Max?
Smash Champion
The only reason I Dsmash shields is when I'm doing jab mix ups and I guess/react incorrectly.
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Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!
- Thread starter otg
- Start date
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
There are definitely frame advantage situations that make it a smart thing to do. But I'm talking about people who literally mash dat out whenever you're up in their face. 
Niko45
Smash Master
Pretty sure I've experienced spacings with Max where dsmash on shield was completely unpunishable with Marth. Fair OOS wouldn't connect and WD oos to anything took too long.
Max?
Smash Champion
Maybe you were lightshielding niko? I know Icies can WD oos punish Doc's dsmash on shield, maybe Marth's doesn't go far enough?
marth def goes far enough, he prolly was lightshielding
@chivalruse, its because dsmash is what we do when we don't what else to do... or atleast thats how it is for me lol
hold down and spam cstick down all day
@chivalruse, its because dsmash is what we do when we don't what else to do... or atleast thats how it is for me lol
hold down and spam cstick down all day
Max?
Smash Champion
If Dsmash does push Marth back far enough that sh Fair OOS can't connect, that's a free ftilt or something, so it's def something to look out for.
Niko45
Smash Master
No I never ever light shield. I feel pretty close to 100% that you can space for fair oos to miss. WD oos maybe I'm slow but idk I never find I get the grab there in time.
Max?
Smash Champion
Doc's dmash is deceptively long. If you space it at the very end of the feet, Marth might not be able to follow up.
stelzig
Smash Lord
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gaTGY9hn48#t=0m16s
Doctor Mario is a great gay, not just for doctors, but for everyone.
Doctor Mario is a great gay, not just for doctors, but for everyone.
i just tested it, unless doc spaces it right in your face/shield, marths wd oos grab is too slow. Doc can sidestep to dodge the grab
so yu were right niko... for once
so yu were right niko... for once
Max?
Smash Champion
Good to know, spam Dsmash whenever Marth is ****** you.
The matchup is like 60:40 Doc now.
The matchup is like 60:40 Doc now.
Shroomed
Smash Master
Doc ***** marth 70-30
I have yet to face a really tough marth aside from Pewpewu.
I have yet to face a really tough marth aside from Pewpewu.
boss8
Smash Hero
idk shroomed...marth got dat spacing...and dat fair...mad gay IMO...
Rostigalen
Smash Journeyman
Marth isn't that hard compared to other top tiers IMO. I have a bit limited Marth experience compared to...say Fox, but I have a better time facing a Marth nevertheless.
Max?
Smash Champion
I think Marth wins, but by how much is questionable. Niko is really the only Marth main that can beat me on the EC, I've ***** every other Marth I've played, so I really wanna see him vs. you shroomed.
I've also come to realize that all of Doc's top tier matchups are all roughly the same difficulty, probably like 55-45 or 60-40. I'm currently of the belief that he can beat anyone with proper play.
I've also come to realize that all of Doc's top tier matchups are all roughly the same difficulty, probably like 55-45 or 60-40. I'm currently of the belief that he can beat anyone with proper play.
Shroomed
Smash Master
Everyone except ultra campy sheik.
That's seriously stupid. Campy fox you can cape his lasers back to him and he's just easier to catch IMO than sheik.
That's seriously stupid. Campy fox you can cape his lasers back to him and he's just easier to catch IMO than sheik.
Smooth Criminal
Da Cheef
I was gonna say something stupid about projectiles until I saw the words "easier to catch."
Good luck trying to get in on Sheik. It is not easy.
Smooth Criminal
Good luck trying to get in on Sheik. It is not easy.
Smooth Criminal
Max?
Smash Champion
I play vs. nothing but campy *insert character here*. Tristate, where *****s are gay as ****.
Actually no, the only person who approaches me is PC, and thats just made me hate fighting Fox LOL.
Actually no, the only person who approaches me is PC, and thats just made me hate fighting Fox LOL.
Shroomed
Smash Master
All of EC is campy but that's what makes them easier for me.
I hate playing "turbo joey."
Aka all up in your face without ever missing an L cancel so you can't really do ****.
I hate playing "turbo joey."
Aka all up in your face without ever missing an L cancel so you can't really do ****.
Max?
Smash Champion
Yeah, thats how PC plays, and its gay as ****. ***** just keeps hitting you, you can't **** up.
VGmasta
Smash Lord
Lol, i wish.
That's a hell naw.
Agreed.
And did y'all know that Marth's up-tilt is absolutely unbeatable from above. And it kills Doc at like 100% on most neutrals if it tippers.
Agreed. Aggressive Foxes are nightmarish. There's pretty much nothin' Doc can do to punish good shield pressure. Upsmash OoS is too slow and Up-B OoS is tricky because you have to time the input in between the shieldstun of all of Fox's attacks. Like sometimes, the Up-B won't register at all if you input the move while still in shieldstun.
Plus the shine outranges Doc's grab and Fox's n-air is too good.
silentSWAG
Smash Lord
What should I do with doc to punish side step
VGmasta
Smash Lord
I'd try timing a SH f-air, or charging a up-smash or f-smash.
I wish I could time a grab, but it's too unreliable.
boss8
Smash Hero
silentSWAG
Smash Lord
I have trouble timing all that so I was thinking a down smash would of worked cause it had two hitboxes but that was unreliable. Is there any move that will just hit him out of it easily like Sheiks dsmash
VGmasta
Smash Lord
If you're looking for an attack that has a hitbox out long enough to punish a spotdodge (regardless of when you start the attack), you probably won't find one using Dr Mario. None of Doc's hitboxes stay out long enough to punish a spotdodge without some sort of timing or prediction. Sheik (along with most of the cast) has invincibility on the spotdodge that last 14 frames (frames 2-15) and the spotdodge animation lasts 22 frames total. So Sheik is only vulnerable for 7 frames after the spotdodge invincibility runs out.
Doc's dsmash is unreliable because the hit is only out for 2 frames on each side (frames 5-6 on the front side). So it's really easy to mis-time the instant d-smash too early when trying to punish a spotdodge. Doc's f-smash hitbox is out for 5 frames which is a not much easier to land on a spotdodger. Both of those hitboxes (the f-smash and d-smash) end before Sheik's spotdodge invincibility is over, which leaves Doc completely vulnerable afterwards. So you'd have to do a delayed attack of some sort (like charging/delaying a smash attack/aerial).
I like spacing SH f-airs. Since Doc's f-air hitbox lasts from frames 18-22 and Sheik would be vulnerable on frames 15-22, the worst that could happen is that Doc's f-air hits after the spotdodge is over and the vulnerability is over. That probably won't give Sheik enough time to defend herself from Doc's f-air for spotdodging. But Doc's SH f-air will probably NOT hit DURING invincibility for Sheik's spotdodge because the hit comes out a lot later than Doc's d-smash. The only way Doc's f-air would strike invincibility during the spotdodge is if Sheik spotdodges really late.
I know I just typed up a long wall of arithmetic here. But if you couldn't exactly interpret what I just posted, just run up to the spotdodge and do a SH instant f-air (WITHOUT FASTFALLING). It punishes most spotdodging in my experiences. So just practice that until you get better at timing other spotdodge punishers (charged smash attacks, grabs)
You could also try SH n-air without fastfalling or SH d-air, but those are awful because those attacks don't do much damage and are really easy to punish with crouchcancel/shieldgrab.
Max?
Smash Champion
I'm pretty close to adding Ricky to my ignore list. The mentality you have about using Doc/approaching his matchups is the wrong one, and it explains why you think he's bad and most likely why you aren't progressing as a player. If you have no faith in this character, and just talk about how ****ed he is in certain situations (where pretty much EVERY character is ****ed, and not just Doc) as if it was exclusive to Doc alone, then you will never get anywhere.
As for punishing sidesteps, you can grab them, Dsmash is good, usmash is good, anything really. It just depends on the situation, who you are fighting, their percent, their stage positioning, etc. These are things you learn just from playing extensively.
As for punishing sidesteps, you can grab them, Dsmash is good, usmash is good, anything really. It just depends on the situation, who you are fighting, their percent, their stage positioning, etc. These are things you learn just from playing extensively.
VGmasta
Smash Lord
Ignore list?! Man, no one in here gets it. I guess I'll have to take an alternative approach to prove my point. But, I see where you goin' with this OTG and hear you loud and clear.
As for punishing sidesteps, those options you listed are all absolutely viable. All that junk is situational. I just assumed silentSWAG was in a "situation" where he had difficulty landing the dsmashes and grabs because he was inputting too early. In that situation, he could just replace the dsmash with a spaced f-air and it would probably land. And it's tougher to punish a spaced-fair (as long as it's L-cancelled) than a d-smash or something that missed because it hit invincibility.
Shroomed
Smash Master
I like to grab if my dsmash isn't going to kill them.
I think the best thing you could ever do as doc is bait a getup attack and **** them off the punish.
I think the best thing you could ever do as doc is bait a getup attack and **** them off the punish.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
More like I'm shielding to keep Doc players honest about d-smashing randomly. I feel like at times they're just doing it because they don't know anything better to do. Lulz.
Max?
Smash Champion
That would be the Yedi approach.
BigWenz
Smash Ace
thats because ur icies. u may be the only character that can actually punish a dsmash on shield. All other characters cant really do much directly out of shield to punish it so why not throw it out randomly? Unless of course a doc dsmashs a shield point blank in which case im wondering why the doc didn just grab.
Max?
Smash Champion
M2 and Luigi can probably punish Doc's Dsmash OOS too. WE'RE SCREWED NOW BOYS
BigWenz
Smash Ace
haha. i dont know enough bout m2, but and dont quote me on this but i think luigi actually slides to far if u dsmash his shield for him to do anything that u cant avoid.
Max?
Smash Champion
Oh true, didn't even take that into account, just assumed since they both have really good WDs they could get in.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Sheik can wd oos and grab Doc's d-smash. There goes half of your strategy.
Winston
Smash Master
Characters that can punish dsmash on shield:
Fox
Marth
Sheik
Luigi
Falcon
Doc/Mario
ICs
and Im sure there are others.... some of those timings are a bit tight maybe, but dont rely on it. Seriously
Fox
Marth
Sheik
Luigi
Falcon
Doc/Mario
ICs
and Im sure there are others.... some of those timings are a bit tight maybe, but dont rely on it. Seriously
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
I bet Falco can wd oos -> shine Doc for a d-smash on shield. It would be a technical feat though.
Niko45
Smash Master
Winston, how does Marth punish doc dsmash on shield?