Edge Trumping Mechanic Discussion (+follow ups)

[Gardex]

Why would you just sit and watch them recover for free? What's wrong with following them offstage to intercept their recoveries with aerials?

Against certain characters, in various situations, you simply dont have the time and/or ability to do that.(IE because of the general buffed recoveries and sweetspotting(ledgesnapping might've become harder, but more characters can do it than before, like DDD and Zelda))

Which is exactly why I adressed it and said that IF you can make the opponent fear the trump and thus wait a bit with the recovery, you'll open up a situation that lets you go offstage, guns blazing

 

[Chauzu]

But, as somebody else mentioned aswell: If you grab the ledge once before the trump itself, you wont have to sit through invincibility, and thus can act out of the ledgetrump immediately, maybe even before the opponent has time to act. This would be a fun invincibility-tradeoff that creates more variation on the ledge
Surely somebody with enough patience can check if this is true or not.

I was actually trying this when making my vid.

It doesn't matter if you do it with or without invicibility, there is always a brief period when you can't jump of the ledge.

 

[NobleClamtasm]

I was actually trying this when making my vid.

It doesn't matter if you do it with or without invicibility, there is always a brief period when you can't jump of the ledge.

Well damn, that's not good to hear. Thanks for trying it out. I'll hold off any further opinions until I play the demo myself.

 

[T-block]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cq2fkkQnVGI#t=15m

Double edgegrab at 15:06. Looks like there's a window where multiple characters can grab the ledge? I wonder how big it is.

 

[PizzaWenisaur]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cq2fkkQnVGI#t=15m

Double edgegrab at 15:06. Looks like there's a window where multiple characters can grab the ledge? I wonder how big it is.

It's because when a person is on the ledge and has started to do an action ( i.e. getting onto the stage, rolling on to the stage, jumping, attacking ) the game allows another person to be on the ledge even though technically the first person is still on it.
While the first person is in the frames of the animation he cannot be trumped. This is why it might be hard to force trump someone because they could immediately get on the ledge.

 

[WastingPenguins]

Based on that video, it looks like you can buffer a get-up from the ledge to begin immediately upon grabbing it. You don't even have to wait for your invincibility frames to end – you can just grab the ledge and immediately go into a get-up attack or roll. And once you're standing up, you can't be trumped – the person attempting the trump just grabs the ledge and hangs on simultaneously. If this is true, then the whole trumping mechanic is more or less worthless for competitive play. How disappointing that a mechanic with so much potential could be totally nullified by a few small properties. Someone with actual experience playing the game, please feel free to correct me on anything, I'm just speculating based on what I've seen and read.

 

[Chauzu]

Well it is actually possible to be two persons on the ledge but I think this is when one opponent is climbing up from the ledge at the same time that another one is grabbing it, making it looks like they are two. It has happened a few times to me.

It has never happened that two characters have been hanging together.

 

[Life]

Based on that video, it looks like you can buffer a get-up from the ledge to begin immediately upon grabbing it. You don't even have to wait for your invincibility frames to end – you can just grab the ledge and immediately go into a get-up attack or roll. And once you're standing up, you can't be trumped – the person attempting the trump just grabs the ledge and hangs on simultaneously. If this is true, then the whole trumping mechanic is more or less worthless for competitive play. How disappointing that a mechanic with so much potential could be totally nullified by a few small properties. Someone with actual experience playing the game, please feel free to correct me on anything, I'm just speculating based on what I've seen and read.

Worthless? The trumping player (provided their reaction is on point) can ledge hop fair or whatever and punish them by the time they actually get on stage.

 

[T-block]

Ah I see... guess that makes sense.

I also agree this doesn't make the ledgeplay we're talking about worthless in any sense. In fact, the more I learn about this mechanic, the more excited I am about what it's going to lead to =o

 

[NondairyDanzig]

Worthless? The trumping player (provided their reaction is on point) can ledge hop fair or whatever and punish them by the time they actually get on stage.

Yes, worthless. The amount of times I've had to repeat myself with this is insane. The trumping player can't ledge hop fair or whatever because they can't let go as long as they have invincibility. Yes, you can grab ledge earlier to waste your invincibility. But doing a ledgedrop, waiting offstage for them to sweetspot, then trumping them IMMEDIATELY (fast enough to punish a roll which is quick) takes ridiculous timing and positioning, and they can always just do their up B slightly earlier or later and completely ruin your timing. Please send me a video of anyone doing this reliably vs a human before you insist this isn't worthless.

 

[WastingPenguins]

Yep, NondairyDanzig is the one in this thread who gets it. You can't just ledgehop fair to punish a ledge roll because you are glued to the ledge during your invincibility frames. My guess is that Sakurai implemented ledge trumping to make recovery easier so that the game is less punishing for new players, but then realized that this mechanic would let players punish the trumped player too easily with a ledge dropped backair, so he made it so you're glued to the edge for a while after grabbing (while giving the trumped player the ability to instantly jump, airdodge, attack or upB again). In other words, it appears the trumping mechanic was specifically designed to be simple and accessible, and to eliminate opportunities to punish a player who has been trumped.At least, that's what I'm seeing. This is all speculation since I haven't played the game, but I at least have video and written evidence to back up my claims.

 

[Thinkaman]

I might be crazy, but based on gameplay feel and videos, when you steal the ledge it doesn't seem like you are stuck on the edge as long before you can drop off. (As usual) Just watch the video carefully, it doesn't seem like the usual duration.

I'm going back to the game to continue to easily hit people out of ledge steals; you guys can continue to stay here and theorycraft that it shouldn't be possible.

 

[NondairyDanzig]

I'm going back to the game to continue to easily hit people out of ledge steals; you guys can continue to stay here and theorycraft that it shouldn't be possible.

Great input to the discussion there. Good job.

 

[Thinkaman]

I posted my practical, hands-on experience that conflicted with the theorycrafting, and it was ignored. So...

 

[NondairyDanzig]

Conflicted with what theorycrafting? Someone came up with an idea of how to use trumps as a reliable edgeguard, including punishing an instant roll. I explained why it's not realistically possible, and tested at length myself with a friend. If you think it is realistically viable, please show me a video of you doing it (with a human not CPU), or at least explain your steps in detail and why the points I said earlier aren't valid. I don't understand why people are so determined to cling on to the idea of this without giving any suggestion to why it would work, and ignoring my points about why it won't work.

 

[WastingPenguins]

I actually appreciate the input, Thinkaman, but would you mind contributing some actual information on how this is actually viable in competitive play? After all, nobody is saying that it's impossible to hit your opponent after trumping them -- we're just wondering if it's impossible to follow up on an opponent who is playing correctly, i.e. taking advantage of the actual options the game affords them to evade your followup. After all, if the tactic works against someone's random scrubby friend, for example, that's not exacly going to translate into competitive play in the long run. So if you say these tactics are viable, what about our analysis is actually wrong? I'm all ears because I would be thrilled to find out that this actually works against a good opponent in a competitive match.

 

[Thinkaman]

Yes, worthless. The amount of times I've had to repeat myself with this is insane. The trumping player can't ledge hop fair or whatever because they can't let go as long as they have invincibility. Yes, you can grab ledge earlier to waste your invincibility.

This is simply not correct. You can ledge drop after around half the duration when trumping.

You can see this clearly in the video posted, or by timing it yourself. You can ledge drop in less than 0.4 seconds, just like Sethalon did. Normally you are stuck on the ledge for ~0.6 seconds.

 

[Thinkaman]

I actually appreciate the input, Thinkaman, but would you mind contributing some actual information on how this is actually viable in competitive play? After all, nobody is saying that it's impossible to hit your opponent after trumping them -- we're just wondering if it's impossible to follow up on an opponent who is playing correctly, i.e. taking advantage of the actual options the game affords them to evade your followup. After all, if the tactic works against someone's random scrubby friend, for example, that's not exacly going to translate into competitive play in the long run. So if you say these tactics are viable, what about our analysis is actually wrong? I'm all ears because I would be thrilled to find out that this actually works against a good opponent in a competitive match.

I haven't had a person IRL dodge Mario or Mega Man's bair, but I'm 99% sure it's possible with an buffered air dodge. This is obviously punishable by a variety of aerials.

 

[WastingPenguins]

That's great, if true. Can someone else with the game test this out for confirmation?

 

[WastingPenguins]

What if your opponent simply jumps or upB's again after being trumped, intead of airdodging? Are you saying you think it's possible to follow up after a trump quickly enough to intercept that sort of maneuver, generally speaking?

 

[Thinkaman]

Instant ledge attack or roll is punishable by a grab (at the minimum, u-smash or other OoS options work too) on read.

 

[Thinkaman]

What if your opponent simply jumps or upB's again after being trumped, intead of airdodging? Are you saying you think it's possible to follow up after a trump quickly enough to intercept that sort of maneuver?

They always try to jump, that's the assumed default input. It doesn't even have time to come out.

No one's up-b is going to be fast enough except Mega Man's, and guys like Mario/Marth/Lucina against slower bairs.

 

[WastingPenguins]

What about this. When a player grabs the edge, it seems that they can trigger a ledge attack or roll-onto-stage almost immediately. If you try to trump them, you'll grab the ledge and get stuck there for a second, while they roll onto the stage instead of being trumped. Is it possible to follow up with a ledgehop aerial before they can get a shield out?

 

[Thinkaman]

You can do it faster, but there is still a slight minimum delay before ledge attack or roll.

 

[Life]

I'm not sure where this idea is coming from that the recovering player can get off the ledge almost instantly while the edgeguarding player is stuck on the ledge all day.

 

[WastingPenguins]

Life, it came from here. Check out Ness at 15:06.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cq2fkkQnVGI#t=15m

 

[Qikz]

Life, it came from here. Check out Ness at 15:06.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cq2fkkQnVGI#t=15m

I don't think that example there is an example of what Thinkaman means. I think Thinkaman (who's posts I can't help but read as if he's in a courtroom) is saying that you trump the person off the ledge, not sit on it and get trumped yourself. Also as Zelda already had the ledge before she has no invincibility frames on her second ledge grab which means that she doesn't technically get thrown off the ledge as if she's jumping like what Think is trying to explain.

From personal experience playing the game, one of the techniques I've been trying to do but failing due to my execution is waiting for them to grab the ledge then immediately jumping on it after them. This throws them off the ledge just in range for a backair (Lucina or Marth). Someone at the day1 stream tournament (can't remember who it was or what the tournament was callled) did the exact same thing and got a kill.

I don't think this is about trying to "hog" the ledge like what Zelda tried to do there, unless I'm completely misunderstanding what you mean. AFAIK they don't get "trumped" (as in thrown off the ledge right away) unless they're still in the invincibility frames.

 

[Untouch]

Looks like you can't instantly boot someone off if they're in iframes.

 

[slimjim]

Please notify me if I'm incorrect, but the topic currently up for debate would be the viability of a ledge-guarding player using the trumping mechanic to force the edge-holding player into a disadvantageous position. My stance is that the trumping mechanic only exercises a huge amount of influence when both characters are off-stage. Since we are however talking about 1 player on the edge and 1 player on the stage, I contribute the following:

The new edge mechanics would only be an issue if 1 of 2 things occurred:
1) It reduced the options to get back on stage to one "best" option and 1-2 worse options used only to surprise people
2) It reduced the options to guard the stage to one "best" option and 1-2 worse options used only to surprise people
These would limit good competitive edge play. Thankfully, neither are the case. All trumping did was take (l)edge play from previous generations and add a new mechanic that exercises influence most when both characters are off-stage.

If the edge player lingers on the edge you're guarding, trump them, then bait and follow up. If they use a get up attack, or get up immediately while you're ledgeguarding, run off the ledge and backair. Or if they wait for invincibility to run out, shield on the ledge and OoS punish them if they retain the option to roll. It's still standard ledge-play but with a varied mechanic called trumping. Pure theory isn't the end-all-be-all of a mechanic except in the m2k matchup because he's frame perfect 99 times out of 100. *start megaman theme*

 

[Scala]

My understanding was that you don't get ledge invincibility unless you recover from sufficiently far away. If you run off the stage and trump the ledge I thought you shouldn't be "stuck" due to not having that invincibility

 

[slimjim]

My understanding was that you don't get ledge invincibility unless you recover from sufficiently far away. If you run off the stage and trump the ledge I thought you shouldn't be "stuck" due to not having that invincibility

The way it works is that you only get invincibility frames the first time you grab an edge, from any distance (touching the stage or getting hit resets this counter). If you grab one edge, then go under the stage and grab the other side, you do not get your invincibility frames back. Thus if you run off the stage and grab it, you will have invincibility frames because you had just been touching the stage and the game counts it as your first time grabbing it.

 

[NobleClamtasm]

The way it works is that you only get invincibility frames the first time you grab an edge, from any distance (touching the stage or getting hit resets this counter). If you grab one edge, then go under the stage and grab the other side, you do not get your invincibility frames back. Thus if you run off the stage and grab it, you will have invincibility frames because you had just been touching the stage and the game counts it as your first time grabbing it.

You're on the right track, but invincibility also takes into account your air time before you grab the ledge. By going under that stage and grabbing the other side, you will get invincibility frames based on the time it takes you to travel to the other side.

 

[slimjim]

You're on the right track, but invincibility also takes into account your air time before you grab the ledge. By going under that stage and grabbing the other side, you will get invincibility frames based on the time it takes you to travel to the other side.

From my testing, that only applies to the first time you grab the ledge. If you grab the ledge once, then fall and cross to the other under the stage with pikachu or villager, you get no invincibility frames back. However, if you are on the stage, jump off, then without grabbing the ledge, go under the stage to the other side, your invincibility frames are greatly increased.

 

[Roko Jono]

As far as the demo goes, I don't think you will be able to do this against Pikachu. So far hes the only character in the demo who can instantly act out of ledge grab. He can instant ledge drop, but it still takes away the invincibility frames. I'm wondering if other characters in the full game are able to instant ledge drop.

 

[NobleClamtasm]

From my testing, that only applies to the first time you grab the ledge. If you grab the ledge once, then fall and cross to the other under the stage with pikachu or villager, you get no invincibility frames back. However, if you are on the stage, jump off, then without grabbing the ledge, go under the stage to the other side, your invincibility frames are greatly increased.

Hm.. that's not what I observed from watching streams, but if you've tested if then I suppose you're right.

As far as the demo goes, I don't think you will be able to do this against Pikachu. So far hes the only character in the demo who can instantly act out of ledge grab. He can instant ledge drop, but it still takes away the invincibility frames. I'm wondering if other characters in the full game are able to instant ledge drop.

If what you say is correct, then that means Pikachu can follow up easily after trumping someone off the ledge. Can you test this?

 

[slimjim]

I just tested it for an extra 30mins to make sure haha. And strange, pikachu does seem to be able to act very fast off of the edge. i wonder if they made that character-specific based on speed...that would be very interesting...

 

[Roko Jono]

I just tested it for an extra 30mins to make sure haha. And strange, pikachu does seem to be able to act very fast off of the edge. i wonder if they made that character-specific based on speed...that would be very interesting...

Now if we can get someone with the full game to test we could have a list of characters who can instant ledge drop

 

[outofphase]

So far, it seems to me that run-off turnaround ledge trump-> ledgehop bair/nair may be solid with pikachu. If the frame data backs that up, we might be able to start cutting into this recovery buff.

 

[Pazzo.]

At least with Mega Man, I've preformed ledge trump -> b-air for a good edgeguarding tactic. I wonder how this would work with other characters...?

 

[NobleClamtasm]

So far, it seems to me that run-off turnaround ledge trump-> ledgehop bair/nair may be solid with pikachu. If the frame data backs that up, we might be able to start cutting into this recovery buff.

At least with Mega Man, I've preformed ledge trump -> b-air for a good edgeguarding tactic. I wonder how this would work with other characters...?

Remember, this is only a true follow up if you're able to hit them while they're still stunned by the ledge trump. Otherwise, they can easily double jump out and escape.