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Eldiran's PSAs 'n' Stuff: Newest - Zero 1.4

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matt4300

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I can see how this stuff would be the problem, particularly the laggy aerials. I was planning on making an alternate .pac as the solution. Also, is there some sort of wonky behavior on the Dash you're referring to? Or is it just alarmingly quick?



Ack! Freezes are bad. Fixing those is goal #1. What is the cause, or what's going on when it happens??
Yeh, makeing an alternate .pac would be ideal... Hes to well made to have him go to waste in +.

Umm, do you mean about not haveing an initial dash, or his weird momentum problem out of side B dash?

Initail dash- with most chars when you just hit side on the control stick they do an animation (initial dash) then stop. During this initial dash in + you can hit the opposite direction to turn around and initial dash again... Zero has no Initial dash ... So he just turns around in place.

Side B- When you side-B in the air and attack in + zero flys across the screen. The reason for this in + is the momentum code. Sonic had this problem in his side/down B. You might want to see how this was fix.

Also I can't check atm but I don't think zero has any momentum... you may also want to look into that. It would make his Nair approach deadly, and help to land combos.


The freezes happen when I either Pause the game to long... Or stand in place to long. I also had one happen after I Air dashed into a Uair really fast on PS2 going left. Now that I think about it Most freezes have happened on PS2. It may just be my custom music i got yesteday... Havent had much time to test it.
 

xDD-Master

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1.) Aye, the idea is that he primarily will be dashing to get around. His slow walk and run is probably why he feels clunky to many, but I wanted the dash to be integral (that and he doesn't exactly run very fast in the games).

2.) Ftilt's range is so incredible I'm hesitant to speed it up.

3.) The grab -- I know this is the case, but it's unavoidable. He won't throw if he doesn't have a hookshot. Unless there is a way to make articles invisible, it'll probably have to stay this way.

4.) Zero does have plenty of trouble landing a solid KO move (I seem to make a lot of characters with trouble KOing). That's expected -- he may need to get the foe all the way up to 200% before killing. (Which is as it should be since he can hit so easily and safely).

5.) And yeah, CPUs don't stand a change against his Final Smash.

The rest you'll probably become accustomed to as you play him. (Not that I'm not taking those comments into account anyway.)
1.) OK

2.) Yeah like I said only 2-3 frames I think. Because it now feels so immobile. Somehow the whole feels a bit immobile :S

3.) OK than make his hookshot just like links, maybe shorter but quicker :) (Think of Lucas, something like his) This would feel way better than it is now.

4.) Maybe at least 1 good killing Tilt could help here. I liked Links original Ftilt / Uptilt to kill with, but his new Ftilt doesnt kill, I didnt tried his Uptilt that much but I think it also isnt a good killer :S

5.) I know :p

I could may make a video, but the quality of my grabber isnt the best :O
 

Swordplay

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Sorry I haven't played him yet......But I have read the comments. And I noticed you were talking about the invisible grab. I know in MMZ Zero has a this spear grapple chain thing that shoots out and retracts. Maybeyou should do a texture hack for the grab to make it look like that.
 

xDD-Master

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OK I found something... weird, I think this shoudlnt work this way ^^

If you do a second Up-B or Side-B in the air, and you hold to the other direction, Zero will change the direction he looks at, without doing the move. I think you wanted to make Zero cant do his Up-B / Side-B twice in the air, but I dont think that this changing of direction was proposed.


I did some more testings with a friend and I can say the following:

He sucks, he would be low tier. He gets ***** by quick characters, especially by MK (Think about it, he is quicker and can kill better lol). But he is good against the heavies, I think he could **** Snake, because its so easy with him to destroy thrown Nades :p that means snake would have to fight without his nades and there Zero can use his Zair spacing (Zair to Grab e.g.) etc. to deafeat Snake. This are my impressions from the first testings with a friend ^^
He is fun to play, but you really need a lot running away and shoting this balls and boomerang (I already got a 30% combo with "B -> Side-B (Coming Back) -> B -> FAir" xD)
But he is somewhat too slow overall, and really its so f***ing hard too kill with him xD

And Yoshis Island is from now on Zero's Island xD

I will make 2-3 replays of me playing vs. the MK / Snake ^^
 

TeSik

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Yeah I was pretty much the one xDD-Master tested Zero with. ^^
My impression is also that he is fun to play, but the points he mentioned were kinda disturbing. Also, the Zair does not have a set knockback, it increases its knockback with growing percentages of the opponent. Tested it at like 999% on Game & Watch, looks pretty awesome XD
But the thing is that a set knockback would be better in my opinion so you don't have to space the Zair differently for every % so the opponent gets pulled in the right distance for a grab.

Edit: Ah and another thing I forgot to mention: for an unknown reason you can't DI while Zairing. Might also be an annoying thing. Yeah, it is.
 

Eldiran

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Umm, do you mean about not haveing an initial dash, or his weird momentum problem out of side B dash?

Initail dash- with most chars when you just hit side on the control stick they do an animation (initial dash) then stop. During this initial dash in + you can hit the opposite direction to turn around and initial dash again... Zero has no Initial dash ... So he just turns around in place.
Zero actually does have an initial dash -- he just can't dashdance for beans. However, B+'s universal changes might somehow have affected this and made things look weird.

Side B- When you side-B in the air and attack in + zero flys across the screen. The reason for this in + is the momentum code. Sonic had this problem in his side/down B. You might want to see how this was fix.
That's weird. I'm certain :V can give me some insight on that when he tests it -- assuming it's not a complicated solution I should be able to fix it.

Also I can't check atm but I don't think zero has any momentum... you may also want to look into that. It would make his Nair approach deadly, and help to land combos.
I assume you mean his dash momentum doesn't transfer into jumps? That was intentional, but it is one of the things I'm considering changing.

The freezes happen when I either Pause the game to long... Or stand in place to long. I also had one happen after I Air dashed into a Uair really fast on PS2 going left. Now that I think about it Most freezes have happened on PS2. It may just be my custom music i got yesteday... Havent had much time to test it.
Very unusual. We'll have to see if I get more reports of such buggy behavior to figure it out, methinks.

I'll help you with Balancing Zero for B+. I'm totally up for that. :3
Very awesome. I'll email you a .pac with some less laggy aerials sometime today.

Sorry I haven't played him yet......But I have read the comments. And I noticed you were talking about the invisible grab. I know in MMZ Zero has a this spear grapple chain thing that shoots out and retracts. Maybeyou should do a texture hack for the grab to make it look like that.
I actually did; his Zair looks like that. However, I purposely made the grab short range to differentiate him from Link. Also, I would envision Zero grabbing from short range, personally.

If you do a second Up-B or Side-B in the air, and you hold to the other direction, Zero will change the direction he looks at, without doing the move. I think you wanted to make Zero cant do his Up-B / Side-B twice in the air, but I dont think that this changing of direction was proposed.
It wasn't intended at first, but I found that it helps Zero use his Chain Rod for recovery at times. I didn't see any reason to remove it.

I did some more testings with a friend and I can say the following:

He sucks, he would be low tier. He gets ***** by quick characters, especially by MK (Think about it, he is quicker and can kill better lol). But he is good against the heavies, I think he could **** Snake, because its so easy with him to destroy thrown Nades :p that means snake would have to fight without his nades and there Zero can use his Zair spacing (Zair to Grab e.g.) etc. to deafeat Snake. This are my impressions from the first testings with a friend ^^
He is fun to play, but you really need a lot running away and shoting this balls and boomerang (I already got a 30% combo with "B -> Side-B (Coming Back) -> B -> FAir" xD)
But he is somewhat too slow overall, and really its so f***ing hard too kill with him xD
I have to ask -- what Brawl are you playing? Brawl+? Because that B combo sounds less than feasible in vBrawl. The rest of what you mention is spot on regardless. If I find he is underpowered, the first option I investigate will be to give most of his moves more knockback gain.

And Yoshis Island is from now on Zero's Island xD

I will make 2-3 replays of me playing vs. the MK / Snake ^^
I just now fixed the Zero freezing up on his rising jab, though his Dsmash is still a little weird... at least it's nothing gamebreaking. Looking forward to the replays.

Yeah I was pretty much the one xDD-Master tested Zero with. ^^
My impression is also that he is fun to play, but the points he mentioned were kinda disturbing. Also, the Zair does not have a set knockback, it increases its knockback with growing percentages of the opponent. Tested it at like 999% on Game & Watch, looks pretty awesome XD
But the thing is that a set knockback would be better in my opinion so you don't have to space the Zair differently for every % so the opponent gets pulled in the right distance for a grab.
I made it that way so that it became more and more effective at drawing the opponent in at higher percents. So, at low percents, it's not a great tool, but later, you can Zair -> Jab combo, or what have you.

Edit: Ah and another thing I forgot to mention: for an unknown reason you can't DI while Zairing. Might also be an annoying thing. Yeah, it is.
Also intentional, though I bet it can be annoying. I wanted to limit Zair's use to be a situational tool, so I implemented that. You also cannot DI while Down air is being held.
 

Plaid02

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This is awesome. Do you think you could work on Lloyd from Tales of Symphonia next? Then my life would be complete.
 

xDD-Master

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I play vBrawl ^^

The Combo is relatively easy, I did it already more than one time. You shot the boomerang, oppenant tries to approach you (he jumps) you SH and B. He get hit by the shots, the boomerang comes back you shot again and then you get a free Fair or maybe something else :) I didnt saved a replay until now because TeSik does something different for now, but I may recreate the combo in one of our matches ^^
And we both think that he is somehow underpowered, sure we startet him today so we arent that good with him, but the oppenants also have no experience and like already mentioned you cant kill someone if he plays carefully. I think a BThrow Buff would be very helpful since at around 150% Zair to Grab is a true combo, so this would give him at least one relatively safety Kill-move.


This is awesome. Do you think you could work on Lloyd from Tales of Symphonia next? Then my life would be complete.
Yeah a good Lloyd needs to be done :O

I could / would make a moveset for him (I already did one a lot of time ago but I think it got deleted, I had all his significant moves in it o.o)
 

yami_sora

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Suggestion if possible, is there a way to add just combine the up B and side B moves and just relegate them into up B? Think like Pikachu's up B, but you can control the two separate dashes. I dunno if it's possible to allow for two up B inputs without landing or being hit, but that would be pretty cool. That way he'd be able to have a move added to his side B slot, which could help him out.
 

MK26

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http://www.mediafire.com/?zj2oddmz0yy for ZSS fix!
Gains his jump and side-b back upon hitting a wall?

sounds like that could give him a near-infinite recovery, or at least a very long stall...

other than that, it's projects like this that discourage me from delving into psa and trying out stuff, because i know anything i make couldn't possibly look as good as this.
 

Kefrius

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Some suggestions about Zero:

DIDNT LIKE

- Zero doesn't have the ability to combo, try to make Zero combo. Maybe chains of moves such as UpTilt or Bair.

- With moves such as Utilt, Forward or Up Smash, you forgot the speed. I know maybe the smashes are meant to be strong but slow, but you should add speed and comboability to some of Zero's move.

LIKE ;)

- The Dash is amazing, very well implemented, sadly the only thing I could damage Pit was with Dash-to-Nair combo to attack and retreat. The Dash should stay like that, really good ;).

- Buster is like it should be ;).

- The Dash Attack, even if doesn't send foes up for a combo, I like it's speed and reliability.

SUGGESTIONS

- You could change Dair to a Spike, to atleast make Zero any good. I tried Zero versus another Link and won with 2 stocks on Brawl+. But, then I fought with a Pit and he really kicked my hass, him with 2 STOCKS! I never lose versus a computer, even worse in +.
 

LordshadowRagnarok

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Alright, Eldarin, I played around with Zero today and I have discovered a few glitches similar to the Yoshi's Island (Melee) one
Same scenario happened while he was on an Arwing at Cornaria (froze in the animation of the upward swing) and the Arwing flew out from under him, causing him to become motionless midair until hit. The same thing happened in Mushroomey Kingdom 1-2 (and, I'd bet would happen in 1-1) when he broke a block he was standing on.

A BAD glitch I found though was on Shadow Moses. Zero used his Final Smash just as a pillar he was on was rebuilding.... He locked up... invincible.... Think the Kirby FS eternal clanging...

Also: His Final Smash is way too over powered. Shorten it's duration please. It lasts longer than it takes for a smashball for having a chance of respawning.
 

LordshadowRagnarok

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I forgot to mention one last thing. Zero's Dair: Green Hill Zone... Boing boing boing boing boing boing "ow a save point."
 

D.B.K.

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I play vBrawl ^^

The Combo is relatively easy, I did it already more than one time. You shot the boomerang, oppenant tries to approach you (he jumps) you SH and B. He get hit by the shots, the boomerang comes back you shot again and then you get a free Fair or maybe something else :) I didnt saved a replay until now because TeSik does something different for now, but I may recreate the combo in one of our matches ^^
And we both think that he is somehow underpowered, sure we startet him today so we arent that good with him, but the oppenants also have no experience and like already mentioned you cant kill someone if he plays carefully. I think a BThrow Buff would be very helpful since at around 150% Zair to Grab is a true combo, so this would give him at least one relatively safety Kill-move.




Yeah a good Lloyd needs to be done :O

I could / would make a moveset for him (I already did one a lot of time ago but I think it got deleted, I had all his significant moves in it o.o)
Someone on KittyCorp forums is making a pretty good Roy.

Also, Zero is pretty bad in Brawl +. He can't kill until very high percents and his aerial moves are pretty laggy. Still and amazing hack though.
 

zephyrnereus

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after testing zero for a bit, i got a few suggestions. i played in brawl+.

his dash is so useless, that I used side b almost all of the time... so much that when I changed character I continued to press side b in order to dash. you should probably make his dash almost the same as side b, but with minor differences, like dash is slightly slower and side b continues to float when used near an edge.

uncharged f tilt needs to be faster, or at least add some IASA frames at the end.

if you could remove the item grab sound whenever he shoots, that would be awesome.
 

phantomphungus

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Huzzah!

Very well thought out. I played in BBrawl (BBrawl 4ever!)

Well, I usually play with final smashes on, and have a serious complaint. This has undoubtedly been said before, but his final smash lasts WAAAAAYY too long. In fact, it lasts SOOO long that I normally have time to grab ANOTHER final smash before it's even over!! Thus springing a never-ending chain of final smashiness. :\

Also, he seems to be immune to being hit by the checkpoints in Green Hill Zone. Odd glitch I found.

And, please, make his run worth something and maybe change the side-b a bit. It's so awkward to press side-b over and over again when you want to get around. :\
 

xDD-Master

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LOL funny glitch on Delfino, if you are at the place with those "pillars" and you slide down at one wall into the water, its like he falls into the water every frame because he still slides until he is death even when he is already under the water xD (The Sound is very loud btw... -.-)
 

Gregory2590

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1. Zero needs more killing power and more speed. Slow+Weak=no
2.His Jesus mode(giga impact), needs to last for lesser time.
3. Some moves should have combo ability.

And maybe you can have the boomerang shield have reflecting properties?

Other than that, this this freaking great.
 

Eldiran

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This is awesome. Do you think you could work on Lloyd from Tales of Symphonia next? Then my life would be complete.
Thanks. ...Sorry... that's a good request, since Pit fits him perfectly and there's a nice texture hack for it out, but I'll leave that one for, well. Someone who actually... likes the character or the game. <.< I find them both annoying. (Though I do enjoy randomly declaring "inferior beings!" or shouting "demon fang!!" thanks to that game.)

I play vBrawl ^^

The Combo is relatively easy, I did it already more than one time. You shot the boomerang, oppenant tries to approach you (he jumps) you SH and B. He get hit by the shots, the boomerang comes back you shot again and then you get a free Fair or maybe something else :)
Ohhhkay. If it involves predicting the opponent's reaction, it's not the kind of combo I'm thinking of. It shouldn't a problem. As for being underpowered, I'll certainly keep that possibility in mind.

Suggestion if possible, is there a way to add just combine the up B and side B moves and just relegate them into up B? Think like Pikachu's up B, but you can control the two separate dashes. I dunno if it's possible to allow for two up B inputs without landing or being hit, but that would be pretty cool. That way he'd be able to have a move added to his side B slot, which could help him out.
That would work well for his recovery, but would really make it hard to Side+B onstage. Not difficult to pull off, per se, but difficult to use frequently and effectively.

Alright, Eldarin, I played around with Zero today and I have discovered a few glitches similar to the Yoshi's Island (Melee) one
Same scenario happened while he was on an Arwing at Cornaria (froze in the animation of the upward swing) and the Arwing flew out from under him, causing him to become motionless midair until hit. The same thing happened in Mushroomey Kingdom 1-2 (and, I'd bet would happen in 1-1) when he broke a block he was standing on.
Man, do you go out of your way to make these things happen? :p Just kidding, that's a good way to debug it. I should have this problem fixed now.

A BAD glitch I found though was on Shadow Moses. Zero used his Final Smash just as a pillar he was on was rebuilding.... He locked up... invincible.... Think the Kirby FS eternal clanging...

Also: His Final Smash is way too over powered. Shorten it's duration please. It lasts longer than it takes for a smashball for having a chance of respawning.
Now this I need to fix. I'll investigate his FS to fix that kind of bug. As well, I'll shorten the Final Smash duration. Would decreasing it to 2/3 its duration be good, do you think?

after testing zero for a bit, i got a few suggestions. i played in brawl+.

his dash is so useless, that I used side b almost all of the time... so much that when I changed character I continued to press side b in order to dash. you should probably make his dash almost the same as side b, but with minor differences, like dash is slightly slower and side b continues to float when used near an edge.
Thanks for mentioning which version. I likely won't increase his run speed much, considering I want Side B to be essential. (If dashing weren't the preferred mode of travel, then Zero wouldn't be at all like the games!) I imagine it would be even more essential in B+ due to the huge role dashdancing apparently plays.

uncharged f tilt needs to be faster, or at least add some IASA frames at the end.
You mean spinning the spear without stabbing it? I might give that a bit more IASA.

if you could remove the item grab sound whenever he shoots, that would be awesome.
I actually like it on the uncharged version -- it's remniscient of the classic Megaman buster noise. I might get rid of it on the charges though.

Very well thought out. I played in BBrawl (BBrawl 4ever!)
*hi-five!*

Also, he seems to be immune to being hit by the checkpoints in Green Hill Zone. Odd glitch I found.
Responded to your other comments earlier in this post, mostly... but this, this is odd. I'll look into it.
 

xDD-Master

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Just another small request for Zero:

I know that it is possible, so could you make him start with his boomerang :p (He does sto in Trainings Mode but not in actual Brawl)

Thanks. ...Sorry... that's a good request, since Pit fits him perfectly and there's a nice texture hack for it out, but I'll leave that one for, well. Someone who actually... likes the character or the game. <.< I find them both annoying. (Though I do enjoy randomly declaring "inferior beings!" or shouting "demon fang!!" thanks to that game)
At first I liked you, tonight I began to love you, but now I hate you :embarrass:mad:

Meh just kidding, but how can you find ToS (best game ever) annoying ?!?!? xD

I would do Lloyd (<3) but I am still not skilled enough to do neat PSA Characters :S
 

Eldiran

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Yes, Eldiran, Yes I do.
What it says: "1.0"
What I read: "Brand new, unmodified version! Have fun, break ****!"
Exactly the kind of playtesters I need.

Just another small request for Zero:

I know that it is possible, so could you make him start with his boomerang :p (He does sto in Trainings Mode but not in actual Brawl)

Meh just kidding, but how can you find ToS (best game ever) annoying ?!?!? xD
I decided against having the boomerang out to start primarily because it's not an iconic aspect of Zero. A nice extra feature might be the ability to hold a button during his entry to make it be automatically equipped though. I'll probably do that.

As for ToS, nothing too harsh against it -- I just don't like dungeons that are full of random encounters, puzzles and busywork :/
 

IndigoFenix

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Wow, this is truly amazing. You nailed Zero's movements and style pretty much perfectly, I'm very impressed with the result.

Just a few points to make:
1. Shorten his Final Smash. A lot. It can potentially make him invincible for an indefinite amount of time, and that is just wrong. But enough people have mentioned that already, right?
2. His FTilt is tricky, because the first hit usually knocks the enemy out of range of the second hit, and the second hit's range isn't much longer than the first. Maybe make the first hit be a multi-hit attack, leading up the the stab?
3. His taunt with the image...is odd. The technique has great potential for other characters' use, but...it just doesn't seem to fit.

Still, your BrawlBox skills show. I'd like to know how you made that shield effect - it, or something similar, could make a great Geno Whirl, and I wouldn't mind leaving some options open for other similar effects...
 

NeoTLkid

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I have a couple suggestions
- Ftilt needs a little bit more range or a little faster
- B charges way to slow
- Side B should allow you to do more than dash-attack, grab, or upsmash. (main way to travel shouldn't limit your options)
- Faster Fair
- if possible try to have able to run while shooting (like in the classic megamans, I haven't played the new ones)
He's really good, and fun to play as though
I tested in VBrawl
 

.Fade

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I generally agree with everyone here - amazing concept, beautiful showcase of your skills...but balancing needs lots of work.

Anyway....could you please tell me, how IN THE WORLD did you get that side taunt clone to work? That's just ridiculous...I'm pretty sure nothing in PSA will get you that 0_o
 

goodoldganon

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Can you make a PAC for Zero that has half lag on all his aerials for Brawl+ users? It's a major thing keeping me from playing him more. Seems like it'd be a simple change :p
 

Kyzon Xin

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He takes getting used to but then he's very very good. Side Taunt.. MY GOD THAT'S SEXY. i need to know how to do that >_>
he's pretty balanced for Brawl + just needs some speed adjustments with the smashes mainly.
boomerang... again MY GOD THAT'S SEXY.
did you hex to turn off the tornado?
 

Eldiran

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All right, all y'all B+ people. Here' s a version of Zero with the aerial landing lag halved or less.

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?yanmnzzmwn5

Hopefully that'll cure the "clunky" feel for now. Also the above has the rising slash glitch fixed. And here's a regular Brawl version with that glitch fixed. Consider these to be v1.01. (Additionally their Final Smash time is decreased 2/3.)

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?zymggymmn1j

Be sure to place those with the rest of Zero's files.

EDIT: Some questions and comments to answer ... (thanks for them guys! The more feedback the better)

@Zephron : It was done by Dhragen of Stack Smash, so I can take no credit for it.

@IndigoFenix : Thanks! The taunt is directly inspired by two techniques in X5 (otherwise I'd not have put it in). I hope I represented those two well, even though it seems way out of place. It's all through BrawlBox (SmashBox at the time). It's too lengthy to explain in any detail here, but it shouldn't be too tough if you know your way around BrawlBox and edit FitLink.pac. PM me if you want more info.

@NeoTLkid : Thanks for the feedback. Keep in mind you can jump out of dash as well, so there's exactly as many options as with running regularly.

@.Fade : Yep, that was with BrawlBox.

@Kyzon : Nice to hear a vote of confidence on the balance. I did have to hex to edit the boomerang.
 

goodoldganon

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All right, all y'all B+ people. Here' s a version of Zero with the aerial landing lag halved or less.

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?yanmnzzmwn5

Hopefully that'll cure the "clunky" feel for now. Also the above has the rising slash glitch fixed. And here's a regular Brawl version with that glitch fixed. Consider these to be v1.01. (Additionally their Final Smash time is decreased 2/3.)

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?zymggymmn1j

Be sure to place those with the rest of Zero's files.
Thanks a bunch man. Looks great!
 

droughboi

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Dec 29, 2008
Messages
430
Location
duluth Georgia
Can anyone throw up a vid? I wanna see it, but my wii is acting retarted talking about "no disc found" even though its there, it works when it wants to which is rarely. I think I need to send it in.
 

D.B.K.

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 3, 2009
Messages
671
NNID
tinyfuses
Throw in some faster smashes and maybe some more KBG on a few moves and he's good to go in Brawl+.
 

GHNeko

Sega Stockholm Syndrome.
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
20,009
Location
テキサス、アメリカ
NNID
GHNeko
Throw in some faster smashes and maybe some more KBG on a few moves and he's good to go in Brawl+.
ohhhh nooo buddy. He's going to need a lot more than that xD

He sucks really bad in B+ and is probably low/mid in BBrawl/Brawl. This kid barely has anything for him and too much against him.
 
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