Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[Guynamednelson]

I mean Smash 4 pretty much was entirely based on what was new and popular in the world of Nintendo back in early 2012. Duck Hunt, the game's surprise character, was the one and only first party newcomer whose inclusion wasn't based on a new released Wii/3DS game.

Duck Hunt was an exception, but it's better than nothing.

 

[Nemuresu]

The popularly discussed characters are going to largely reflect whatever recently transpired. Before E3 2018, people were highly focused on recent Nintendo characters like Rex, Spring-Man, and Gen 7. Then when characters like Ridley, Snake and Wolf showed up, people started shifting to focus on favourites like K. Rool, Isaac, Geno, Ashley, etc. Then when Sakurai announced that Nintendo was choosing the DLC, discussion shifted to feasibly promotional characters like the first group and FE and whatnot. Then we got Joker and kept getting third-parties, so people focused on those to the exclusion of first-parties.

The fanbase is highly sensitive to basically whatever is the most recent development, and whoever is in the limelight will sort of shift to accommodate that. So yes, when 2/3 of the DLC is general third-parties, third-parties will be a big part of the discussion and chart highly on polls. But look at the base phase; the focus was more on fan-favourites, so those were the characters favoured both in discussion and on polls. Even most of the third-parties discussed during that time weren't those with the highest amount of drawing power, what with Banjo, Geno, Shantae, etc.

Basically, the fanbase is a goldfish.

I don't disagree there at all. I was merely speaking about the DLC cycle starting from Joker and not so much the base phase where, as you say, there was a lot more discussion on first-parties and whatnot.

 

[Shroob]

I 'unno.


I like that Smash really is a "Gaming hall of fame." to a degree.



Is it perfect? No, absolutely not. But if you take Assist Trophies and Mii outfits into account? It's damn close. We got ****ing Pong here.

 

[N3ON]

I don't disagree there at all. I was merely speaking about the DLC cycle starting from Joker and not so much the base phase where, as you say, there was a lot more discussion on first-parties and whatnot.

Gotcha. And things along those lines are why when people dubbed Byleth obvious to show up when they showed up, I can't help but raise an eyebrow. There was so little attention being given to Nintendo after four consecutive third-parties that the consensus was basically the pass would close out with a final third-party and whatever promo additions we did get would eventually follow in whatever form that was to take.

 

[SharkLord]

It's worth noting that "Dolly" might as well be a pun on Terry's full name that only works in Japanese (テリー・ボガード, Teri Bogardo - "Dori" using the Japanese standard of putting last names first, pronounced "Dolly"). So yeah, a lot of potential carnage.

Then again, Dolly's not the only codename I can think of that would've caused carnage had it leaked. Master and Edge in particular come to mind.

Also:

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/q2agtz
He did show it in the demo match, just not individually. FTR, the Dash Attack appears to be a slide kick similar to the Sliding Dash ability in KH1. Appears to be rather similar to 's - both in its animation and knockback angle (then again, given the match was in Stamina I don't wanna put too much stock into this) as well as it having a late hit.

I've seen some people suggest Terry's codename also refers to the dolly of a train, referencing the train that acts as Terry's home stage in some games.

Said train also doesn't seem to be that associated with him and didn't even end up in Smash anyways, so yeah, we're still stuck with carnage regardless.

I do wonder what Sora's codename will be. Though, given Pyra and Mythra, probably just "Sky".

 

[Rie Sonomura]

I've seen some people suggest Terry's codename also refers to the dolly of a train, referencing the train that acts as Terry's home stage in some games.

Said train also doesn't seem to be that associated with him and didn't even end up in Smash anyways, so yeah, we're still stuck with carnage regardless.

I do wonder what Sora's codename will be. Though, given Pyra and Mythra, probably just "Sky".

Doesn’t Terry’s Spirit Board have a gif of a train in the bg?

 

[kylexv]

I imagine Sora's code name is either "sky" since that's what his name translates to, or "dream" because of his status as the dream character and the character that probably took Sakurai and Nintendo the most amount of effort to negotiate.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

I've seen some people suggest Terry's codename also refers to the dolly of a train, referencing the train that acts as Terry's home stage in some games.

Said train also doesn't seem to be that associated with him and didn't even end up in Smash anyways, so yeah, we're still stuck with carnage regardless.

I do wonder what Sora's codename will be. Though, given Pyra and Mythra, probably just "Sky".

Isn’t the train his Spirit Board background?

Edit:’d

 

[Nemuresu]

Doesn’t Terry’s Spirit Board have a gif of a train in the bg?

Yes, it's actually Terry's Fatal Fury 2 stage.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

The timeline in which Nintendo ignores fan demand for Non-Nintendo characters in their wacky wahoo punching game is not the timeline I would want to be reborn in, to be honest.

Like, look, I love Nintendo and it’s a big part of who I am and what I like. But I wouldn’t have nearly the same interests without Smash introducing me to new things. It helped me become more open-minded, to be honest.

Like if you cut Snake, Sonic, Mega Man, Pac-Man, Ryu and Ken, Simon and Richter, Bayo, Cloud, Sephiroth, Sora, Hero, Kazuya, Terry, Steve…

It’s not just Smash sales numbers we’re talking about, we’re talking about those characters bringing further collaborations to Nintendo systems, and greater growth and success. Final Fantasy VII was PROBABLY brought over in relation to Cloud, now we have Kingdom Hearts collections in Cloud-gaming, we have Persona 5 strikers, etc. It goes well beyond just Smash.

Not to mention, 3rd party history can also be Nintendo history. Sonic was Mario’s rival. Big Nintendo history there. Mega Man and Street Fighter were big time hits on Nintendo consoles.

Snake was literally the first to even break the seal of non-Nintendo in Smash.

Otherwise, the others essentially…created new historical moments for Nintendo and the industry. Cloud broke the internet, Sephiroth came pretty close, so on and so forth.

As usual, I suggest playing those games when possible, because if you choose from essentially any of the 3rd party series with a playable character you won’t be disappointed in the quality of the game, I think. I’m willing to give recommendations if anybody is looking!

 

[Dinoman96]

It’s not just Smash sales numbers we’re talking about, we’re talking about those characters bringing further collaborations to Nintendo systems, and greater growth and success. Final Fantasy VII was PROBABLY brought over in relation to Cloud, now we have Kingdom Hearts collections in Cloud-gaming, we have Persona 5 strikers, etc. It goes well beyond just Smash.

Another good example of that is Banjo-Kazooie and possibly other Rare games hittng N64 NSO.

 

[Guynamednelson]

We're just going to have to deal with the fact that no matter what you do, Smash 6 isn't going to appeal to as many people as Ultimate did. Even a port with all DLC won't do that, because there's going to be people who want new content, which will be even harder to add now that we got even more companies on board that they have to spend money relicensing content from, and an even bigger roster to rebalance and bugtest. Sakurai may make miracles happen, but one miracle he couldn't make happen is 15 unique newcomers in the base game alongside all previous veterans and most old stages remodeled.

 

[N3ON]

i just like getting the characters i like, i dont really care who owns them

just happens that they're split fairly evenly

 

[Shroob]

Bottom text

 

[HYRULESHERO42]

The timeline in which Nintendo ignores fan demand for Non-Nintendo characters in their wacky wahoo punching game is not the timeline I would want to be reborn in, to be honest.

Like, look, I love Nintendo and it’s a big part of who I am and what I like. But I wouldn’t have nearly the same interests without Smash introducing me to new things. It helped me become more open-minded, to be honest.

Like if you cut Snake, Sonic, Mega Man, Pac-Man, Ryu and Ken, Simon and Richter, Bayo, Cloud, Sephiroth, Sora, Hero, Kazuya, Terry, Steve…

It’s not just Smash sales numbers we’re talking about, we’re talking about those characters bringing further collaborations to Nintendo systems, and greater growth and success. Final Fantasy VII was PROBABLY brought over in relation to Cloud, now we have Kingdom Hearts collections in Cloud-gaming, we have Persona 5 strikers, etc. It goes well beyond just Smash.

Not to mention, 3rd party history can also be Nintendo history. Sonic was Mario’s rival. Big Nintendo history there. Mega Man and Street Fighter were big time hits on Nintendo consoles.

Snake was literally the first to even break the seal of non-Nintendo in Smash.

Otherwise, the others essentially…created new historical moments for Nintendo and the industry. Cloud broke the internet, Sephiroth came pretty close, so on and so forth.

As usual, I suggest playing those games when possible, because if you choose from essentially any of the 3rd party series with a playable character you won’t be disappointed in the quality of the game, I think. I’m willing to give recommendations if anybody is looking!

I’m at the point in my life where I don’t have time to play all these games people claim are so good. I believe them but I’m not interested in buying a play station to try these games. Where I am currently is less of a fan of video games and more a fan of Nintendo and their history and all the innovations and creations. So, if you’re offering, I’ll take that timeline Kang the Conqueror style.

 

[Dan Quixote]

Holy cow they're really advertising the hell outta this game

Ready up for the #MetroidDread release by following the Metroid Dread Bounty Hunter Challenge on 10/7! Watch participating streamers play before the release, seeing how many stars they can earn for their progress within the first 90 minutes.

Learn more:https://t.co/N2OXtJntNt pic.twitter.com/Zb5WKYIxaQ

— Nintendo of America (@NintendoAmerica) October 6, 2021

 

[SharkLord]

Now, to be completely fair to these people, I do agree Smash has a representation problem; Smash is a game played around the world and nobody should have to feel alienated. We have Little Mac, Min Min, and a few alts for a few characters, but other than that, it's easy to imagine that some would feel a bit put-off by the lack of PoC representation.

With all this said, I don't think it's at all fair to assume this stems from some kind of intentional, malicious bigotry, but rather almost certainly comes from cultural ignorance. It's a Japanese video game created almost entirely by Japanese people, and Japan is, unfortunately, a very ethnically homogenous country.

This does not mean that the lopsided representation is A-OK and can be ignored, but rather that solving the problem has to be approached differently than assuming "well, they must be racist." Allowing localization teams to get a bit closer to the main development process could prove helpful in this regard, along with for preventing unfortunate implications as seen with a few spirits, another point of contention that I feel about the same on.
Really, even focusing more on diversity with costume selections would be a great start. Ultimate shows a little promise there, but only a little.

While I agree, I'd like to point out that Japanese people should at least count under the PoC banner - In Smash's case, that would be Ryu and Joker, plus Ken being biracial at 75% Japanese, 25% white, and depending on how broad your definition is, the Pokemon Trainers, since they're from a blatant Japan analogue (They didn't even try to come up with a new name like the other regions, it's just straight-up Kanto). Yeah, the Japanese are the ethnic majority in Japan, but in most cases I've seen the phrase "PoC" includes Asians, and if we're including Chinese people like Min Min I feel like Japanese people would count too.

Granted, I'm not 100% sure on the definition of PoC, but I thought I'd get my two cents in. And again, I agree - From a Japanese lens, most characters are Japanese, and the most notable minorities are other East Asian ethnic groups from Japan or other countries in that region, and a Western/white foreigner. While they have a substantial overseas audience, Nintendo and the vast majority of third-parties are Japanese and most likely have a different perspective on race.

 

[Guynamednelson]

The timeline in which Nintendo ignores fan demand for Non-Nintendo characters in their wacky wahoo punching game is not the timeline I would want to be reborn in, to be honest.

Like, look, I love Nintendo and it’s a big part of who I am and what I like. But I wouldn’t have nearly the same interests without Smash introducing me to new things. It helped me become more open-minded, to be honest.

Like if you cut Snake, Sonic, Mega Man, Pac-Man, Ryu and Ken, Simon and Richter, Bayo, Cloud, Sephiroth, Sora, Hero, Kazuya, Terry, Steve…

It’s not just Smash sales numbers we’re talking about, we’re talking about those characters bringing further collaborations to Nintendo systems, and greater growth and success. Final Fantasy VII was PROBABLY brought over in relation to Cloud, now we have Kingdom Hearts collections in Cloud-gaming, we have Persona 5 strikers, etc. It goes well beyond just Smash.

Not to mention, 3rd party history can also be Nintendo history. Sonic was Mario’s rival. Big Nintendo history there. Mega Man and Street Fighter were big time hits on Nintendo consoles.

Snake was literally the first to even break the seal of non-Nintendo in Smash.

Otherwise, the others essentially…created new historical moments for Nintendo and the industry. Cloud broke the internet, Sephiroth came pretty close, so on and so forth.

As usual, I suggest playing those games when possible, because if you choose from essentially any of the 3rd party series with a playable character you won’t be disappointed in the quality of the game, I think. I’m willing to give recommendations if anybody is looking!

I’m at the point in my life where I don’t have time to play all these games people claim are so good. I believe them but I’m not interested in buying a play station to try these games. Where I am currently is less of a fan of video games and more a fan of Nintendo and their history and all the innovations and creations. So, if you’re offering, I’ll take that timeline Kang the Conqueror style.

In my case, I HAVE played most of the games these third-parties have come from, as well as most of the third-party games speculation darlings come from, but I'm still allowed to think Smash abused the idea that third-parties are better with this DLC. Granted, you can kind of see that in Smash 4's DLC too, but they still had to make room for catering to fans of veteran fighters as well, and I imagine it'll be the same thing with 6's DLC.

 

[3BitSaurus]

I mean Smash 4 pretty much was entirely based on what was new and popular in the world of Nintendo back in early 2012. Duck Hunt, the game's surprise character, was the one and only first party newcomer whose inclusion wasn't based on a new released Wii/3DS game.

I think that's kind of the point tbh. I kinda wish we had more picks like Duck Hunt instead of it being a "one-per game" exception. I don't think anyone here is arguing against the impact of third parties, just that maybe it would be a good thing if the first party newcomer lineup didn't just stick with 2 console generations per game.

 

[Shroob]

I just don't see the point in worrying about Smash 6 tbh.


We're an unknown many years away, and we're still going to get Promo spirit events(probably), and Sora's not even out yet.


That, and we'll probably still get balance patches, and if nothing else, we'll get a couple patches next year to add in Amiibo support.

 

[SNEKeater]

Smash would definitely be popular without third parties. It already was popular and big before Ultimate or Smash 4.

But I also think the third party additions have been expanding the popularity of Smash, which is natural. When you're bringing other audiences that might not overlap that much with the Nintendo/Smash core audience, your fanbase expands. Not only that, but third party additions usually make bigger headlines, and that's not a jab against first parties, just to be clear. It's just the way it is. Waluigi or to some extent, Isaac, would definitely make some buzz, though.

Thing is, people that aren't necessarily passionate Smash fans, or that maybe aren't that much into Nintendo in general, have been jumping into the Smash hype more than ever in the past few years, and I'd definitely say part of that is thanks to the third party additions. Everyone knows about Smash, but not everyone cares about it. When that happens, it's usually because those folks aren't into Nintendo stuff. But when you start bringing third party characters such as Mega Man, Snake, Cloud, Steve or Sora, that changes. And since Ultimate came out these people, even if they won't buy Smash, usually find exciting the sole idea of "who are they gonna add now?" each time a Smash reveal starts.

Of course, this can be kinda unfortunate for people that mostly cares about first party characters. There are few characters left that would universally reach people outside of the Smash sphere, like Waluigi, Toad, and maybe a few more. But that's pretty much it if you ask me. That doesn't mean that first party characters don't have a chance anymore, of course they're going to keep adding Nintendo characters. But Smash has kinda become an attraction made videogame not only for Nintendo fans, but for fans of videogames in general.

Smash goes bigger, therefore people start expecting bigger and bigger additions. I agree it sucks for a lot of first party characters and I myself still would like to see the likes of Isaac, Dixie Kong, Lyn or Hades from Kid Icarus to be added, they deserve better, but I can't really say I don't understand those people that want to go bigger and bigger.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I just don't see the point in worrying about Smash 6 tbh.


We're an unknown many years away, and we're still going to get Promo spirit events(probably), and Sora's not even out yet.


That, and we'll probably still get balance patches, and if nothing else, we'll get a couple patches next year to add in Amiibo support.

True, what I should REALLY focus on is Nick Smash. I know some of you Social Thread folks don't care but I'm still willing to try and get used to its gameplay differences.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

Doesn’t Terry’s Spirit Board have a gif of a train in the bg?

Terrys stage in his games is a train. I know Im slow lol

 

[N3ON]

I just don't see the point in worrying about Smash 6 tbh.


We're an unknown many years away, and we're still going to get Promo spirit events(probably), and Sora's not even out yet.


That, and we'll probably still get balance patches, and if nothing else, we'll get a couple patches next year to add in Amiibo support.

Yes, the real question is, where were you when they had the Smash presentation that featured both Mickey Mouse and Doom music?

Because that was a thing that actually happened in real life.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Doom music?

What is this "Doom" you speak of? I only know Doom Slayer from The Series That Originated The First Person Shooter Genre.

 

[N3ON]

Holy cow they're really advertising the hell outta this game

Ready up for the #MetroidDread release by following the Metroid Dread Bounty Hunter Challenge on 10/7! Watch participating streamers play before the release, seeing how many stars they can earn for their progress within the first 90 minutes.

Learn more:https://t.co/N2OXtJntNt pic.twitter.com/Zb5WKYIxaQ

— Nintendo of America (@NintendoAmerica) October 6, 2021

Not since, idk, Bayonetta, have we so been the primary demographic for a main holiday Nintendo game. And thus, the deluge.

What is this "Doom" you speak of? I only know Doom Slayer from The Series That Originated The First Person Shooter Genre.

Ah yes. Wolfenstein.

 

[Shroob]

It is kinda sad that Wolfenstein often gets overlooked as the true grandfather of FPS.


But at the same time, it's not super hard to see why one would choose DOOM to put in Smash over it tbh.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

While I understand the representation of color argument, (and I realize I have a certain privilege as a straight white male in this conversation, so let me be clear there) I feel it’s less a problem with Nintendo/Sakurai and more of an issue with the industry.

Only recently have newer games started more explicit representation of non-white characters. Having recently played DeathLoop myself, it blows my mind that it’s one of the first games to TRULY have avast headlined by two black people, which is great! But by no means is this is a widespread phenomenon just yet.

Historically, there are very few non-white characters, either from Nintendo or not from Nintendo. To go further, the amount of “main characters” of color, there are few, if any, that would be in the running within commonly speculated series and what not.

Now, there are quite a few Asian characters, not just by creation, but by nationality. Min Min, Ryu, Joker…these are just a few.

I feel like Twintelle was the closest we would have gotten, and Min Min was the pick based on Yabuki. I can’t blame the man, given she is his favorite of the cast.

Basically, I totally see the argument and think it’s valid- but I don’t necessarily agree that Smash is the problem. The problem is the industry itself and that it only recently has truly been creating new, excellent characters of color, etc. I can only hope that things continue to open up in that regard. Honestly I hope DeathLoop was a big step to that eventual reality. It’s a great game btw.

 

[N3ON]

It is kinda sad that Wolfenstein often gets overlooked as the true grandfather of FPS.


But at the same time, it's not super hard to see why one would choose DOOM to put in Smash over it tbh.

Yes I'm sure having Mario and Pikachu running around on a stage adorned with swastikas is towards the top of the list of things Nintendo would burn down the company to prevent from happening. xD

 

[subterrestrial]

ngl, the fact that I can buster wolf sora to protect my teammate while he crafts a diamond sword is still so unreal to me

 

[Shroob]

Yes I'm sure having Mario and Pikachu running around on a stage adorned with swastikas is towards the top of the list of things Nintendo would burn down the company to prevent from happening. xD

"Sometimes, Mecha-Hitler spawns as a boss"

 

[Dinoman96]

relevant

 

[Guynamednelson]

It is kinda sad that Wolfenstein often gets overlooked as the true grandfather of FPS.


But at the same time, it's not super hard to see why one would choose DOOM to put in Smash over it tbh.

And if you wanna get REALLY technical, Wolfenstein 3D still isn't the first FPS. Maybe the first mainstream FPS, but the mainstream still vastly preferred levels that looked more like detailed space-stations and less like primitive, blocky mazes.

 

[Sucumbio]

I wanna play joy mech fight now.... Maybe they will add it to nso. I mean for an nes title it's actually pretty cool looking now that I've watched some game play.

 

[Noipoi]

Holy cow they're really advertising the hell outta this game

Ready up for the #MetroidDread release by following the Metroid Dread Bounty Hunter Challenge on 10/7! Watch participating streamers play before the release, seeing how many stars they can earn for their progress within the first 90 minutes.

Learn more:https://t.co/N2OXtJntNt pic.twitter.com/Zb5WKYIxaQ

— Nintendo of America (@NintendoAmerica) October 6, 2021

For the love of god ****ing PLEASE buy Metroid Dread-Nintendo

 

[N3ON]

"Sometimes, Mecha-Hitler spawns as a boss"

"Let me tell you about the Wolfenstein series history. So, in the late 1920s there was civil unrest in the Weimar Republic-"

 

[Noipoi]

"Let me tell you about the Wolfenstein series history. So, in the late 1920s there was civil unrest in the Weimar Republic-"

If Sakurai was teaching it I’d actually do good in history.

 

[Guynamednelson]

If Sakurai was teaching it I’d actually do good in history.

No! This isn't how you're supposed to study for the test!

 

[Ivander]

For the love of god ****ing PLEASE buy Metroid Dread-Nintendo and Metroid Fans

Fixed. Also applies to Super Monkey Ball Banana Mania, Mario Party Superstars and Advance Wars Reboot Camp.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Advance Wars Reboot Camp

For Nintendo that's more like "Uh, you can buy Advance Wars Re-Boot Camp if you want, I guess. Whatever". Sadly.