Do we want to add JC grabs into B+?

[shanus]

I think i have figured out a method to allow for JC grabs in B+:

(UNTESTED)

In the jumpsquat subaction:


Change action: action=34, requirement=Button Press: 04
Additional Requirement: On Ground
Asynchronous Timer: frames=2
Change action: action=19, requirement=Button Press: 04
Additional Requirement: On Ground

NOTE: If we do choose to include something like this, all jump start animations will need to be sped up to compensate for the 2 frame addition.

 

[VietGeek]

...

OMG

YES

YES

YES

YES

OH YES

OH MAN

ITS LIKE MAHVEL ALL OVER AGAIN

ITS MAHVEL BABEH

*****ES

BLUE LEIK CANDY MAN

NOW I CAN SWING SWORDS, PLAY BLU-RAY MOVIES, AND GRAB LITTLE BOYS

But seriously, I want it in.

Now I may be bias since I use characters that telegraph their grabs anyway so I want that little boost (Marth/Wolf never willingly give up spacing unless going for grab most of the time, TL is a failure, blah blah blah).

If there's a way to balance it out...since I know some people won't like that JC grabs might overcentralize grab initiation (although those that predominantly use it probably already only use standing and pivot grabs at most anyway).

It's a lot better than initial dash canceling in terms of how much it's gonna break things/how much work in regards to fixing the mechanic...since it only changes an aspect of one game element.

ya i didnt form that thoughts right <.< you got me hyped shanus

 

[Shell]

Perhaps if accompanied with a unique trade-off ala GHNeko's proposition.

 

[JCaesar]

I still don't see how initial dash canceling is broken...

 

[GHNeko]

Perhaps if accompanied with a unique trade-off ala GHNeko's proposition.

JC+ Grabs ftw. :V

 

[The Cape]

Sounds like a good thing to put in, and we can easily put in a global sweep to compensate.

 

[Revven]

Sounds fine to me.

 

[Almas]

Only if they're not always the best option. There are already multiple ways to shield from a dash, they should all be viable.

 

[GHNeko]

Only if they're not always the best option. There are already multiple ways to shield from a dash, they should all be viable.

That would be the point of JC+ grabs.

If you flub ie Miss the JC+, you get extra lag, making it so that they're never the best option and the potency of JC+ grabs becomes unique on a character per character as then certain characters would do better with DC grabs than JC+ grabs due to their short init dash and what not.

 

[VietGeek]

I tried JC grab on Marth and it doesn't seem to add much distance. Tbh it looks almost like it traveled the same distance as just running shieldgrab.

I should try it on someone like Falcon...but if it does turn out to not do much...I don't think there's much balancing required lol.

EDIT: Err yeah...Captain's is crazy broken. Captain's is so fast he can literally Dthrow CG himself now if they don't DI.

And Marth's sucks...

>___>

inb4 momentum revisions

 

[GHNeko]

Factor in DI please. :V

 

[Shell]

EDIT: Err yeah...Captain's is crazy broken... if they don't DI.

Meh. Can't think of many things easier to DI than throws.

 

[GHNeko]

lol sonic usmash :V

 

[VietGeek]

Considering I have no one to play with, that's kinda hard guys. I'm sure if you DI away and down (Ryoko's "superman" DI for such low sending throws, it's gonna be a tech chase that's not in your favor vs Falcon...just think Falcon pro with drugs = tech chase to death).

Anyway, who has terrible dash grabs but notably better standing grabs? These characters should be the ones where a punishment for JC whiffs are added...if it's possible to differentiate between characters.

The obvious would be Marth, ROB, D3, Charizard (pretty sure), Bowser. However the last three might have poor momentum capture, or have standard MC but lack dash speed. All of these factor into their JC grab brokeness . =/

What I do know is that there will never be a reason for me to dash grab with TL ever again...

which I believe is fine by me. <.<

 

[leafgreen386]

I'd support it. I'd wanna see which characters have crazy JC grabs first, before I say it would need too much additional balancing, but if falcon is one of the few chars with such a crazy JC grab, then I think that's just fine.

We need to work on getting the other general mechanics stuff down, too, though... Autosweetspotting when you hit someone, walljumps, footstools, and powershielding: I'm looking at you.

And we need to implement cape's wallteching fix already, if it hasn't been done yet.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

I'm of the opinion that most grabs come easily enough and we don't need more ways to grab people or make existing grab games less punishable.

 

[GHNeko]

How is adding JC+ making grab games less punishable when missed JC grabs mean more lag?

 

[RyokoYaksa]

You can't seriously tell me that missed JC grabs are even a reason to consider their punishability. They're easy to do even with the fastest of jumpers if you aren't completely uncoordinated.

 

[Shell]

He means they'd have additional end-lag on whiff, not on failed input execution.

 

[JCaesar]

Would this work with tap-jump off?

I'm guessing no. This could alienate a lot of people.

DC grabs plz...

 

[Yeroc]

You can hit X to jump before tapping Z too you know...

I'm with Ryoko on this one. From the looks of it, adding JCs will require lots of work for something that doesn't particularly need addressing, and the punishment aspect is laughable. I can't flub a jc grab even when I'm trying to. This is obviating dash grabs all over again.

 

[JCaesar]

**** I forgot that grab is Z XD

JC usmashes are pretty difficult with tap jump off. They pretty much require clawing. I forgot that grabbing uses a different finger entirely.

Regardless, I still think it's silly to create this AT when we already have one to serve the same function that just needs some polishing.

 

[CT Chia]

ummm... isnt a jc usmash just usmash outta dash? aka hitting c stick up while running which works in brawl lol

 

[GHNeko]

You can hit X to jump before tapping Z too you know...

I'm with Ryoko on this one. From the looks of it, adding JCs will require lots of work for something that doesn't particularly need addressing, and the punishment aspect is laughable. I can't flub a jc grab even when I'm trying to. This is obviating dash grabs all over again.

What? People miss grabs ALL the time. Even in Melee, Pros and Nubs alike missed JC Grabs.

<_<

ummm... isnt a jc usmash just usmash outta dash? aka hitting c stick up while running which works in brawl lol

...Nooo....?

<__>

 

[JCaesar]

ummm... isnt a jc usmash just usmash outta dash? aka hitting c stick up while running which works in brawl lol

Different game mechanic bro.

You can't c-stick usmash out of shield or Fox's new shine.

 

[Blank Mauser]

I'm of the opinion that most grabs come easily enough and we don't need more ways to grab people or make existing grab games less punishable.

I agree completely. I really don't think we need to add another grab. Its a bit over-excessive and grabs land enough. If theres really a problem with anyones grab game we have plenty of grabs to choose from. Pivot, standing, dash etc.

Universal grabs like this is the easy way out when we can fine-tune them individually.

 

[shanus]

yeah i dont really care either way, someone asked in the IRC and I said I could so i made a demo

 

[GHNeko]

How would we be making the existing grab game less punishable with JC+ Grabs, would are intended to have extra lag added to the grab if you miss?

It's not, it's adding a risky grab to the pool of grabs that mostly characters with long initial dashes would benefit from. Characters with short dashes wouldn't benefit from it as DC grab would be a safer option for them most of the time.

It adds more to grab game as a whole and spices things up without giving the player too many options. It also adds another TRUE AT this this game, which is something we've been recently looking for by giving the player an advanced tactic that has its obvious weaknesses and can't be tossed around left and right without major punishment.

It'd require good aim, good timing, and an opportunity that shows JC+ as the best choice, which would be different every single time a grab opportunity presented itself. <_<

 

[Veril]

I... don't support this. DI isn't the panacea vs. throw followups. Character like Falcon and Pikachu have setups that fall into the "trap" catagory I was talking about and DI there just determines how you get f***ed up (nair and knee vs. regrab vs. up-air > fair vs. **** chase if you can actually tech out of it, and that isn't true at all %... etc). Increasing Falcon's grab range via JC grabs, as an example, is beyond ********. We shouldn't do it.

This is neither a way to balance grabs (in fact, just the opposite) internally (within a character's moveset) nor externally (across the cast). Its a bigger deal than you guys seem to think... in a bad way.

 

[teh_spamerer]

I'm all for it. JC grabbing feels more natural to me

 

[GHNeko]

JC+ lol

10char

 

[The Cape]

I... don't support this. DI isn't the panacea vs. throw followups. Character like Falcon and Pikachu have setups that fall into the "trap" catagory I was talking about and DI there just determines how you get f***ed up (nair and knee vs. regrab vs. up-air > fair vs. **** chase if you can actually tech out of it, and that isn't true at all %... etc). Increasing Falcon's grab range via JC grabs, as an example, is beyond ********. We shouldn't do it.

This is neither a way to balance grabs (in fact, just the opposite) internally (within a character's moveset) nor externally (across the cast). Its a bigger deal than you guys seem to think... in a bad way.

I completely agree with Veril here.

If we could make the JC grab input do the same thing as a dash canceled grab though, that would be perfect. This insane sliding with the grab is stupid and doesnt really bring about alot of benefit. By giving DC grabs with the JC animation it will work much better.

 

[GHNeko]

I keep saying to make it so that JC+ doesnt slide and leave the slide to DCs and you keep forgetting about JC+ whiffs.

 

[Veril]

I keep saying to make it so that JC+ doesnt slide and leave the slide to DCs and you keep forgetting about JC+ whiffs.

JC+ whiffs aren't important enough to be worth mentioning here.

Grabs don't need to be better. We don't need this at all. If we're gonna add in some new AT this is not the one.

 

[leafgreen386]

Well, the main reason JC grabs were so much better than dash grabs in melee was actually because they were much less punishable. Dash grabs were also a little slower to come out, but most of the time, the speed of a dash grab would've sufficed, with the exception of certain chaingrabs. Players do miss grabs, and when they do, they want to keep themselves as safe as possible. There's no reason to unnecessarily put yourself at risk. If JC+ grabs get implemented, they'll hardly dominate the game, simply due to their lag and the risk associated with them. In fact, the only thing JC+ grabs will let you do that you couldn't do more effectively already is perform a grab with the speed/accuracy of a standing grab out of your initial dash, but again... there's the punishment window if you miss.

 

[Veril]

This is assuming the JC grab is initiating a combo sequence or whatever, as opposed to being a followup component. That is a terrible assumption.

 

[shanus]

I think for most characters, aren't we seeing an approximate 2-3 frame execution window difference with slightly larger range (let us not forget the 1 frame to start the jump)?

I would much rather see some numbers to this argument rather than an omfg this will change every combo linker out there because this seems to be hyperbole on both ends of the argument here.

 

[JCaesar]

OK so lately we've had a ton of ideas of how to tweak/improve the grab game, but there's also been a lot of discussion about how grabbing is already very powerful.

Have we ever discussed grab breaks? Does a code exist for something like this? My suggestion would be to have a window beginning right when you are grabbed, 2-4 frames or so (small enough so it's very difficult) where if you press a certain button, you instantly grab break. I suggest pressing Grab (Z) to grab break because if it was Attack (A), you would accidently break too often. And Grab makes more sense than anything else.

 

[shanus]

OK so lately we've had a ton of ideas of how to tweak/improve the grab game, but there's also been a lot of discussion about how grabbing is already very powerful.

Have we ever discussed grab breaks? Does a code exist for something like this? My suggestion would be to have a window beginning right when you are grabbed, 2-4 frames or so (small enough so it's very difficult) where if you press a certain button, you instantly grab break. I suggest pressing Grab (Z) to grab break because if it was Attack (A), you would accidently break too often. And Grab makes more sense than anything else.

Pretty cool idea, build in a non spam window as well for it so you can't mash it

I remmebr when Bum suggested this and people weren't in favor...


I can make this if I find a way to make the only input be Z instead of L R or Z

 

[Shell]

That sounds like a pretty cool idea when paired with JC+ grabs.