Edge Trumping Mechanic Discussion (+follow ups)

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

You can input a getup attack, roll, etc., the moment you grab the ledge and they can occupy the ledge while your animation plays.

New theory:

Can you, say;

Grab the ledge after your opponent
If they input a roll or getup, they do so
You double jump back towards onstage while they are getting up or rolling on and hit them with an aerial

Possible?

 

[Overswarm]

New theory:

Can you, say;

Grab the ledge after your opponent
If they input a roll or getup, they do so
You double jump back towards onstage while they are getting up or rolling on and hit them with an aerial

Possible?

dunno, none of the demo characters have a fair that'd really be applicable.

 

[Shaya]

Have people tried footstooling out of these ledge trumps?

It would probably be great if we had gifs of the various ledge trumping scenarios.

 

[SamSun]

Villager can probably get a fair.

 

[Overswarm]

Have people tried footstooling out of these ledge trumps?

It would probably be great if we had gifs of the various ledge trumping scenarios.

The trumped person gets to act before you do. Any direct attack on them can be countered with an air dodge -- while the air dodge might not be the correct response, it just shows there is an opening.

 

[NobleClamtasm]

The trumped person gets to act before you do. Any direct attack on them can be countered with an air dodge -- while the air dodge might not be the correct response, it just shows there is an opening.

So, we know that we are unable to drop from the ledge during invincibility frames. However, if you perform a ledge regrab in Smash 4 you can avoid the invincibility frames. This means that you can potentially act out of a ledge grab quicker, so this way, perhaps the person doing the trumping can act faster than the person getting trumped. Have you tested this?

 

[Gaggy Rogers]

So, we know that we are unable to drop from the ledge during invincibility frames. However, if you perform a ledge regrab in Smash 4 you can avoid the invincibility frames. This means that you can potentially act out of a ledge grab quicker, so this way, perhaps the person doing the trumping can act faster than the person getting trumped. Have you tested this?

If so, then the instant ledge grab would have even more utility. Knock 'em off the stage, run off and instantly grab the ledge to lose the invincibility, jump off before they can get to it and trump 'em. It's tough to test this with CPUs alone, but going by my experience, I think Pikachu could get a guaranteed vex with his b-air if he wasn't locked down by invincibility.

Man, if keeping/discarding your ledge invincibility is really a legitimate trade-off, then I like these ledge mechanics way more than I like the ones in any other SSB.

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

Saw someone on the Clashtournaments stream (Nakat) use PK Fire vs Robin's upB, couldn't recover because he couldn't actually get OFF of the ledge due to no invulnerability on a regrab. Could he have just input a getup/roll when he snapped to the ledge (ala Overswarm's analyzation), no clue. But this proves that there is ledge counterplay in this game, make no mistake.

TL;DR of this entire quest of mine; YOU CAN EDGEGUARD. It's just not as effective as Melee, but somewhat of a "spin" on Brawl's. Things you can do:

• Grab the ledge after your opponent does (when they sweetspot for example) and either force them off the ledge (which eliminates their invulnerability frames) or forces them to buffer a roll/getup from the ledge, then attempt to punish them
• Use a projectile to "check" the ledge, if they get hit they lose their invulnerability frames, making you able to continuously hit them off the ledge unless they buffer a getup/roll, which you can punish

Either way, this is immediately better than just letting them grab the ledge and get back on for free, it's almost exactly like what you do to punish tethers in Project M

We'll see how things go from here, but -----repost this------ and practice/test it. If we have this down before Smash WiiU comes out, I bet we'll know exactly how to effectively stop autosweetspotting from being a nuisance and start thinking of it as a hindrance.

 

[Life]

I think just trump ____ is a good name for "vexing" e.g. trump bair, trump dair

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

We can just call it edgeguarding.

Try to get that post that I just made out to people.

 

[Gaggy Rogers]

We can just call it edgeguarding.

Try to get that post that I just made out to people.

Meh, it's a specific kind of edgeguard. I agree that "trump ______" is perfectly suitable.

 

[NobleClamtasm]

If so, then the instant ledge grab would have even more utility. Knock 'em off the stage, run off and instantly grab the ledge to lose the invincibility, jump off before they can get to it and trump 'em. It's tough to test this with CPUs alone, but going by my experience, I think Pikachu could get a guaranteed vex with his b-air if he wasn't locked down by invincibility.

Man, if keeping/discarding your ledge invincibility is really a legitimate trade-off, then I like these ledge mechanics way more than I like the ones in any other SSB.

Don't forget that ledge trumping can still be completely avoided if the recovering player does an edge attack/jump/roll immediately after grabbing the ledge regardless of the ledge invincibility.

Here's the thing: as the meta develops, going for a ledge regrab while your opponent is recovering would makes it blatantly obvious that you're going for a ledge trump. This forces the recovering player to buffer a ledge attack/jump/roll to avoid the trump. Consider the current scenario: the edguarding player is on the ledge with no ledge invincibility frames thanks to the ledge regrab, and the recovering player is currently under a getup animation via ledge attack/jump/roll. Since the edgeguarding player has no ledge invincibility, I'm thinking that the player on the ledge will be able to drop down and double jump back to the stage quick enough to punish the recovering player.

But of course this is all speculation, since I don't have the demo. God I wish I had the demo.

 

[Michaelrexx]

Does anybody what edge trumping was like when sakurai first posted it on the site? I think it wouldve been better that way

 

[VKatana]

Does anybody know where I could maybe find a comprehensive list w/ descriptions of all the mechanics for competitive play for Sm4sh? Or maybe just a guide to competitive play.

 

[lcampoy8]

Heres a video showing exactly what is being discussed:

skip to 2:20 and again at 3:10.

 

[NobleClamtasm]

Heres a video showing exactly what is being discussed:

skip to 2:20 and again at 3:10.

Looking closely at the video, it looks like Palutena could have easily jumped away before getting hit. Thanks for sharing though. Like I said before, there is a way to act out of the trump sooner to guarantee a follow up (by ledge regrabbing to avoid invincibility frames). It's up to the players to take advantage of it, and I wish more people tested it

 

[EdreesesPieces]

(This post assumes ledge invulnerability is also lost when a ledge is stolen from you, which I believe is true)

I'm honestly REALLY surprised NO ONE has done this yet nor thought about it, but this needs to be done as soon as possible for you guys who have the demo or full builds.

1. Have someone grab the ledge.
2. Grab it right after they do.
3. Once they're knocked off, they don't have invulnerability anymore. Get back onstage (jump on or just rise, rising with forward on analog might be safer).
4. Let them do whatever they want to get back onstage.
5. If they grab the ledge, just down tilt/smash (or use something that hits low enough to hit them off the ledge). They'll still be in recovery, but without invulnerability.
6. If they go over the ledge with an upB, punish accordingly.

The point of all this, tl;dr?

If they don't have their invulnerability after grabbing the ledge, they have little to no options to recover because their ledgegrab still has lag, but no invulnerability. If they rise above the ledge with upB, that's easily punishable. Autosweetspotting and sweetspotting become BAD things.

Test this.

Great post. I've been using this against the Lvl 9 cpu's and it works soooo well. Auto kill. But, human opponents might be quite different.

I'm excited to start seeing/doing 2 vs 1 teams combos where your teammate ledge trumps the opponent into your spike. It would be so easy to do too.

 

[NondairyDanzig]

Saw someone on the Clashtournaments stream (Nakat) use PK Fire vs Robin's upB, couldn't recover because he couldn't actually get OFF of the ledge due to no invulnerability on a regrab. Could he have just input a getup/roll when he snapped to the ledge (ala Overswarm's analyzation), no clue. But this proves that there is ledge counterplay in this game, make no mistake.

TL;DR of this entire quest of mine; YOU CAN EDGEGUARD. It's just not as effective as Melee, but somewhat of a "spin" on Brawl's. Things you can do:

• Grab the ledge after your opponent does (when they sweetspot for example) and either force them off the ledge (which eliminates their invulnerability frames) or forces them to buffer a roll/getup from the ledge, then attempt to punish them
• Use a projectile to "check" the ledge, if they get hit they lose their invulnerability frames, making you able to continuously hit them off the ledge unless they buffer a getup/roll, which you can punish

Either way, this is immediately better than just letting them grab the ledge and get back on for free, it's almost exactly like what you do to punish tethers in Project M

We'll see how things go from here, but -----repost this------ and practice/test it. If we have this down before Smash WiiU comes out, I bet we'll know exactly how to effectively stop autosweetspotting from being a nuisance and start thinking of it as a hindrance.

I'm not convinced. Trying to time your ledge re-grab immediately after theirs is insanely hard, especially since you have to be in the air yourself and they can just choose to up B sooner/later to mess up your trump. This looks pretty useless to me.

 

[NobleClamtasm]

I'm not convinced. Trying to time your ledge re-grab immediately after theirs is insanely hard, especially since you have to be in the air yourself and they can just choose to up B sooner/later to mess up your trump. This looks pretty useless to me.

I think you just need good knowledge of the options that your opponent has while recovering, which will help to predict and react accordingly. Certain recoveries like Captain Falcon, Bowser and Marth have are very predictable, and have very small windows in which they are able to snap the ledge. Other characters with better recovery options would naturally be harder to trump by using mixups to throw the edgeguarder off.

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

Here's the thing, guys: It does not matter if they can input a roll or getup (this may be punishable, needs further testing). It does not matter if you can't knock them back off the stage.

The point of this is that it's better than just staring at them.

You at least limit what they can do to get back on and force them to do it the way you want to, so that you have a better chance of hitting them again.

Otherwise we'll just be jumping offstage trying to hit them with aerials and get reverse gimped for doing it if they make it past you.

 

[NondairyDanzig]

I think you just need good knowledge of the options that your opponent has while recovering, which will help to predict and react accordingly. Certain recoveries like Captain Falcon, Bowser and Marth have are very predictable, and have very small windows in which they are able to snap the ledge. Other characters with better recovery options would naturally be harder to trump by using mixups to throw the edgeguarder off.

I'm still pretty sure even those recoveries would be too hard to reliably trump. Have you tried it yourself? To be able to regrab ledge JUST after them, then ledgedrop, DJ and aerial to punish a roll would take perfect timing which any recovering character at all could throw off.

Here's the thing, guys: It does not matter if they can input a roll or getup (this may be punishable, needs further testing). It does not matter if you can't knock them back off the stage.

The point of this is that it's better than just staring at them.

You at least limit what they can do to get back on and force them to do it the way you want to, so that you have a better chance of hitting them again.

Otherwise we'll just be jumping offstage trying to hit them with aerials and get reverse gimped for doing it if they make it past you.

No-one is implying you should just stare at them. I really don't believe this is better than following them offstage with an aerial. I have had some success gimping offstage with Link's nairs, and Pikachu / Villager are both very good at chasing offstage for gimps. There's no worry about missing the gimp and being edgehogged, since there's always a safe ledge for you to either grab or trump.

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

You lose advantage by going offstage vs chars with good recoveries. Why would you risk losing stage advantage or reverse gimps by going out there instead of tricking them at the ledge to set up an opportunity to get them off again?

I keep saying this, but just think of Project M tethers.

 

[NondairyDanzig]

You lose advantage by going offstage vs chars with good recoveries. Why would you risk losing stage advantage or reverse gimps by going out there instead of tricking them at the ledge to set up an opportunity to get them off again?

I keep saying this, but just think of Project M tethers.

You risk losing stage advantage for an earlier kill. You could stay safe on stage, but with big blastboxes it takes until high % for most characters to KO someone like that. If you're against chars with good recoveries, what would be the benefit of this just to get them offstage again? Surely it's not worth this monumental effort just for a few %, to then repeat.

It's also nothing like PM tethers. You don't have to time a ledge regrab with insane precision there, you just hang on the ledge. Have you actually tried this trumping punish yourself?

 

[NobleClamtasm]

I'm still pretty sure even those recoveries would be too hard to reliably trump. Have you tried it yourself? To be able to regrab ledge JUST after them, then ledgedrop, DJ and aerial to punish a roll would take perfect timing which any recovering character at all could throw off.

For characters with quick recoveries(ex: Pikachu, Lucario, Palutena's teleport, tether characters), this would be pretty easy I would think, as they simply would need to autosnap the ledge in response to the opponent grabbing it. No precise timing necessary.
And no, I haven't tried it. Everything I'm saying is 100% theorycrafting. If I had the demo I would though lol. Have you tried it?

 

[NondairyDanzig]

For characters with quick recoveries(ex: Pikachu, Lucario, Palutena's teleport, tether characters), this would be pretty easy I would think, as they simply would need to autosnap the ledge in response to the opponent grabbing it. No precise timing necessary.
And no, I haven't tried it. Everything I'm saying is 100% theorycrafting. If I had the demo I would though lol. Have you tried it?

Yes I have tried it for quite a bit, with another person in the demo. You don't just instantly snap back to the ledge like you're suggesting there, it's a bit slower and makes it really hard to do the whole thing fast enough to punish a ledge roll. Don't get me wrong I think theorycrafting is great, I'm just saying that I don't think this is very reliable at all. You should try it out when you get the demo and you'll see what I mean.

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

I tried it for a small amount of time. I didn't see the "buffering" thing Overswarm showed me, but regardless it doesn't -matter- how reliable it is, it -works- and it's -something-. We just saw Sethlon do it, and even if Palutena could've rolled on or done a getup from the ledge, she still would've been either punished or at a disadvantage.

The part I'm not getting is why it took even one person this long to figure out that this is a thing imo.

 

[NondairyDanzig]

But it does matter how reliable it is. It basically requires the other player to completely ignore what you're doing, which doesn't happen in comp play.

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

But it does matter how reliable it is. It basically requires the other player to completely ignore what you're doing, which doesn't happen in comp play.

How? If you're going to sweetspot the ledge there's no avoiding touching the ledge. The guy on top can just wait for you to be in position to do it, jump over it and fastfall on when you sweetspot.

Now this isn't saying the recoverer can't mix things up and etc, but that's the part where player knowledge and reactions come into play. Edgeguarding was never free in Melee either, but at the start when people were figuring things out, it was said that you'd never get back on ever. Now people mix things up and get creative and find ways back on.

Metagame'll change.

 

[NobleClamtasm]

Yes I have tried it for quite a bit, with another person in the demo. You don't just instantly snap back to the ledge like you're suggesting there, it's a bit slower and makes it really hard to do the whole thing fast enough to punish a ledge roll. Don't get me wrong I think theorycrafting is great, I'm just saying that I don't think this is very reliable at all. You should try it out when you get the demo and you'll see what I mean.

Thanks a lot for the input. If it's impossible to punish a ledge roll when on the ledge, then so be it (I won't give up hope until I try for myself though ). However, going for the immediate ledge roll can be awfully predictable and can be punished accordingly if you forgo the regrab/trump by just jumping back on stage to anticipate their roll.

 

[NondairyDanzig]

How? If you're going to sweetspot the ledge there's no avoiding touching the ledge. The guy on top can just wait for you to be in position to do it, jump over it and fastfall on when you sweetspot.

Now this isn't saying the recoverer can't mix things up and etc, but that's the part where player knowledge and reactions come into play. Edgeguarding was never free in Melee either, but at the start when people were figuring things out, it was said that you'd never get back on ever. Now people mix things up and get creative and find ways back on.

Metagame'll change.

If you just wait up top for someone to sweetspot then jump over it and fastfall on like you suggest, you're not getting anything from it. Not only will you have invincibility frames when you grab the ledge making it impossible to drop off the ledge and punish a roll, but they would clearly see you going for the ledge so could just press roll to instantly escape the situation, and leave you on the ledge. For this to work you would have to be in the air above the ledge having just let go of it, but timing an instant ledge trump from that position is incredibly hard when you take into account the other player using their recovery slightly earlier or later. It's definitely not possible to react to that with a lot of recoveries.

I appreciate you're trying to encourage new and creative ways to edgeguard which I am all for, but I don't understand why you're defending this without any real testing, and throwing out unrelated comparisons to melee and project m.

 

[TimeSmash]

HOLY CRAP could you imagine if wavedashing was still a thing? That way you could quickly trump whoever.

Regardless, this is a great find. It'll be interesting to see how this progresses

 

[NondairyDanzig]

Thanks a lot for the input. If it's impossible to punish a ledge roll when on the ledge, then so be it (I won't give up hope until I try for myself though ). However, going for the immediate ledge roll can be awfully predictable and can be punished accordingly if you forgo the regrab/trump by just jumping back on stage to anticipate their roll.

Good luck, we need more actual testing in smash 4. That's a good point, I think waiting offstage before a regrab could be a decent threat at least to force them to roll, so you can then punish without ever having grabbed the ledge. If they don't roll, then you can try the trump edgeguard suggested earlier since if they regrab they won't have invincibility.

HOLY CRAP could you imagine if wavedashing was still a thing? That way you could quickly trump whoever.

Regardless, this is a great find. It'll be interesting to see how this progresses

I had thought about that, but remember you can't let go of the ledge as long as you have invincibility. Wavedashing to the ledge to trump would leave you stuck there unable to punish.

 

[Chauzu]

I tried finding ways of using edge trumping for Zelda and this is one vs. Fox:

This part of the metagame will be interesting.

 

[NondairyDanzig]

I tried finding ways of using edge trumping for Zelda and this is one vs. Fox:

This part of the metagame will be interesting.

But after you trumped him he was lifted up, given his double jump back and you were stuck on ledge until your invincibility ran out. He could have double jumped, use either side or up B to recover on the stage, airdodged through your aerial or even just put out a hitbox of his own. I really don't think this will be part of the metagame.

 

[Chauzu]

But after you trumped him he was lifted up, given his double jump back and you were stuck on ledge until your invincibility ran out. He could have double jumped, use either side or up B to recover on the stage, airdodged through your aerial or even just put out a hitbox of his own. I really don't think this will be part of the metagame.

Yeah this was against CPU, but all other CPU's I tried it on jumped right away when possible so I was thinking Fox maybe wasn't able to jump at that time? I don't use Fox so.

Not saying this was a viable example, just my attempt at recreating it, if it's not going to work then whatever. So apologies for wasting a few seconds of your life then.

 

[NondairyDanzig]

Yeah this was against CPU, but all other CPU's I tried it on jumped right away when possible so I was thinking Fox maybe wasn't able to jump at that time? I don't use Fox so.

Not saying this was a viable example, just my attempt at recreating it, if it's not going to work then whatever. So apologies for wasting a few seconds of your life then.

No don't get me wrong I appreciate you testing and making the video. I'm just trying to point out why I don't think this is particularly viable, unless someone can prove otherwise.

 

[Chauzu]

No don't get me wrong I appreciate you testing and making the video. I'm just trying to point out why I don't think this is particularly viable, unless someone can prove otherwise.

Haha yeah I'm sorry too, I guess it's a typical self defence mechanism when you are afraid a lot of people are going to try and make fun of me for being stupid.

Basically yeah if this is a thing, great, if not, meh, move on.

 

[Thinkaman]

I might be crazy, but based on gameplay feel and videos, when you steal the ledge it doesn't seem like you are stuck on the edge as long before you can drop off. (As usual) Just watch the video carefully, it doesn't seem like the usual duration.

 

[Gardex]

Here's my take on it(mostly speculation):

You most likely cannot hit your opponent after ledgetrumping them if they jump and/or use a very quick attack because of the long invincibility you have to sit through. It can, however, put them in an unfavorable position with the correct follow-up option.

But, as somebody else mentioned aswell: If you grab the ledge once before the trump itself, you wont have to sit through invincibility, and thus can act out of the ledgetrump immediately, maybe even before the opponent has time to act. This would be a fun invincibility-tradeoff that creates more variation on the ledge
Surely somebody with enough patience can check if this is true or not.

Then comes the whole "but then they can just delay/mixup their recovery-timing to counter it"-part.
Forcing your opponent to mixup and Guess during the recovery is much better than to sit and watch as they grab the ledge for free. You can even use the first ledgegrab as a bait to make them react the way you want(if they try to hit you off before the invincibiliy wears off, then the situation resets. If they wait, you can just straight up go for the gimp without thinking about the ledge because they might be at a point where they wont get a free ledgesweetspot when facing a hitbox)

 

[NondairyDanzig]

Here's my take on it(mostly speculation):

You most likely cannot hit your opponent after ledgetrumping them if they jump and/or use a very quick attack because of the long invincibility you have to sit through. It can, however, put them in an unfavorable position with the correct follow-up option.

But, as somebody else mentioned aswell: If you grab the ledge once before the trump itself, you wont have to sit through invincibility, and thus can act out of the ledgetrump immediately, maybe even before the opponent has time to act. This would be a fun invincibility-tradeoff that creates more variation on the ledge
Surely somebody with enough patience can check if this is true or not.

Then comes the whole "but then they can just delay/mixup their recovery-timing to counter it"-part.
Forcing your opponent to mixup and Guess during the recovery is much better than to sit and watch as they grab the ledge for free. You can even use the first ledgegrab as a bait to make them react the way you want(if they try to hit you off before the invincibiliy wears off, then the situation resets. If they wait, you can just straight up go for the gimp without thinking about the ledge because they might be at a point where they wont get a free ledgesweetspot when facing a hitbox)

Why would you just sit and watch them recover for free? What's wrong with following them offstage to intercept their recoveries with aerials?