Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[Noipoi]

Fixed. Also applies to Super Monkey Ball Banana Mania, Mario Party Superstars and Advance Wars Reboot Camp.

Hey, I already brought it.

I’m not even a Metroid fan, I just don’t want the series to go away for another decade cuz it’s sold poorly again.

 

[Sucumbio]

And if you wanna get REALLY technical, Wolfenstein 3D still isn't the first FPS. Maybe the first mainstream FPS, but the mainstream still vastly preferred levels that looked more like detailed space-stations and less like primitive, blocky mazes.

Yep. The very first fps was maze war which started as a fluid dynamics experiment and involved multi play over arpanet lol

 

[SharkLord]

While I understand the representation of color argument, (and I realize I have a certain privilege as a straight white male in this conversation, so let me be clear there) I feel it’s less a problem with Nintendo/Sakurai and more of an issue with the industry.

Only recently have newer games started more explicit representation of non-white characters. Having recently played DeathLoop myself, it blows my mind that it’s one of the first games to TRULY have avast headlined by two black people, which is great! But by no means is this is a widespread phenomenon just yet.

Historically, there are very few non-white characters, either from Nintendo or not from Nintendo. To go further, the amount of “main characters” of color, there are few, if any, that would be in the running within commonly speculated series and what not.

Now, there are quite a few Asian characters, not just by creation, but by nationality. Min Min, Ryu, Joker…these are just a few.

I feel like Twintelle was the closest we would have gotten, and Min Min was the pick based on Yabuki. I can’t blame the man, given she is his favorite of the cast.

Basically, I totally see the argument and think it’s valid- but I don’t necessarily agree that Smash is the problem. The problem is the industry itself and that it only recently has truly been creating new, excellent characters of color, etc. I can only hope that things continue to open up in that regard. Honestly I hope DeathLoop was a big step to that eventual reality. It’s a great game btw.

Yeah, I feel this way too. The two main game industries are the West - Which is predominantly white - And Japan, which is ethnically homogenous and mainly represents Japan (Or some non-distinct medieval European setting in the case of fantasy games). Smash doesn't make new characters, it just adds pre-existing characters, usually because they're either popular or Nintendo wants to make them popular, so it's up to the industry to add more diversity for Smash to integrate. I mean, yeah, Smash could try and seek out non-white characters to add, but it doesn't seem like that's one of their main reasons for adding reps (Likely because Japan's a pretty homogenous country ethnicity-wise and doesn't look at race and diversity the same way, as Momotsuki mentioned). So again, it mainly relies on Nintendo and the other big game companies adding more diversity to their games to be represented in Smash.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I dunno. I do love the third party franchises brought into Smash.

But without a focus on Nintendo, I do feel like something is lost. Part of what gives the franchise its soul.

I definitely don't want to stop them from adding third party characters, but there are still so many good Nintendo ones too.

It just feels kind of sad to see really cool Nintendo characters passed over because they aren't third party. Its gotten to the point where even when we do get cool Nintendo characters, they're looked down on unless they're at the level of Ridley and K. Rool.

I'm starting to hear that Inkling is a boring choice now or that Isabelle isn't a big deal. It boggles mind mind. Let alone reactions to more niche characters like Chrom, Dark Samus, Min Min and Pyra/Mythra.

I like that Smash is expanding its horizons, but I don't like the fandom's change in personality.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Isabelle isn't a big deal

I've heard the idea she isn't a big deal ever since she was confirmed.

 

[Shroob]

I dunno. I do love the third party franchises brought into Smash.

But without a focus on Nintendo, I do feel like something is lost. Part of what gives the franchise its soul.

I definitely don't want to stop them from adding third party characters, but there are still so many good Nintendo ones too.

It just feels kind of sad fo see really cool Nintendo characters passed over because they aren't third party. Its gotten to the point where even when we do get cool Nintendo characters, they're looked down on unless they're at the level of Ridley and K. Rool.

I'm starting to hear that Inkling is a boring choice now or that Isabelle isn't a big deal. It boggles mind mind. Let alone reactions to more niche characters like Chrom, Dark Samus, Min Min and Pyra/Mythra.

I like that Smash is expanding its horizons, but I don't like the fandom's change in personality.

To be fair, people were, ahem, dogging, on Isabelle back then too. The September Direct being delayed + a pretty low key reveal trailer, while fitting for her, didn't really excite a lot of people.



I think Isabelle's great and 100% deserves her spot, but Isabelle indifference isn't new.

 

[DarthEnderX]

You can't have political correctness in EVERYTHING.

You can on ResetEra. It's literally what people go there for.

You know what's just as tiresome as ResetEra? People complaining about ResetEra. Everyone knows what the deal is there. If that's not for you, stop wasting your time looking up their takes.

And if you go there looking for those takes to complain about them, it doesn't read like a reasonable person being over extreme liberal bias, it reads as a gamergate ****wad looking for ammo that they can fire at "those damn SJWs" they hate so much.

 

[DarkFalcon]

I do like 3rd parties, and Ultimate especially is a celebration of gaming as much as Nintendo, but in the future when we inevitably have to cut down I don't want them to skim over 1st party characters when choosing who to add.

Almost feels like we went wrong somewhere because people get disappointed with 1st party reps because they aren't the ultra mega XTREME 3rd party character.

 

[Shroob]

I do like 3rd parties, and Ultimate especially is a celebration of gaming as much as Nintendo, but in the future when we inevitably have to cut down I don't want them to skim over 1st party characters when choosing who to add.

Almost feels like we went wrong somewhere because people get disappointed with 1st party reps because they aren't the ultra mega XTREME 3rd party character.

I think it's more just that once you start getting juggernauts like Steve, Sephiroth and Sora, the bar gets to a point where the question is how do 1st parties even compare?


Like, base game discussion was FULL of 1st party discussion, and tbh, FP1 felt like it would have been the perfect place for more 1st parties since it was more low key compared to FP2


But then FP2 happened and 3 of the 4 3rd parties were just "Holy **** HOW"

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I do like 3rd parties, and Ultimate especially is a celebration of gaming as much as Nintendo, but in the future when we inevitably have to cut down I don't want them to skim over 1st party characters when choosing who to add.

Almost feels like we went wrong somewhere because people get disappointed with 1st party reps because they aren't the ultra mega XTREME 3rd party character.

Sometimes, you get so big, that you can't appreciate the small stuff anymore.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I think it's more just that once you start getting juggernauts like Steve, Sephiroth and Sora, the bar gets to a point where the question is how do 1st parties even compare?

And there lies another issue: The pool of juggernauts isn't infinite. Even if we are able to get several in a row next game, that doesn't mean you can keep your standards high forever.

 

[Brother AJ]

This thread deserves all the attention it's getting and more:

https://twitter.com/ChongoTweet/status/1445527007513616386?t=APtK6J9-FUagvBoU_34noA&s=19

I'm overjoyed that there are so many of us that were touched by Sora's trailer. Obviously it was more than just about him. Truly a magnificent experience and end to a remarkable game.

 

[Nekoo]

I think, it's more like, even as First Parties goes, just in the scope of first parties, we were starting to scrap the bottom of the barrel if it wasn't for Splatoon success as an IP.
Like, I'd like Vlad/Isaac in smash... But it's hard to imagine him having many people excited beside the smash community and hardcore Nintendo fans.
Which, while they're important, the "legacy/dormant series" characters would just make way too many people, and anyone born after 2008 Scratch their head in confusion.

 

[Dinoman96]

Yeah it can be said that Nintendo really has devalued excitement and interest for their own IP to be present in Smash Bros. Juxtaposing someone like Byleth against Banjo & Kazooie, Sephiroth, Sora, etc is a huge contributing factor into people becoming more uninterested in what Nintendo has to offer.

 

[DarkFalcon]

I think it's more just that once you start getting juggernauts like Steve, Sephiroth and Sora, the bar gets to a point where the question is how do 1st parties even compare?


Like, base game discussion was FULL of 1st party discussion, and tbh, FP1 felt like it would have been the perfect place for more 1st parties since it was more low key compared to FP2


But then FP2 happened and 3 of the 4 3rd parties were just "Holy **** HOW"

I get it, I do, but it feels pretty disappointing when you want more 1st party and the immediate reaction towards that is negative.

Several of my most exciting DLC picks were even 3rd party. Banjo, Sephiroth, Sora, but my most exciting was Pyra/Mythra and it makes me sad seeing a franchise like Xenoblade getting a 2nd rep being kinda shunned. Obviously it wasn't near the levels of Byleth but even then it's unfortunate.

 

[Guynamednelson]

But it's hard to imagine him having many people excited beside the smash community and hardcore Nintendo fans.

If characters need to excite everyone we wouldn't have a one-two punch of Byleth and Min Min before we got Steve and Sephiroth.

 

[Nemuresu]

And there lies another issue: The pool of juggernauts isn't infinite. Even if we are able to get several in a row next game, that doesn't mean you can keep your standards high forever.

Tales
Resident Evil
Devil May Cry
Final Fantasy games outside of VII
Puyo Puyo
Halo
Doom
Yakuza
Fate
Ninja Gaiden
Ghosts N' Goblins
Getting characters from the already-stablished franchises like Chun-Li or Shadow
I don't know, that doesn't look like very little to me, and certainly looks like a bigger pool when compared to what newcomers Nintendo themselves have offered in this game.

 

[PeridotGX]

I think, it's more like, even as First Parties goes, just in the scope of first parties, we were starting to scrap the bottom of the barrel if it wasn't for Splatoon success as an IP.
Like, I'd like Vlad/Isaac in smash... But it's hard to imagine him having many people excited beside the smash community and hardcore Nintendo fans.
Which, while they're important, the "legacy/dormant series" characters would just make way too many people, and anyone born after 2008 Scratch their head in confusion.

Does every character need to be a megaton?

 

[Nekoo]

If characters need to excite everyone we wouldn't have a one-two punch of Byleth and Min Min before we got Steve and Sephiroth.

It's nice to quote the sentence without the context of me talking specifically about Legacy characters, that a wildly demanded in the community.
I have nothing about Min-min (except her competitive nature) and Pyra Mythra (Sword boobies are bae.). They were great inclusion

 

[PLATINUM7]

Yeah it can be said that Nintendo really has devalued excitement and interest for their own IP to be present in Smash Bros. Juxtaposing someone like Byleth against Banjo & Kazooie, Sephiroth, Sora, etc is a huge contributing factor into people becoming more uninterested in what Nintendo has to offer.

If I were to look at the DLC I can see that. Base game, however, it seems at least here getting first party characters like Ridley and K. Rool were just as exciting as third party characters and even everyone is here.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Does every character need to be a megaton?

Yes, otherwise Nintendo will disappear forever and Smash will only sell 1 copy total.

 

[Nekoo]

Everyone quoting my answer when I'm talking about Legacy characters as if I was asking for a Sora every reveal

You guys. Why?

 

[Shroob]

If characters need to excite everyone we wouldn't have a one-two punch of Byleth and Min Min before we got Steve and Sephiroth.

I still stand by the fact that Byleth, Min Min and the Aegis are here to primarily help Smash from not feeling dated, which is frankly why I never expected any non-recent 1st party character to begin with.


Smash Ult launched with 0 Switch-Era characters and 3 stages from the Switch, characters like Byleth, Min Min and Pythra helped keep Smash feeling "new" in regards to Nintendo content.

 

[HYRULESHERO42]

I keep seeing the phrase “bottom of the barrel” being used - do we forget that several characters are only popular and in the public eye now because of their inclusion in Smash?
Marth, Ice Climbers, Game&Watch, Pit - all back in the limelight because of smash. So any “bottom of the barrel” pick would instantly elevate with a smash inclusion. Smash is a kingmaker

 

[Guynamednelson]

I still stand by the fact that Byleth, Min Min and the Aegis are here to primarily help Smash from not feeling dated, which is frankly why I never expected any non-recent 1st party character to begin with.


Smash Ult launched with 0 Switch-Era characters and 3 stages from the Switch, characters like Byleth, Min Min and Pythra helped keep Smash feeling "new" in regards to Nintendo content.

Eh, whatever, you were right in the end. I just hope there's more room for Ridleys and K. Rools alongside recent characters in the next game's newcomer lineup, even if I'll be 35 by then.

 

[Nekoo]

I keep seeing the phrase “bottom of the barrel” being used - do we forget that several characters are only popular and in the public eye now because of their inclusion in Smash?
Marth, Ice Climbers, Game&Watch, Pit - all back in the limelight because of smash. So any “bottom of the barrel” pick would instantly elevate with a smash inclusion. Smash is a kingmaker

Yeah, but you're trying to Sell DLC here...
Those inclusion are amazing as base games, but trying to sell them as DLC...I can see it pretty hard as a marketing standpoint.

I know Sakurai's sentence about a characters being fun to play is more important than it being famous.
But sir contradicted himself for the next seven characters

 

[DarkFalcon]

As long as they never cut Ridley we won't have to fight.

 

[DarthEnderX]

For those of you still on the boards, who would you say is your favourite third party character?

for favorite character. for favorite gameplay.

Richter and Simon.... Yeeeeah but I prefer Alucard.

Agreed. But, alas, not a Fighter.

or Doc Louis (we have lil mac. he would make a great second rep)

King Hippo! He's a Pacific Islander.

also, here’s hoping Kyo joins Terry next game…

SV-001 Metal Slug is the superior 2nd SNK rep.

 

[Dinoman96]

If I were to look at the DLC I can see that. Base game, however, it seems at least here getting first party characters like Ridley and K. Rool were just as exciting as third party characters and even everyone is here.

Well yes, but the problem is that there's not very many K. Rool/Ridley tier characters left in that regard. The best we got now is like, Waluigi.

 

[Nemuresu]

I can get if they only bring back Sora, Cloud and the likes as DLC due to licensing and whatnot. But removing Ridley and K. Rool after all the fan demand wouldn't have any real excuse.

 

[Noipoi]

Y’all talking bout bottom of the barrel as if Chibi Robo isn’t right there.

 

[N3ON]

Not gonna argue that their biggest guns aren't already present, but I think they have one normal sized roster's worth of first-party newcomers left before they're really up ****'s creek in terms of somewhat visible choices. Excluding new series and those with rotating casts, ofc.

 

[Shroob]

Marketability probably does play a massive role in the DLC selection as well as Nekoo put it.


Like, base game is 100% the place to put your fan-pleaser 1st parties, while DLC is where you put the ones where you wanna sell games.


Like, of all our 1st party DLC characters ever

Veteran
Veteran
Veteran
New game on a current gen system
New game on a current gen system
New game on a current gen system
New game on a current gen system


It's a small sample size for sure, but it's kinda obvious that unless you're a veteran, Nintendo focuses on 1st party DLC as more of a "Please buy this". I'm not calling them shill picks here, since they also serve the purpose of plugging holes in Smash's roster, but there's definitely a pretty clear indication as how Nintendo views their own DLC IMO.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Yes, but I feel like Nintendo abuses that concept. Look at other fighters with guests-they understand the concept of third parties generating attention, but don't think it means they should take up the majority of DLC.

Other games with guests aren't usually crossover games.

Smash Bros. doesn't HAVE guests. Because a guest character is someone from outside the game's own universe. But in Smash, EVERYONE is from outside the game's own universe. Mario is just as much a guest as Sora.

And when everyone is a guest...no one will be.

 

[PeridotGX]

While we celebrate Ultimate, we need to remember those who didn't make it

...rip

 

[Michael the Spikester]

As long as they never cut Ridley we won't have to fight.

Or

 

[N3ON]

While we celebrate Ultimate, we need to remember those who didn't make it

...rip

gonna need a longer video

 

[Shroob]

While we celebrate Ultimate, we need to remember those who didn't make it

...rip

He had a good run.

 

[Nekoo]

Like, for real. I just realized that we got this line about how a character being fun is more important than it being Famous...And then Sakurai just go

Let's Release Byleth, the protagonist of the most sold Fire Emblem Game Ever and Public's choice as the game of the year instead of stuff like Last of Us.
Let's Release Min-min, the character that won the popularity contest/tournament of ARMS a game that sold two million.
Let's Release Steve, the character of the most sold game of all time and armagedon of his own genre, survival sandbox.
Let's Release Sephiroth, THE anime swordman and legendary Vilain where just his theme make you knows he's coming even when you didn't play his game.
Let's Release Pyra and Mythra, The Bae and Postergirls of Xenoblade 2 (which even if I hate the base game, while Torna was based) which sold like pancakes too.
Let's Release Kazuya, from Tekken 7, at more than 7 millions sales and absolutely legendary as a character that appeared in almost all games.
Let's Release ****ING SORA, the most wanted character, real winner of the ballot, and protagonist who hang out with Donald and Goofy all because of an elevator pitch 20 years ago.

While he's absolutely right.
It didn't help his case

 

[DarkFalcon]

Square seemed pretty generous this game after what we got with Cloud in 4.