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Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!

St. Viers

Smash Champion
Joined
May 15, 2006
Messages
2,409
Location
Boston MA
Um, I sorta agree. Ganon is inherently better (imo) than doc is, in terms of power, range, and recovery. Also, he can edgeguard as well as (if not better) than doc, using u-airs and b-airs.

Doc has a bit more speed, and a slightly easier time getting in hits, but honestly, Ganon was simply underrated, while doc probably isn't. Feel free to prove me wrong though--that's what I'm trying to do
 

Dogysamich

The Designated Hype Man!
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 3, 2002
Messages
6,140
Location
Warner Robins, Georgia
Did someone summon the green wall of text?!?!?!

__

I seriously think it can happen, not because of "being a doc fanboy" (cause im actually not, I would have no problem dropping doc for my falco in a flash if i felt it'd really get my job accomplished), but because I seriously think it can be done.

The thing is, there has yet to be a doc who is flat out that good. Period. None. Bob money was good, but he wasnt THAT good. (No slam to bob, im just stating facts here).

The reason why people say it cant be done is because Smash is a real cookie cutting community. "The only way it can be done is if you play one of the elite 4 or jiggs and hop to it." I mean ****, yeah it works like that, if everybody plays the same. Which is why everybody is apparently losing to the same thing (M2K, jiggs, etc, etc). But the cookie cutting is extreme in smash. Down to everybody tends to play every character basically the same way. Always looking to get in and make the combo videos out of people.

I swear to god I'll shut my mouth when I see Jwong playing like, any game with Sagat and rushing the everlasting **** out of top people and winning. I will. But it's kind-of the same idea, some characters just flat out cant be played the same.

But like, "Doc doesnt have the range to beat marth?" Pfft. That kinda illudes to yet another thing I dont understand about smash. Why the **** is it in smash that 6-4 is a bad matchup? I mean, it's possible to argue Doc/Marth being 7-3, but that's a hard arguement to drive. "Doc doesnt have the range." Somebody doesnt really know what range is, because like everybody else, they cookie cut. News Flash: Doc has more range than marth. It's just that when Marth stays in his best range and does everything right, he can pretty much shut Doc down. But no, people just look at "Marth has a long disjointed hitbox and Doc has ****ty range." -rolls eyes- Pills? Maybe? Do people realize Marth HAS TO initially approach? I mean, dealing with pills isnt really a problem with Marth, but once you learn how to look at the grand scheme of things you realize that Marth initially has to approach Doc or Doc can put him in defense as he comes in.

[smashrant]
"But Doc cant beat marth's defense." Well if Doc, as well as apparently every other character, cant beat marth's defense ever, than Smash is really a ****tier game the communitiy realizes. I mean, people are starting to come around to some of the faults now that Jiggs is lurking around. But seriously, in the past few weeks i've been doing alot of practice on how to read people and learning about general fighting game info (which contrary to what the smash community as a whole will say, it helps a SH**TON in smash. A SH**TON.) Seriously. I know melee isnt the greatest game ever, I personally just know better; but if people really want to claim melee as "the greatest game ever", then they're gunna kinda need to realize alot of things. It's interesting how many things have flown under the radar for years. [/smashrant]

But I mean, with doc vs marth. I dont know how many times I've told a Doc how to beat a Marth, and how many times I've told a Marth how to beat a Doc. More-of-than-not, upon telling the Doc player, he'll go in actually make a big improvement in the matchup, or start winning. The marth on the other hand wont have any for the longest. That's even if they take the advice. One of the reasons because Doc players dont really have anything to cookie cut, so for them to be good they actually have to consider a bunch of possibilities, whether they really like it or not. We dont have better. Straight up. If anybody ever gives me any advice that really sounds worth a ****, I have no choice but to consider it. Bob$ cant answer all my questions, no Doc can. But marths? They copy playstyle all ****ing day, but they dont understand what really has to happen. It's really scary how quick they are to give up their advantage.

For the record, I really dont care if somebody knows how to beat a character, they still have to 1) ****ing practice the motions and reads, and 2) actually do them and not do the bad things. I just went to the Peach boards and basically gave them everything they'll really need to know to ever beat a Doc. In all actuallity, until Docs (me included, dear god me included) start playing the matchup "like it should be", Peach players dont even need to know half of the stuff I told them.

All in all, unless melee is really a crappy game that the smash community wont fess up to, then it can be done. Somebody or some people need to step up. There are not alot of games where you have to play the top tiers to realistically do anything.

**edit**

Oh, and just because you mentioned it viers, and everybody lives on everyword "he" says, go ask m2k what he thinks about Doc. He'll say the exact same thing. It's because PEOPLE ****ING PLAY ALL THE CHARACTERS THE SAME, WHETHER IT CAN REALLY BE DONE OR NOT. FOR CHARACTERS WHERE IT CANT BE DONE, IT HURTS THEM SO BAD.


 

ranmaru

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 10, 2008
Messages
13,297
Switch FC
SW-0654 7794 0698
I don't understand how doc is a bit higher than Ganon in tiers, but I just don't do well agaisnt them, although I'm pretty sure I just need to learn the Ganon match up a little more.
 

Dogysamich

The Designated Hype Man!
BRoomer
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Messages
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Warner Robins, Georgia
*sigh*
No, see. The way a tierlist works isnt off of who beats who above them. When you look at high and top tiers, you generally assume that they will have even-to-good matchups below them, but once you start getting down past that, placement on tierlists has to start involving how they do against people below them.

Meaning, ganon isnt lower than doc because he has worse matchups than doc against the people above him, you have to start considering the people BELOW them. How does ganon do against mario? The Links? Pikachu?

Again, because of how people think around here (that you have to play top 4 or jiggs), that gets lost in translation alot. The tierlist isnt just based off of "Ganon loses to everybody above him." Oh hell no, Ganon's got a much better matchup against Marth than Doc ever will. Doc vs Ganon is pretty much even imo. People act like the other characters dont even exist, it's just odd.

Offtopic to everything, granted peach has a hard time against the characters above her, she has a hard time against some characters below her, and she can have an even harder time against characters way below her. I still honestly believe Peach's worst matchup is Y.Link, but nobody will ever believe it until either Y.Link's step up or people start playing Y.Link specifically against Peach.

For the record, I never have and probably never will have anything to do with making the tierlist. That's just how things go. Ya kinda gotta consider EVERYTHING YOU CAN SEE IN THE COMPETITIVE SENSE.
 

otg

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 9, 2007
Messages
4,489
Location
On my 5th 4 Loko and still ****** you.
I agree that the mentality of the smash community is skewed. I hate trying to talk to matchups with people, and I hear things like "what? how can doc get grabs with that ****ty grab range? how can doc get hits in with that ****ty range etc etc etc". Evidently people don't know how to read there opponents, because I was getting grabs on Jman, PC and other top players in my area. I still got *****, but that doesn't mean it's impossible, it's just the gap in skill.

I dunno, I flip flop on this issue all the time. One second I think Doc's a low tier, next you see someone like Kage ****** face and you reconsider. Doc's need to step it up if we want to prove to people that he is above Samus in tiers, and it's sad that me yedi and Roman didn't have a legit Doc conference to try and improve his metagame.
 

Desh

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 9, 2007
Messages
807
Location
CanadiaVille
I got this awesome U-air>U-air> F-Smash combo on my brother's Falcon today. Felt so pro.
good shi

Guah! That's pretty ballin. Juggled like a Fox.
hai dogy

Whoa!!!

I had to double take at Skler's location status. I hope she knows you're there. O_o
hai mike, thanks for the VN, if you see this, im reminding you to check out nabari no ou ! XD

Did someone summon the green wall of text?!?!?!

__

I seriously think it can happen, not because of "being a doc fanboy" (cause im actually not, I would have no problem dropping doc for my falco in a flash if i felt it'd really get my job accomplished), but because I seriously think it can be done.

The thing is, there has yet to be a doc who is flat out that good. Period. None. Bob money was good, but he wasnt THAT good. (No slam to bob, im just stating facts here).

The reason why people say it cant be done is because Smash is a real cookie cutting community. "The only way it can be done is if you play one of the elite 4 or jiggs and hop to it." I mean ****, yeah it works like that, if everybody plays the same. Which is why everybody is apparently losing to the same thing (M2K, jiggs, etc, etc). But the cookie cutting is extreme in smash. Down to everybody tends to play every character basically the same way. Always looking to get in and make the combo videos out of people.

I swear to god I'll shut my mouth when I see Jwong playing like, any game with Sagat and rushing the everlasting **** out of top people and winning. I will. But it's kind-of the same idea, some characters just flat out cant be played the same.

But like, "Doc doesnt have the range to beat marth?" Pfft. That kinda illudes to yet another thing I dont understand about smash. Why the **** is it in smash that 6-4 is a bad matchup? I mean, it's possible to argue Doc/Marth being 7-3, but that's a hard arguement to drive. "Doc doesnt have the range." Somebody doesnt really know what range is, because like everybody else, they cookie cut. News Flash: Doc has more range than marth. It's just that when Marth stays in his best range and does everything right, he can pretty much shut Doc down. But no, people just look at "Marth has a long disjointed hitbox and Doc has ****ty range." -rolls eyes- Pills? Maybe? Do people realize Marth HAS TO initially approach? I mean, dealing with pills isnt really a problem with Marth, but once you learn how to look at the grand scheme of things you realize that Marth initially has to approach Doc or Doc can put him in defense as he comes in.

[smashrant]
"But Doc cant beat marth's defense." Well if Doc, as well as apparently every other character, cant beat marth's defense ever, than Smash is really a ****tier game the communitiy realizes. I mean, people are starting to come around to some of the faults now that Jiggs is lurking around. But seriously, in the past few weeks i've been doing alot of practice on how to read people and learning about general fighting game info (which contrary to what the smash community as a whole will say, it helps a SH**TON in smash. A SH**TON.) Seriously. I know melee isnt the greatest game ever, I personally just know better; but if people really want to claim melee as "the greatest game ever", then they're gunna kinda need to realize alot of things. It's interesting how many things have flown under the radar for years. [/smashrant]

But I mean, with doc vs marth. I dont know how many times I've told a Doc how to beat a Marth, and how many times I've told a Marth how to beat a Doc. More-of-than-not, upon telling the Doc player, he'll go in actually make a big improvement in the matchup, or start winning. The marth on the other hand wont have any for the longest. That's even if they take the advice. One of the reasons because Doc players dont really have anything to cookie cut, so for them to be good they actually have to consider a bunch of possibilities, whether they really like it or not. We dont have better. Straight up. If anybody ever gives me any advice that really sounds worth a ****, I have no choice but to consider it. Bob$ cant answer all my questions, no Doc can. But marths? They copy playstyle all ****ing day, but they dont understand what really has to happen. It's really scary how quick they are to give up their advantage.

For the record, I really dont care if somebody knows how to beat a character, they still have to 1) ****ing practice the motions and reads, and 2) actually do them and not do the bad things. I just went to the Peach boards and basically gave them everything they'll really need to know to ever beat a Doc. In all actuallity, until Docs (me included, dear god me included) start playing the matchup "like it should be", Peach players dont even need to know half of the stuff I told them.

All in all, unless melee is really a crappy game that the smash community wont fess up to, then it can be done. Somebody or some people need to step up. There are not alot of games where you have to play the top tiers to realistically do anything.

**edit**

Oh, and just because you mentioned it viers, and everybody lives on everyword "he" says, go ask m2k what he thinks about Doc. He'll say the exact same thing. It's because PEOPLE ****ING PLAY ALL THE CHARACTERS THE SAME, WHETHER IT CAN REALLY BE DONE OR NOT. FOR CHARACTERS WHERE IT CANT BE DONE, IT HURTS THEM SO BAD.


dogy stop making me play doc again more lol <3


oovideogamegodoo (6:15:27 PM): doc is
oovideogamegodoo (6:15:28 PM): so
oovideogamegodoo (6:15:29 PM): under
oovideogamegodoo (6:15:30 PM): RATED
oovideogamegodoo (6:15:34 PM): cuz EVERYONE SUX WITH HIM


ktnx bye.
 

Dogysamich

The Designated Hype Man!
BRoomer
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Messages
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how often do you move out and how often do you throw pills?

They're inversely proportional to how bad the matchup is. Cause well, jiggs is like capfal, she has to be next to you to do anything.

So if you keep running in, you keep giving jiggs a chance.

That's not to say you can just stay away from jiggs the entire match, you have to go in at some point to get the kill. But why do you want to go in more than you have to when mistakes can be punished with death by jiggs?


 

Desh

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 9, 2007
Messages
807
Location
CanadiaVille
cuz im a man
and i does what i feel like to
I DONT FEAR DEATH LOLOOOL
DEATH FEARZZ MEEEE. >_>
no not really

jiggs isnt a hard match up at all,
spam pills, make it hard for her to get near you,
when she does an arial, i just uair her or bair or something lol,
then you have your choice of throw fair, fsmash, dsmash, fair =D
 

ranmaru

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 10, 2008
Messages
13,297
Switch FC
SW-0654 7794 0698
cuz im a man
and i does what i feel like to
I DONT FEAR DEATH LOLOOOL
DEATH FEARZZ MEEEE. >_>
no not really

jiggs isnt a hard match up at all,
spam pills, make it hard for her to get near you,
when she does an arial, i just uair her or bair or something lol,
then you have your choice of throw fair, fsmash, dsmash, fair =D
I fear death... but I... am not careful. D:
 

Dogysamich

The Designated Hype Man!
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Messages
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so man, here I am at pb&j's house after the first day of final round. I did aight. Got like.... 5th I think? I dunno.

Uh... yeah, I got a few things to say. When I get home i've really got some interesting things to talk about.

I found a really ****in big hole in all of my general strategy that I have to fix, for the love of my life I dont use SH u.air for defense and it's a liability like no other. Dear god.

But, a few things I'm gunna touch on, whether with little "bricks of green text" or in a "wall of green text" when I get home.

1) Doing "America" by itself is not really good. Your opponent pretty much has to be asleep at the wheel or flat out scared to go near the ledge for you to pull it out. However....

2) Doing a Capedashed America can be pretty frickin beastly. Especially if you catch somebody tryin to at you on the ledge is pretty ****in amazing. I managed to catch a few people with a capedashed American F.air. It. Was. Epic.

3) After yet another pure coincience, I wound up playing a Luigi and my first Doc ditto in the same set. Against Green Mario. Somehow fate was on my side and I squeaked a win out there. ...

4) But dear god he came back at my *** in losers. Doc vs Mario *rolls eyes* oh man sometimes you have to look like a chump in that matchup. It kinda sucks to get u.air juggled and be like "Well, I kinda HAVE to DI into this cause I dont want to DI out into his on-point edgeguard."

There's more coming.


 

SpruceTengu

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 10, 2007
Messages
269
Location
Eastern MA
doc vs jiggs is sooooooooooo bad lmfao. every time i fight one i end up just spamming fairs and dsmashes

Same, though I include pillspam in a desperate attempt to limit her movement. @@

I was going to ask about better ways to deal with jiggs, but I can't imagine there are any consistant combos or solutions for such a flexible character beyond the usual good spacing, keeping your distance with pills, and having a **** sharp Fair to cut down when damage is high.

Also, dogy, I'm not so sharp with crazy slang. What is an "America"? 0_O'
 

otg

Smash Master
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Messages
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On my 5th 4 Loko and still ****** you.
doc vs jiggs is sooooooooooo bad lmfao. every time i fight one i end up just spamming fairs and dsmashes
Probably cause you suck at the matchup, Doc goes even if not has a slight advantage when you play it right. Spruce, I beat Jesse pretty free the last time we played, you probably don't handle the matchup right either.

Dogy: Uair is one of Doc's best defensive moves. I remember doing this about a year ago in the first video I posted and you were laughing at me over AIM about how dumb I looked randomly Uairing lol. Nah but seriously, Uair is a sick defense move, comes out fast has good priority and come potentially lead into an offensive juggle depending on your opponents DI.

When I have some time later I'm going to do a full wall of text about the Doc Jiggly matchup. It's one that people SHOULD NOT be having a hard time with.
 

otg

Smash Master
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Jul 9, 2007
Messages
4,489
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On my 5th 4 Loko and still ****** you.
Alright, here we go. Doc v. Jiggly

Jiggly has two styles of play; campy and spacey, or rushdown status. Lucky enough for you, Doc's pills pretty much stop Jiggly from camping and force her to rush you down. And once, lucky enough for Doc, she isn't Captain Falcon who can go from one side of the stage to another in a second.

This means, you should at all times be pill spamming Jigglypuff and running the **** away. Any time you approach Jigglypuff, or make the first move, you are giving her a chance to **** you, and she can **** you very easily if you give her the chance. Jiggly has absurd priority, best recovery in the game, instant kill move, W.O.P. antics etc etc, so you gotta be smart.

Here are a few rules to avoid getting rested:
- Don't roll behind her if she gets too close, the only safe Rest combo she has on you is utilt-> rest, and she should NEVER get that off unless you somehow let her get close to you, or you roll behind her. Just don't do it.
- Mix up your reactions when she knocks you onto platforms. Her tech chase rests and OOS shields are really good, so if you become predictable you're asking to die.
- NEVER attack her shield with a laggy move unless you want her to rest you OOS.

Ok, now with regards to pill spam. Yes Jiggly can cut through pills if she spaces herself right. But who cares? The whole point is to force Jiggly to approach YOU, let her make the first move. This is where she is vulnerable in that she has to wait for your reaction before she can make one of her own, so just don't let her have it. If a few pills hit here and there, enjoy it. Pills do roughly 6-10% I think, so even getting 4-5 pills is half of Jigglys stock.

If she misses a rest, cape cape cape cape cape cape cape cape fsmash. Don't be a hero, you're one of the few characters that gets a guaranteed kill when she misses a rest.

Now, you've pill spammed her alot and now shes coming in, and she's close. The trick here, is to space yourself out well and use the right moves to POKE her. No combo video status, it's not possible. Just poke her with utilt or uair if she is above you, ftilt or bair if she is in front of you or behind you. The second you get a few hits in, run the **** away and keep spamming.

Getting the KO: dthrow-> Fair connects a large range of percents. What percents exactly? I dont know, and frankly you shouldn't care. If we get the exact percents out there, we won't be able to get lucky and get free KO's when we shouldn't have. I would say it starts roughly around 60 or so, and goes a lot higher than you would expect. Usmash KO's guaranteed around 90%, but it doesn't have the best range and it has some wind down lag so it's not safe but this doesn't mean you shouldn't try. One of the best ways to connect Usmash is to follow it with a pill and WD in while Jiggly is trying to outspace you. Jab -> usmash might work too, never tried it. Regular fair, dsmash and fsmash all work, but they aren't as reliable as throw-> fair and usmash. You can try trading hits with Fsmash, that works occasionally.

Recovering. omg, this is the part that I think frustrates Doc players the most, and with good reason. Jiggly can edgeguard Doc very easily but just casually jumping out with pretty much any attack. However, be grateful that you're recovery at least has options, if Fox or Falco has to use there upB to recover they might as well be dead. Mix up how you recover and in what ORDER as much as possible. Mix up whether you try to recover above the stage, or below the stage. Believe it or not, recovering backwards is useful because you can Bair your way back. I wouldn't suggest using PTP too often if she is close to you, that's asking to get a nair, fair or bair as you recover from wind down lag, but once again don't feel afraid to use it. Don't be afraid to UpB early to catch her by surprise, the Up B has high knockback and can catch players off guard.

One thing I feel I HAVE to absolutely mention while recovering against Jiggly, is how effective the cape is. The cape not only turns Jiggly around, but because of how light she is, she travels VERY far away from you when you use it on her. If she jumps while you cape her, she will travel RIDICULOUSLY high above you, giving you potentially enough space to recover safely. If you space the cape right, the only way I can see Jiggly's beating it is by predicting it and using Bair away from you so the cape turns them around and into you.

One last note, Up B can KO Jiggly. BUTTTT only if it hits ONCE. Doc's Up B is a multi hitting move, but certain times only one of the hits will connect. The Up B has HUGE knockback, and it's hard to see this coming meaning they will probably not DI it correctly. I KOed a Jiggly player on Yoshi's at 0% as they were trying to edgeguard ME with this. It's not something we can produce reliably, bit it is possible.

Alright I'm done ranting, I hope this helps people/.
 

Dogysamich

The Designated Hype Man!
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Messages
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aight. First off. OTG. Dont make me do work. That's a double post and this is yours and everybody's warning. I dont wanna be the bad guy, and im allowed to warn.

___

Now for real ****.

Im sittin over here on pb&j's laptop again. Just got knocked out of SC4 to some bull****. Some on my part, some on the others. It is what it is.

___

Um, ill post some pointers about jiggs later, im actually gettin bugged to play now.

Quick shout about u.air, yeah. I guess i stopped using it for some dumb reason. THat's why i ****ing keep asking you guys to SAY STUFF ABOUT MY VIDS INSTEAD OF BEING LIKE "omg dogy wow." I do some dumb **** too. Lack of u.air for defense is dumb. So yeah. I gotta go back to the lab when I get home.

Right now, im about to get at Yoshido in some friendlies.

GUAH!!!


 

ranmaru

Smash Legend
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Messages
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Ok, more uairs, got it. I'll try to practice my sh uairs . : D

HAhaha I'm sure he will later tho. :]
 

otg

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 9, 2007
Messages
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On my 5th 4 Loko and still ****** you.
Well, the way you use Uair defensively is AFTER you've gotten hit and are in the air, FF uair works as a nice lil combo breaker. use Uair while falling from platforms, edgecancelling, after a FH aerial, etc etc I like pretending I'm Cap Fal and doing FH Uair, FF Uair against characters who have bad OOS options .... like Falcon ironically. Also, FFuair -> utilt is a great way to get people away from you, and also pushes people away if they keep their shield up.
 

ranmaru

Smash Legend
Joined
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Messages
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OH I see, interesting. Also glad you put that stuff up about Jiggs, it'll help.
 

Dogysamich

The Designated Hype Man!
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***** at you? Why the **** would I complain about you sharing your information? I mean for christ's sake, that's what I've been wanting people to do forever. I keep saying it, we're all obviously not doing some things right, cause we're all not winning. So if we sit in our little corners with our ****, it aint gunna work.

Im not going to be a hypocrite, though; I do tend to hold some things I find out. But that's mainly because I have to go actually try it on real people before I put it out here. I REALLY hate putting out false information.

So no, I might discuss and debate stuff that people on here, but I never get mad. Unless it's blatently dumb.

____

Catching up on a few things.

"America" = Ledgehop -> Waveland off the stage -> DJ. I kinda coined the word for it because i've seen it forever and I've never heard a name for it (Apparently it's actually the clod zero or something after him. I havent heard it enough to believe it) Besides, it's so kool that Capfal actually has "American Knees" now. XD

But anyway, yeah. An America by itself kinda sucks because doc doesnt fall fast enough. Really, it's because you cant FF fast enough (same reason why ledgehop f.air completely and utterly blows except for punishing up+b lag). But if you can catch somebody swinging at you and do a capedash into america, oh dear god. XD

___

Dogy Blog. Part One. Lol

Doc vs Mario. And this will apply for Doc vs Doc, and this kinda goes into into any situation where it can happen. First and foremost, a f.air out of nowhere should never be used. I kinda started saying this, but after playing greenmario, I'm a real believer now. It's just too slow. Spacing it is ok, but like, unless you're looking to land short, you should get cut off.

With that being said, the amount of f.airs you throw should be inversely propotional to the amount of zoning they do. You're not going to beat zoning with it. Straight up. It takes some horrid reaction time to not stop it. So the same applies to you, if you're not going to zone to stop it from coming, that **** is coming. .... No i didnt get f.air *****, but ****it GM wouldnt let me have my day.

(For the record, we kinda did our trademark combos on each other. He wrecked my **** with u.air juggles, and I hit him with the MLG combo twice. His combo is kooler than mine. :( )

__

But that was my 2nd loss.

First one was against Wes again. But this **** wasnt pretty. Just... -shakes head- guah.

I think i've found a big problem in my game lately in that I try to move too **** fast with Doc. I try to create speed that doesnt exist and it ****s me up. Most people call it "being limited", but hell, it happens all the time anytime. I ****in do it with fox. XD

__

I dunno, I guess this is turning into a blog more than useful ****.

*thinks*

My transitions blow from strat to strat. And what the big problem really is is my transition from long range (pills) to mid/close range. I always continue to throw pills and... kinda get ***** for it sometimes. That's something to keep in mind.

It's not even really a spacing thing as much as it is litterally transitioning away from it. *shrug* That's just something I get from not getting to actually play people. Something else I get to work into my practice.

___

I think I know how to start getting more u.air juggles (or getting some period) I have to work some **** out.

Im thinkin 2 things.

First one is, well, u.air defense. I think it works, i have to... try it on people *looks up to see some people playing melee* I'll try it in a few minutes. If not, I'll probably have 2morrow since most of us are comin back anyway.

Second one, I'll hold to myself and get back to you on (see, I'm a hypocrite.) I think it'll work, but I'd rather try it and be wrong myself rather than having everybody ****in up.

___

I think that's all I got for now. Listening to some RED BOOTS on youtube. I ****ing love this track.

Ima hop on the sticks when it gets done.

 

otg

Smash Master
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On my 5th 4 Loko and still ****** you.
Dogy do you have anything else to add to the Doc v Jiggly matchup? I feel like I covered mostly everything, and yes this is stuff that works on humans. I have never lost to a Jiggly in tournament, but than again I've never fought someone of Mango's caliber so who knows how much of this is actually practical.
 

Dogysamich

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i kinda skimmed through your post. Im not really too keen on alot of reading when I'm not confined to my own room (Now I see why people hate my **** green walls of text. Sorry)

__

Lets see. Few things.

1) you hit the big part about not going in. You realistically NEVER have to go in on jiggs unless you want to kill. The way I see the matchup now, you never want to go in unless you know you're going to put jiggs in shield, or jiggs is in shield. Yeah, that's counter to how 90% of the Smash community likes to play, but like OTG was saying, anytime you run next to jiggs and mess up, you run the liablity of getting punished with death. So if you can get punished with death, you obviously want to cut out those chances as much as possible. I dont like standing next to death, I dont know about you.

2) I dont think jiggs has ANY rest combos on doc. I could be wrong, I have to check u.tilt rest and u.air rest. I know you can get TRICKED into some rest (like those 2, and n.air rest. Soft has rope-a-dope'd my *** into n.air rest so many times, lol). But I dont think it's worse. But...

3) Doc's one of the 3 characters that can basically punish a miss rest with death. (The other 2 being fox and mario). You get that through jiggs' head, you wont see alot of rests to begin with. one thing i found out while talkin to HMW thursday night is that, if you react to jiggs' missing a rest in a timely manner, you can get 5 capes instead of 4.

4) Jiggs' edgeguard vs Doc actually is nowhere near as bad as people make it out to be, and here's why. Doc is one of the few characters who can actually defend himself vs WoP. I've honestly never thought of cape (that sounds pretty ballin), but what I normally do is if they try to come in too early, I d.air through them and keep on moving through. On the other side of edgeguarding, I dont put alot of effort into edgeguarding jiggs just because i'd rather just force jiggs to come through my spam rather than run the risk of getting pounded.

Ok, now Im about to let you guys in on some new ways to **** up a resting jiggs.

First and foremost, like I said, you can get 5 capes instead of 4 if you act in a timely manner.

1) Actually, you can get 6, but jiggs will be able to move before you can do ANYTHING. However, if you're pretty sure jiggs is going to shield... you can get a grab, some hits, dunk.

2) Speaking of grab hits dunk, that's a more damaging way to punish jiggs. 5 capes, grab, 2 hits, dunk. 75% if i remember right. So you're like, going to kill from 25% or so.

3) This one's another "grimmy trick" to put in the books. Do 4 or 5 capes, WAVEDASH BEHIND THEM AND F.SMASH/D.SMASH (f.smash/d.smash depending on how fast you think their reactoin time is). The purpose is to either get them closer to the edge or to **** up their DI. Grimmy. (you also could get a grab off of this if you wanted to do a b.throw or something.)

Annnnnnnnnd that's what's hot in the streets.

WE're getting kicked out for 2night. Gunna come back and watch a ****ton of SF4 2morrow and play some melee. YAYHUZZ.




 

Dogysamich

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Oh man, im at home, gunna discuss some things 2morrow (read: today)

But I have to share this. This **** is hilarious.

___



This was the Street Fighter 4 bracket from FRXII. "The Power Bracket", as I named it.

No, that's not a camera trick, that bracket is literally taller than me.
 

SpruceTengu

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That. Bracket. Is. Awesome. Hey, at least it's not blacker than you?

Anyway, to second vulcan's question... MLG combo?
 

Dogysamich

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Oh ****, sorry.

MLG Combo = F.air -> F.air -> F.air with Doc. (Cause well, the exact same combo with other characters have different names, lol)

I call it the MLG combo cause, well, that's the first place I ever did it. I actually went back and named it like, a year later, but I remember doing that to people in pools. Like, I didnt know about u.air juggling and u.air -> regrab and all that back then. I remember hitting somebody with a f.air at like, 0% and saw them floating and was like "****... ima do it again, they wont see it." *wamp* "... OH I CAN DO THAT AGAIN!" *wamp*.

And now That's just... kool.

But now I know how hard it is to actually land a **** f.air on people. :(
 

otg

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On my 5th 4 Loko and still ****** you.
MLG combo is hilarious cause it probably shouldn't work but it does lol. Imagine if Ganon could Kobe people across the stage? Doc is faster so he can sort of pull it off, and even if he can't, it's at least a pressure mindgame.
 

Dogysamich

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F.air -> f.air works at low%. 3 probably shouldnt (I honestly dont know). It has to be 3 to be the MLG Combo though. 2 is just f.air -> f.air.

And ganon's f.air -> f.air combo is the Chris Brown Combo. XD

Mario's F.air -> f.air is called the Cat Mario Combo, named after that dumb *** Cat Mario game (if you havent played it, you should. You'll get mind ****ed.)
 

Desh

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placed 3rd in doubles this weekend D:
13th in singles >_> i forfeit a match i could have won because i didnt feel like dealing with a grumpy campy fox on corneria =/
but w.e i lost the set 1-1 i guess O_o
 

Dogysamich

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Oh that ****'s easy. Unplug their controller.

You think i'm playing? You find me any line of any rule that says you cant reach down and unplug your opponent's controller and you'll have a combo breaker.

Until then. AWW YEAH!

O_O
 

ranmaru

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SW-0654 7794 0698
F.air -> f.air works at low%. 3 probably shouldnt (I honestly dont know). It has to be 3 to be the MLG Combo though. 2 is just f.air -> f.air.

And ganon's f.air -> f.air combo is the Chris Brown Combo. XD

Mario's F.air -> f.air is called the Cat Mario Combo, named after that dumb *** Cat Mario game (if you havent played it, you should. You'll get mind ****ed.)
Yeah I played Cat mario, haha. Too good.
 

KirbyKaze

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placed 3rd in doubles this weekend D:
13th in singles >_> i forfeit a match i could have won because i didnt feel like dealing with a grumpy campy fox on corneria =/
but w.e i lost the set 1-1 i guess O_o
You also went Peach instead of Doc on Corneria like a noob.

Like, seriously. What did you think he was going to do when you clicked Peach? Rambo into the combo of 10000 D-smashes?

:laugh:
 
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