Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!

[KirbyKaze]

hardly

Unless you are Sheik or Jigglypuff, grabbing the edge is bad.

 

[Vulcan55]

Is this Jona guy for real?

 

[ssbbFICTION]

Actually I'm finding it fairly useful through experimentation. I sorta stole it from how HugS plays haha. And YES i'm pretty sure they are useful its just not the thing to use when your opponent is standing right next to u on the ground lol.

 

[VGmasta]

You gotta be kidding PC Jona, There are much worser projectiles. Look at how bad Mewtwo and Luigi have it with projectiles. And some characters are not even fortunate enough to have any projectile. At least doc gets a 8% damaging, mid distance projectile. Doc mario would be top tier if he could short hop pills without the special lag at the end of the jump, like Falco and his short hopped lasers.

 

[KirbyKaze]

He'd still be average speed, medium combo power, and awful in-combat range.

No way in hell he'd be top tier.

 

[Strong Badam]

he would be a lot better though rofl
8% damage pills coming out that fast?

but not top tier

 

[VGmasta]

He'd still be average speed, medium combo power, and awful in-combat range.

No way in hell he'd be top tier.

Ok maybe not top tier, but he'd definitely be high tier since he's almost high tier now. That no lag on the pill throws would change the way he could approach and he could tech chase a whole lot easier, and his edgeguarding would be better too. But giving him three times length for the Up+B and instant 14 damage for the N-air, plus 7 inches more on hitboxes would make him a "broken" tier, I mean he's already got that infamous cape.

 

[ssbbFICTION]

lol infinite edgeguards on falcon

EDIT: SUPER SHEET PPL SUPER SHEET lol

 

[otg]

Ok maybe not top tier, but he'd definitely be high tier since he's almost high tier now. That no lag on the pill throws would change the way he could approach and he could tech chase a whole lot easier, and his edgeguarding would be better too. But giving him three times length for the Up+B and instant 14 damage for the N-air, plus 7 inches more on hitboxes would make him a "broken" tier, I mean he's already got that infamous cape.

.... (>.>)

Why don't we just give him the ****ing shine while you are at it.

 

[VGmasta]

And think of Falco's laser rush, lasers to force the opponent to shield. Now if he expects the opponent to shield, wouldn't he grab and do a throw?! Now Falco does not punish that nicely with a throw like other characters. But when Doc lands a grab, look at how much more threatening that becomes, his back throw ***** and he can chaingrab almost everybody. So no lag pill rush, plus **** throw combo or instant Dsmashing says top tier potential IMO.

 

[otg]

Yeah too bad that this isn't the case. So why don't we stop speculating about what could've been and just deal?

 

[Dogysamich]

You gotta be kidding PC Jona, There are much worser projectiles. Look at how bad Mewtwo and Luigi have it with projectiles. And some characters are not even fortunate enough to have any projectile.

Wait.... what?

A chargeable, jagged path projectile that can easily be followed behind, kills, and in some situations sets up combos is worse than a pill.

That's like trying to tell somebody a thunderjolt is a bad projectile.

.... (>.>)

Why don't we just give him the ****ing shine while you are at it.

Im tellin you, give me mario's cape from brawl and ill be happy. I would love nothing more than to have a cape that f***ing flips controls, even momentarily.

 

[VGmasta]

Yeah, but Mewtwo can't approach with that thing being charged since it makes him stagger backwards upon projectile release. And can't you just crouch under his projectile?!

 

[TemPesT-]

but super sheet is too long to type and sounds dumb

and if we abbreviate super sheet it becomes ss, which is just confusing and stupid

so take your stupid semantics somewhere else

scrub

thx for getting my back.

<3 canada.

 

[P.C. Jona]

Unless you are Sheik or Jigglypuff, grabbing the edge is bad.

people fear marth at the edge
if you mess up, falcon will **** you at the edge across the stage
if theres a wall to walljump from its even easier and safer
fox, falco not so much because if the easy edgegaurd with the cape
falcon can reverse his up-b to recover atleast
peach can float and space fairs on your sheild and just drop back down to the edge again until you leave her alone

doc does not have the greatest edgeguarding game ever to be afraid of him
its good, but not scarier then having the top tiers, jiggs or peach edgegaurding you

Is this Jona guy for real?

ufc, real as it gets

You gotta be kidding PC Jona, There are much worser projectiles. Look at how bad Mewtwo and Luigi have it with projectiles. And some characters are not even fortunate enough to have any projectile. At least doc gets a 8% damaging, mid distance projectile. Doc mario would be top tier if he could short hop pills without the special lag at the end of the jump, like Falco and his short hopped lasers.

mewtwo's shadow ball *****
luigi's is pretty bad ok thats true
falcon has no projectile and he doesnt need it, if he had one, he would be broken
same with marth

doc has little arms and legs, it would still be little people, big world

 

[Dogysamich]

Yeah, but Mewtwo can't approach with that thing being charged since it makes him stagger backwards upon projectile release. And can't you just crouch under his projectile?!

No. Actually, the spacing for M2's shadowball is muuuuuuuch better than the spacing for doc's pills

Read: You're allowed to stand muuuuuch closer with shadowballs, and you can follow them from muuuuuch closer.

And can you duck them? You CAN, but the path of the shadowball is jagged, so you're rolling the dice when you do it. But i mean, that's half of smash anyways. XD

 

[ranmaru]

I wish I remembered if I asked about the Shbawd. Now I can't find the post. :[

 

[VGmasta]

True that, Dogy!

SHBAWD is hard, that's almost like trying to super wavedash with Samus. That I should probably practice, it's a **** edgeguard technique.

And UpB-ing pillaring Falcos is only the safest if you are under a platform that you can knock him onto. That way they can't punish you while you're in special lag. That's why I'd counterpick Battlefield or Dreamland vs. Falco!

 

[KirbyKaze]

people fear marth at the edge
if you mess up, falcon will **** you at the edge across the stage
if theres a wall to walljump from its even easier and safer
fox, falco not so much because if the easy edgegaurd with the cape
falcon can reverse his up-b to recover atleast
peach can float and space fairs on your sheild and just drop back down to the edge again until you leave her alone

doc does not have the greatest edgeguarding game ever to be afraid of him
its good, but not scarier then having the top tiers, jiggs or peach edgegaurding you

................

what?

soap said "grabbing the edge traps you"

you said "hardly" (i interpreted this as "no")

i said it's bad to grab the edge

your reply makes no sense

people fear marth at the edge because they let m2k grab them at the edge and gimp them. but if you actually space and wait and react for him to get up, you realize that he doesn't have perfect invincibility from the edge like sheik and space animals do with their ledgedash. so if you react properly...

fox and falco don't want to be holding the edge because they can die easily if they get pressured properly. they have a lot to lose there. they can do silly gimps, obviously, but their laser / dash dance / whatever games become less flexible with reduced space to abuse them.

sheik is different because shino stall has a hitbox, she has a perfect ledgedash, and all her ledgehop aerials regrab the edge so she can defend with them while refreshing invincibility. you can't really pressure her well.

puff has 10000000000 jumps.

peach is horrible if she's stuck on the edge, especially without a float, idk why people don't understand this. she has no good options coming back.

falcon is less bad but beyond gimmicky tricks he doesn't have a solid way back on.

 

[P.C. Jona]

wow its not even that hard
like super wavedash with samus? not even close

im sorry but all it is, is a back air really quick and a wavedash when you fall

the window to wavedash is pretty big compared to alot of other things

@ KK

my post basically said all the reasons why grabbing the edge isnt bad. it can be a good thing

 

[ranmaru]

Yeah not hard for me either, just a matter of my timing is all. :D I'm pretty tired of practicing by myself though, I wonder what else is there that I should expirement with, technically.

 

[Dogysamich]

Ya know, speaking of "use pills sparingly", glad this popped up instead of me having to dig through my s***.

I forgot that DJN actually knows how to space pills

 

[KirbyKaze]

@ jona

many of your points make no sense though.

for instance, peach floating to fair you to get you away and dropping down to regrab the edge. you do realize she doesn't get her float back when she grabs the edge, right? or do you mean float fair + jump offstage and then grab edge? because in the latter her lack of a good double jump is enough to make that plan pretty bad.

 

[P.C. Jona]

peach floating a fair on docs shield doc cant do crap
except like up out of shield but no one even does that

yea i know peach cant get her float back, and i guess thats a problem
but with the 3 seconds of float you get you can do 2 fairs and the doc will probably roll back idk
and have room to touch ground and get back

its too many if's and stuff
i just dont think doc can punish most characters holding on the edge trying to get back on the stage that bad

docs not that good, he cant cover all the options, it cant be that hard to get back up to a neutral position again

 

[KirbyKaze]

if she can force doc to roll or back off why would she bother grabbing the edge then if she can do it more effectively without it and without putting herself in harm's way

if she touches the edge she will have no invincibility after making doc roll when she double jumps off the ledge into her float and her fair is slow as **** so he has tons of time to do stuff about it

her alternatives then become double jumping into an airdodge, which is punishable, standard get-ups, which are punishable, and up+b, which is also punishable.

doc's not so awful that he can't d-smash people through standard ledge recoveries or do bair / moves.

>____>

 

[otg]

wow Kirbykaze defending doc for once lol.

 

[ranmaru]

I have this obsession fiery passion in my heart to be great with doc. Lol now how to make that a reality...

 

[P.C. Jona]

nah he makes a good point, but peach can do her own things as well, i dont really know all her options but im pretty sure just hitting l or r to roll with anyone is enough to get away from doctor pressure

i mean idk

it comes down to, if you do this, i do that nonsense
were basically talking what it is on paper

but idk
in real game play i dont think being on the edge is that dangerous
if your off stage vs him its dangerous but technically your still on the stage when you hold then edge

idk

 

[ChivalRuse]

I have this obsession fiery passion in my heart to be great with doc. Lol now how to make that a reality...

I don't know why, but this post made me grin.

 

[Vulcan55]

If you're on the edge, you're on the edge, not on the stage. From the edge you have 4 options, drop, jump, roll, pull-up. Two of which put you on the stage, two of which puts you off the stage (Sorta).
Oh, and I forgot attack.

 

[unknown522]

Alsooooooooooooooooo

You can get some whack angles by falling through platforms while pilling.

Like, I've had one go almost straight up.

But it's weird. I dunno how to do it consistently. I ~think~ fallspeed is taken into account, but I'm not sure.

ALSO

I started practicing Marvel.

That game is too crazy. Jill has a basic BnB for 1/2 life, it's easy, and she's not even upper mid tier.

Jill/Cyke/Sent

omfg

If the pill hits a slope on an acute angle, it will bounce upwards. It will go more vertical if if hits an obtuse slope.

 

[Gea]

I love the noises pills make.


Alot.

 

[Shroomed]

i had my first tourney well i felt like i played like crap

that's pretty weak

when are we having a doc conference?

 

[KirbyKaze]

nah he makes a good point, but peach can do her own things as well, i dont really know all her options but im pretty sure just hitting l or r to roll with anyone is enough to get away from doctor pressure

i mean idk

it comes down to, if you do this, i do that nonsense
were basically talking what it is on paper

but idk
in real game play i dont think being on the edge is that dangerous
if your off stage vs him its dangerous but technically your still on the stage when you hold then edge

idk

At RoM I consistently ***** JFox's Peach in one of our friendly games whenever he got on the edge.

It's not mindgames and it's not him being bad or anything of the sort; it's because many characters simply don't have options on the edge like Sheik, Fox, Falco, and Jigglypuff do. That's just how it is.

If you fail at punishing that, then that sucks but it's not fair to blame your character for that. With few exceptions, it's not their limitation. You have to hit pretty low on the tier list before we start getting into characters who can't do jack to a ledge-bound Falcon.

 

[P.C. Jona]

not for anything but jfox isnt a very good peach to be comparing

vanz tho, vanz is serious

i think me and max were talking about this one time

vanz is a much smarter player

if you did this to his peach i would be impressed

 

[JFox]

my peach especially is infamous for getting stuck on the ledge. its always been a problem of mine regardless of character. But Peach has so little options cuz her DJ sucks, making things even harder for me. When you roll (pressing L or R from the ledge) with peach, she actually does a whole different animation from the rest of her ledge moves, so most people at this point know every time a peach is going to roll cuz they just look for the animation. So I dont bother rolling of ledge against good people.


But yea pc jona is right, vanz has told me in the past that despite peach's difficulties on ledge, hes far better than I am at the mixup/anticipation game.

PC Jona have I ever played u btw?

Edit: btw Peach has jump two ledge jumps, one taking her horizontal and the other mostly vertical. She has get up from the ledge which is probably her safest option. She has a super duper slow double jump, which when wavelanded can be coupled with dsmash to punish people who try to grab her. She has a TERRIBAD roll which I already mentioned. Her get up attacks are decent, the first being quick but short in range, which knocks the opponent down, followed by a decent amount of cooldown lag. The second (over 100%) is risky because it leaves u vulnerable due to its laggy startup and cooldown, but its range often surprises people so its worth mentioning.

Vanz usually does the waveland dsmash. All u have to do is when u see the double jump, know that the waveland dsmash is coming and do something other than grab. Of course this becomes a mixup game cuz then the opponent can shield after wavelands.

So yea, peach sucks on ledge, but ur not 100% guaranteed of anything.

 

[P.C. Jona]

nah we've never played before
you live near tristate dont you?
like nj or something?

 

[JFox]

well, considering we've never played, I'd prefer it if you dont talk about how good or bad I am. I admit that I'm not as good as vanz, but that shouldnt give u the right to make a blanket statement like "JFox isn't that good" when you have no idea how I am.

 

[P.C. Jona]

lol my friend played you, the one i mentioned
and he was telling me how beast vanz was
i asked about you, he basically said not as good

ive played vanz and hes crazy

i dont know for myself how good you are, but apparently i was right, not as good as vanz which was what i was told and my assumption and you confirmed it

but your right tho my bad, was just trying to make a point

 

[JFox]

Scar is really good with falcon, so u must be really bad? Just cuz vanz is better than me doesnt mean im not good. I've done a few things I'm proud of.

As for your friend max, he quit a long time ago iirc, so I doubt that is still very reliable info ur goin by