Do the stages actually kill us, or is it our own fault?

[Amazing Ampharos]

also i just noticed something, if you die because of a stage hazard, the stage then killed you. If it had not been there then it wouldn't have killed you.

This logic quickly leads to the absurd.

If you recover to a ledge, the stage saved you. If the ledge wasn't there, you couldn't have recovered to it.

If you get killed by a smash attack, the stage killed you. If the ground wasn't there, then it wouldn't have killed you.

In terms of winning and losing, the only thing you really need to focus on is that when you lose, you did less effective things to win than your opponent. We can call a stage a bad stage when the options required to win are degenerate or when the stage removes the effects of the players' choices. When you start trying to go beyond that into "the stage killed me", you start looking at things as problems that are not and start favoring banning more than you should.

About PictoChat, given that that missile has fixed knockback and never kills by itself, yes dying after being hit by it would indeed be your fault.

 

[Marine Snow]

Sky World is out for my blood. Every time I try to recover the broken platforms regenerate at that EXACT SECOND. I will not be the first to admit that I have been K.O.ed by being under the pirate ship when it starts to go back into the water.

Me: -1 point
The boat: +1

 

[The_Altrox]

Here's a new way to look at it. Stage Hazards are a lot like big dogs that will bite if provoked (not that you must provoke the stage.) Like this: When you walk by a big dog's yard, you see a "Beware of Dog" sign. You should think "OH! I better avoid that yard." Likewise, warnings for stage hazzards have signs too. If you get bit by the dog, you probably made a mistake, like taking it's bone, or peeing on his hydrant. Likewise, if the stage kills you after warnings, it was your slip up. And if an opponent causes you to slip up, you have to be careful on both planes. In the dog sign situation, if you were in a fight with the guy who stole your girlfriend up on that dog's fence, you'd have to be careful not to fall off while fighting him. (Note: This is not based off any of my own personal experiences... so stop giving me those looks.)

 

[AgentJGV]

Here's a new way to look at it. Stage Hazards are a lot like big dogs that will bite if provoked (not that you must provoke the stage.) Like this: When you walk by a big dog's yard, you see a "Beware of Dog" sign. You should think "OH! I better avoid that yard." Likewise, warnings for stage hazzards have signs too. If you get bit by the dog, you probably made a mistake, like taking it's bone, or peeing on his hydrant. Likewise, if the stage kills you after warnings, it was your slip up. And if an opponent causes you to slip up, you have to be careful on both planes. In the dog sign situation, if you were in a fight with the guy who stole your girlfriend up on that dog's fence, you'd have to be careful not to fall off while fighting him. (Note: This is not based off any of my own personal experiences... so stop giving me those looks.)

*looks at Altrox*

but in the end its the "dog's" fault for biting you. HIS teeth were the ones clamp down, not your own. It doesn't matter whether you provoked it or not, the point is he still bit you.

 

[thanortinzak]

Here's the way I look at it: NO JOHNS.

When a missle comes out at you when you have high damage, it is YOUR OPPONENT who caused that damage. The stage is NOT broken. It's also YOUR fault you allowed yourself to get that much damage. Once again, NO JOHNS!

However, I do agree some techniques on stages (if you can even call those moves techniques) are broken. In this case, you are not at fault, and the technique should be banned. For example, King DeDeDe's chaingrab is an instant win on Shadow Moses Island. Falco can laserlock players on certain stages with walls. And some stages, though not as many as you think, are TRULY inherently broken. It is extremely hard to fight AND recover on the truly inherently broken stages I am talking about. These stages, though few, should be banned.

So my opinion is that the vast majority of the times, it is your own fault, and if you complain, all that I'll say is "No Johns". However, if someone is using a cheap "technique", or the stage IS inherently broken, the banworthy move or broken stage is to blame.

 

[The_Altrox]

*looks at Altrox*

but in the end its the "dog's" fault for biting you. HIS teeth were the ones clamp down, not your own. It doesn't matter whether you provoked it or not, the point is he still bit you.

But you were the one who screwed up and pissed him off, thus causing your own demise. The dog already had the warning label on him, and you screwed up and you pay for it.

 

[TheFast]

I think a stage shouldnt have hazards. Even if its your opponent screwwing up to get hit its damage you yourself did not earn on them through your own skill. Also WTF?? Why is pictochat not banned yet...... It will flat out block you from coming back every know and than.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Why do threads like this exist? Why am I wasting my time explaining this?

WHY DOES ANYTHING KILL YOU IN THIS GAME? Because of the opponent. Your opponent distracts you, and therefore you are going to get hit from stage attacks more times than you think. I play with very professional level people, and all of them get hit by the claw on the Halberd occasionally. Occasionally, this thing called a GIMP happens. However, if this thread title was just a fancy way to say you did a suicide, then...you're a moron. You died because you miss-spaced or something. But that would make no sense, so I really hope that you're not looking for a way to justify making a mistake and accidentally screwing up your recovery. That would be very, very pathetic.

 

[The_Altrox]

Why do threads like this exist? Why am I wasting my time explaining this?

WHY DOES ANYTHING KILL YOU IN THIS GAME? Because of the opponent. Your opponent distracts you, and therefore you are going to get hit from stage attacks more times than you think. I play with very professional level people, and all of them get hit by the claw on the Halberd occasionally. Occasionally, this thing called a GIMP happens. However, if this thread title was just a fancy way to say you did a suicide, then...you're a moron. You died because you miss-spaced or something. But that would make no sense, so I really hope that you're not looking for a way to justify making a mistake and accidentally screwing up your recovery. That would be very, very pathetic.

Had you read, you'd know my opinion is that if the stage knocks you off, it was your fault in the long run.

 

[AgentJGV]

Ok Trox, look at it this way. If i jump off the stage and die, it counts as a suicide. However if i jump off and get hit by my opponent before i die, it counts as a kill. now then. relate this to what we're talking about.

 

[The_Altrox]

Ok Trox, look at it this way. If i jump off the stage and die, it counts as a suicide. However if i jump off and get hit by my opponent before i die, it counts as a kill. now then. relate this to what we're talking about.

Doesn't matter either way. If you get knocked off by the stage by lava, it's your fault, suicide. If your opponent knocks you into lava, and you get knocked off, your fault, kill. Either way, your fault.

 

[PD4FR]

Hm... Altrox, how do you propose you dodge a *good* D3s bair, or his chaingrab?
I can usually get a grab when I want with D3, partially because of his immense grab range.

Sorry if this has been cleared up, I only read up until you said that on the first page.

By the way, I have tripped into the laser on Halberd, and there was no way around that.
Tell me how that is not the stage killing me, besides saying anything to the effect of "fight in the air more".

 

[The_Altrox]

Hm... Altrox, how do you propose you dodge a *good* D3s bair, or his chaingrab?
I can usually get a grab when I want with D3, partially because of his immense grab range.

Sorry if this has been cleared up, I only read up until you said that on the first page.

By the way, I have tripped into the laser on Halberd, and there was no way around that.
Tell me how that is not the stage killing me, besides saying anything to the effect of "fight in the air more".

You tripping is actually luck, but not stage oriented. I would say stay away from hazards you can trip into if that bothers. Assuming the chain grabbing is a way to kill on walkoffs, that's why most are banned. But in castle siege and delfino, I recommend you take the high ground on the walk off portions.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

I wasn't addressing you Altrox. That was just a general announcement to the public.

Although now that you bring your opinion to my attention, it really makes no sense. So you're telling me that if the STAGE knocks you off, it's YOUR fault? Huh. I understand what you meant, but you should really work on your sentence wording so that no confusion arises. And in my own opinion, YOU are being rather ignorant. Whoever said that it doesn't matter about the provocation, it's still the dog's fault was right. Your opinion now really doesn't make sense, because you are essentially saying that everything that happens is your fault, and therefore NO ONE BUT yourself has any fault. That is not very practical nor sensible.

 

[AgentJGV]

I wasn't addressing you Altrox. That was just a general announcement to the public.

Although now that you bring your opinion to my attention, it really makes no sense. So you're telling me that if the STAGE knocks you off, it's YOUR fault? Huh. I understand what you meant, but you should really work on your sentence wording so that no confusion arises. And in my own opinion, YOU are being rather ignorant. Whoever said that it doesn't matter about the provocation, it's still the dog's fault was right. Your opinion now really doesn't make sense, because you are essentially saying that everything that happens is your fault, and therefore NO ONE BUT yourself has any fault. That is not very practical nor sensible.

thank you sir

 

[The_Altrox]

I wasn't addressing you Altrox. That was just a general announcement to the public.

Although now that you bring your opinion to my attention, it really makes no sense. So you're telling me that if the STAGE knocks you off, it's YOUR fault? Huh. I understand what you meant, but you should really work on your sentence wording so that no confusion arises. And in my own opinion, YOU are being rather ignorant. Whoever said that it doesn't matter about the provocation, it's still the dog's fault was right. Your opinion now really doesn't make sense, because you are essentially saying that everything that happens is your fault, and therefore NO ONE BUT yourself has any fault. That is not very practical nor sensible.

Nobody said my dog theory was perfect.
But who do you have to blame when you get blasted by a lava wave that's been warning you by tidal waving for 10 seconds? The lava gave you a fair warning. You can air dodge the lava, or ledge dodge, or take cover. If you get hit, it's your fault. If your opponent manages to grab you and toss you in, it's your fault for getting grabbed/hit. I play Norfair a lot myself, so I've had my share of lava deaths, but I can admit they happened from my own mistakes since there were 1,001 ways to dodge them. Not the stages fault, my own for falling into them or being hit by my enemy

 

[ShadoFiend]

Pirate Ship.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj9BY2aGqz4&feature=channel

You tell me...

 

[The_Altrox]

Pirate Ship.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj9BY2aGqz4&feature=channel

You tell me...

You can see those canonballs coming. We've already been over this

 

[ShadoFiend]

You can see those canonballs coming. We've already been over this

Disregard my last post then. I guess my one track vision keeps me from seeing them. And here I thought I just had a target on my head on that level

 

[The_Altrox]

Disregard my last post then. I guess my one track vision keeps me from seeing them. And here I thought I just had a target on my head on that level

I hate the cannon balls too. It still screws me over from time to time. you just gotta get used to it and predict when/where they're gonna land.

 

[AgentJGV]

I still think your missing my point. OK lets say, i punch you in the face. Now who's fault is it that you got punched in the face?

 

[The_Altrox]

I still think your missing my point. OK lets say, i punch you in the face. Now who's fault is it that you got punched in the face?

Missed a point here too? Was there any signs of warning to this punch? Either way, possible real life situations can't be compared to this, including the dog theory which I was trying to use to clear things up.
But assuming you decide to pumch me. If I had fair warning of said punch like you do of stage hazards, I would probably duck. It would be stupid not to.

 

[AgentJGV]

You're saying that you can be blamed for something that is entirely out of your control. You can't decide when a stage does a certain thing so how can you blame yourself for something that is PART OF THE STAGE?

I end this with yet one more situation. I shied break my opponent on Delfino BEFORE the stage rises. he's stunned, the stage rises and he is left to his doom. Although i know your answer so before you say that "he shouldn't have got hit and its his fault for getting hit" remember that we are not debating whether its his fault for getting hit. We are debating whether its the stages fault or the player who is suffered.

 

[The_Altrox]

You're saying that you can be blamed for something that is entirely out of your control. You can't decide when a stage does a certain thing so how can you blame yourself for something that is PART OF THE STAGE?

I end this with yet one more situation. I shied break my opponent on Delfino BEFORE the stage rises. he's stunned, the stage rises and he is left to his doom. Although i know your answer so before you say that "he shouldn't have got hit and its his fault for getting hit" remember that we are not debating whether its his fault for getting hit. We are debating whether its the stages fault or the player who is suffered.

Nothing is out of your control. If something changes, you must change with it or die by your fault. You have to know how to play what you are given.
And had you been reading earlier posts, your would have read that I believe the stage and the players are integrated. So if somebody does shieldbreak and is left behind, it is their fault for breaking and dying. and they should have played carefully given stage situation. Whether you play on legal stages like FD, or counter stages like Norfair, you are involved/integrated with the stage, so if you do something like break, it is your fault if the stage leaves you behind, especially on timed schedual stages like Delfino.

 

[AgentJGV]

Name one person who actually has the time change memorized.

 

[SSBbo]

spoilers: JGV wins arguement.

Seriously, you get shield broken and have a low damage percent anywhere else, he charges a smash on you, or falcon punches you. You now have a big disadvantage (your fault) but on delfino, the stage leaves you (not your fault) and you die.

lulz, this is entertaining.

 

[The_Altrox]

spoilers: JGV wins arguement.

Seriously, you get shield broken and have a low damage percent anywhere else, he charges a smash on you, or falcon punches you. You now have a big disadvantage (your fault) but on delfino, the stage leaves you (not your fault) and you die.

lulz, this is entertaining.

If the stage leaves you, it is you fault for have breaking. and I don't have the times memorized but I know the basic time idea, and that's all I need to do well.

and how doees he win? explain yourself beefore making claims.

 

[SSBbo]

i think JGV has a better way with logic and explaining things.

but, it's not your fault that the stage left, you have NO power over when the stage leaves. you were just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

 

[bobson]

Name one person who actually has the time change memorized.

If you're playing at the top level, why would you NOT memorize something that could potentially gimp you at low percents?

 

[K 2]

Its definately your fault. Unless the stage is completely unpredicatable and/or it has OHKO hazards, its the player's fault.

 

[SSBbo]

If you're playing at the top level, why would you NOT memorize something that could potentially gimp you at low percents?

i like delfino, and just in case i get shieldbroken, at what intervals does the stage leave? seriously, i'm not being sarcastic, it could improve my competitive game...
Ahh whatever i'll figure out l8er

I do think that that circumstance is one in a million, though. I think it's our fault (with the exception of some of the stuff at spear pillar and the possiblilty of the earthbound dragon thing appearing on top of you) but i like good arguments

 

[boss8]

nothing really can kill you but yourself.....you are your own opponent..that other person doesnt matter.....neither does obsticles..play smooth..

 

[Johnny Pteran]

nothing really can kill you but yourself.....you are your own opponent..that other person doesnt matter.....neither does obsticles..play smooth..

Yeah man... Just like... Go with the flow, man... Man, this pot is pretty good... Yeah.... Just play it smooth, man....

 

[SSBbo]

nothing really can kill you but yourself.....you are your own opponent..that other person doesnt matter.....neither does obsticles..play smooth..

If i had to fight myself, I'd win...
every time...

 

[boss8]

thats not true...you would win....

 

[fox219]

Yes, it was your fault for getting grabbed.
If you didnt get grabbed, you would have avoided that hazard.

agreed. It's their own fault!

 

[The_Altrox]

i think JGV has a better way with logic and explaining things.

but, it's not your fault that the stage left, you have NO power over when the stage leaves. you were just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

considering he never goes back to defend half of the claims he's made, but I've been countering them with the same simple logic... think about that.

Consider this. You must use logic on stages. Shield breaking is something you bring upon yourself by shielding to much. You should think to yourself "Hey, I better not break on this level, or bad things may happen." Because your play is integrated with the stage, you should realize that breaking shield on Delfino can cause you ti die early. Breaking = Your fault, and you'll pay the price, cause the stage is gonna do what it always does when it leaves on time, and you shouldn't have been holding the shield to long if you wanted to make it back. Bottom line = your fault.

 

[AgentJGV]

Weren't you the one saying don't get hit?

 

[Sonicdahedgie]

You are ALWAYS at fault for getting killed or hurt by the stage. But, there are varying degrees of how much you are at fault.

Pirate Ship- EVERY danger here has plenty of warning. You know what's going to happen before it happens.
Fault Percentage: 100%

Frigate Orpheon- When the stage flips, you might die. But people learn pretty quickly on where you can and can't die.
Fault Percentage: 80%

Skyworld- God **** we all hate this stage. If you knew precisely when the platforms would reappear, it wouldn't be a problem. But you don't. It's your fault for getting knocked down, but still...
Fault Percentage: 10%
_________________
My numbers are COMPLETELY random and arbitrary, I'm just using them as a way to express my point.

After the percentage of your fault passes down below a certain point, then a stage should be banned. Your fault is determined by the PREDICTABILITY of the danger, regardless of the situation regarding it. Big Blue? Predictable.
Spear Pillar? Not really. The lasers are predictable, the boomerangs are less so, but the control switch happens instantly.

 

[The_Altrox]

Weren't you the one saying don't get hit?

Yes. Isai said this and it holds true. But many people will get hit. It's a natural part of the game that is very difficult to avoid (though possible.) However, getting hit =/= shield breaking, but holding your shield up will lead to this. If you let your shield break, it was your fault for getting careless