Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[HYRULESHERO42]

Yeah but looking at our trend of newcomers 3rd parties generate the most attention. Also Geno is 3rd party.

Is geno 3rd party? I’ve never seen that debate come to a conclusion. Thank you for the info

 

[PeridotGX]

I'd say Smash Ultimate wins a fight in that it's probably the most ambitious and impressive crossover game of all time.


Not like it has a lot of competition outside of Marvel vs Capcom, or SNK vs Capcom.

Smash is definitely the best mega-crossover, but there's another elephant in the ring

Collaborations

Collaborations (referred to as Collabs by fans) are official crossovers of other media outside of the Fortnite brand being introduced into the game. The first official Collaboration occurred in the Search for Survivors event in Fortnite: Save the World, and the first Collaboration in Battle...

fortnite.fandom.com

 

[SKX31]

True, but on the other hand I feel like the 4 newcomers could have used... a little less experimentation, dare I say. Mac's gameplan sounds interesting on paper, but it just doesn't work in reality. And I love Shulk and XC1, yet I can't play him to save my life because they gave him some weird gimmick instead of using a playstyle more akin to what he used in his original game.

If anything, I think they should experiment with new first party series. It can't hurt to look beyond what's in the current console generation or the previous one.

I didn't consider in this initially, but damn you hit the nail on the head when it comes to him.

The idea between Monado Arts switching is fine in concept - and I personally don't mind the execution, especially since the ring menu made it much easier. But it kinda bothers me that Monado Arts is one of the most difficult things to even get to an intermediate level with. Some arts are straightforward (Buster, Smash) but Speed, Jump and Shield are definetely not. Managing the arts also takes some learning and getting used to, especially with the deliberately inconsistent duration and cooldown timers (10 secs /14 secs for Buster, 8 / 16 for Speed and Smash and 6 / 18 for Jump and Shield).

And that's not getting into advanced techs like Dial Storage or switching to Shield in hitstun.

I'm not trying to say "Just simplify this character" - but kinda think that there could be some more finetuning and QoL features to help people get used to him. Small sparks when an Art comes back off cooldown, for example. I'm not sure how to re-balance / re-work him since he's one of those characters who is very effective in skilled hands but doesn't seem to be intuitive at lower levels.

As an aside, I commend Shulk mains for sticking with him because... what the ****.

Then again, there was a hilarious bug back during Ultimate's release window (sadly they patched this with 2.0):

"There's currently a Shulk bug that gives him all Monado arts at the same time"

"So *this* is the Monado's power."https://t.co/J9WrscSV2H pic.twitter.com/sfx4DedjDm

— 苏州外围/杭州外围/广州资源/深圳上门/上海外围/合肥学生/厦门资源/成都资源/重庆上门/北京上门 (@smashreddit_txt) December 15, 2018

I imagine it's in the works, it's probably just not ready to show yet.

With how much merch there is of Sora already, I'd be floored to see them skip an amiibo. Time will tell, but it's something they could just drop on social media sometime around December/January.

I'm curious how long balance patches will last, though. Didn't they dry up on Sm4sh pretty quick after Bayo?

They did, but I imagine that had a lot to do with Ultimate being worked on as well. Also, the 1.1.6 patch (May 20th 2016, two months after 1.1.5) was just Bayo nerfs - leading me to kinda suspect that they weren't planning on doing that patch initially. Smash 4 saw just 3 months worth of post-DLC balance patches, and only one that was for the entire cast.

It's one reason I'm personally hoping that they'll do at least 2-3 cast-wide balance patches.
They did release a 1.1.7 patch (July 18th 2017) just to add amiibo support for , and , which means that amiibo patches may continue after they release the last balance patch. Although we'll simply have to see on that front.

Forget all first-parties, I could make a roster just of ATs that I'd be extremely happy with.

I'm not claiming this would be more hype than a bunch of big name third-parties, but I'd love it.
And yes, I know there are third-parties here.

We're doing AT promotions now?

I'll happily take Krystal, Alucard, Zero, Waluigi and Midna, although I'd honestly be fine with most if not any AT upgrades.

Oh yeah, right. Almost forgot:

One of the best possible AT upgrades IMHO since it:

1) Is just so goddamn happy and endearing, like whenever it exits.
2) Has some really interesting moveset potential.
3) Has a really memorable Spirit fight (for some wrong reasons, yes, like it being possible for multiple Sukapons to run around and toss you to kingdom come given enough time, but still a fun one).

 

[subterrestrial]

I wouldn't contend an argument that Smash Ultimate is undoubtably one of the most impressive video games ever made.

Lmao, that's a good way to put it.

 

[BlazGreen]

Ultimate scratched my first party villain itch but there's still so many they could add.

Skull Kid
Porky
Hades
Malos
Marx
King Boo
Black Shadow

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Genuine question, like for serious

Is Fortnite or SSBU the better crossover?

Fortnite has much further reach with its crossovers but Smash uses the crossover aspect much more deeply

Smash Bros. easily. Not knowledgeable on Fortnite but aren't those "crossover" characters basically just alternate skins/costumes rather then the characters themselves?

 

[HYRULESHERO42]

Idk man, I don't see anyone on the planet popping off over **** like, Komurasaki or Donbe and Hikari over Cloud ****ing Strife or even smaller characters like Terry. I wouldn't even call your examples bottom of the barrel even if you're saying a third party would be good as they're not third party somehow.

I dunno man, considering I don’t care for final fantasy and hadn’t even heard of fatal fury until terry was revealed - yeah I’d take donbe and hikari in a heartbeat. I’m much more interested in Nintendo history than any 3rd party

 

[subterrestrial]

Ultimate scratched my first party villain itch but there's still so many they could add.

Skull Kid
Porky
Hades
Malos
Marx
King Boo
Black Shadow

literally every single one of them would be fantastic additions

 

[MooMew64]

Forget all first-parties, I could make a roster just of ATs that I'd be extremely happy with.

I'm not claiming this would be more hype than a bunch of big name third-parties, but I'd love it.
And yes, I know there are third-parties here.

Honestly, any of these becoming playable would be hype. if I had to pick like, a top three though...

1. Waluigi
2. Midna
3. Ashley

 

[Nemuresu]

I'll just stand by what Reggie said almost 3 years ago:

"Super Smash Brothers Ultimate is the biggest crossover in video game history, dare I say: the biggest crossover in entertainment."

 

[Rie Sonomura]

I don't think the first party well is dry. Here's a roster of 40 potential options. This isn't even a comprehensive list.View attachment 333514

I’d throw Ayumi Tachibana in as well

 

[cashregister9]

When it comes to assist promotions I would promote

1. Tiki
2. Ashley
3. Nikki

 

[Dinoman96]

Is geno 3rd party? I’ve never seen that debate come to a conclusion. Thank you for the info

He's fully owned by Square Enix, yes.

It's pretty shocking Square was able to retain the rights to their Mario RPG characters, you'd think all of that would be owned by Nintendo (see: Rare's DK and Star Fox/Dinosaur Planet characters). It's especially shocking when you consider how all over the place the copyrights for their games are, like how Disney owns Kingdom Hearts in its entirety, or how Sugiyama owns Dragon Quest's music.

 

[N3ON]

I'd say Smash Ultimate wins a fight in that it's probably the most ambitious and impressive crossover game of all time.


Not like it has a lot of competition outside of Marvel vs Capcom, or SNK vs Capcom.

Or DreamMix TV World Fighters

Genuine question, like for serious

Is Fortnite or SSBU the better crossover?

Fortnite has much further reach with its crossovers but Smash uses the crossover aspect much more deeply

You could make the argument for either I guess but remember that, as skins, the extent of the character implementation in Fortnite is about the same as a Mii costume.

I'll just stand by what Reggie said almost 3 years ago:

"Super Smash Brothers Ultimate is the biggest crossover in video game history, dare I say: the biggest crossover in entertainment."

And I still stand by what Reggie said nine years ago:

 

[HYRULESHERO42]

View attachment 333517
He's fully owned by Square Enix, yes.

It's pretty shocking Square was able to retain the rights to their Mario RPG characters, you'd think all of that would be owned by Nintendo (see: Rare's DK and Star Fox/Dinosaur Planet characters). It's especially shocking when you consider how all over the place the copyrights for their games are, like how Disney owns Kingdom Hearts in its entirety, or how Sugiyama owns Dragon Quest's music.

Huh, that’s a weirdly specific image haha

 

[ZelDan]

There are a plethora of terrific, cool, and interesting first party options left to pick from for the future Smash game.

If there's one thing I despised about Smash ultimate speculation, its how the whole "FiRsT PaRtIeS aRe UnHyPe AnD BoTtOm Of ThE BaRrEL" mindet really started and grew throughout the DLC cycle. In an ideal world the mindset would die off between now and the next Smash game.

 

[N3ON]

We're doing AT promotions now?

I'll happily take Krystal, Alucard, Zero, Waluigi and Midna, although I'd honestly be fine with most if not any AT upgrades.

Oh yeah, right. Almost forgot:

One of the best possible AT upgrades IMHO since it:

1) Is just so goddamn happy and endearing, like whenever it exits.
2) Has some really interesting moveset potential.
3) Has a really memorable Spirit fight (for some wrong reasons, yes, like it being possible for multiple Sukapons to run around and toss you to kingdom come given enough time, but still a fun one).

Sukapon is great. Too bad the very late stage Famicom game hindered the future of the series, and Sakurai's comments against Sukapon's chances pretty much ended his once-notable popularity. During the Brawl era he was actually a fairly common suggestion.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

There are a plethora of terrific, cool, and interesting first party options left to pick from for the future Smash game.

If there's one thing I despised about Smash ultimate speculation, its how the whole "FiRsT PaRtIeS aRe UnHyPe AnD BoTtOm Of ThE BaRrEL" mindet really started and grew throughout the DLC cycle. In an ideal world the mindset would die off between now and the next Smash game.

Once we get to the next game's base roster and all the Assist Trophies and Mii Costumes are back on the table, we'll definitely see a bunch of first party character's bases swell up to the size they were during Ultimate's base speculation.

 

[Dinoman96]

I guess the issue is...how many of the commonly suggested first party picks are actually gonna have a shot next time around?

Like will Golden Sun be miraculously revived by the time the next Smash starts development? Will Star Fox finally break out of the SF/SF64 nostalgia prison it's been stuck in after 2006 and bring back Krystal? Are they really gonna go back and add older Fire Emblem characters like Lyn and Edelgard when there will be the new hotness from the newest game by then? Stuff like that...

I'm not really a fan of his still, but I'm been kinda slowly accepting Waluigi's odds of getting next time because of his popularity and long standing presence (even if it's just in spin-off games...). I could see Tom Nook and Octolings getting in too as semi-clones with how popular Splatoon and Animal Crossing have become. Ring Fit Adventure also looks to be a promising big new IP for EPD, and obviously there's gonna be the obligatory new Pokemon and Fire Emblem dudes we'll have to deal with. But outside of those, I don't know.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

I'm not really a fan of his still, but I'm been kinda slowly accepting Waluigi's odds of getting next time because of his popularity. I could see Tom Nook and Octolings getting in too as semi-clones with how popular Splatoon and Animal Crossing have become. Ring Fit Adventure also looks to be a promising big new IP for EPD, and obviously there's gonna be the obligatory new Pokemon and Fire Emblem dudes we'll have to deal with. But outside of those, I don't know.

We are also certainly getting the Xenoblade 3 protagonist.

 

[HYRULESHERO42]

I guess the issue is...how many of the commonly suggested first party picks are actually gonna have a shot next time around?
…
But outside of those, I don't know.

I think in terms of previously unrepresented series finally getting a spotlight (Advance Wars). And of course the retro revival picks(Mach Rider). Plus oddballs (F-Type from Stunt Race Fx). There are definitely some creative options

 

[Rie Sonomura]

F-Zero should really get another rep tbh

 

[N3ON]

I mean, first-parties dominated Smash in its first... fifteen years of existence? And I was there since pretty much the beginning with the N64. Smash and Nintendo are inextricably linked, and a lot of the people who came to the series did so based on being Nintendo fans. I'm thrilled we get big third-party names in Smash now, it makes its accomplishments and stature all the more impressive, but... it's gonna take basically every first-party I even kind of like to get in for me to spurn further first-party attention.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

F-Zero should really get another rep tbh

The only question is who?

Think it comes down to Black Shadow and Samurai Goroh.

 

[N3ON]

The only question is who?

Think it comes down to Black Shadow and Samurai Goroh.

I think it's apparent from the way Sakurai treats the series that the next character, unless they were a clone, would be Goroh.

 

[Idon]

F-Zero should really get another rep tbh

The only thing F-Zero really should get is another game. Then we can talk about adding more racers.

 

[toonito]

I guess the issue is...how many of the commonly suggested first party picks are actually gonna have a shot next time around?

Like will Golden Sun be miraculously revived by the time the next Smash starts development? Will Star Fox finally break out of the SF/SF64 nostalgia prison it's been stuck in after 2006 and bring back Krystal? Are they really gonna go back and add older Fire Emblem characters like Lyn and Edelgard when there will be the new hotness from the newest game by then? Stuff like that...

I'm not really a fan of his still, but I'm been kinda slowly accepting Waluigi's odds of getting next time because of his popularity and long standing presence (even if it's just in spin-off games...). I could see Tom Nook and Octolings getting in too as semi-clones with how popular Splatoon and Animal Crossing have become. Ring Fit Adventure also looks to be a promising big new IP for EPD, and obviously there's gonna be the obligatory new Pokemon and Fire Emblem dudes we'll have to deal with. But outside of those, I don't know.

IMO

Golden Sun: possible promotion
Star Fox: not likely
Fire Emblem: possibly add an older character ala Chrom (Lyn or Tiki?) ; definitely adding a new rep
Waluigi: likely; Sakurai tends to give fans what they want maybe not always right away but eventually. I still have some doubts though
Tom Nook/AC: possible
Octolings: likely a semiclone
Xenoblade: likely
Astral Chain: possible
Ring Fit: I'll be surprised if they don't make it
Pokemon: yup Gen 9

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I would like to preface this post with the following- I am not intending to make this into a gigantic “I told you so”.

From the first wave of Ultimate DLC, there were arguments being made that 3rd parties would dominate DLC as they had demonstrably had done during WiiU/3DS. There were a lot of arguments around spirit events, upgrades of spirits and assist trophies, etc.

I recall, in fact, a time at which the announcement of Min Min was interpreted two different ways. They were:

1) Upgrades were happening and we would get a first party focused pass

or

2) ARMS being one of the upgrades actually had different implications for upgrades

This was touched upon again with Pyra/Mythra, however. The same argument came up, however if I remember correctly it felt weakened due to the fact that Xenoblade 2 was the other game suggested by Sakurai that “just missed the boat” for base game. This continued to feed the idea that those picks were planned ahead of time and were specifically chosen…not just as upgrades, but due to them being from high-priority Switch exclusives that promoted the console generation.

Byleth was another such situation. Three Houses hadn’t received a Spirit Event, which aroused suspicion. It was another character chosen from a high-priority Switch exclusive game. This didn’t match several of the other 1st party characters people suggested would be upgraded.

Now, that isn’t to say that 1st parties are intrinsically inferior to non-Nintendo characters, but I don’t think anyone could argue that the outcome wasn’t epic to some extent. Sora, owned by Disney; Minecraft Steve and Banjo, owned by Microsoft. Some of the biggest characters in gaming were added in DLC, and the scope of what is considered the “biggest crossover in gaming history” continues to redefine itself.

On the flip side, is the fact that much of the population of Smash fans are highly based in Nintendo games. I was once that way too, and I too once highly preferred Nintendo over 3rd parties. But it seems pretty clear the desire of Sakurai, and even Iwata (bless that man) was to make this game the biggest, and greatest, it could be. It’s clear that the feedback obtained from the Ballot was taken seriously- after all, I believe much of that is what led to Ultimate’s roster.

I still feel Joker and Terry are picks Sakurai had more choice on (given the interest/important to Sakurai for both series).

Overall, the best way to appreciate those characters is to play more games when you are able. Metal Gear was my first dive into what I would have considered “non-Nintendo” like games.

Yeah that spun-out into a Jonespost. Oops.

 

[Nemuresu]

There are a plethora of terrific, cool, and interesting first party options left to pick from for the future Smash game.

If there's one thing I despised about Smash ultimate speculation, its how the whole "FiRsT PaRtIeS aRe UnHyPe AnD BoTtOm Of ThE BaRrEL" mindet really started and grew throughout the DLC cycle. In an ideal world the mindset would die off between now and the next Smash game.

To be fair, when 2/3 out of the full DLC lineup are third-parties, you can't expect people to favor Nintendo's own characters over the guests with bigger drawing power.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I guess the issue is...how many of the commonly suggested first party picks are actually gonna have a shot next time around?

Like will Golden Sun be miraculously revived by the time the next Smash starts development? Will Star Fox finally break out of the SF/SF64 nostalgia prison it's been stuck in after 2006 and bring back Krystal? Are they really gonna go back and add older Fire Emblem characters like Lyn and Edelgard when there will be the new hotness from the newest game by then? Stuff like that...

I'm not really a fan of his still, but I'm been kinda slowly accepting Waluigi's odds of getting next time because of his popularity and long standing presence (even if it's just in spin-off games...). I could see Tom Nook and Octolings getting in too as semi-clones with how popular Splatoon and Animal Crossing have become. Ring Fit Adventure also looks to be a promising big new IP for EPD, and obviously there's gonna be the obligatory new Pokemon and Fire Emblem dudes we'll have to deal with. But outside of those, I don't know.

If "only third parties and recent first parties for DLC" is true, you have to remember the "for DLC" part. The two Smash games that established this apparent rule did not solely stick to the newest first parties for base game picks, even with Smash 4 being "that game where all the Nintendo newcomers are shill picks".

 

[toonito]

I would like to preface this post with the following- I am not intending to make this into a gigantic “I told you so”.

From the first wave of Ultimate DLC, there were arguments being made that 3rd parties would dominate DLC as they had demonstrably had done during WiiU/3DS. There were a lot of arguments around spirit events, upgrades of spirits and assist trophies, etc.

I recall, in fact, a time at which the announcement of Min Min was interpreted two different ways. They were:

1) Upgrades were happening and we would get a first party focused pass

or

2) ARMS being one of the upgrades actually had different implications for upgrades

This was touched upon again with Pyra/Mythra, however. The same argument came up, however if I remember correctly it felt weakened due to the fact that Xenoblade 2 was the other game suggested by Sakurai that “just missed the boat” for base game. This continued to feed the idea that those picks were planned ahead of time and were specifically chosen…not just as upgrades, but due to them being from high-priority Switch exclusives that promoted the console generation.

Byleth was another such situation. Three Houses hadn’t received a Spirit Event, which aroused suspicion. It was another character chosen from a high-priority Switch exclusive game. This didn’t match several of the other 1st party characters people suggested would be upgraded.

Now, that isn’t to say that 1st parties are intrinsically inferior to non-Nintendo characters, but I don’t think anyone could argue that the outcome wasn’t epic to some extent. Sora, owned by Disney; Minecraft Steve and Banjo, owned by Microsoft. Some of the biggest characters in gaming were added in DLC, and the scope of what is considered the “biggest crossover in gaming history” continues to redefine itself.

On the flip side, is the fact that much of the population of Smash fans are highly based in Nintendo games. I was once that way too, and I too once highly preferred Nintendo over 3rd parties. But it seems pretty clear the desire of Sakurai, and even Iwata (bless that man) was to make this game the biggest, and greatest, it could be. It’s clear that the feedback obtained from the Ballot was taken seriously- after all, I believe much of that is what led to Ultimate’s roster.

I still feel Joker and Terry are picks Sakurai had more choice on (given the interest/important to Sakurai for both series).

Overall, the best way to appreciate those characters is to play more games when you are able. Metal Gear was my first dive into what I would have considered “non-Nintendo” like games.

Yeah that spun-out into a Jonespost. Oops.

I'd go as far and say Smash wouldn't have reached the popularity it has if it stayed Nintendo-only. There's a timeline in which from Snake to Sora never appeared in Smash and I think the games would suffer from the lost potential.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I'd go as far and say Smash wouldn't have reached the popularity it has if it stayed Nintendo-only. There's a timeline in which from Snake to Sora never appeared in Smash and I think the games would suffer from the lost potential.

I'm not saying "NO THIRD PARTIES EVER", but to be fair, smaller fanbases tend to be more chill than bigger ones anyway. Hell, Smash's fanbase wasn't small by any means anyway-it was already selling several million for both the N64 game and Melee.

 

[HYRULESHERO42]

I'd go as far and say Smash wouldn't have reached the popularity it has if it stayed Nintendo-only. There's a timeline in which from Snake to Sora never appeared in Smash and I think the games would suffer from the lost potential.

I can’t imagine Smash wouldn’t sell if it remained strictly 1st party. It still draws fans from all different Nintendo properties to one place, that wouldn’t change

 

[Guynamednelson]

I can’t imagine Smash wouldn’t sell if it remained strictly 1st party. It still draws fans from all different Nintendo properties to one place, that wouldn’t change

I bet even if Brawl only had one third-party newcomer or none at all, it would still outsell Melee. Because it was on the Wii. Smash 4 on the other hand...

 

[toonito]

I'm not saying "NO THIRD PARTIES EVER", but to be fair, smaller fanbases tend to be more chill than bigger ones anyway. Hell, Smash's fanbase wasn't small by any means anyway-it was already selling several million for both the N64 game and Melee.

I'm not saying Smash wouldn't be popular without 3rd parties but I absolutely believe that it wouldn't have become the gaming juggernaut it is now without them.

 

[N3ON]

To be fair, when 2/3 out of the full DLC lineup are third-parties, you can't expect people to favor Nintendo's own characters over the guests with bigger drawing power.

The popularly discussed characters are going to largely reflect whatever recently transpired. Before E3 2018, people were highly focused on recent Nintendo characters like Rex, Spring-Man, and Gen 7. Then when characters like Ridley, Snake and Wolf showed up, people started shifting to focus on favourites like K. Rool, Isaac, Geno, Ashley, etc. Then when Sakurai announced that Nintendo was choosing the DLC, discussion shifted to feasibly promotional characters like the first group and FE and whatnot. Then we got Joker and kept getting third-parties, so people focused on those to the exclusion of first-parties.

The fanbase is highly sensitive to basically whatever is the most recent development, and whoever is in the limelight will sort of shift to accommodate that. So yes, when 2/3 of the DLC is general third-parties, third-parties will be a big part of the discussion and chart highly on polls. But look at the base phase; the focus was more on fan-favourites, so those were the characters favoured both in discussion and on polls. Even most of the third-parties discussed during that time weren't those with the highest amount of drawing power, what with Banjo, Geno, Shantae, etc.

Basically, the fanbase is a goldfish.

 

[Dinoman96]

I think in terms of previously unrepresented series finally getting a spotlight (Advance Wars). And of course the retro revival picks(Mach Rider). Plus oddballs (F-Type from Stunt Race Fx). There are definitely some creative options

I guess Advance Wars could have a shot if the remakes come out in Japan and are also generally successful enough to lead to an all new installment (same thing with Ayumi/FDC).

Said this many, many times but I think Piranha Plant has officially put the "retro revival" pattern to bed. Per Sakurai's words, Ice Climbers are still the only characters that were included for the sake of having an old NES era character. Everyone since then got put in because of fan demand (Pit) or are really meant to be "surprise characters" (Mr. Game & Watch, R.O.B, Duck Hunt) and Piranha Plant is Ultimate's equivalent to the latter. At this point I don't think most of the remaining retro picks like Mach Rider are significant or popular enough to get a spot in Smash.

 

[Eldrake]

Forget all first-parties, I could make a roster just of ATs that I'd be extremely happy with.

I'm not claiming this would be more hype than a bunch of big name third-parties, but I'd love it.
And yes, I know there are third-parties here.

I'd be happy with Midna. Twilight Princess is one of my favorite Zelda games.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I'm not saying Smash wouldn't be popular without 3rd parties but I absolutely believe that it wouldn't have become the gaming juggernaut it is now without them.

Maybe not, but it'd still have a vocal fanbase and several million units sold per game. Sometimes, that's just good enough, not every game needs CoD sales (and judging by the CoD fanbase's reputation combined with how Smash fans have gotten these past couple of years, that's probably a good thing.)

 

[Dinoman96]

even with Smash 4 being "that game where all the Nintendo newcomers are shill picks".

I mean Smash 4 pretty much was entirely based on what was new and popular in the world of Nintendo back in early 2012. Duck Hunt, the game's surprise character, was the one and only first party newcomer whose inclusion wasn't based on a new released Wii/3DS game.