Do the stages actually kill us, or is it our own fault?

[The_Altrox]

OKAY, I'M SICK OF RESPONDING TO ARGUMENTS THAT HAVE ALREADY BEEN BROUGHT UP AND PROVEN FAIR!!! BEFORE YOU POST, PLEASE, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, READ THE TOPIC AND POSTS BEFORE POSTING, AND DON'T BRING UP OLD ARGUMENTS WE'VE ALREADY PROVEN FAIR!!!

When me and friends Brawl, we sometimes play on those counterpicks like Norfair, Pirate Ship, Picto-Chat, and people complain. It's gotten to the point that even when we play "tourney style," people won't let us choose stages like those. The common excuse: I hate stages that can kill you!

Granted, some stages like Spear Pillar can be competely unpredictable. I'm talking about the stages that are counterpick, since the signs of what's gonna happen appear a mile away.

But isn't it their fault? I mean, when your at Pirate ship, you can start jumping the moment you see cannon balls. Avoid the spikes and missiles at Picto Chat. And you can air dodge the lava wave at Norfair.
There's the argument that you may have been thrown/hit into the danger zones. But that goes back to those old words of wisdom: "Don't get hit." or grabbed for that matter. If you get hit/thrown, it was your fault for not avoiding it.
Then there's the "I don't play this game enough to read the signs" excuse. But is it fair to the people who do play enough to know this?

Once again, granted, I like to make excuses too about how I could have won if that claw on Kirby's stage didn't kill me. But that's what we call a "john," and it those counterpick stages, they're still johns, whether you suicided, got smashed out, or you fell into a wave of lava.

Opinions?

 

[Barge]

Yes, it was your fault for getting grabbed.
If you didnt get grabbed, you would have avoided that hazard.

 

[Argyris]

Sometimes, it's the player's fault. Sometimes, it's the opponent's actions. Other times, it can be the stage itself. Most of the time, it's clearly avoidable and your fault for getting hit/grabbed or for walking/running into the trap but there are some times when it comes out of nowhere and you're left wondering how it happened. That's why those stages are counterpick and not neutral or banned. Here's a couple of videos to help me back this up:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGLc1bpya1g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hE4zHjYWeyk

 

[The_Altrox]

Sometimes, it's the player's fault. Sometimes, it's the opponent's actions. Other times, it can be the stage itself. Most of the time, it's clearly avoidable and your fault for getting hit/grabbed or for walking/running into the trap but there are some times when it comes out of nowhere and you're left wondering how it happened. That's why those stages are counterpick and not neutral or banned. Here's a couple of videos to help me back this up:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGLc1bpya1g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hE4zHjYWeyk

Most things in the first videos were the players thoughts. and Elden doesn't count since it's banned. Picto chat is the exception though. Skyworld is counter/banned, but I think it should be removed since the edges can be boomed. Green greens seems random, but you shouldn't play on the blocks. Their fault. and on both videos, lots of those deaths had nothing to do with the stage.

 

[Absoltrainer]

depends on how you look at it.

I mean that lip on Final Destination kills me all the time
¬_¬

 

[Denzi]

By "the stage can kill you" logic, no one would be able to play at all. Stagespikes; therefore every stage can kill you.

But seriously, I don't like people who think like that (although it still sucks when it happens sometimes *trip into Halberd's laser*).

 

[Miamisportsfan45]

I used this as an argument already on GB for other purposes... so yes, I agree with you completely. I'm glad I'm not the only one with this argument.

Sometimes it's the players faults, and others it's the stages. It depends on situation.

 

[sro2]

I say that it's the players fault that they got killed by a stage feature. If your playing against someone who'll chuck you into it, stay away from it. Easy.

 

[Linkismyfavorite]

This is like saying "people don't kill people, guns do" but that is obviously wrong so i'd say its the players fault.

 

[Raimu]

I say that it's the players fault that they got killed by a stage feature. If your playing against someone who'll chuck you into it, stay away from it. Easy.

Yes, thats easy to say, but, lets say D3 chaingrabs you and tosses you into, suddenly not so easy.

I don't agree with it being the players fault. Not completely anyway. Lets take an example from the Halbred stage. Theres a claw on the deck of the ship that will follow you, and eventually attack you, not only that, it has the power to K.O. you, so you have to respect it as a threat. By doing this your dividing your attention away from your opponent partially, maybe your opponent distracts you and it hits you, maybe it distracts you then your opponent takes advantage, either way, a player being followed around by a death claw is at a disadvantage to a player not being followed around by a death claw.

In addition, you have characters with poor vertical recovery. On moving stages like Dephino, its easy for a character who can recover well vertically to trap them below the stage and recover to safety, leaving your opponent to get K.O.'d by the moving stage.

 

[Sosuke]

By "the stage can kill you" logic, no one would be able to play at all. Stagespikes; therefore every stage can kill you.

Teching?

But seriously, I don't like people who think like that (although it still sucks when it happens sometimes *trip into Halberd's laser*).

Smash DI?

Its your fault, not the stages. >_>
I'm pretty sure nothing THAT bad happens completely randomly, so everything can be countered if you have the knowledge to do so. Its not the stages fault.

LEAVE BATTLEFIELD ALONE!!!

 

[RZA_Immortal Technique]

player fault.....(other than the claw that hits you automatically at ahlberd.. =/ )

 

[Raimu]

player fault.....(other than the claw that hits you automatically at ahlberd.. =/ )

You can shield, roll, sidestep, or air dodge it. Its not "Automatic". But in my previous post I made my feelings on this exact hazard pretty clear.

 

[ExCeL 52]

Its definitely our fault .. because the stage doesn't kill us one-hundred percent of the time....


Duh.

 

[The_Altrox]

Yes, thats easy to say, but, lets say D3 chaingrabs you and tosses you into, suddenly not so easy.

I don't agree with it being the players fault. Not completely anyway. Lets take an example from the Halbred stage. Theres a claw on the deck of the ship that will follow you, and eventually attack you, not only that, it has the power to K.O. you, so you have to respect it as a threat. By doing this your dividing your attention away from your opponent partially, maybe your opponent distracts you and it hits you, maybe it distracts you then your opponent takes advantage, either way, a player being followed around by a death claw is at a disadvantage to a player not being followed around by a death claw.

In addition, you have characters with poor vertical recovery. On moving stages like Dephino, its easy for a character who can recover well vertically to trap them below the stage and recover to safety, leaving your opponent to get K.O.'d by the moving stage.

THen don't let DDD grab you. and don't get trapped on Delfino. learn to avoid such situations

 

[CaliburChamp]

It's the players fault mostly. I don't mind playing on those stages. It makes the game more enjoyable when you play on more stages. I also hate it when people cancel and/or complain about the stages I pick, when its only a friendly match. That's just lame. *_*

 

[Raimu]

THen don't let DDD grab you. and don't get trapped on Delfino. learn to avoid such situations

You never addressed the claw issue. And B-grabs happen. getting hit happens. If you can prove to me that you've never gotten grabbed or hit, then your above statement is valid. If not, please provide me with a more well thought-out argument. Considering the amount of thought I put into my post your reply could easily be considered spam.

 

[The_Altrox]

You never addressed the claw issue. And B-grabs happen. getting hit happens. If you can prove to me that you've never gotten grabbed or hit, then your above statement is valid. If not, please provide me with a more well thought-out argument. Considering the amount of thought I put into my post your reply could easily be considered spam.

OH NOES!!! I'M SPAMMING MY OWN TOPIC!!!
No, but seriously...
The claw never gave me an issue. I keep moving when I see it, and it can't keep up.
But in a perfect game of competitive Brawl, you never get hit or grabbed. I doubt anybody has ever done this in an all out serious match, but that is what we strive for. Isai said "Don't get hit," and you can do that by learning to play well. Doesn't matter if your opponent is DDD, MK, Diddy, etc. You learn not to get hit or grabbed, and though that's mostly theoretical, since we all get grabbed and hit sometimes, if you don't let it happen, good fortune will smile on you in Brawls.

 

[Raimu]

See? A reply that is more than one sentence, that wasn't so hard. Thanks. Seriously. I enjoy intelligent conversation, your last post is a lot better than "Just don't get hit." (Also, just because its your own topic doesn't give you the right to spam. Spam is spam, regardless.)

Back on topic tho. You have a point, however you said it yourself, never getting hit or grabbed is simply unrealistic. But, the topic at hand is that "Is it the players fault?" and, well, if its your fault you got hit, or grabbed, and tossed into a hazard, it is your fault, which makes your argument pretty solid.

I guess I'll just say that, in actual practice, not theory, stuff is going to happen.

Back off-topic, love the sig

 

[The_Altrox]

When you think bout it though, not getting hit can happen. I battle this guy online (yes online) on a regular basis, and I can sometimes make a damageless kill, even though the guy is better than I. If I can keep focus, it's possible.
The reason, I responded in a few sentences is that I figured that was all I needed to cover the base of the argument.
As for my sig, we all know Chris Jericho believes those who expect a good balanced match with MK are hypocrites, and they disgust him.

 

[deepseadiva]

Altrox, could you shrink your sig please?

It's annoying having to readjust my eyes whenever you post in a thread.

 

[Denzi]

Teching?

I said "can," I didn't say "will always".

 

[Plum]

player fault.....(other than the claw that hits you automatically at ahlberd.. =/ )

IIRC the Halberd hazards go after a specific character. I think it is who ever has the highest percent but I can't remember... look it up somewhere

Point being is that it is your duty as a Smash player to know how hazards work and how to avoid them and even seemingly random claw attacks can be predicted. (Going by my thought that it is who has the higher percent...) If you see the claw move and you have a higher percent then prepare for it.

The stages are left to be counterpick for a reason... the hazards have been shown to not affect gameplay too much to make it unplayable. Rather they just add a harm to play that may or may not aid some players, or just pose an equal but predictable or minimal threat to both.

 

[Bob Jane T-Mart]

player fault.....(other than the claw that hits you automatically at ahlberd.. =/ )

Yeah, you got to remember Corneria, the ship that you ride on randomly shoots blasters, which have almost no warning, Frigate Orophen which turns over every now and then, which has almost no warning either, Skyworld which has stage pieces that spawn, with no warning. So one minute, your making a recovery, the next you are dead, or are stuck under the stage. However, often it is actually the player's fault, eg. in Norfair, failing to move out of the way of the lava. Also as often it is the opponents fault, in which you get thrown/hit into the Halberd Cannon (i've done this once ), or when you are trapped by Fox's rapid kick on the catapult in Pirate Ship.

So it is mainly the players that kill, instead of the stages, which only happen every now and then.

 

[ndayday]

It can be both. For example, Corneria's lasers shoot out from the bottom and kill you. It's possible to not see it coming while ou get hit under the stage, and that would be the stage killing you.

You can also intentionally kill yourself with the same method.

Then, there's the fact you can kill yourself by DI'ing, (off the side of the stage most likely) but the stage kills you too...so it goes like this:

Killing yourself is the stage killing you, but the stage killing you is not you killing yourself. I'm a bit confused, actually.

Also, 600th post. =O

 

[AgentJGV]

OH NOES!!! I'M SPAMMING MY OWN TOPIC!!!
No, but seriously...
The claw never gave me an issue. I keep moving when I see it, and it can't keep up.
But in a perfect game of competitive Brawl, you never get hit or grabbed. I doubt anybody has ever done this in an all out serious match, but that is what we strive for. Isai said "Don't get hit," and you can do that by learning to play well. Doesn't matter if your opponent is DDD, MK, Diddy, etc. You learn not to get hit or grabbed, and though that's mostly theoretical, since we all get grabbed and hit sometimes, if you don't let it happen, good fortune will smile on you in Brawls.

But getting hit is a part of smash. In fact, i've heard some pros say that you take a little hit to counter with a bigger one. I play with the mindset of, "get hit when i'm safe and hit them when they're not." (of course i play as Ganon so....w/e.

Back to the stage arguement. A stage that kills you is everyone's worst nightmare. After all, you want to fight a fighter not the stage. Thats why some people don't like playing on Port town, or Delfino.

 

[Deoxys]

But getting hit is a part of smash. In fact, i've heard some pros say that you take a little hit to counter with a bigger one. I play with the mindset of, "get hit when i'm safe and hit them when they're not." (of course i play as Ganon so....w/e.

Back to the stage arguement. A stage that kills you is everyone's worst nightmare. After all, you want to fight a fighter not the stage. Thats why some people don't like playing on Port town, or Delfino.

Stages don't kill you (at least tournament legal ones). You kill yourself by not playing well on them.

 

[Alphicans]

I noticed this a couple of times, "Don't get grabbed" followed by, "Don't let DDD grab you." DDD has the longest non-tether grab, you WILL get grabbed by him. It's like saying don't get grabbed by marth in melee, it WILL happen.

Now to go on the topic. Pictochat: Let's say i am somewhere on the stage, and then the flames come up while I am jumping or anyother reason you can think of. Then I get hit by these flames, and I am perfectly set up for a Uair that can kill. Is this my fault? I'd like to think not, what are you gonna say? "Don't jump when on pictochat, because you should know there is always a chance of having the missles,flames or spikes appearing." The bombs on pirate ship are easy to see, but the blast radius on them is pretty big. I would not say it's "easy" to avoid them, especially if two are launched at the same time, and you roll the first one but get hit by the second one. And when you do get hit, it's a **** load of damage, and can potentially kill you. Stages do kill, and they give the other player an advantage sometimes, hence COUNTER-pick stages.

 

[Deoxys]

Now to go on the topic. Pictochat: Let's say i am somewhere on the stage, and then the flames come up while I am jumping or anyother reason you can think of. Then I get hit by these flames, and I am perfectly set up for a Uair that can kill. Is this my fault? I'd like to think not, what are you gonna say? "Don't jump when on pictochat, because you should know there is always a chance of having the missles,flames or spikes appearing." The bombs on pirate ship are easy to see, but the blast radius on them is pretty big. I would not say it's "easy" to avoid them, especially if two are launched at the same time, and you roll the first one but get hit by the second one. And when you do get hit, it's a **** load of damage, and can potentially kill you. Stages do kill, and they give the other player an advantage sometimes, hence COUNTER-pick stages.

It is entirely your fault. I'm going to say "don't enter an area where a hitbox can appear on Pictochat at the EXACT, set, predictable interval in which a transformation will occur, unless you airdodge through it. There is always enough time to avoid both bombs. If you roll into the other bomb, it's your fault. You don't need to roll to avoid them in the first place. Running works fine.

 

[The Milk Monster]

Pictochat: People knocking us into the hazards.
Norfair: People knocking us into the hazards.
Pirate Ship: Stage.

/stagejohnz.

 

[Alphicans]

It is entirely your fault. I'm going to say "don't enter an area where a hitbox can appear on Pictochat at the EXACT, set, predictable interval in which a transformation will occur, unless you airdodge through it. There is always enough time to avoid both bombs. If you roll into the other bomb, it's your fault. You don't need to roll to avoid them in the first place. Running works fine.

That's very unreasonable. It's not a set order of stage changes. If I am trying to space it out, so when you come back from off the stage, and then the missles appear, then I die, it is the stage's fault. I don't think you read my post clearly enough. The bombs on pirate ship are a little more fair, but way more punishing. If I have to stop from killing you, because a bomb is coming, then it's the stages fault that you live. It's the same thing.

 

[Deoxys]

Pictochat: People knocking us into the hazards.
Norfair: People knocking us into the hazards.
Pirate Ship: Stage.

/stagejohnz.

No complaints about being knocked into hazards on Halberd?

That's very unreasonable. It's not a set order of stage changes. If I am trying to space it out, so when you come back from off the stage, and then the missles appear, then I die, it is the stage's fault. I don't think you read my post clearly enough. The bombs on pirate ship are a little more fair, but way more punishing. If I have to stop from killing you, because a bomb is coming, then it's the stages fault that you live. It's the same thing.

It's not unreasonable at all. Learn to play well on the stage. I never get hit by a Pictochat hazard without an opponent forcing me into it because I know how to play well there. If you're trying to space and you're standing where a hazard can appear, then you die, it is YOUR fault. You chose to take the risk by being where a hazard can appear at the moment the stage transforms, and you were punished for it. You need to take responsibility for your own actions. I don't think you read my post clearly enough.

So you wanna ban Yoshi's Island because if the ghost comes up and saves your opponent it's the stage's fault your opponent lives?

 

[Alphicans]

No I don't want to ban yoshi's story, because it's more neutral than pictochat. I also don't want to ban pictochat. Are you saying you know how to predict when the missles or flames will appear? You can't, it's impossible. It's random. If you're going to not follow your opponent off the stage because you don't want to risk getting hit by a missle, then you would never edgegaurd, therefore, making you a bad player.

EDIT: Just thought of a really good example. Let's say, on pictochat, as T.link, I try to hyphen smash my opponent because I am tech chasing or w/e. Then while I am running the wind "stage" comes up, making me go slower and not being able to punish in time, so then I die because my opponent can punish me. There are so many examples, it's unreal. You can't defend all of them.

 

[CaliburChamp]

I noticed this a couple of times, "Don't get grabbed" followed by, "Don't let DDD grab you." DDD has the longest non-tether grab, you WILL get grabbed by him. It's like saying don't get grabbed by marth in melee, it WILL happen.

Now to go on the topic. Pictochat: Let's say i am somewhere on the stage, and then the flames come up while I am jumping or anyother reason you can think of. Then I get hit by these flames, and I am perfectly set up for a Uair that can kill. Is this my fault? I'd like to think not, what are you gonna say? "Don't jump when on pictochat, because you should know there is always a chance of having the missles,flames or spikes appearing." The bombs on pirate ship are easy to see, but the blast radius on them is pretty big. I would not say it's "easy" to avoid them, especially if two are launched at the same time, and you roll the first one but get hit by the second one. And when you do get hit, it's a **** load of damage, and can potentially kill you. Stages do kill, and they give the other player an advantage sometimes, hence COUNTER-pick stages.

Charizard has the longest non-tether grab, not DDD, although he does have great grab range.

 

[Deoxys]

No I don't want to ban yoshi's story, because it's more neutral than pictochat. I also don't want to ban pictochat. Are you saying you know how to predict when the missles or flames will appear? You can't, it's impossible. It's random. If you're going to not follow your opponent off the stage because you don't want to risk getting hit by a missle, then you would never edgegaurd, therefore, making you a bad player.

EDIT: Just thought of a really good example. Let's say, on pictochat, as T.link, I try to hyphen smash my opponent because I am tech chasing or w/e. Then while I am running the wind "stage" comes up, making me go slower and not being able to punish in time, so then I die because my opponent can punish me. There are so many examples, it's unreal. You can't defend all of them.

Yeah you can. First of all, a transformation will never come a second time. Secondly, the TL has to weigh the risk when he commits to the approach, and if he is unlucky he will be punished for taking the risk. I can predict when the transformations come, every time. They come at set intervals. When one of those intervals occurs, I don't place myself where a hazard that hasn't appeared yet could be unless it's weak enough that I consider it worth the risk. A good player will still follow the opponent offstage, but when it's the time for the hazard to appear, they won't be where the missiles appear unless they think it's worth the risk.

In short, can the stage kill you? If it does it's your own fault for taking the risk.

 

[The_Altrox]

Altrox, could you shrink your sig please?

It's annoying having to readjust my eyes whenever you post in a thread.

I really don't get why you have to readjust your eyes. I think I'm missing something here, so please explain.
Also, if I shrink it anymore, Chris Jericho won't look like the god that he is, but some distorted freak.

 

[The Milk Monster]

The stage hazards don't really bothered me, and I just mentioned the ones he mentioned.
The only stages that really kill us because of the stage are Distant Planet(But thats still getting hit into the hazard.), and whatever else, someone else add more in, too lazy and cold.

 

[EmperorB-rad2kj]

Well i just like to say that it can be a hazard appearance from anywhere. For example pictochat or norfair. There is no chance of knowing wat happens next a missle, spikes, flameballs etc. Anything can appear at any time. You might try to recover & get hit by a missle or flameball. it can be the stage or player that little slant may appear and u die. Or if ur on the offensive trying to spike some1 and springs appear. It can be either you or the stages fault. Same with items could roll into an offscreen bomb-omb and it's not your fault.

 

[The_Altrox]

I don't like Pictochat on the list though. The obstacles come without warning. I guess you have to guess the time...

 

[Deoxys]

I don't like Pictochat on the list though. The obstacles come without warning. I guess you have to guess the time...

They come at specific times.

Well i just like to say that it can be a hazard appearance from anywhere. For example pictochat or norfair. There is no chance of knowing wat happens next a missle, spikes, flameballs etc. Anything can appear at any time. You might try to recover & get hit by a missle or flameball. it can be the stage or player that little slant may appear and u die. Or if ur on the offensive trying to spike some1 and springs appear. It can be either you or the stages fault. Same with items could roll into an offscreen bomb-omb and it's not your fault.

Parts of Norfair are predictable. It always starts the same way, for instance.