Eldiran's PSAs 'n' Stuff: Newest - Zero 1.4

[goodoldganon]

I agree with Neko. He's hella cool and totally flashy but he doesn't have anything super solid going for him. He lacks any solid form of an approach since everything he does has suck a low amount of priority. Blaster is useless to approach with and his grounded dash options aren't very good. So that leaves aerial dashing and getting hit during that makes him unable to recover if knocked off the stage. He always has no way to set up any decent kill, all of his kill moves are too weak. Let's not forget he can't really combo either.

He looks really cool and has a lot of really cool dynamics and flash but he lacks some solid stuff to make him a real contender.

 

[Andydark]

My my...even if he is flawed, he is quite the undertaking...

What if he was given more options out of his dash?

I think it would be fine if his side b would be converted to his default dash.

What if his side B became a...super dash if you will?

Take his current side b, make that his dash. Slow it down...

Then make a new Side b that slightly faster than the original? It might work, right?

...And you said you didn't want to do Lloyd from Tales of Symphonia... What about someone from Golden Sun? <3

 

[GHNeko]

Sooo. After playing like 2 hours of straight Zero. Me and Eldiran gave Zero buffs.

Holy **** it's like I'm playing Tatsu vs Capcom.

****ing CROSS UPS OUT THE ***. And this was before buffs.

Now. It's like omfgwtfiszerodoingidontknowohshi--he'srapingmeinthebuttomgwhatdoido


Zero is so much ****ing fun. IADs. Cross ups. Mix ups. Cancels.

lmao. I've got some SRK in our Brawl gaiz.

Also Dash speed isnt **** LOL.

Gonna play with the updated version tomorrow. I imagine it will work better. :3

 

[goodoldganon]

So we are getting an updated version tomorrow? Cool. I look forward to trying it out.

 

[GHNeko]

Tomorrow I test an updated version. It only adds trickies to Zero's Side B both in air and grounded.

Usmash isnt as bad as I thought though. You can combo into it guaranteed. Even at killing percents.

Fsmash/Ftilt are bad though. xD

As for when you guys get it. Check back with me tomorrow. :V

Though, if you want, you guys can stalk my YT as I am uploading videos of current Zero in B+ to my account and you can see why Zero's IAD aka Instant Air Dash (Side B) is going to be his defining feature in B+.

Zero's IAD is to Falco's Lasers.

EDIT: Wow. DSL is really gay. Only 1 uploaded. ugh.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdotBayIBp0

 

[Poxag]

how did you get rid of the shield and add the blade? also how did you do the buster? I'ts links Hookshot with the hook removed or something, how'd you do that?

 

[Eldiran]

Nice video Neko. You should download this zip file and use the costume and FitLinkMotionEtc.pac within. That should make it look nicer. http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?ymgmln0jlrm

Don't use the moveset inside though, that's v1.0 in there.

I think more testing is in order before I release a new version. (Especially for v/BBrawl. Seems like almost nobody plays that around here.) 'Course, the more feedback I get, the surer I can be when making changes.

EDIT:
@Poxag: Got rid of the shield and sword using the model changer code. The blade is just a constant Sword Glow. These are both found in this thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=246651

The buster is the hookshot retextured and lacking the hook. The hook and shot parts respectively are different articles, so they were easy to separate.

 

[LordshadowRagnarok]

I am ashamed at myself... I was unable to find anything wrong (glitch wise) with the new version... at least, not today.
I have a suggestion though. Would it be possible to add some sweet spots to some of his attacks (maybe Roy style, near the base of his blade) to give him some more viable kill options?

 

[Marshtomp8]

Actually, I can find a huge problem final smash wise for both characters.

Wisp's isnt too bad, but the electric particles stay with it after a final smash, and these build up, after a fair few of them its basically a ball of electricity.

Zero's makes him horribly unbalanced. His final smash lasts far to long. This in itself isnt to bad, but often, a second smash ball will appear while he's still using the first, and because he's invincible its almost impossible to get it, and as soon a the first one runs out he can use the second one instanly, meaning on normal item settings, Zero can obtain infinate invicibility and just dominate anyone and anything. it also doesnt help he can still pick up items and consumables. I'd say the timer needs to be HALVED for his final smash duration, and items should be inaccesable.

 

[GHNeko]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ui_QbXTJx7M - Zero vs Diddy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYAMeCvKHB4 - Zero vs Ganon

lol @ ganon's uair vs Zero IAD.

faaaillluree

and Zero is soo fun. This is done with Zero+ 1.0 in B+ RC1

 

[Marshtomp8]

Wow! I discovered another huge glitch. I'll explain every detail.

I, as player four, tried to play as Sonic, against Zero, Wisp and someone else's Mewtwo, on castle seige, regular brawl, with items on medium.

as soon as the match starts it goes very slow, and then 3 seconds into the match it goes to the results screen with everyone doing their victory pose and it says everyone is in first. usually calling out a random characters name as the winner.


EDIT- It works fine on other stages, right after I tried smashville and it works fine. Also, wisp disappears on Sonic's throws too.

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

I like how both Wisp and Zero deserve their own thread, but Eldiran had the great idea of simply changing the name so it resembles a new thread instead of making another one. I wouldn't really mind a separate thread anyway.

*Looks at Page 2*

-_-

 

[xDD-Master]

I wouldn't really mind a separate thread anyway.

1 Moveset pac for vBrawl/BBrawl
+ 1 for Brawl+
+ 1 Motion Files pac
+ 6 Texture pacs and pcs
+ Some Videos
= New Thread => Epic Win => Finished Character for Mugen Brawl.

We only need the other 5 textures and a moveset presentation Video. I can help in both ^^

I will make a moveset presentation for vBrawl now

 

[zephyrnereus]

ok, so I've been testing out the new zero pac for brawl+. here are some of my suggestions.

• return side B in the air after getting hit.
• either make Fsmash longer or faster.
• either give some IASA frames at the end of unheld Ftilt, or make the ending lag shorter.
• make his grab range a little longer, or change the animation to Marth's/Ike's. the hookshot gives the illusion that the grab is longer than it truly is.
• make Dsmash's range a little bigger.
• make Bthrow a kill throw.
• give Uair more knockback.

I find that zero's learning curve is pretty steep. you can't just spam one move. you have to use the right move at the right time if you want to get to your opponent. once they are opened, zero can do some sick combos with his side B along with aerials, tilts, and smashes. if they try to escape, a few shots from the buster with help you keep them in place.

EDIT: I just found a VERY interesting glitch! if you charge Dsmash and cancel it with a Usmash, the next time he jumps, he will get the jump height of the charged Dsmash! one catch though: he cant get hit or the jump charge is canceled. this shall be called, JUMP-CHARGE! :D
also, you can slow down sideB by holding back on the control stick.

 

[MK26]

yeah, cant you change the grab animation to some other non-ranged character's grab?

 

[Poxag]

Nice video Neko. You should download this zip file and use the costume and FitLinkMotionEtc.pac within. That should make it look nicer. http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?ymgmln0jlrm

Don't use the moveset inside though, that's v1.0 in there.

I think more testing is in order before I release a new version. (Especially for v/BBrawl. Seems like almost nobody plays that around here.) 'Course, the more feedback I get, the surer I can be when making changes.

EDIT:
@Poxag: Got rid of the shield and sword using the model changer code. The blade is just a constant Sword Glow. These are both found in this thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=246651

The buster is the hookshot retextured and lacking the hook. The hook and shot parts respectively are different articles, so they were easy to separate.

could the model changer code be used to get rid of Ike or marth's sword, or Marth's cape and armor? what types of things in general can be removed? but it would remove it for th whole character or just one costume?

 

[GHNeko]

I'm assuming this is for B+, but some of these suggestiosn can easily work in Brawl/BBrawl

ok, so I've been testing out the new zero pac for brawl+. here are some of my suggestions.

• return side B in the air after getting hit.
• either make Fsmash longer or faster.
• either give some IASA frames at the end of unheld Ftilt, or make the ending lag shorter.
• make his grab range a little longer, or change the animation to Marth's/Ike's. the hookshot. gives the illusion that the grab is longer that it truly is.
• make Dsmhash's range a little bigger.
• make Bthrow a kill throw.
• give Uair more knockback.

I find that zero's learning curve is pretty steep. you can't just spam one move. you have to use the right move at the right time if you want to get to your opponent. once they are opened, zero can do some sick combos with his side B along with aerials, tilts, and smashes. if they try to escape, a few shots from the buster with help you keep them in place.

Zero's learning curve isnt that steep imo. But then again, if you play fighters that allow IADs, it wont seem that steep.

Giving him side B after getting hit sounds iffy, especially since he has up B as well as a tether. >_>

Fsmash will only be not useless if it came out faster. longer wouldnt matter because the thing is so **** slow, it could be the length of FD, it wouldnt hit unless they failed to dodge properly.

All Ftilt needs is to actually LINK. **** is so dumb because the initial hit knocks them too far away. Also, he needs frame advantage on ftilt 1 hit because he doesnt. He even has disadvantage from a RESET. wtf. That's dumb.

Agree to grab animation change. AND Reducing the cool down on dthrow and fthrow because they have the most potential to be combo throws.

The issue with Dsmash isnt the range, but how long it takes to come out. Having it come out sooner would eliminate a lot of its issues imo.

Bthrow kill +9001

imo, in addition to Nair and Fair, Uair works so well with Zero's Aerial IAD. Giving it more KB would elminate it's combo potential from aerial IADs and I'd rather that not happen. What I'd want is for a range increase and a hitbox shift so it could hit a bit lower so SH IAD FF Uair's are actually worth using on character's who aren't fatties and on opponents on platforms.

:3

 

[Eldiran]

I am ashamed at myself... I was unable to find anything wrong (glitch wise) with the new version... at least, not today.
I have a suggestion though. Would it be possible to add some sweet spots to some of his attacks (maybe Roy style, near the base of his blade) to give him some more viable kill options?

That's okay. I made up for it by finding a huge glitch in the version :V and I have been using... accidental immunity to grabs. >.>

I, as player four, tried to play as Sonic, against Zero, Wisp and someone else's Mewtwo, on castle seige, regular brawl, with items on medium. as soon as the match starts it goes very slow, and then 3 seconds into the match it goes to the results screen with everyone doing their victory pose and it says everyone is in first. usually calling out a random characters name as the winner.

EDIT- It works fine on other stages, right after I tried smashville and it works fine. Also, wisp disappears on Sonic's throws too.

How bizarre. However, using Zero, Sonic, and Wisp on Castle Siege doesn't do anything for me. I'll need this to be a recurring problem before I have the info to fix it. (Could be something wrong with the Mewtwo, also.)

The Wisp problem has always been the case. People disappear on occasion, due to the nature of certain animations... (Try Up+B-ing Wisp with Ganondorf!)

Wisp's isnt too bad, but the electric particles stay with it after a final smash, and these build up, after a fair few of them its basically a ball of electricity.

Not sure what this looks like, (can't replicate it) but I did forget to fix Wisp's Final Smash since I changed the charging mechanism, so it should be fixed in the next version.

Zero's makes him horribly unbalanced.

Yep, it is very broken. It shall be changed -- there's a good chance the duration will be decreased even further.

I like how both Wisp and Zero deserve their own thread, but Eldiran had the great idea of simply changing the name so it resembles a new thread instead of making another one. I wouldn't really mind a separate thread anyway.

I figured, why let my Wisp thread sink into oblivion 'cause everyone's looking at Zero?

• return side B in the air after getting hit.
• either make Fsmash longer or faster.
• either give some IASA frames at the end of unheld Ftilt, or make the ending lag shorter.
• make his grab range a little longer, or change the animation to Marth's/Ike's. the hookshot. gives the illusion that the grab is longer that it truly is.
• make Dsmhash's range a little bigger.
• make Bthrow a kill throw.
• give Uair more knockback.

I am considering an assortment of different changes that are much like these. Your suggestions are appreciated and will be considered. (This goes for the things :V says too. He helped me come up with the aforementioned assortment.)

EDIT: I just found a VERY interesting glitch! if you charge Dsmash and cancel it with a Usmash, the next time he jumps, he will get the jump height of the charged Dsmash! one catch though: he cant get hit or the jump charge is canceled. this shall be called, JUMP-CHARGE! :D
also, you can slow down sideB by holding back on the control stick.

I see no reason to change these things yet :D

 

[Javon89]

Wow these PSAs are really good!

 

[Eldiran]

CRAP double post. Uh, I mean

Thanks! Hope you enjoy them.

 

[xDD-Master]

Edit:

OK here is the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5akBHwDeMk

have fun

 

[Fool's Gil]

Eldiran you are something else

Anywho, I spent an hour playing Zero, and he's great, tough to handle but great.

Even though most are saying Zero should be made somewhat easier, I think not so much. (except make his A combo a bit faster) Like Wisp, Zero is a character who has to earn his victory. In some circles, that just places him "low tier", but whatever.

Two things that stand out for me. The first is his Dash. Initially I would zip to the enemy, do a little close quarters attack, send them flying, and dash to them again, but after the thirteenth Charge Shot, I learn to actually have strategy, and came to to realize, that with his steep "learning curve" he'll have to be prepared to dash away from the enemy, get some distance, and when the opponent does something wrong, be prepared to dash in and punish the hell out of them, lol. Combined with the B up and Dsmash, Zero can be quite tricky.

The second thing that stood out was the Boomerang Shield/Dash Switch ability. Could you do that with a whole moveset? Maybe combine the two Geno projects into one character?

 

[xDD-Master]

The second thing that stood out was the Boomerang Shield/Dash Switch ability. Could you do that with a whole moveset? Maybe combine the two Geno projects into one character?

If the animation for all attacks is the same than it's really easy (Easy in terms of what to do, but it requires time to do it for all moves, a lot of copy/paste stuff). If the animation also is different then I only have an Idea how this could work for Specials, because they are scripted different, but for all the other attacks I would have no idea how to end an given animation and start another.

When the animation is the same it would look like this:
If Bit is Set [100]
------Hitbox Blah
------Timer Blah
------etc.
Else:
------If Bit is Set [101]
------------Hitbox Blah
------------Timer Blah
------------etc.
------Else
------------Allow Interuppt (or something else (Tinks normal moves for example))
------End If
End if

Then all you have to do is for Example making down taunt Set Bit 100 and making 101 not true and Up-Taunt 101 true and 100 not true (For example)

But I dont know if there is a command which ends the Animation directly and I also dont know any command which uses the animation of another move. I only know how to jump to a complete other move (Which has his own animation).

The thing is that both Genos, may also use different attributes, which also cant be changed I think with Moves afaik :S

 

[wazgood]

Edit:

OK here is the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5akBHwDeMk

have fun

pwned at 2:50 lol

 

[Rikana]

Edit:

OK here is the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5akBHwDeMk

have fun

Wow he looks so awesome. Eldrian, you've outdone yourself. Amazing job.

 

[Zephil]

this PSA is the best thing I has seen in the entire day. This is a master piece! keep up the good work!! now I am expecting a PSA Sigma to have some epic matches

 

[BurningCharizard]

this PSA is the best thing I has seen in the entire day. This is a master piece! keep up the good work!! now I am expecting a PSA Sigma to have some epic matches

Sigma would be an excellent addition.

Ganondorf as the base, give him a permanent Beam Sword, and a variety of his moves from the X series (or reasonable facsimiles thereof) using the other characters' animations.

 

[Salem]

This is very interesting.
Even though I don't have a Wii to test Zero out i'd like to give some suggestions, I seen the vids of Neko/ :V playing Zero and I can see why he's unbalanced.

I also played all 4 of the Megaman Zero games, I don't know what happened after. lol

Just a few new things you should possibly give him:

Bullet Destroy: If he slashes any bullet (projectile) with his sword it becomes destroyed, some characters projectiles go through others moves like Falco, this would be useful cause now he could fend off projectile campers. >
I forgot the real name of this abillity though. >_>

Give him his downward nuetral A: Use Link's second F-smash animation or the Beam Sword F-smash animation.

Make it so he has somewhat of a third charge after charging his buster long enough: this would be a nice kill move, I don't know what the graphics on this move would be though.

Give him his dash attack roll+extra dash attack combination: Simple, make it so when you hold down after inputting the dash attack he does his roll attack, it's basicly what N-air looks like exept on the ground and the extra attack is his normal dash attack after pressing A again.

Make it so when he D-tilt's you have to press it twice for him to do the slash behind him.

He should be able to F-smash in the air: simple input. >_>

F-tilt's hit box should come out faster.

Give him a diffrent ledge get up attack.

Next is his stats, he almost seems balanced, he just needs real kill moves.
One of them should be his F-smash obviously, it should be as strong as MKs original brawl D-smash since his F-smash is slow, and it was strong in his game.

D-smash fully charged should kill like Ivysaurs Up-smash.

Up-smash should kill like Marth's Up-smash.

Give his boomerang slash effects upon hitting a character and make it do mutiple hits as it stays out longer.

Make him lighter, just don't change how he jumps. >_>
Toon Link weight maybe? or give him that Wario weight. >:O

I think I saw a glitch when Zero got U-tilted by Ganon. O_o
Fix?

Make it possible to change directions with Z-air to recover easier, possibly like a B-reversal?

U-tilt's attack should come out faster, the animation speed is fine.

D-air should spike when fast falled.

F-throw and B-throw should have better knockback at 100% so it can be a slight kill move.

But pretty much he just need's kill moves, he'll be perfect after that.

 

[Kitamerby]

In all honesty, I think you should pump up the rumble upon Fsmash connection.

It just doesn't feel like a power move. It's a weird, slow animation, and there's almost no rumble. =(


Seriously a masterpiece though. How the hell did you figure out how to implement and make him perform some of this stuff?

Heck, I would almost like to see the final smash usmash and fsmash replace the current ones. The current ones seem a bit... weird. They just don't FEEL like power moves. Maybe it's just me, though. I could just be mesmerized on how amazing you made that Final Smash, haha.

 

[Rykoshet]

ill just wait for the updated version, character's conceptualization is nice but all basic rules for movement and spacing go out the window with this character. He's unique, but too unique in very very very basic ways that shove you out of thinking like a smash player. The nair for instance is way too laggy for how little it's actually capable of, as is the up tilt, as is the neutral B. Being hit out of side B should restore the thing too, it's ridiculous how little you can do out of an aerial side B before someone can just slam you for it because it has no hitbox and very very low IASA frames and then not give it back. All it takes to really gimp the hell out of zero is to just attack him once out of any of his 3 non hitting recovery moves, any good gimping move will hit him too far to come back and you risk absolutely nothing in jumping out after him knowing full well he has to choose between defending himself with some move and continue falling or try to recover through you. Quick draw doesnt even suffer that badly out of being smacked out of. On a whole increasing IASA and having a little priority to speak of would do this character a world of good. Hitting someone successfully with his neutral shot and having them come up to me and smack me anyway is pretty ugh. A lot of his moves suffer from "even if I hit you youre gonna punish me" syndrome.

Here's hoping.

 

[Eldiran]

Thanks for the com(pli)ments guys!

Edit:

OK here is the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5akBHwDeMk

have fun

Sweet vid! Totally moving this to the first post (when I get to it).

The second thing that stood out was the Boomerang Shield/Dash Switch ability. Could you do that with a whole moveset? Maybe combine the two Geno projects into one character?

It's entirely possible, excluding attributes. You may also hit snags running out of subactions for the different animations.

@Salem: Lots of good suggestions. Many of these I'd avoid because of how powerful they could make him (like an aerial Fsmash, a rolling slash, or a killing projectile). On the other hand, there's a good number of them I'm already considering or are already in (like improving Fsmash/Ftilt, and the boomerang slash multi-hit).

Bullet Destroy: If he slashes any bullet (projectile) with his sword it becomes destroyed, some characters projectiles go through others moves like Falco, this would be useful cause now he could fend off projectile campers. >
I forgot the real name of this abillity though. >_>

I don't know how to do that But that's what his Boomerang Shield is for. He can actually walk forward while blocking Falco's lasers.

Give him his downward nuetral A: Use Link's second F-smash animation or the Beam Sword F-smash animation.

I'm not actually sure what you mean by this.

I think I saw a glitch when Zero got U-tilted by Ganon. O_o
Fix?

I think the cause is that windboxes negate all effects of "Character Momentum", which is what the dash is. I'm looking into it.

Make it possible to change directions with Z-air to recover easier, possibly like a B-reversal?

I really wish I could, but it isn't do-able. However, once Side B or Up B is used, pressing them again will turn you around, so you can use that for recovering.

Sigma would be an excellent addition.

Ganondorf as the base, give him a permanent Beam Sword, and a variety of his moves from the X series (or reasonable facsimiles thereof) using the other characters' animations.

Hmmm... an intriguing idea.

In all honesty, I think you should pump up the rumble upon Fsmash connection. It just doesn't feel like a power move. It's a weird, slow animation, and there's almost no rumble. =(

Done! To be honest I never use rumble, so I miss these kinds of things. I only tested Zero's rumble once, basically.

ill just wait for the updated version, character's conceptualization is nice but all basic rules for movement and spacing go out the window with this character. He's unique, but too unique in very very very basic ways that shove you out of thinking like a smash player. The nair for instance is way too laggy for how little it's actually capable of, as is the up tilt, as is the neutral B. Being hit out of side B should restore the thing too, it's ridiculous how little you can do out of an aerial side B before someone can just slam you for it because it has no hitbox and high IASA and then not give it back. All it takes to really gimp the hell out of zero is to just attack him once out of any of his 3 non hitting recovery moves, he goes out too any good gimping move will hit him too far to come back and you risk absolutely nothing in jumping out after him knowing full well he has to choose between defending himself with some move and continue falling or try to recover through you. Quick draw doesnt even suffer that badly out of being smacked out of. On a whole increasing IASA and having a little priority to speak of would do this character a world of good. Hitting someone successfully with his neutral shot and having them come up to me and smack me anyway is pretty ugh.

I think you're mistaken on your assessment on a lot of things here. For example, Nair is an incredibly potent move, if not Zero's best, aside from Side B. Also, his recovery is not nearly as bad as you think -- after being hit out of Side B, he still has Up B (comes back after getting hit), tether, and wallclimbing to rely on. Not to mention reaching a wall restores his double jump and Side B. His neutral B is also useful -- think of it as akin to Diddy's peanut. It's there to interrupt, not damage or knock away.

On the whole I agree that Zero's performance is poor, but not for any of the reasons you mentioned (except that some IASA would help).

 

[Salem]

Cool.

the Nuetral A is the A-A-A attack but it was a move where Zero would do another horizontal slash but lower at the torso if you held down on the last attack. >_>
I don't know if you have this or not, but if not I think you should add it just for more zero awesomeness. :X

 

[Seikishidan Soru]

I really don't see a problem with Nair with the proper ALR either. After an air dash you can use it so that the momentum puts at a safe distance even if blocked, ou you can go for shield pressure if you space it correctly and cross them up. Side B into dash attack is also great for punishing whiffs.

Why make him lighter by the way? I don't think he should be.

 

[Salem]

I really don't see a problem with Nair with the proper ALR either. After an air dash you can use it so that the momentum puts at a safe distance even if blocked, ou you can go for shield pressure if you space it correctly and cross them up. Side B into dash attack is also great for punishing whiffs.

Why make him lighter by the way? I don't think he should be.

It's so it balances out the buffs.
Cause Link's weight+buffs I can see him being slightly cheap with the air dash and all.

 

[Rykoshet]

I think you're mistaken on your assessment on a lot of things here. For example, Nair is an incredibly potent move

That only cancels on full hop and is otherwise very very very very very punishable if you just block the thing. The concept of shield pressuring with a move that has no viable follow up on short hop is a rather laughable concept.

aside from Side B

This move is honestly mostly hype, a move that makes you commit to a direction for a set amount of distance with no hitbox aside from 2 moves you can just spot dodge very easily is not as great as youre making it out to be. If I see zero side B toward me I can just side B in retaliation as Ike and win the exchange quite easily, and quick draw is ike's flat out worst move. This is ignoring the very simple just holding A and punching him out of it, or shooting him out of it, or generating any sort of hitbox whatsoever while retreating.

Also, his recovery is not nearly as bad as you think -- after being hit out of Side B, he still has Up B (comes back after getting hit), tether, and wallclimbing to rely on.

If I hit zero out of his side B with any move other than maybe a dair into a techable wall he's not coming back, period. Hold the ledge and you downright kill every option but up Bing into a wall, which is applicable on FD, yoshi's island... and wario ware/ps2 if youre playing plus. /

His neutral B is also useful -- think of it as akin to Diddy's peanut. It's there to interrupt, not damage or knock away.

The difference being that diddy's peanut has much better iasa for the animation it gives. He's not sitting there in place after successfully rattling off a shot.

Dont get me wrong, the nair is fine as an actual attack, all the hitbox properties are perfectly fine, but make the move capable of canceling on short hop or rather give it the same properties as ike's nair in that it doesnt actually autocancel but has high iasa. Side B maybe canceling earlier, maybe by pressing down or shielding, having it be jump cancelable and restoring on getting smacked out of it would raise the character quite a bit and still not be broken because it doesnt actually attack, meaning. Knowing that zero can only dodge/act/grab the ledge after traveling its set distance (meaning if you know he's going to side B or up B to the ledge all you really have to do is spike him. If this is intended because the character is meant for plus or something that's fine but plus has a system that stops autosnapping on the way up/across already set in place, let the moves autosnap in reg brawl and let plus's actual system handle it otherwise. We made ragna's up B autosnap on the way up and it only works if you sweet spot in plus, we didnt need to actually change anything about it) as of now makes the move kind of a quick way to lose a stock the second it gets read, and it's not hard to read a move that moves straight forward. People are told to walk more in brawl because you cant shield out of the first step of a dash, why would someone take that weakness and extend the window of opportunity for the opponent?

 

[Eldiran]

It's so it balances out the buffs.
Cause Link's weight+buffs I can see him being slightly cheap with the air dash and all.

Zero is actually slightly lighter than Mario (weight of 96 to be specific) but the fast fall makes him seem much heavier.

That only cancels on full hop and is otherwise very very very very very punishable if you just block the thing. The concept of shield pressuring with a move that has no viable follow up on short hop is a rather laughable concept.

If you're playing vBrawl/BBrawl I can understand where you're coming from, though I think you overestimate the lag and underestimate its capability. In B+, however, the momentum from Side B makes it exceptional, especially if you use the .pac further up on this page that halves the landing lag.

This move is honestly mostly hype, a move that makes you commit to a direction for a set amount of distance with no hitbox aside from 2 moves you can just spot dodge very easily is not as great as youre making it out to be. If I see zero side B toward me I can just side B in retaliation as Ike and win the exchange quite easily, and quick draw is ike's flat out worst move.

I hope you realize Zero can interrupt his Side B with any aerial attack, an airdodge, or a second jump. It's hardly a set distance.

If I hit zero out of his side B with any move other than maybe a dair into a techable wall he's not coming back, period. Hold the ledge and you downright kill every option but up Bing into a wall, which is applicable on FD, yoshi's island... and wario ware/ps2 if youre playing plus.

Unless I'm mistaken, you can actually hold towards an edgehogged ledge and Zero will slide down it wallclimb fashion.

The difference being that diddy's peanut has much better iasa for the animation it gives. He's not sitting there in place after successfully rattling off a shot.

Zero's B is worse than the peanut, but if you use it straight out of a short hop you can fire it laglessly, so it's far from useless.

Side B maybe canceling earlier, maybe by pressing down or shielding or something and restoring on getting smacked out of it would raise the character quite a bit and still not be broken because it doesnt actually attack. Knowing that zero can only dodge/act after traveling its set distance as of now makes the move kind of a quick way to lose a stock the second it gets read, and it's not hard to read a move that moves straight forward.

As I mentioned above, Side B is interruptable with almost anything you might do in the air. (On the ground it is interruptable by dash attack, grab, or jump.)

 

[Rykoshet]

I hope you realize Zero can interrupt his Side B with any aerial attack, an airdodge, or a second jump. It's hardly a set distance.

From what I'm seeing he can dodge or aerial, both making him commit to falling. Unless the second pac added the jump cancel. Speaking of which, despite reading the topic I check the OP for movesets. I see a fitmotion link but not a second pac link so I'm playing with the one that cant jump out of his side B unless it travels the full distance.

Edit: The plus version can only jump out after traveling the full distance also, ill check the third link...
Double edit: No version currently up for download lets zero jump out of his aerial side B without committing to the full distance. Grounded yeah, but on the ground he could use the ability to dodge/shield to boot. Just combine your options out of side B on the ground and in the air, again the move has no inherent hitbox so it's not like youre throwing out a move and then covering your *** afterward.

Unless I'm mistaken, you can actually hold towards an edgehogged ledge and Zero will slide down it wallclimb fashion.

I stand corrected on this, my mistake.

Also

Zero's B is worse than the peanut, but if you use it straight out of a short hop you can fire it laglessly, so it's far from useless.

Firing it on short hop ascent means the first shot barely hits donkey kong's head on the way up, if you do it on the way down expect quite a bit of lag instead of accepting that he only gets one shot on the way down and giving it properties like a short hopped laser and canceling the landing lag.

 

[Eldiran]

Edit: The plus version can only jump out after traveling the full distance also, ill check the third link...
Double edit: No version currently up for download lets zero jump out of his aerial side B without committing to the full distance. Grounded yeah, but on the ground he could use the ability to dodge/shield to boot. Just combine your options out of side B on the ground and in the air, again the move has no inherent hitbox so it's not like youre throwing out a move and then covering your *** afterward.

Ah, yeah, I forgot again that there was a glitch in the SideB that didn't allow double jumping out of it. I'll have that fixed next version.

This combined with his recoveries not restoring if he's smacked out of them makes for an easier time gimping him than link.

His Up B does restore though.

 

[Rykoshet]

Yeah my mistake, I should have said recovery*, terrible pluralization on my part.

Added a ninja edit on the last post though about the application of his neutral shot.

 

[Eldiran]

Yeah my mistake, I should have said recovery*, terrible pluralization on my part.

Added a ninja edit on the last post though about the application of his neutral shot.

Ah, okay. By the way, do you use B+ or v/BBrawl?

Firing it on short hop ascent means the first shot barely hits donkey kong's head on the way up, if you do it on the way down expect quite a bit of lag instead of accepting that he only gets one shot on the way down and giving it properties like a short hopped laser and canceling the landing lag.

True, but if I eliminated the lag he'd be able to go straight into firing a second time, giving him 4 shots in little time.

Either way, I never planned for his projectiles to be all that potent. Zero is a melee-focused character in concept, and someone with his SideB would be the ultimate camper if he was given great projectiles. So, it's good news to me if his B is not that useful. (I find it to be a useful tool though.)