should try rephrasing, because you're acting like every ZSS plays like your friend. Saying things like "She'll always do 'this' when 'this' occurs" is not a logical argument.
pardon then, is just that my main language is not english is spanish. have a nice day.
 

Foursaken

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Land of the Killers, TX
Zero Suit Samus first made her debut in Metroid: Zero Mission, dressed from neck to toe in slim, fitting light blue suit, armed with only a gun that dispensed paralyzer shots. ZSS has received a few upgrades since then, having excellent combos, a paralyzer, a tether recovery, a Flip Jump for recovery, and excellent speed. Despite being on the lighter side and unable to live as long as Power Suit Samus, she is nonetheless a formidable foe.

For those who aren't familiar with this match up, the first stock between you and our space bounty hunter pal will be played with three items from her power suit; the helmet, the blaster, and I believe a leg/arm piece, all which can be glide tossed for use as an approach, or used defensively to create distance. Whether or not you decide to play these items is up to you, but I personally always throw them offstage. My reasoning for doing so is based on the simple fact that us DeDeDe users do not have a glide toss, and by removing her armor pieces from play take away the initial edge she has on us the first stock. She moves fast enough in my opinion, and having a glide toss to use at her disposal only hurts us.

Thankfully, ZSS doesn't have any sort of guaranteed combo on us during the early percents, but on the flip side we don't have any sort of chain grab on her either. Get to back throwing or down throwing to forward tilting to put on the damage, and don't forget to space her if she's approaching aerially with forward tilts in attempt to keep her at bay. Normally I would say get to tech chasing, but ZSS can just L and down+b out to escape quickly. Even if you keep her outside of your realm of comfort, this doesn't mean that she doesn't have insane combo potential. Her down smash suffers from 0 hit lag. Yeah, I was surprised by the 0 hit lag, too. This means that Zero Suit Samus' down smash imparts no innate disadvantage even when it hits something. Meanwhile, the opponent's frozen in shield for 8 frames. Good luck getting the shield grab when squaring off against this move. Although possible, the timing is super strict. She has the frame advantage on you, so in order to level out the playing field, you need to perfect shield her attack, granting you a +2 frame advantage, enough to snare her in your greedy little hands. Proceed with caution, however, as getting caught in one of her paralyzer shots always ensures another shot, followed up by an attack of her choice. This is where her combo potential comes into play, as one down smash means a three hit string at the minimum, meaning that your opponent can put on the damage very quickly should you choose to play impatiently/carelessly and try to rush down a ZSS user. Find openings in between her walls of attacks and exploit them.

If any of you have played Melee in the past, recall Marth's style of fighting if you will. Do you remember how the tip of his sword was the range you had trouble getting past? ZSS has something similar, utilizing her side B, neutral B, and down smash. Perfect shielding the charged shot is an easy task, but the down smash in some cases will push you back far enough for your opponent to use a retreating side B, keeping you outside of her realm of comfort, making this fight long and tedious if you can't find a way in. Not only that, by ZSS' side B hits twice, once when during the whip portion of the attack, and the other during the materialization of the ball at the end of her whip during the end, so learn to shield both hits before attempting a grab if your brave enough. If the ZSS user is playing campy, go ahead and throw some waddle dees and doss out on the field to absorb some stun for you. This could provide the opening you need, or keep her toes trying to avoid the lasers assuming she doesn't get rid of the Waddle Doo asap. Don't spam your projectile if she attempts to close the gap, I'd say about mid range is when you should stop using your minions, as this will only get you punished. When you get a grab, you should always try to put the ZSS in a bad position if you can't land that up tilt or down smash, and her worst position by far is recovering. Abuse the fact that she has a tether recovery, but don't assume it's always going to be a free gimp. Her Flip Jump has the ability to spike you, so be careful when chasing her off stage! ZSS dies to a fresh up tilt at 101% off the top of Lylat, and the up tilt damage added means you'll see her stock disappear with a total of 114% damage. Here's a random bit of information, side B goes through up tilt. The more you know, right? If your used to setting up your up tilts by air dodging into your opponent and buffering your headbutt, watch out if you come in to high. ZSS' Up+B has the ability to drag you downwards if the tip connects, sending your hurling towards the stage or in some cases used as a surprise spike. Learn the timing in which you hit the ground and tech roll away, you don't want to give her any sort of follow up. You need to also be very careful when having to recover back on to the stage. If the ZSS user makes you use your Up+B, that's a free Up+B hit for them in most cases. Not only that, but up air comes out extremely fast, and in some cases can be used to kill, so try to use your other four jumps in a smart manner so as to not put yourself in this situation. Speaking off lethal percents and odd methods of spiking, ZSS in most cases utilizes most of her kill moves in order to space sometimes, meaning she doesn't have a reliable stock taker. With good DI, it is possible to live well over the 140s and higher. This is one of our strong suits in the match, our weight. She has a real hard time killing us, even if she can combo us to SSB64 and back.

All in all, the victor of this match will be the one who can take advantage of the few openings offered up by both players. I want to call this match up 55:45 ZSS favor, but match up experience plays a vital role as well. I'm going to have to say 60:40 if you don't know what your doing. Good luck, guys and gals, this match up is tough.

Credit for frame data goes to Adapt for showing me the application of frame advantage, and Ankoku for displaying it's actual use. Credit is also dually deserved to Fogo for reminding me of side B's twin hits, and CO18's clarification of tech chasing.
 

Fogo

Smash Shinigami
Joined
Jul 30, 2007
Messages
2,800
Location
Kirbykid's ruleset, TX.
I agree, it's somewhere between 55:45 and 60:40.

Maybe 58:42?? :laugh:

But yeah like CO18 said, waddle spam, bthrow and bair coupled with intense edguarding will help you a lot in this matchup. Beware of the Down-b, it beats utilt... *shudders*

(see 2:17 for example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myQd887DRPQ)

Always remember the spacing of the side-b and realize that it hit's twice, once at the gun (base) and once at the tip, (Duh lol) and it WILL kill you at lower percents than you're used to dying at. If your spacing is good and you're brave enough you can actually stand in the middle of the attack and grab when they fall down on you with it. I wouldn't recommend it, but it looks cool. XD

They usually don't grab unless they set it up with a jab or a stun gun shot from my experience, so watch for that, and if they straight up miss a grab through your spot dodge then you can charge a dsmash a little before they can do anything about it and kill them at the mid 80ish percentiles.

Ok, i think that's about it, the rest is pretty much player dependant.


Foursaken for president?? :p
 

Adapt

Smash Lord
Joined
May 7, 2008
Messages
1,489
Location
NS, Canada
I think Foursaken has summed the match up pretty nicely

The only think he missed if that we love it when you use your up-B to get back. If you cancel it you have to be wary of getting stunned, If you don't... we can uair, u-smash, up-B, side-B, or bair you out of it without much trouble. I'm sure other options also exist, but these are the most dangerous. A good Dedede will probably not have to rely on it too much, but be wary of when you have to.
 

Buuman

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 2, 2006
Messages
781
Location
Spencer MA
I have a vid from the finals of the Lob 3 tournament vs. (the second best ZSS recorded right now, meaning making the most profit in tournies followed by Snakeee)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pSZHPsLws0

This is how I played, only match vs. Dazwas ZSS. This may or may not help, figured I'd throw it up since it's the week of ZZS
 
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