Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!

[ElloEddy]

anyone wanna critique a little doc play? from me

 

[ElloEddy]

http://www.twitch.tv/pbnj23/b/493282223

doc vs shiek at 02:32:56 ots 3-4 games ...the second -4th game i play better

doc vs spacies 02:56:50


if anyone would lend some helpful tips... it would be greatly appreciated , im tryna make some improvement b4 apex

 

[Coolwhip]

What are doc's options when falling from the air?

 

[XTrEMeSteel14]

He doesn't have really good options, I guess you could use dair.Just don't lose your double jump.

 

[Toomad]

I play against Samus a LOT (very few people to play against where I am). So, some Samus specific questions:

I have a lot of trouble with Samus' f-tilt, the range is crazy and it comes out so fast, what are my options? My friend is pretty good at spacing it, I can crouch cancel it but I can't figure out how to answer back, should I just retreat?

Neither of us are very good players. I've read a lot about how Doc's dash attack isn't very good, but it seems to be the only thing my friend regularly lets slip through his guard. I don't want to just get into a habit of doing what works against him, what are my more solid approach options?

 

[Frisbie]

I play against Samus a LOT (very few people to play against where I am). So, some Samus specific questions:

I have a lot of trouble with Samus' f-tilt, the range is crazy and it comes out so fast, what are my options? My friend is pretty good at spacing it, I can crouch cancel it but I can't figure out how to answer back, should I just retreat?

Neither of us are very good players. I've read a lot about how Doc's dash attack isn't very good, but it seems to be the only thing my friend regularly lets slip through his guard. I don't want to just get into a habit of doing what works against him, what are my more solid approach options?

Wavedash in and shield his fsmash, wavedash out of shield to punish(something like jab->grab/dsmash). Samus has such a slow grab that you can react to it if she tries to grab you when you're in your shield, so you're pretty safe playing out of shield. Crouch cancel-> dsmash is pretty good, just be careful not to crouch cancel too much because it becomes predictable, and also there are some percents/moves that you can't crouch cancel.

 

[Max?]

Solid advice from people. Sled, if you can put those matches on youtube I'll watch em, twitch sucks on my computer.

Falling from the air you just want to get back on the ground asap. If that means putting an aerial out there to protect yourself, airdodging, going for a platform, w'e. Just land and regain control. Mix it up, doing the same thing everytime (RE; DAIR) will get you killed.

Pretty sure Doc beats Samus. You can beat her spacing game by WDing in with your shield up. Throw a ton of pills, cape back her projectiles, and then when you get close, stay on that ass. Samus's options from above are as ****ty as yours, so take advantage of it by getting her above you, wait to see what she does, and juggle her with moves. She hits your shield with anything? WD -> dsmash. Her grab sucks, so you have a little leeway in pressuring her shield, but watch out for her Up OOS as it is quite good. Throw -> fair doesn't work on her unless she lets it. Just be patient, don't give stuff for free, and dont be afraid of a camp war as you can probably win.

 

[poega]

Sled, you have a great doc. I cant help you much but I think you could gain a lot from making sure you always go for the stuff when punishing and be a bit more shifty between offense and defence in your movements.
Samus can be a bit of a *****, my favorite move is uairing her shield goin past her and then downsmash her ass.

I got a question for Dajuan but anyone else is free to give their input!
So I remember commentators from KoC or some other cali tourney saying Dajuan always goes sheik vs PPU nowadays cus "PPU pretty much got doc figured out". Could we get specifics on what happened there? what did ppu start doing etc?

 

[Superw0rri0]

Sled, you have a great doc. I cant help you much but I think you could gain a lot from making sure you always go for the stuff when punishing and be a bit more shifty between offense and defence in your movements.
Samus can be a bit of a *****, my favorite move is uairing her shield goin past her and then downsmash her ***.

I got a question for Dajuan but anyone else is free to give their input!
So I remember commentators from KoC or some other cali tourney saying Dajuan always goes sheik vs PPU nowadays cus "PPU pretty much got doc figured out". Could we get specifics on what happened there? what did ppu start doing etc?

I would also like to know.... cause if we can figure out what happened we can figure out how to counter it... other than going shiek. Or at least learn from it.

 

[Superw0rri0]

I finally uploaded those matches that I talked about in my "what's docs best playstyle" thread and I was hoping I can get some critique.
These were recorded a week ago btw.

I was playing really scrubby and bad that day and I was pretty frustrated with myself. So excuse the occasional expression of anger.

Me (Doc) Vs Colus (Marth)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_KQPIOegB0

Me (Doc) Vs MeleeRuler (Falco)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9Az7CjjbfM

Stuff that I noticed:
I was really dropping the ball when it came to making the right decisions. I was throwing unnecessary pills, giving up stage control, repeating recoveries and get ups (i think at one point I did three roll get ups in a row), making unnecessary double jumps, dropping edge guards, missing punishes, grabbing when I was out of range, smashing when I didn't need to, landing an aerial attack in front of my opponent when they're shielding, and more. On top of that I was really messing up my techs (simple ones at that) and making bad inputs. Failed wavedashes, missed l-cancels, messing up inputs such as dair when i wanted to bair or dtilt when I wanted to ftilt, not fast falling, etc.

My conclusion from watching these:
I was playing really scrubby and my tech skill needs some serious fine tuning. That and I also need to work on fundamentals and match up knowledge (I really didn't know the falco match up but kind of learned it as I played). This includes knowing the strengths and weaknesses of my opponent as well as my self.

Result:
Since that tournament I've been practicing every day both on my own and against other people. Practiced a lot of tech skill and tried to find ways to apply it and worked on my fundamentals as I played with other people. Currently studying frame data and seeing what I can get out of that. Mostly Doc's right now but I'll eventually move on to the other characters. Also studying different common match ups.
Just from practicing every day for one week I'm already not making the same mistakes and my movement and tech skill are already better than what you see in the videos. Still have a lot of work to do of course but I'm getting better.

Goal #1:
Do not repeat the scrubby performance at that tourney
Goal #2:
Try to practice and study as much as I can and learn from other people
Goal #3:
Don't get frustrated and stay calm and chill when I play

As more and more tourneys come along and I'll post more.

Thanks!

 

[onionchowder]

@ Superw0rri0 oh god shakycam. Watching now.

Thoughts on v. Marth match.
Your edgeguard seems inconsistent. There are a few nice ones (Bair on Marth game 2), and then there are a lot of totally whiffed ones. This Marth did a lot of high up-Bs onto the stage, which should be a totally free punishment, but you seemed to be nervous and miss them. Even when you hit him, you're not maximizing our punishment (Marth game 3, up-Bs and oyu Uair him before he even lands!) Try to patiently go for grabs or smashes.

Good use of Uair to keep Marth above you, but not much follow-up after you land a hit. You seem to get overeager and overshooting after you land hits. Specifically, when Marth is shielding on the platform, you are full-hop Uair, double-jump Uair (both hitting the shield/missing), and ending up above him. Ending up above Marth is really bad news, even if this Marth isn't punishing you. Doc needs to stay conscious and precise.

Need more Bair as spacing move. Good use of Ftilt game 2, not enough game 1. Focus on stage control more; don't be so willing to dive after Marth and forfeit center-stage. Also, Utilt and Usmash as anti-airs are good (you seem to exclusively use Uair)

You do a good job of rushing in/following up after a pill. Nice Pill-Usmash kill. I find the best way to get in on Marth is to follow up a pill. Don't get too predictable with your pill habits though.

Your shield habits are odd. Sometimes you'll put up your shield/roll when Marth is too far away to hit you; don't do that. Keep working on your WD OoS; it's a crucial option. You had one really nice WD-grab OoS in game 2.

On the note of grabs, I think you should grab more (though this Marth didn't shield much). Moreover, work on your grab punishes; Doc has extremely reliably grab combos.

You seem to rely mostly on double-jump to get out of combos, and seem helpless when you lose it. I'm looking at the big combo Marth got at the end of Game 2. Doc wants to stay low to the ground; generally, try to DI dow and away and get your footing ASAP. Air-dodging down is also a great way to get out of combos, and the occasional cape to mess up your momentum

I dig the waveland-back baits.

In general, you need to be more patient when you have the upper hand. Often you'd whiff combo follow-ups or edgeguard punishes because you seemed over-eager, attacking before you needed to and missing as a result of imprecision. Doc needs to be very conscious and precise, especially vs. a character who out-ranges him (e.g. Marth).

 

[Superw0rri0]

@ onionchowder
Honestly... Idk why but that tournament I was just really nervous. Just all of a sudden I got the tournament jitters and I just felt so stupid in the way that I was playing.

But I took it as a learning experience and this last weekend I had another tourney... I wish I recorded the matches but I felt like my doc was much better than that tournament. I joined late and I had to get a bye in losers which was meh... but whatevs. I went up against a new falco player. I won but I felt like I was screwing up a lot. Played some friendlies while I waited for my next match to warm up and tighten my play. Then next match I lost but I felt a lot better about it. I was actually more satisfied with how I did in the match that I lost than the match that I won.

I still have a long way to go... I'll be posting more videos as tournaments come and go and hopefully I'll see improvement in each one.

 

[onionchowder]

Oh yeah, tournament jitters are a real issue. Took me about 3 tournaments before I was able to overcome them, and they still mess up my play when I get particularly nervous. Keep at it! I see bits and pieces of stellar play shining through, if you can do the good stuff consistently you'll be a formidable competitor.

 

[Superw0rri0]

Oh yeah, tournament jitters are a real issue. Took me about 3 tournaments before I was able to overcome them, and they still mess up my play when I get particularly nervous. Keep at it! I see bits and pieces of stellar play shining through, if you can do the good stuff consistently you'll be a formidable competitor.

Thanks... I really appreciate that. I feel like in every match I've had starting from that tournament I had the ability to win and I just didn't make the right decisions in the right moments... just gotta keep trying, learning, and adapting.

 

[onionchowder]

Doc's ledge get-up attack has a pretty nice reverse hitbox! It's pretty useful for edgeguarding Marth/Shiek/Falco when they try to barely land on stage. The get-up attack also hogs the edge for a good duration, so it often covers both options.

Forget 20XX! This is some 199X technology.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWjX1Z8liRY#t=2m18s
1:17 and 2:19

 

[Superw0rri0]

Lol.... i've done that a couple times in friendlies

 

[PTJon]

I'd really appreciate some critiques on my play: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5muBdEO_Vg
I played 3 other recorded sets at the tournament but I think this ones probably the best overall. I know I lack a lot of fluidity and precision and I'd love to hear other people's thoughts on how I play and how I can improve.

 

[Superw0rri0]

That's a very solid doc you got there... I'm too lazy to type up a review so I'll just record some commentary over your video.

Overall though... your doc is pretty darn good... you're just leaving yourself open either by shielding for too long, standing still for too long, or using your down b in bair range.

I'll go more into detail when I make the video... I'll have it ready either an hour from now or later tonight.

 

[PTJon]

That's a very solid doc you got there... I'm too lazy to type up a review so I'll just record some commentary over your video.

Overall though... your doc is pretty darn good... you're just leaving yourself open either by shielding for too long, standing still for too long, or using your down b in bair range.

I'll go more into detail when I make the video... I'll have it ready either an hour from now or later tonight.

Thanks dude, I appreciate it! I noticed that I played super scared when he had invincibility, I would just sit in my shield. And in regards to my down-b use, its gotten to the point where I only use it to stall the ledge and hope that my opponent will roll to stop the up-b. The problem is this mix-up doesn't really work against the guys that I train with... Is the general consensus that you should just stick to trying to gain a little height when recovering from far off?

 

[Superw0rri0]

All I know is that yes it's good for stalling but you're putting yourself in a position where you can easily get punished because 1 it's laggy and 2 it's slow and easily noticed. One option you should consider ESPECIALLY with doc's magnet hands is air dodging.... I've been playing around a lot with doc's magnet hands and you can do a lot of janky things with up b and air dodge

Oh and I'm really tired tonight so I'll get the video for you tomorrow.

 

[Frisbie]

I'd really appreciate some critiques on my play: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5muBdEO_Vg
I played 3 other recorded sets at the tournament but I think this ones probably the best overall. I know I lack a lot of fluidity and precision and I'd love to hear other people's thoughts on how I play and how I can improve.

I think I played some friendlies with you at a DIME tournament a while back. I didn't watch the whole set, but for your punish game, you can't actually chaingrab fox past the late fifties in percent. What you should do is around like 55%, if you're in the middle of the stage and he doesn't DI, do an upsmash, and it will lead to up air chains that you can end with dsmash, fsmash, or fair, depending on percent and DI. Mess around with it in friendlies, this helps a lot. Be careful with your pills also, especially against fox, cause faster characters or better players who read your pills will be able to avoid them and punish you for it. If you do a poorly spaced full hop pill, a better player will run under the pill and punish you for it. You bait out a lot of stuff with WD back, which is good, but you could be getting better punishes off of it. If I try to bait my opponent into over committing with WD back, I will do something like fair immediately (since fair is slow you really have to read it) or WD back in with jab->punish. The jab is important for situations where you only have a small window to punish. In friendlies, try playing with the mindset that all your moves and movement are for a specific purpose. That purpose could be as simple as maintaining proper spacing (so an opponent can't just hit you for free without over extending). Also, be careful with your jumps, Doc without a jump is terrible. Keep in mind that even if a roll looks safe, that doesn't mean that it is, because good mind games requires your opponent to make it seem like the intended response is the best option (like rolling in from the ledge when your opponent is very close to you applying pressure). Remember that in order to win as doc, you need to be able to anticipate your opponents' intentions very well, and you need to have an amazing punish game (this is what is preventing me from beating the top players in Texas at the moment). I'm sure you already know this, but practice your tech skill and movement too, as this will make many of the games aspects easier. Good luck dude, I hope you stick with Doc!

 

[PTJon]

Yea Frisbie that was me at DIME 5, the advice you gave me really helped me and motivated me to step up my game so thank you for that! Thanks for all the critiques too, I hope you come to DFW again sometime dude.

 

[Frisbie]

Yea Frisbie that was me at DIME 5, the advice you gave me really helped me and motivated me to step up my game so thank you for that! Thanks for all the critiques too, I hope you come to DFW again sometime dude.

For sure, I'll probably go to at least one tournament over the summer up there. I did notice that you took some of my advice from the DIME 5, so hopefully I'll see you level up by the time I come up there!

 

[onionchowder]

I'm starting to realize that Utilt has more combo potential than Usmash in a lot of situations. The problem is landing the late upward hitbox of the Utilt; the early sideways-kb hitbox has like zero follow-up potential. Utilt Fair works pretty well at some %s (I'm not totally sure when), and it's nice as an anti-air, especially when your opponent goes for run-off-platform-aerials. I've gotten some nice mid-% Utilt-Uair-Utilt strings on Shiek, though that was probably on bad DI.

 

[Superw0rri0]

I'll play around and look into it at some point.

 

[seeedy]

So one of the things that I have trouble dealing with is Doc's short ass arms. It's probably no surprise that I'm really bad at the Marth matchup.

The one thing I know is that I have to get in close, but does anyone have any tips for how to actually "get in"? What's the best way to punish missed forward smashes from Marth, or recover from the ledge? I'm pretty good at spacing with the pills, but is there any specific pill tactics that would help?

 

[Superw0rri0]

Read the Marth match up guide that'll help. But here's some quick tips. Wave dashing is your best friend in this match up. Punishing a whiffed fsmash with a wave dash into grab/dsmash/combo starter is a solid punish. Also a late dash attack (hitting at the end of a dash attack) can surprise them and if you time it right you can get a quick combo to rack up some damage. However, and I can't stress this enough, use dash attack sparingly, because if you get predictable with this move you might as well forfeit. It's good for the occasional dash attack to ftilt to uair and or more but don't use it to much. It's an ok punish for his less laggy moves where wave dashing would be too slow. Also pills are great for this match up but a good Marth will learn your pill game and slash or dodge them so mix up your pill game. I find pilling marth's approach can mess them up. One thing I found useful is if a Marth starts slashing away your pills, you can use them too bait an attack. One thing I like to do is placebo affect into grab (full hop into pill into forward wavedash into grab) so when he tries to slash away your pill you grab him while he's busy but be careful to not get hit by the attack he's using to get rid of the pill. Try to stay outside of tip range in neutral and when attacking stay inside his sour range so if you whiff he won't get a tipper.

Hope this helps

 

[ElloEddy]

finally got some vids if anyone would be down to critique or just watch that be cool

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcdH6FKP17c&list=UUJdCJmXEUgWSjfzd-fjBhAw

http://www.twitch.tv/beastmodeny/c/3987059

 

[VGmasta]

Been a while since I been on here. I wanna get back into melee now that I have Saturdays off again. This character is so fun to use.

I forgot how difficult Jiggly puff was:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Y972rqhMVPg

 

[Superw0rri0]

Welcome back

Edit:
Literally just finished watching your first match.... that four stock man.... you got a nice doc. Only problem I see so far is that you're using green doc instead of black.

 

[Frisbie]

Been a while since I been on here. I wanna get back into melee now that I have Saturdays off again. This character is so fun to use.

I forgot how difficult Jiggly puff was:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Y972rqhMVPg

not bad. I actually don't think the jiggs matchup is that bad for doc. You were doing well in the second game, I think if your combo DI was better you could have done better

 

[ElloEddy]

you played hbox , wish i could say more but you played hbox , and he was standing up he was sleeping super hard man

 

[SmashMac]

Should have spammed more pills Ricky. At least make it harder for him to get in with Jiggs. Spamming pills correctly (spacing them) would've made it a bit harder for him. Of course, it is HBox, one of the top 5 players in the world, but overall against Jiggs, pills are extremely important. They're important in every matchup really, but Jiggs is one of those characters they're especially important against.

 

[Superw0rri0]

It's like bombs with young link

 

[VGmasta]

Thanks for the compliment Soperw0rri0. Although, I think Young Link's bomb lead to much better setups, than Doc's pills.

Oh, and the green suit is a carry-over from the orange and green smiley avatar that I used in Halo 2. It's my trademark and I decided to keep the theme going into melee. Besides that, all the other colors were in high occupancy by other Doc players: SmashMac (red), BobMoney (red), HomeMadeWaffles (red), DogySamich (black), Shroomed (black), AngryLobster (blue), Pine (blue), EighteenSpikes (blue), DJ Nintendo (red). I don't know the designated color for OTG/Max? and Boss.

Should have spammed more pills Ricky. At least make it harder for him to get in with Jiggs. Spamming pills correctly (spacing them) would've made it a bit harder for him. Of course, it is HBox, one of the top 5 players in the world, but overall against Jiggs, pills are extremely important. They're important in every matchup really, but Jiggs is one of those characters they're especially important against.

Absolutely! Where in the hell were my pills?! That's all I use to do 7 years ago. Now I try focusing more on closing in with other attacks I forget to use the pills altogether.
It's been so long since I played, I forgot to take in account some of the other characters' priority.
And totally forgot about all those weird insta-kill setups that Jiggs had.
I was totally mashing Up-B to try to escape whatever that 6 hit combo was, and still couldn't get out! That was stupid!

But that was a fun tournament though. Playing against top 5th in the nation, while being recorded live on stream is quite exhilarating! I want more!
I'll try taking HungryBox down next tournament. I still got Saturdays off right now. So, Imma start playing in more tournaments again.

Thanks for the advice and reminders guys.

 

[Superw0rri0]

Boss uses blue

And I think with more practice and de-rusting you could beat hungry box.... dude... VGMasta for new top 5!

 

[DragonZProductions]

I am still relatively new to playing doc (been playing for about 2-3 months but not a ton of practice until the last 2-3 weeks) and I was trying to work on my pill game and I noticed that the after animation for pill during like a jump was enormously long. For example in the video "The Doctor's Checkup" at the very beginning he is throwing pills from edge, or even later on at 4:33 when he does place-bo, heck any of the pills tricks in that video, seem to take way less animation time on the pill throw then mine. Is there some sort of trick I am missing or something?

 

[Superw0rri0]

Nope... there is nothing special.... You just have press b as soon as you get off the ground. I felt that way too where I wasn't able to wave dash at the end of the animation.... turns out I was just pressing B to late. You have to be fast to press it after a jump or else you will land before the animations ends.

 

[DragonZProductions]

I'm sorry but I'm still confused I literally feel like I can't do it any faster...

 

[Superw0rri0]

You're not able to do the wavedash or double jump after the pill throw because you're pressing b to late.... try pressing it faster after you jump.

And for the ledge cancelled pills.... you need to jump as soon as you let go of the ledge. It's pretty fast. Try practicing in slow mode.