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Enemies of the Crown: King Dedede Matchup Thread (SERIN IS IN CHARGE NOW NOT GATES)

DMG

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DMG#931
did u know DDD has a walking CG on WArio? meaning his CG's are extra long, and besides wario's metagame is based on pressure play, not camping. DDD has more range that wario so if wario tries to camp, DDD will counter this by primarily respoding with ftilts and waddle dees.
And when wario pressures, he better have perfect spacing, or elsethat dair can be sheilded ofr an easy walking CG
Lol. Good luck grabbing me, I get a lead and it will be hella hard for you to catch me with anything. Ftilting and Waddle Tossing are bad responses to Wario camping, not effective enough.

Even on a stage like FD you can camp him, it's rather tedious and boring but it gets the job done.
 

Gates

Banned via Warnings
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OMG GUYS I ACTUALLY WROTE UP A MATCHUP SUMMARY.
:O
ALERT THE MEDIA!

But srsly, the ICs mathup summary is up now, feel free to take a look at it.
 

RATED

Smash Lord
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Madness?

THIS IS SPARTA!


But seriously, i doubt i'm ever gonna play a D3 ditto if anything serious is on the line, i'll just go MK and spam tornado first stock and then run for 7 minutes.
if I am to play another d3 lol that ideea of u is crazy lol! and yeah this is sparta

now seriouly when I am to face another d3 I may use olimar in my counterpick. he is one of my 2ndaries.
 

Foursaken

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Madness?

THIS IS SPARTA!


But seriously, i doubt i'm ever gonna play a D3 ditto if anything serious is on the line, i'll just go MK and spam tornado first stock and then run for 7 minutes.
I'M SO SORRY!!!/Comet

Seriously though, D3 dittos are incredibly whack. I would rather us just use our secondaries against each other. Yeah, that sounds good. :) Diddy vs. Lucario is pretty even to my knowledge.
 

Commander_Beef

Smash Champion
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Dec 11, 2008
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Hey Gates, I have a critical question to ask. I am facing a MK for my first round in a tournament. And I signed up as King Dedede/ROB. I have been studying to see which of the two are a better matchup against MK. I was thinking King D, but I want your opinion also. So please, who is better for MK?
 

Gates

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Beef, I know almost nothing about the ROB vs MK matchup to be honest. I know only that it's in MK's favor and that it's one of the few matchups where ledgecamping will not help ROB. I just checked the ROB matchup thread and Sudai and JCaesar both think it's 70:30 in MK's favor, so I'll go with what they said and recommend Dedede against MK.

tbh, ROB doesn't seem like too good of a sub for Dedede since they both have some mutual bad matchups like Falco, Pikachu, MK, and others.
 

DonkeyKongUh

Smash Cadet
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Jul 30, 2008
Messages
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I'd really like you to go over fox, ness, wolf, and yoshi. All of the other characters not their are joke matchups
 

Coney

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I never, ever play DDD dittos at tournaments. I actually scout out to see if there are any other DDD's and if there are, I remember them and CP Olimar just because I won't infinite. Call me a scrub. I've beaten some good DDD's in tourney without infiniting while they were desperately trying to grab me, but all in all it's a headache I don't want to endure.

Basically, an infinite grabbing DDD beats a non-infinite 90-10. If your opponent is strictly of the "play to win" mentality (and doesn't use metaknight lolol) and you don't and you know it, you should prooobably counterpick. Otherwise, DON'T GET GRABBED.

EDIT - Might as well give some anecdotal support.

I beat Kaiser's DDD with my own while he was going for the infinite and I wasn't. It was a really close match, but I pulled it out. It was my first tournament and naive as I was, I decided to CP Pit, lost, then CP Lucas and lost.

Point being, if your DDD can beat ANOTHER DDD, FOR GOD'S SAKE DON'T CHANGE.
 

Gates

Banned via Warnings
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Ok, I updated the next 5 weeks of discussion. This may change depending on tournament results and requests for the matchup.

WARIO DISCUSSION GO!
 

CO18

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Wario be gay if they ban FD

55/45 or 6:4 For Dedede. Only stage d3 has a large adv is FD imo.
 

MorphedChaos

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Its 7:3 in Wario's favor, sure, if you grab him its kinda a lost stock, but good luck grabbing a Wario, and once he has a Damage lead, he can dodge you for the rest of the match, since D3's projectiles suck, and hes slow as hell.

Remember Wario is in the air a ton, rarely ever is on the ground, so you can't grab him, and all his aerials beat yours besides your Bair, but he can airdodge through it and Nair you before you can do anything. did I mention his airdodge lasts as long as a rolling dodge?

I main both D3 and Wario, and its in Wario's favor if he plays gay like I just said.
 

PinkPwnageFrenzy

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PinkPwnageFrenzy
I saw fiction's matches vs. DSF's Dedede, while DSF doesn't have an amazing Dedede, I saw what needed to be seen there.

@Chaos, you're giving me the impression that you don't know a whole lot about Dedede, besides that he has a Bair and a CG. Even if he plays really campy, there are ways to get around it. Dedede has quite a long range, and a mixed arsenal. It really depends on the Wario though.

I think it's in Dedede's favor 60-40 at the highest.
 

MorphedChaos

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Nah, I can just airdodge through you, I'm in the air, my Fair comes out much faster then your Fair, ext... Wario destroys D3 in the air. Seriously, Wario gets a lead on you, and you lose, you can't catch him. and FD isn't too bad vs D3, Castle Siege is a better stage IMO for D3, but thats due to it being my D3 counterpick.

And don't rely on grabs, if you grab him, then good for you, if not, well, don't feel bad, hes the hardest guy to grab in the game XD.
 

qwertyman

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MorphedChaos: Then play a good Dedede either in person or on Wifi. If you can beat CO18, Foursaken, and their ilk easily, then I might believe you.

60:40 or 55:45 Dedede's favor, I don't feel like giving reasons.
 

PhantomX

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You're overrating it, Morphed. While aircamping is great against D3, it doesn't automatically make this insta-win, as even the most minor of mistakes can cost you a stock/****load of damage. I don't think D3 really has advantage though, Wario has to play boring as hell, and only use like 3 moves in his arsenal, and it is evenish. You also can't airdodge through backairs b/c (I think, correct me if I'm wrong), D3's becomes the hitbox, and he can retreat it if he expects an airdodge.

He has terrible ground and airspeed, so now we have more counterpick stages, but he can still wreck you on handfuls of them. Couple months ago I played Foresaken, and I two stocked him on SVille (great stage for avoiding D3s b/c the moving platform makes it so much easier, and it's small, so it limits CGs), only to get two stocked on YI (it's really hard to approach D3 under that platform, and he can get quite a few grabs in the CG. As this shows, on certian stages you're much more likely to get and keep those leads that we need to force D3s into unfavorable circumstances, but in others they can get a lead, and then force us to go offensive, which is what they want.

We **** them offstage though, that's all I know. Harass like hell, force up b, waft, yay :D But yeah, slight advantage but it can go in either direction, I havent tested the extent of playing SUPER ULTRA MEGA AIRCAMPY.
 

Mikey7

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Offensive Wario = 60:40 for obvious reasons related to bair ****, CG, and grab release

DMG's Wario style - 50:50

EDIT: playing a Wario who plays like DMG might even be unfavorable, I can't ascertain that right now, however.
 

Tero.

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Its 7:3 in Wario's favor, sure, if you grab him its kinda a lost stock, but good luck grabbing a Wario, and once he has a Damage lead, he can dodge you for the rest of the match, since D3's projectiles suck, and hes slow as hell.

Remember Wario is in the air a ton, rarely ever is on the ground, so you can't grab him, and all his aerials beat yours besides your Bair, but he can airdodge through it and Nair you before you can do anything. did I mention his airdodge lasts as long as a rolling dodge?

I main both D3 and Wario, and its in Wario's favor if he plays gay like I just said.
"since D3's projectiles suck" <-- actually I should have stopped reading here lol
On a side note: If you play a good DDD you will always be grabbed, there is no way arround, last time i checked Wario had only 1 rejump, so he sure has to land sometime? Or maybe you play with Final Smash on? Wario-Man would **** DDD hard I suppose ...
 

MorphedChaos

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Considering my aerial DI is so great, I can DI away from you during my second jump, and the only thing that you'll be able to hit me with before I jump again might be your Ftilt, if I didn't DI right, if you go for a dashgrab, I can jump before you can, even a SCG. But if I play offensively, then yes, its in D3's favor big time, but a super aircampy Wario = D3s bane. XD

Phantom is right though, one mistake and I could be taking 100%+ worth of damage. And this is better offline then Online, its much much harder to aircamp online >.<

And D3's projectile is so bad, as I can eat a waddle dee or doo in midflight, the only thing I've gotta worry about is a Gordo.
 

qwertyman

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MorphedChaos: I keep highlighting your posts to see if you left an invisible message laughing at all the people taking your argument seriously.







I didn't find one.
 

MorphedChaos

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I can show you what I mean if you wanna test online then, Wario has to just aircamp D3 and it turns into 6:4 or 7:3 wario's favor, otherwise its a 7:3 or 6:4 D3's favor. Online sucks though for both sides >.<.

Fiction has a video of an aircampy Wario, does someone have it?
 

PhantomX

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D3s projectiles are a non factor against Wario. Gordos suck though, they go so slow they throw me off. And it's actually not that easy for D3 to get grabs on Wario, and sure we will get grabbed, I mean, your game is centered around that... but we can make it hell and do just as much damage preventing you from getting said grab. Morphed seems a bit biased, and is speaking hyperboles, but the basis of what he says is true.
 

MorphedChaos

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D3s projectiles are a non factor against Wario. Gordos suck though, they go so slow they throw me off. And it's actually not that easy for D3 to get grabs on Wario, and sure we will get grabbed, I mean, your game is centered around that... but we can make it hell and do just as much damage preventing you from getting said grab. Morphed seems a bit biased, and is speaking hyperboles, but the basis of what he says is true.

Yeah, shoot me, I'm Bias :p, Wario is that good though, you can't deny that.
 

Tero.

Smash Champion
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Considering my aerial DI is so great, I can DI away from you during my second jump, and the only thing that you'll be able to hit me with before I jump again might be your Ftilt, if I didn't DI right, if you go for a dashgrab, I can jump before you can, even a SCG. But if I play offensively, then yes, its in D3's favor big time, but a super aircampy Wario = D3s bane. XD

Phantom is right though, one mistake and I could be taking 100%+ worth of damage. And this is better offline then Online, its much much harder to aircamp online >.<

And D3's projectile is so bad, as I can eat a waddle dee or doo in midflight, the only thing I've gotta worry about is a Gordo.
You are using the word DI wrong, what you are talking about is aerial control rather than directional influence. Or did this change from Melee to Brawl? lol everyone makes that mistake.
 

ssbbFICTION

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Morphed is realllly blowing this out of proportion lol.

Wario actually tries to fight DDD (80:20 ddd)
Wario approaches DDD with really good spacing (between 70:30 and 65: 35 ddd)
Wario platform camps and goes for the fart kills (60:40 ddd)
Wario literally tries to timer out DDD on a small stage (60:40 ddd)
Wario literally tries to timer out DDD on a large stage (55: 45 wario)
 

DMG

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DMG#931
Everyone, calm the f*** down lol. Here is my opinion:

Wario can camp Dedede fairly well on most stages. FD is very hard for him to do so, but very possible. It is boring, tedious, and tiring.

Wario on Smashville, is 60:40 Wario or Higher. Moving platform is just too good for Wario.

Wario on BF is 60:40 or more for Wario, small stage and the platforms are set however since the platforms are stationary you can abuse your maneuverability since they will always be a pain to a Dedede that wants to land at the bottom without obstruction.

Wario on YI is 55:45 or higher, I don't like this stage but at least it is better than FD easily.

Wario on Lylat is 65:35 or higher for Wario, wayyyyy too much room for Wario here.

Wario on FD is 50:50 to 45:55 Dedede or worse, Wario can camp here but the effort required to do so is almost ungodly lol. If Wario strikes/bans this stage, then you will be in trouble. Not very many stages in his favor compared to FD.

Most other stages are 55:45 or 60:40 for Wario. The bigger it is, or the better platform it has, swings it more into his favor. Flat, barren stages that are somewhat cramped are Dedede's favor.
 

PhantomX

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Morphed is realllly blowing this out of proportion lol.

Wario actually tries to fight DDD (80:20 ddd)
Wario approaches DDD with really good spacing (between 70:30 and 65: 35 ddd)
Wario platform camps and goes for the fart kills (60:40 ddd)
Wario literally tries to timer out DDD on a small stage (60:40 ddd)
Wario literally tries to timer out DDD on a large stage (55: 45 wario)
I agree with this. Hence why I said it's even-ish and a tossup between who has advantage. Warios that are informed will not try to do anything except be a *** to D3, making the last two options the only ones that matter. The only small stage that's an exception to the rule is Smashville b/c of our friendly platform :D

Are there even any flat, barren, and cramped stages, lol?
 

MorphedChaos

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Everyone, calm the f*** down lol. Here is my opinion:

Wario can camp Dedede fairly well on most stages. FD is very hard for him to do so, but very possible. It is boring, tedious, and tiring.

Wario on Smashville, is 60:40 Wario or Higher. Moving platform is just too good for Wario.

Wario on BF is 60:40 or more for Wario, small stage and the platforms are set however since the platforms are stationary you can abuse your maneuverability since they will always be a pain to a Dedede that wants to land at the bottom without obstruction.

Wario on YI is 55:45 or higher, I don't like this stage but at least it is better than FD easily.

Wario on Lylat is 65:35 or higher for Wario, wayyyyy too much room for Wario here.

Wario on FD is 50:50 to 45:55 Dedede or worse, Wario can camp here but the effort required to do so is almost ungodly lol. If Wario strikes/bans this stage, then you will be in trouble. Not very many stages in his favor compared to FD.

Most other stages are 55:45 or 60:40 for Wario. The bigger it is, or the better platform it has, swings it more into his favor. Flat, barren stages that are somewhat cramped are Dedede's favor.
Sorry Fiction and Phantom, I'm going to agree with DMG on this one, hes kinda explaining how I fight D3.
 

Foursaken

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Wario is a very unusual character addition to the Brawl line up, combining a plethora of contradictions. He is a heavy weight, yet very mobile in the air, "possessing the third-fastest lateral air movement (behind Yoshi and Jigglypuff) with a solid set of aerials to go with it." Not only that, but this character has odd lag patterns; most of his attacks either have start up lag, the forward tilt for example, or ending lag, the back air. This character is the epitome of hit and run, being able to weave in and out fast enough through the air to poke and prod as he pleases, making match up unfamiliarity a burden on he who is not prepared. First, lets look at the advantages and disadvantages at both ends of the spectrum.

Wario's Main Advantages


Insane Aerial Mobility - This makes grabbing, one of King DeDeDe's best attributes, almost useless, if not incredibly hard to land. Not only that, but attempting to rush down a Wario who is air camping is incredibly hard. Don't ever take a Wario to a stage where he can just run away the whole match, DeDeDe likes small, congested stages in this fight.

Heavy Weight - This is mostly overshadowed by the fact that we have grab releases that set up for the kill, but that's easier said then done. If you can't manage to land the grab, Wario has the potential to live well into the 100% percentile, dying at around 104% to a fresh up tilt. Lethal percentages are subject to change as I believe Wario has an advanced technique called Bike Braking, which is similar to Game and Watch's Bucket Braking. For those of you who are uninformed as to what purpose this serves, it has the ability to halt aerial momentum, allowing Wario to live even longer then he should, only if sent out horizontally, not vertically. Regardless, this can drag out matches until the last remaining seconds.

Shield Pressure Ability - Properly spaced down aerials eat DeDeDe's enormous shield alive. They also have the ability to avoid shield grabs which is super annoying as our character loves it when we press the Z button.

Plethora of Kill Moves - Forward Smash, up air, smart fart, full waft, foward tilt... Wario is certainly not lacking in this department. If DeDeDe is ever put into a position where he must use his Up B, it's free damage for Wario, if not a kill.

Master of Punishment - Do you shield more than usual? Do you like spot dodging a lot? Wario has answers to all of these mistakes, being able to bite through shields, and spot dodges. From what I understand, each time Wario hits you against the floor of the stage, it counts as one of the nine attacks needed to refresh his arsenal. You'll need to be able to fix bad habits mid round if you hope to come out the victor of this match.

King DeDeDe's Main Advantages


Grab Release Shenanigan's - As with most other characters in the game, we also have the ability to kill Wario from a grab release. To my knowledge, you have two viable kill options from a jump break, the up tilt and up smash. Jump breaks only occur if Wario mashes the jump button from a grab, you dash grab him and it connects, or his feet are not touching the ground, i.e. Wario is hanging over the ledge. Bike Braking stops more so his horizontal momentum then anything, so any percentage after 110% should mean death for the anti-mario.

Aerial Dominance - A properly spaced back air will stuff all of Wario's aerial attacks. Rarely will you they clank, and even more so will you lose in this fight.

Gimpability - If you manage to knock Wario off of his bike, he's as good as dead since the Up B isn't that great. A smart fart or full waft will save him, but if that options unavailable, that's the lose of a stock for him.

Weight - DeDeDe will win in a war of attrition. We start dying in the 115%-120% to fresh forward smashes near the ledge and moderately high in the sky to up airs. With good DI, it's possible to live well into the 140s.

Ground Dominance - Forward tilt is a great spacing tool, along with down tilt, and since a grab puts Wario in a horrible position as well as in kill set ups, don't expect to see him grounded much. You more so have to worry about the aerial aspect of this match. Beware for air dodge to grab, bite, etc. Wario players are constantly invulnerable to damage and attacks if they hit that L/R button at the right time.

In the final analysis, this match up consists heavily on the stage being played on. On Norfair, a campy Wario will win 65-35. On FD, this match is 60-40 our favor. I don't know how to number this match up, it's weird.
 

PhantomX

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Yo, the Bike Brake is only useful for horizontal momentum canceling, not vertical, which is the direction you guys usually kill us.
 

MorphedChaos

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Its at best 50:50 for D3 if the Wario knows to aircamp, I can settle on that, but on a stage like norfar, its like 7:3 or 8:2 wario's favor due to how crappy D3's airspeed is XD.
 
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