Edge Trumping Mechanic Discussion (+follow ups)

[Pazzo.]

Remember, this is only a true follow up if you're able to hit them while they're still stunned by the ledge trump. Otherwise, they can easily double jump out and escape.

I'll pay close attention next time to see if the opponent is still stunned.

 

[Joe73191]

From what people are seeing who has more of an advantage in the new ledge game? The recovering player or the edge-guarding player?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

The recovering player is rewarded by the edge trumping mechanic, because ledgehog->ledgeroll etc. doesn't really work any more. The recovering player also profits from ledgedrops only being possible after your ledge intangibility is gone (it can also make his position worse but for more cases it is as described). The edgeguarding player profits from ledgemagnets being lowered, so sweetspots are harder and there will be more cases of onstage punishing.

 

[Gaggy Rogers]

So far, it seems to me that run-off turnaround ledge trump-> ledgehop bair/nair may be solid with pikachu. If the frame data backs that up, we might be able to start cutting into this recovery buff.

I've been repping this in other places for ages now.

Ledgehop > fast-fall bair is insanely effective at dragging people down, and you can easily recover.

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

This game mechanic isn't founded by anyone, as it's obvious to be seen. This replaces edgehogging by pushing the opponent back, whereas edgehogging would simply not allow the opponent to grab the edge at all. Edge stealing also gives the opponent lag during their 'pushed back' animation (they can't input anything out of it for a period of time).

Edgestealing is done by perfectly timing grabbing the edge (whether you be off stage or on stage) as soon as your opponent grabs the ledge. This, once again, pushes the opponent back into a 'pushed back' lag.

Here is where it gets just a little tricky. As soon as you edgesteal (refer to above), you can attack your opponent by during their pushed back lag (yep, that's what I'll continue calling it since I can't think of calling it anything else). But the attack must have hitboxes which can actually hit your opponent, such as a few back aerials or specials. Out of this, you can actually KILL or even follow up with a multiple hit combo (this is quite possible, but gaining edge steals are quite tricky as you need timing).

Here is an example at 0:59 - 1:11 stolen from Ganon boards (they seem to be the only board taking competitiveness very seriously, no really go and read their posts and compare it to the other boards). Basically Gungnir (the Ganon player) times his edge steal and follows up with a back aerial! Can this be done with a few suicide moves as well? Koopas claw? Ganoncide? Maybe, who knows. Needs testing.

Another brilliant example from the same video at 3:40 - 3:51. Ganon gets a TRUE combo kill at 77%! The strong the attacks possible after an edge steal the better the move can be, but, as I said above, you CAN get other moves out of it just maybe for some quick damage, or maybe a double suicide, or maybe multiple hits leading to confusion.

 

[Virgman]

There's another thread talking about this, as well, but I don't remember seeing the videos on that one. Thanks for those. Does the timing of the edge grab need to be as precise as Ganon was doing it? It was so precise, I couldn't actually see who was grabbing the edge first. It looked like they grabbed it at the same time, but obviously Palutena grabbed it first because she popped off the edge after Ganon grabbed it.

EDIT: Whoa. My post switched threads. Now it's not really applicable.

 

[Shaya]

New mechanic aye? How about taking 5 seconds to look first...

 

[Jaxas]

Just as a heads up, Pikachu could act faster off of the ledge than most characters in Brawl as well, if I remember correctly. I believe that most characters had different ledge times, though it was mostly standardized to only like a frame or two of difference.

 

[Ziem'sPit]

So what I'm getting is, this mechanic can be easy kills if pulled off correctly but can be easily avoided/predicted/countered at the same time. It doesn't seem to be the most optimal edge guarding tool if you think about it... Characters that can pull it off have an advantage over others, Characters that can avoid/counter it have an advantage over it and characters that get gimped easier than others have a disadvantage to it. Hmm...

 

[dskank]

im sure this has been asked before, but when someone steals the ledge from you do you fall off at a fixed trajectory?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ganondorf concurs.

 

[dskank]

did more testing, it seems like when you grab the ledge and gain invuln you can't drop ledge immediately preventing guaranteed follow ups because the player who was kicked off can move first. but if you grab ledge without gaining involn then you can ledge drop immediately..

oh and characters can travel different trajectories when ledge stolen, either outward or upward.

 

[A2ZOMG]

did more testing, it seems like when you grab the ledge and gain invuln you can't drop ledge immediately preventing guaranteed follow ups because the player who was kicked off can move first. but if you grab ledge without gaining involn then you can ledge drop immediately..

oh and characters can travel different trajectories when ledge stolen, either outward or upward.

It's all timing. If you grab the edge IMMEDIATELY after they grab it, you can have a really ******** frame advantage. I'm assuming a perfect ledge steal gives you like a 30 frame advantage or something insane where your opponent can do absolutely nothing but get hit.

Notice the examples I posted of Gungnir's Ganondorf where he times his ledgegrab in such a way that he's able to drop from the ledge almost immediately after his opponent gets booted off.

Which way they fly off the edge depends on character physics, but individually they all get knocked off the same way consistently. Your followups only depend on how well you time the edge steal.

 

[Tagxy]

This is awesome, Ive been wanting to test this for a long time but dont have a way to.

@ A2ZOMG are you 100% sure when theyre caught on the ledge, they they cant buffer or in any other way input another way off the ledge, and will always end up in the "ledge stolen" animation once their frames stuck on the ledge run out? Could you possibly test the various ways one would be able to get off the ledge from that position if not? (i.e. buffering different ledge off options, not buffering but as quick as possible, etc.)

Also, can you really drop from the ledge instantly if you dont have invincibility?

 

[A2ZOMG]

This is awesome, Ive been wanting to test this for a long time but dont have a way to.

@ A2ZOMG are you 100% sure when theyre caught on the ledge, they they cant buffer or in any other way input another way off the ledge, and will always end up in the "ledge stolen" animation once their frames stuck on the ledge run out? Could you possibly test the various ways one would be able to get off the ledge from that position if not? (i.e. buffering different ledge off options, not buffering but as quick as possible, etc.)

Also, can you really drop from the ledge instantly if you dont have invincibility?

I don't have the game, but my observation is if you steal the edge during the mandatory edge stick frames, the person who first grabbed the edge will be 100% forcibly ejected after their stick time runs out.

I mean, that just seems obvious from watching this Ganon abusing the mechanic.

The counterplay to this is not sweetspotting the edge and either grabbing the edge late, or landing on stage.

 

[Tagxy]

I don't have the game, but my observation is if you steal the edge during the mandatory edge stick frames, the person who first grabbed the edge will be 100% forcibly ejected after their stick time runs out.

I mean, that just seems obvious from watching this Ganon abusing the mechanic.

The counterplay to this is not sweetspotting the edge and either grabbing the edge late, or landing on stage.

Right, but I think we should be certain. I feel like buffering an input would be the one thing that should be tested for since I think its something that isnt so intuitive and maybe a bit difficult on the 3ds. Not to say it hasnt happened but I just want to be certain and avoid another 'vectoring' debacle.

 

[HdTyvek]

i was curious about the new ledges. my biggest thing i wanted to try was punishing after stealing the ledge, like bair or something after you steal the ledge from your opponent

 

[RPK]

Now Im curious...With the characters that have the ability to wall jump, do you have enough time to wall jump fair?

 

[Cazcom]

Now Im curious...With the characters that have the ability to wall jump, do you have enough time to wall jump fair?

I've only got the demo, but I wasn't able to ledgetrump -> scarjump -> fair with Mario. I could pull it off with PIkachu though, so it'll come down to how quick the fair is. Fingers crossed that Captain Falcon can pull it off. Ledgetrump -> scarjump -> knee just sounds too hype.

 

[Chauzu]

It's all timing. If you grab the edge IMMEDIATELY after they grab it, you can have a really ******** frame advantage. I'm assuming a perfect ledge steal gives you like a 30 frame advantage or something insane where your opponent can do absolutely nothing but get hit.

Notice the examples I posted of Gungnir's Ganondorf where he times his ledgegrab in such a way that he's able to drop from the ledge almost immediately after his opponent gets booted off.

Which way they fly off the edge depends on character physics, but individually they all get knocked off the same way consistently. Your followups only depend on how well you time the edge steal.

I agree with this assessment. I've made more testing with both Zelda and Samus and the results are really promising imo:

The big question is if these are escapeable? It's hard for me to test myself on a lone 3DS but it looks intruiging imo, and as the Ganondorf vid showed it can be used in a real match.

 

[Scala]

It looks like the training mode CPU always pops off at the same angle, whereas from what I know you can influence which angle you get popped off by holding the joystick in various directions. It's possible a more upward angle could prevent guaranteed followups like this.

Also someone once said that if you grab the ledge you can immediately buffer a roll, so that's something to consider also

 

[Chauzu]

It looks like the training mode CPU always pops off at the same angle, whereas from what I know you can influence which angle you get popped off by holding the joystick in various directions. It's possible a more upward angle could prevent guaranteed followups like this.

Also someone once said that if you grab the ledge you can immediately buffer a roll, so that's something to consider also

Interesting! It's stuff like that I'm talking about that is impossible to test for me.

Would be a shame if that was the case since I think it would be an awesome addition to the edgeguarding meta.

Edit: I've also tried to buffer a roll for 5 mins now without it working, either I'm doing it wrong, or it has insane timing, or it isn't possible.

 

[B0NK]

So has anyone in here thought that Palutena's animation is more susceptible to ledge trumping > back air? Maybe it's a character specific thing?

I can't really say until I have the game in my hands at the end of this week, but could someone find a good example of it against another character in match?

 

[<π]

It seems to me like when you trump someone they can act before you can. You shouldn't be able to follow up at all.

 

[WastingPenguins]

I want to point out that ledge trumps don't have to be as telegraphed as some of the demonstrations have shown. You don't have to backroll to the ledge and then wait there to perform a runoff ledge grab -- you can do it from a dash. It's just that the 3ds controls make it a bit more difficult because the circle pad is so mushy. Brawl had the exact same mechanic and it is super easy on a Gamecube controller. So regardless of whether or not a recovering opponent can theoretically react to a trump, it will still make for a good mixup. If they expect the trump and avoid sweetspotting, then you can potentially punish -- fake the trump and simply run off the ledge instead, then hop back and punish with a bair or turnaround ftilt (depending on the recovery obviously). If they don't expect the trump and DO sweetspot, you might be able to land a followup if they don't play perfectly.

 

[Chauzu]

I want to point out that ledge trumps don't have to be as telegraphed as some of the demonstrations have shown. You don't have to backroll to the ledge and then wait there to perform a runoff ledge grab -- you can do it from a dash. It's just that the 3ds controls make it a bit more difficult because the circle pad is so mushy. Brawl had the exact same mechanic and it is super easy on a Gamecube controller. So regardless of whether or not a recovering opponent can theoretically react to a trump, it will still make for a good mixup. If they expect the trump and avoid sweetspotting, then you can potentially punish -- fake the trump and simply run off the ledge instead, then hop back and punish with a bair or turnaround ftilt (depending on the recovery obviously). If they don't expect the trump and DO sweetspot, you might be able to land a followup if they don't play perfectly.

Yeah it is as you say. It's possible to do out of a dash, just very hard with 3ds controls. It is possible to dash, stop and then fall quickly as I do after a roll in my vid even on 3ds.

And yeah no matter if these turn out to not be guaranteed they will always be useful in some situations. It's like ppl messing up with DI before, same here.

btw, I'm going to do some testing on what you can do when you get ledgegrabbed now, I'll report if I find something interesting.

Edit: I misunderstood what @ Scala meant about roll buffering and this is defo a thing. You won't be knocked of the edge if you press the roll button and the window of opportunity is generous. That's quite the shame imo.

I wasn't able to change the direction I was put into after a ledge hog though so that's something I guess.

 

[WastingPenguins]

Yeah it is as you say. It's possible to do out of a dash, just very hard with 3ds controls. It is possible to dash, stop and then fall quickly as I do after a roll in my vid even on 3ds.

I might be misunderstanding you, but you don't even have to stop after the dash. You just run off the ledge, then roll the control stick down and back toward the ledge and you'll insta-grab. Took some time to do this reliably on the demo because the controls suck. Also, it sucks that you can buffer a roll immediately upon grabbing, since that seems super safe. Although, rolls from the ledge are still reasonably punishable, so we'll have to see.

 

[Fenrir VII]

So based on those Ganon vids, I have a theory.

So we can't act off a ledge before the invincibility frames are gone, right?
Well, I think this applies to the trumper AND trumpee, meaning, when you trump somebody that has invincibility frames, it runs out those frames before they bounce off the ledge... thus they hang on the ledge for a sec before bouncing off, right around the time that you lose your invincibility frames... thus you can act first and punish.

Go back and watch the Ganon vids again... he trumps the palutena IMMEDIATELY after she gets on the ledge, so it appears he gets a huge frame advantage (because their invincibility frames run out around the same time and she still has to go through the "I've been trumped!" animation).

Also this particular observation is not limited to Palutena. I have noticed in the demo that the CPU sometimes bounces off later than other times. I really think this is the reason for it.

Thoughts?

 

[SonicZeroX]

So based on those Ganon vids, I have a theory.

So we can't act off a ledge before the invincibility frames are gone, right?

Not from what I'm testing. Grabbing the edge with Link gives him around 3 seconds of invincibility (yeah that much, it's lower at high %s though), but after about 1 second I can drop off the ledge which also immediately removes all invincibility.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Not from what I'm testing. Grabbing the edge with Link gives him around 3 seconds of invincibility (yeah that much, it's lower at high %s though), but after about 1 second I can drop off the ledge which also immediately removes all invincibility.

Well, maybe I misspoke. What I am saying is that after grabbing the ledge for the first time, there is a definite period of time that you can't act. Sub that sentiment in for every time I say "invincibility" in my other post.

 

[<π]

Well, maybe I misspoke. What I am saying is that after grabbing the ledge for the first time, there is a definite period of time that you can't act. Sub that sentiment in for every time I say "invincibility" in my other post.

Yep. Like with brawl there is a period where you can't do anything once your grab the ledge. I'm guessing there are character dependent differences on how many frames you are stuck there.
I do believe that you opponent can act before you can if you trump them for the most part. I can't test it in the demo but I can jump out of the trump jump arc before I reach the peak of the jump.

 

[Z1GMA]

Trumping doesn't work.
My friend found a way that ignores it.

 

[Shaya]

Making posts which don't provide any information are kinda spammy... "Baiting" responses when you could just provide the relevant information would help everyone...

There's a very small window between someone grabbing the ledge which they cannot be trumped, like very very small. Unless you mean something else - just say it.

 

[Z1GMA]

Ppl will find this soon anyway, so it doesn't really matter.
Also, my apologies.