Edge Trumping Mechanic Discussion (+follow ups)

[NobleClamtasm]

I feel that it would be possible to follow up an edge trump by immediately dropping, double jumping into aerial. Most streamers right now are too afraid to grab the ledge, so it's hard to tell. I don't have the demo myself, but would someone with the demo please confirm/deny if this?

 

[Mamp]

I feel that it would be possible to follow up an edge trump by immediately dropping, double jumping into aerial. Most streamers right now are too afraid to grab the ledge, so it's hard to tell. I don't have the demo myself, but would someone with the demo please confirm/deny if this?

I think it's the reverse; if you get trumped, you can move almost immediately, and can follow up with a quick aerial. I've seen a couple of people drop down to grab the ledge before their opponent could, then hit them with an aerial.

 

[SamSun]

I'm watching Vex test possible followups from edge stealing, most characters have followups from ledge steal. chat is calling ledge steal > folllow up "Vexing" I dig it.

Diddy can get ledge steal > down air. Bowser can get ledge steal > bowsercide.

 

[Saxophoneoftime]

I'm watching Vex test possible followups from edge stealing, most characters have followups from ledge steal. chat is calling ledge steal > folllow up "Vexing" I dig it.

Diddy can get ledge steal > down air. Bowser can get ledge steal > bowsercide.

I'm watching the same stream now too, it seems pretty promising tbh.

 

[NobleClamtasm]

I'm watching Vex test possible followups from edge stealing, most characters have followups from ledge steal. chat is calling ledge steal > folllow up "Vexing" I dig it.

Diddy can get ledge steal > down air. Bowser can get ledge steal > bowsercide.

I'm watching it as well on Zero's stream :o
The edge game lives!

 

[Saxophoneoftime]

He just got it with Marth's spike.

 

[SamSun]

This is gonna be a huge part of the metagame, so many guaranteed followups, jeez.

 

[Scruffy_Scoundrel]

New tech has been discovered on ZeRo's stream by Vex, we've decided to call it Vexing or Vexxing (two x's for 20XX).
Vexing is the act of stealing the ledge from another player and then either spiking or suicide KO'ing them (ex.bowsercide vex). When someone is vexed they are stunned and will die, vexing is an easy way to get the ko and to guard the ledge from characters who refuse to stay down.

 

[NobleClamtasm]

My fear is that once Bowsers start exploiting this online with Bowsercide, Nintendo will nerf the ledge trump instead of Bowser

 

[Mamp]

Pretty much any character with a quick spike or something similar to the Bowsercide can abuse this. Link, ROB, Bowser, Ganon, Falcon, spacies, Marth, Mario, Kirby, and ZSS all seem like good abusers of this technique.

 

[NobleClamtasm]

I don't think this needs a term. It's a pretty standard maneuver. It'd be easier to understand if we called it ledge trump -> follow up.

 

[SixSaw]

Vexing is love. Vexing is life.

 

[tenakomo]

I don't think this needs a term. It's a pretty standard maneuver. It'd be easier to understand if we called it ledge trump -> follow up.

Ledge Trumping is more appropriate, but Vexing has more pizazz.

 

[Saxophoneoftime]

I don't think this needs a term. It's a pretty standard maneuver. It'd be easier to understand if we called it ledge trump -> follow up.

Yeah, I like this better. Also it seems like the term is being way too forced.

Anyway, this is really exciting. It seems like ZSS's and Bowser's are the easiest to perform at first.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Considering how powerful this tactic appears to be it will likely have a noticeable impact on the metagame. A character who can abuse this strategy will have an obvious advantage. A character who can avoid this strategy will have an obvious advantage.

 

[Farrac]

Is there any footage on Youtube about this technique?

 

[Raijinken]

At least in the demo, the new edge mechanics feel very nice (and at least to me, are a significant improvement over the edgehog strats of past games). We'll have to see where it goes, though. Plenty of time to learn the game.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Is there any footage on Youtube about this technique?

I'm sure there will be videos about this soon enough. It's rally easy to explain and imagine though: you use the new ledge trump mechanic to put the opponent into an extremely undesirable position from where you can either gimp him rather easily or cycle through the process to get to gimp or deal considerable damage.

 

[tenakomo]

Is there any footage on Youtube about this technique?

Zero's friend is on his stream trying it out.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

For the record, Vex has yet to manage pulling it off against a human player. So far the timing didn't work out for him.

 

[NobleClamtasm]

For the record, Vex has yet to manage pulling it off against a human player. So far the timing didn't work out for him.

I think that's just him choking. He still hasn't pulled off a trump. It looks like the trumps can be avoided by ledge attacking immediately, but that can be easily read. I still feel that this has some potential

 

[Scruffy_Scoundrel]

In order to vex a human player you need to predict their ledge grab and trump them immediately, then just vex them to the shadowrealm. It's really hard to pull off against jiggs kirby and MK but not impossible. One thing I've noticed is that you can't just stand next to the edge and wait for them, they'll get too suspicious and recover high. you have you bait out the ledge grab or put them into a situation where they are forced to grab ledge, characters like ZSS and Shiek are really good at this.

 

[Shaya]

Hmm, the trumping mechanic has been named by Sakurai/Nintendo in some way right? I think this specific implementation of suicide moves could easily catch on as "Vexing" but otherwise the name seems to be there.

On that point, should we just have a single thread about discussing the mechanic?

 

[Mamp]

Hmm, the trumping mechanic has been named by Sakurai/Nintendo in some way right? I think this specific implementation of suicide moves could easily catch on as "Vexing" but otherwise the name seems to be there.

On that point, should we just have a single thread about discussing the mechanic?

Yeah, I think this should be merged into the other thread, and renamed "Edge Trumping Discussion Thread" or something to that effect.

 

[Scruffy_Scoundrel]

I was aware of trumping, Vexing is just a term for getting guaranteed ko's out of trumping be it through suicides or spikes. as for the thread I wasn't sure where to post it I just clicked post right after seeing it.

 

[tenakomo]

I believe it can become powerful with more practice. It was discovered very recently and not much people are aware of it. I personally wanna see if it can become more than just spiking and suicides. With the addition of custom moves, the meta will flourish!

 

[Overswarm]

Just FYI, none of the things from the ledge are "guaranteed" when you grab it in the Demo so far. However there are guaranteed options if you know what your opponent will do -- Mario, for example, can ledge steal from Megaman and get a guaranteed u-air if Megaman holds towards the stage and jumps. If Mario wants to hit with this he HAS to immediately jump off the ledge and u-air, otherwise he gets footstooled by Megaman.

From what I've seen, it's just a mixup game. Have the player who grabs the ledge just spam air dodge and try to punish it by dropping off the ledge and attacking the moment you steal it from them. Their air dodge will come out first. This indicates that they get to move first.

If you can call your opponent's option, you get a free hit. If you can't, you won't. There might be a few characters in the full game with larger hitboxes that can do more, but so far I have yet to see it.

Also don't call it vexxing, it makes you sound like a tool. It's just good ol' fashioned edgeguarding, taking the ledge is nothing new.

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

(This post assumes ledge invulnerability is also lost when a ledge is stolen from you, which I believe is true)

I'm honestly REALLY surprised NO ONE has done this yet nor thought about it, but this needs to be done as soon as possible for you guys who have the demo or full builds.

1. Have someone grab the ledge.
2. Grab it right after they do.
3. Once they're knocked off, they don't have invulnerability anymore. Get back onstage (jump on or just rise, rising with forward on analog might be safer).
4. Let them do whatever they want to get back onstage.
5. If they grab the ledge, just down tilt/smash (or use something that hits low enough to hit them off the ledge). They'll still be in recovery, but without invulnerability.
6. If they go over the ledge with an upB, punish accordingly.

The point of all this, tl;dr?

If they don't have their invulnerability after grabbing the ledge, they have little to no options to recover because their ledgegrab still has lag, but no invulnerability. If they rise above the ledge with upB, that's easily punishable. Autosweetspotting and sweetspotting become BAD things.

Test this.

 

[Overswarm]

You don't get the invulnerability back, but it is by no means a guarantee. You get your jump back when you take the ledge from them, which means they don't need the ledge at all. They can just jump on the stage.

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

You don't get the invulnerability back, but it is by no means a guarantee. You get your jump back when you take the ledge from them, which means they don't need the ledge at all. They can just jump on the stage.

Can you still get back on and hit them away in time, or swat them away from the stage as you jump off? Such as jumping back onstage with a Marth bair. If so you may still be able to abuse it. The fact that you can take away their invulnerability is the point of it all, which gives us an effective option of edgeguarding near the ledge atm. As long as something works.

They could just airdodge, but there's recovery on landing now, so I assume you can bait it out or autocancel an aerial to cover the airdodge, then throw them back offstage and repeat the process...

This would need more extensive testing between two people, imo.

 

[Overswarm]

Can you still get back on and hit them away in time, or swat them away from the stage as you jump off? Such as jumping back onstage with a Marth bair. If so you may still be able to abuse it. The fact that you can take away their invulnerability is the point of it all, which gives us an effective option of edgeguarding near the ledge atm. As long as something works.

They could just airdodge, but there's recovery on landing now, so I assume you can bait it out or autocancel an aerial to cover the airdodge, then throw them back offstage and repeat the process...

This would need more extensive testing between two people, imo.

I tested it extensively in the demo. Refer to this post:

Just FYI, none of the things from the ledge are "guaranteed" when you grab it in the Demo so far. However there are guaranteed options if you know what your opponent will do -- Mario, for example, can ledge steal from Megaman and get a guaranteed u-air if Megaman holds towards the stage and jumps. If Mario wants to hit with this he HAS to immediately jump off the ledge and u-air, otherwise he gets footstooled by Megaman.

From what I've seen, it's just a mixup game. Have the player who grabs the ledge just spam air dodge and try to punish it by dropping off the ledge and attacking the moment you steal it from them. Their air dodge will come out first. This indicates that they get to move first.

If you can call your opponent's option, you get a free hit. If you can't, you won't. There might be a few characters in the full game with larger hitboxes that can do more, but so far I have yet to see it.

Also don't call it vexxing, it makes you sound like a tool. It's just good ol' fashioned edgeguarding, taking the ledge is nothing new.

If there's anything "guaranteed" about any of this, it's character specific. The only exception is that you can force them to jump off the ledge, but at that point they have many options and you are on the ledge.

You also get your invincibility back when you input a roll, getup attack, etc., for a few frames. So if your master plan is to steal the ledge from them, get on stage, and charge an f-smash then the opponent can grab the ledge and immediately roll with no delay.

It's still worth investigating, but there's no "this is how you edgeguard everyone" thing discovered yet.

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

Wow, that sucks. You actually get it back when you input it during ledgegrab recovery, despite not actually being able to get up yet? That's kind of disgusting imo.

 

[ChikoLad]

I've had a couple of times where my opponent and I could simultaneously grab the ledge at the same time.

Since one of us does get popped off after, I think it might be the result of the really close percents between us or something. Not sure though, I'd have to experience it more.

 

[Shog]

Just want to say that Vexing sounds incredible stupid. Why does that even need a name, as far as I got it, it is using the new edge mechanics combined with edgeguard. Is there a need for a name anyways?

(And yes I can't provide anything interesting to that matter)

 

[Signia]

Just want to say that Vexing sounds incredible stupid. Why does that even need a name, as far as I got it, it is using the new edge mechanics combined with edgeguard. Is there a need for a name anyways?

(And yes I can't provide anything interesting to that matter)

People were just trying to troll Apotheosis275, a twitch chatter / redditor, for saying how dumb calling it "Vexing" was. The Vexing thread was a direct response to him. Looks like they failed to make it catch on, though.

 

[Scruffy_Scoundrel]

Feel free to call it whatever you like as long as everyone knows about this option that's good enough for me (although I'll still refer to it as vexing), Also note that it is guaranteed if you throw out a move with a big enough hit box. Bowser uses this strategy very well with his bair, nair, or bowsercide. I've also seen it used to great success with characters with multiple jumps offstage, since you can miss the initial trump but still punish them after their invincibility ends

 

[TastyCarcass]

I'm not sure if this works properly.
If a recoverer sees this coming, wouldn't he just pull up onto the stage as soon as it is possible to do so?

 

[SamSun]

when you grab the ledge, you can't act for a small amount of time. the idea of vexing is to grab the ledge during the time that they can't act, making it a guaranteed followup

 

[Overswarm]

when you grab the ledge, you can't act for a small amount of time. the idea of vexing is to grab the ledge during the time that they can't act, making it a guaranteed followup

You can input a getup attack, roll, etc., the moment you grab the ledge and they can occupy the ledge while your animation plays.

 

[NobleClamtasm]

You can input a getup attack, roll, etc., the moment you grab the ledge and they can occupy the ledge while your animation plays.

So it seems like it's possible to punish planking, or double jump aerials onto the stage. Trumping may not be the number 1 edgeguarding tool we would've hoped for, but the option is still there. I know you've already said that some characters don't guarantee a follow up, but from ZeRo's stream it genuinely looked as if certain characters (ex: Falco, Greninja, Bowser) have a guaranteed follow up if they avoid gaining the invincibility frames when grabbing the ledge. We'll have to see when we get our hands on the full game though.