Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[Nekoo]

Alternatively they could've had Sora in Sephiroth's place and CP11 continues to be business as usual.

...

Again. Why?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Guy, I'm gonna be honest.

You're pushing people away from Nintendo characters and appreciatation for them by putting third party characters down.

I just want people to think smaller Nintendo IPs are rad.

 

[Nekoo]

Guy, I'm gonna be honest.

You're pushing people away from Nintendo characters and appreciatation for them by putting third party characters down.

I just want people to think smaller Nintendo IPs are rad.

I think Nintendo IP are rad, that's why I started to play Smash.
But why act as if we are the ones having Nintendo or Sakurai at Gunpoint, holding them hostages to not put any smaller characters, when they're the one making decision and jumping all those legals hoops to gets those Characters.

Like, Nintendo could still just release Smash with only Nintendo characters, it would sell, it's Nintendo.

They're the one doing all of it, Them and Sakurai are the one wanting Smash to be a Celebration of Gaming as a whole and making it as such ever since Smash 4 DLC really went all out with Cloud/Bayo and Ryu.

The fans just follow the path Nintendo tell us to follow

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I mean I don’t disagree that smaller characters should get their time to shine but that, to me, clearly wasn’t the focus of Ultimate.

I don’t think it’s a bad opinion to prefer smaller characters. Where I disagree however is that it was “taken advantage of”. We have literal dream matchups in this game, and it will never happen again. I don’t blame Sakurai or Iwata, for a second, in the decision-making they made for this game. It’s a one of a kind roster.

The timing, the negotiations, the feedback…it all lined up to create this game. The fans had just as much, if not more, input on this game than anybody involved in its development.

They can do plenty of their smaller, lesser known franchises in the next one. They may never be able to do Mario vs. Sora vs. Sephiroth vs….whoever, ever again.

That’s just my stance though, there’s nothing objectively wrong with disagreeing here.

The only thing I suspect would be a roadblock for any character that is lesser known is, does Nintendo themselves want to push it? If not, I heavily doubt they’re in Smash. It’s exactly what happened in the DLC. Nintendo had a very much 3rd party/marketing approach to it.

Granted, I think the entire DLC lineup was decided a loooooooong time ago.

 

[BlondeLombax]

Guy, I'm gonna be honest.

You're pushing people away from Nintendo characters and appreciatation for them by putting third party characters down.

I just want people to think smaller Nintendo IPs are rad.

While I think that we've already gotten all the major bases covered in regards to first party characters, I'm still down for them adding whoever at any given point in time, regardless of how prominent they were. Now I realize how subconsciously upset I was about the fact that Battalion Wars didn't get diddly squat this game.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Guy, I'm gonna be honest.

You're pushing people away from Nintendo characters and appreciatation for them by putting third party characters down.

I just want people to think smaller Nintendo IPs are rad.

Well, what the hell should I do instead besides "can't we all just get along?" I feel like I'm being put down for not being as interested as others in Smash being taken over by third-parties, and fear how long it'll be until Smash 6, which I know I'll have to wait on unless modders start adding more full fighters between now and then.

 

[Nekoo]

Granted, I think the entire DLC lineup was decided a loooooooong time ago.

I still genuinely believe that Sora was a last minute agreement and it's why we got 6 DLC this pack, and why they didn't announce the numbers of characters back in September of Terry's reveal alongside "MORE FIGHTERS IN DEVELOPMENTS"
I genuinely believe Sora was in the plan, but he was more of a "Can we make it?" than others characters where I can see deals being made much easily. Especially if we, in insight of him winning the ballot, believe Imran's words about Nintendo having tried for Sora at least twice already.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Well, what the hell should I do instead besides "can't we all just get along?" I feel like I'm being put down for not being as interested as others in Smash being taken over by third-parties, and fear how long it'll be until Smash 6, which I know I'll have to wait on unless modders start adding more full fighters between now and then.

There are better ways to vent that frustration though.

 

[PeridotGX]

Anyways, one quick observation








(?)
but

- ...Nothing. Yoshi is the only member of the original 8 without an antagonistic force. Kamek's overdue, hopefully the mario movie boosts his popularity.

 

[Schnee117]

Well, what the hell should I do instead besides "can't we all just get along?" I feel like I'm being put down for not being as interested as others in Smash being taken over by third-parties, and fear how long it'll be until Smash 6, which I know I'll have to wait on unless modders start adding more full fighters between now and then.

You're being put down because your attitude stinks

 

[Nekoo]

Anyways, one quick observation








(?)
but

- ...Nothing. Yoshi is the only member of the original 8 without an antagonistic force. Kamek's overdue, hopefully the mario movie boosts his popularity.

The Taxes that you pay when you get your game and DLC is Yoshi's Antagonistic force.

 

[PeridotGX]

Well, what the hell should I do instead besides "can't we all just get along?" I feel like I'm being put down for not being as interested as others in Smash being taken over by third-parties, and fear how long it'll be until Smash 6, which I know I'll have to wait on unless modders start adding more full fighters between now and then.

People tend to respond better to positive stimuli (aka not being an asshole)

 

[N3ON]

I'm of the opinion the best way to pursue third-parties is focusing on the two prongs of "big/successful series" and "fan favourites", and, roughly, working your way down with each. And those that intersect both, like Sonic, Steve, Sora, Crash, etc. being the ideal kind of inclusions. And I don't even like Steve.

I think that way, you'll make the most amount of people happy. Also, despite the counterpoint, I don't think you'd entirely lose the element of surprise going that way either. I mean, when we get a popular character, people usually seem surprised they were actually added. Like... each time.

It's not entirely realistic though because that is a very expensive strategy, and I still think a character like Terry was included partially due to how affordable getting all that content was. Even if not, cost undoubtably plays a part in decisions.

I also know people will disagree and vouch for other, smaller third-parties, and I understand that. I'm not saying they're bad choices, I'd just go a different route. Keep in mind though with the argument about learning about and liking so-and-so, people can and would say that about any character. Big or small. It's not an argument that wouldn't still apply with bigger characters. Even the big characters are ones not everyone is intimately familiar with, especially given how many children play this game. I very much remember that being the case when Ryu and Cloud were added. So I'd still try to maximize recognition and cater to desire, because that appeases the greatest number.

 

[Guynamednelson]

People tend to respond better to positive stimuli (aka not being an asshole)

I just wish I was better at arguing without resorting to that.

 

[Noipoi]

I just wish I was better at arguing without resorting to that.

That’s something you can work on!

 

[Nekoo]

Honestly, there's no bad characters choice, or characters that has more merit to get in smash.
Let's stop argue about it, and appreciate the end of Ultimate and how crazy this game is.

Every characters is worthy to be added, they all have their fans, their demands and hopes. But in the end, it's not our choice.
So let's just continue to support them, without spitting on other's liking?

 

[Guynamednelson]

That’s something you can work on!

By the time I'm done taking all the classes I need to argue without resorting to trying and failing to be David taking down Goliath, Smash 6 will be out.

 

[N3ON]

Honestly, there's no bad characters choice, or characters that has more merit to get in smash.
Let's stop argue about it, and appreciate the end of Ultimate and how crazy this game is.

Every characters is worthy to be added, they all have their fans, their demands and hopes. But in the end, it's not our choice.
So let's just continue to support them, without spitting on other's liking?

Agreed.

Other than Corrin.

 

[Noipoi]

By the time I'm done taking all the classes I need to argue without resorting to trying and failing to be David taking down Goliath, Smash 6 will be out.

And you can use your new debating skills during smash 6’s release!

It’s not like there’s much of ultimate left to debate, anyway.

 

[Shroob]

Honestly, there's no bad characters choice, or characters that has more merit to get in smash.
Let's stop argue about it, and appreciate the end of Ultimate and how crazy this game is.

Every characters is worthy to be added, they all have their fans, their demands and hopes. But in the end, it's not our choice.
So let's just continue to support them, without spitting on other's liking?

Honestly, as much as I'd love to dunk on Corrin, cause Corrin



I just can't bring myself to do so


Corrin made Etika pop off soo hard, and, well, Etika's not with us anymore

 

[MarioRaccoon]

I think that there isn’t many huge request first party picks left. If we see 2019 and 2020 Source Gaming polls (there are not the absolute truth but more or less a good measurement of smash hardcore fan demand), from both top 20 there were 7 different first party reps (Bandana Waddle Dee, Rex/Pythra, Dixie Kong, Porky, Waluigi, Isaac and Paper Mario). 1 of then got as a playable fighter (Pyra) while other 2 as AT (Waluigi and Isaac).

Meanwhile 18 were from third parties (Crash, Banjo-Kazooie, Geno, Sora, Steve, Master Chief, Arle, Dante, Rayman, Sans, 2B, Doomslayer, Shantae, Phoenix Wright, Reimu, Travis, Ryu Hayabusa and Shadow). And hey, we got 3 as fighters (Sora, Banjo and Steve), 5 as mii costumes (Geno, Dante, Sans, Doomslayer and Shantae) and 1 AT (Shadow), so they recognize fan demand for the half of these characters.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Honestly, as much as I'd love to dunk on Corrin, cause Corrin



I just can't bring myself to do so


Corrin made Etika pop off soo hard, and, well, Etika's not with us anymore

Say

I wonder how Etika would have reacted to Sora…

 

[Shroob]

Say

I wonder how Etika would have reacted to Sora…

I think Etika would have adored this pass tbh. It almost feels like it was made for him.

 

[DarthEnderX]

On the Topic of 1st parties, If I had to choose 10 1st Party characters I think would be in Smash 6, it would be this

Fighters:
1. Captain Toad/Toadette [Treasure Tracker]
2. King Hippo [Punch-Out]

Echoes:
3. Ninten [Ness]
4. Black Shadow [Captain Falcon]
5. Impa [Sheik]
6. Galacta Knight [Meta Knight]
7. Black Knight [Ike]
8. Charizard [Pokemon Trainer]
9. Dixie Kong [Diddy Kong]
10. Octolings [Inklings]

If Waluigi gets his own game before then(i.e. Waluigi's Wrecking Crew), then he can be a Fighter too.

my most wanted AT promotions:

Alucard
Zero
Bomberman
Shovel Knight
Shadow(echo)
Black Knight(echo)

Ultimate scratched my first party villain itch but there's still so many they could add.

Smash does need more villains, but mostly bosses.

Mother Brain [Metroid]
Andross(N64 version) [Star Fox]
Porky [Earthbound]
Medusa [Kid Icarus]
Liquid Snake piloting Metal Gear REX [Metal Gear]
Eggman piloting Death Egg Robot [Sonic the Hedgehog]
Dr. Wily piloting Wily Machine [Mega Man]
Safer∙Sephiroth [Final Fantasy]

The only question is who?

There is only one correct answer.

Declone Ganondorf. Add Black Shadow with Classic Ganondorf's moveset.

 

[Idon]

If Lyn is bottom of the barrel, I don't wanna leave this barrel.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I still genuinely believe that Sora was a last minute agreement and it's why we got 6 DLC this pack, and why they didn't announce the numbers of characters back in September of Terry's reveal alongside "MORE FIGHTERS IN DEVELOPMENTS"
I genuinely believe Sora was in the plan, but he was more of a "Can we make it?" than others characters where I can see deals being made much easily. Especially if we, in insight of him winning the ballot, believe Imran's words about Nintendo having tried for Sora at least twice already.

My thoughts on the whole thing are this:

1) Wii U shows signs of failure, meanwhile Smash is prospering. Plans for Wii U/3DS DLC were planned ahead, with one pick being determined by the ballot.

2) Ballot is put out and received aggressive support. Nintendo realizes the support for many characters, likely a combination of Sora, K.Rool, Ridley, and some veteran picks like Snake

3) Iwata decides that they would pursue as many of these characters as possible for the next game. Negotiations for these characters begins.

4) Disney MIGHT have rejected the idea of Sora due to their strict usage concerns. After all, a board member at SE who worked on FFXIV evidently said himself that he wouldn't go anywhere near Sora because of it being a nightmare. (Kudos to Nintendo, btw)

5) I suspect Banjo and Steve were obtained at the same time over the course of a few years. There's that article about how Steve needed a few years to obtain (I think?)

6) Hero was, imo, tied into a push for SE to improve the visuals of Dragon Quest in the West, hence the reveal at E3 paired with the game itself. There's also the fact that it seems Hero COULD HAVE been base game and then tied into the release of the game. Who knows?

7) An ARMS character and Pyra/Mythra were too new for base game, and decided upon for post-game content regardless of their in-game content.

8) At some point in the years between Ultimate began development and now, Nintendo reached out for Sora again, and were either given the time of day or had to present a potential product to prove they could do a good job. That's entirely speculation though.

9) I still believe Sakurai was given leeway with a few picks, which is where we got Terry and Joker. I just don't quite buy that Nintendo picked them. Sakurai grew up as a hardcore Fatal Fury player, and loved Persona 5.

The one character I don't have any idea about is Sephiroth. Like, did Nintendo just want that for their game? Did Sakurai say something about it? I have no idea. Kazuya I assume is because "popular fighting game" and "owned by Namco Bandai".

Still unreal to think about the entire process.

 

[Nekoo]

Kazuya I assume is because "popular fighting game" and "owned by Namco Bandai".

Sakurai lost a Drinking game against Harada, that's why /s

 

[N3ON]

The one character I don't have any idea about is Sephiroth. Like, did Nintendo just want that for their game? Did Sakurai say something about it? I have no idea. Kazuya I assume is because "popular fighting game" and "owned by Namco Bandai".

I'm going to posit that a big part of Sephiroth's inclusion was owing to how insanely successful and how widely played Cloud is as a character. I think Nintendo realized FF7 is a goldmine and wanted to return to it. But at what stage of development they decided this, I'm not sure.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I’m actually just furious that Sora replaced George Costanza.

 

[skylanders fan]

My thoughts on the whole thing are this:

1) Wii U shows signs of failure, meanwhile Smash is prospering. Plans for Wii U/3DS DLC were planned ahead, with one pick being determined by the ballot.

2) Ballot is put out and received aggressive support. Nintendo realizes the support for many characters, likely a combination of Sora, K.Rool, Ridley, and some veteran picks like Snake

3) Iwata decides that they would pursue as many of these characters as possible for the next game. Negotiations for these characters begins.

4) Disney MIGHT have rejected the idea of Sora due to their strict usage concerns. After all, a board member at SE who worked on FFXIV evidently said himself that he wouldn't go anywhere near Sora because of it being a nightmare. (Kudos to Nintendo, btw)

5) I suspect Banjo and Steve were obtained at the same time over the course of a few years. There's that article about how Steve needed a few years to obtain (I think?)

6) Hero was, imo, tied into a push for SE to improve the visuals of Dragon Quest in the West, hence the reveal at E3 paired with the game itself. There's also the fact that it seems Hero COULD HAVE been base game and then tied into the release of the game. Who knows?

7) An ARMS character and Pyra/Mythra were too new for base game, and decided upon for post-game content regardless of their in-game content.

8) At some point in the years between Ultimate began development and now, Nintendo reached out for Sora again, and were either given the time of day or had to present a potential product to prove they could do a good job. That's entirely speculation though.

9) I still believe Sakurai was given leeway with a few picks, which is where we got Terry and Joker. I just don't quite buy that Nintendo picked them. Sakurai grew up as a hardcore Fatal Fury player, and loved Persona 5.

The one character I don't have any idea about is Sephiroth. Like, did Nintendo just want that for their game? Did Sakurai say something about it? I have no idea. Kazuya I assume is because "popular fighting game" and "owned by Namco Bandai".

Still unreal to think about the entire process.

My thinking with is that Nintendo offered SE another character if they tried to help with getting

 

[Shroob]

Even though I'm not really into Tekken, only ever played it once on vacation, I'm just glad that Namco got something.


It felt insane that the company that was helping make Smash got Pacman and... that was it for the good half of almost a decade now.

 

[N3ON]

I’m actually just furious that Sora replaced George Costanza.View attachment 333554

I have saved this image and am going to start distributing it like an insane person. Thank you.

 

[Shroob]

I’m actually just furious that Sora replaced George Costanza.View attachment 333554

This is going right in my "For Later usage" folder.

 

[spicynun]

I still genuinely believe that Sora was a last minute agreement and it's why we got 6 DLC this pack, and why they didn't announce the numbers of characters back in September of Terry's reveal alongside "MORE FIGHTERS IN DEVELOPMENTS"
I genuinely believe Sora was in the plan, but he was more of a "Can we make it?" than others characters where I can see deals being made much easily. Especially if we, in insight of him winning the ballot, believe Imran's words about Nintendo having tried for Sora at least twice already.

I got the complete opposite impression from that presentation. The way Sakurai talked about the Smash ballot, the fact he was more difficult to acquire with all the moving parts, him mentioning specifically he thinks Sora works well as the last fighter. Also that thing Imran said was on a speculation/prediction podcast. I have no clue how that has been passed around for so long as being insider information.

 

[MarioRaccoon]

I also believe that Sora was a “last minute addition”, just take the total number of mii costumes we got on FP2; 5 with Min Min, 6 with Steve, 5 with Sephiroth, 4 with Pyra/Mythra, 4 with Kazuya and 3 with Sora. Thats sums 27. While with FP1 we got 25 costumes, around 5 per CP.

I can easily see that doomslayer mii was part of Kazuya Mii wave (“the requested fighters that couldn’t make it”) and the 2 splatoon wigs were more or less a quick addition.

 

[Golden Icarus]

I'm of the opinion the best way to pursue third-parties is focusing on the two prongs of "big/successful series" and "fan favourites", and, roughly, working your way down with each. And those that intersect both, like Sonic, Steve, Sora, Crash, etc. being the ideal kind of inclusions.

I totally agree and that seemed to be the direction Ultimate went for the most part, with even the curveball picks being from fairly influential series/games. If I had to categorize all the third parties in Ultimate, I would probably say…

Fan-favorites/ballot picks:
Big/successful series:
Curveballs:

A pretty great spread, frankly. I think that the variety of directions that they went with Ultimate’s third-parties is what helped make the DLC so exciting and unpredictable. Even the curveballs were pretty strong choices, with so many people trying out KoF after Terry, and Persona 5 suddenly becoming everyone’s favorite game after Joker was added lol

 

[Rie Sonomura]

I totally agree and that seemed to be the direction Ultimate went for the most part, with even the curveball picks being from fairly influential series/games. If I had to categorize all the third parties in Ultimate, I would probably say…

Fan-favorites/ballot picks:(Sora)
Big/successful series:
Curveballs:

A pretty good spread, overall. I think that the variety of directions that they went with Ultimate’s third-parties is what helped make the DLC so exciting and unpredictable. Even the curveballs were pretty strong choices, with so many people trying out KoF and Persona 5 suddenly becoming everyone’s favorite game after Joker was added lol

Kazuya still shows up as Mythra

I see he’s having a mid life identity crisis

 

[Shroob]

I see he’s having a mid life identity crisis

Nah, that was actually just Mythra.

 

[Sid-cada]

I guess I should speak up, seeing how relevant this recent discussion is.

The biggest feeling I got out of the DLC is "Left out of the party."

Listen, my biggest, most wanted character ever since the For days is Bandanna Waddle Dee. He's not that big of an impossible want, isn't he? He's from a major Nintendo franchise that has been doing well that was also part of the 64 gang. He's popular within his own franchise and has seemingly had growing importance, and the current director said he views him as just as major a part of the franchise as the other characters already in Smash.

While I was able to enjoy the base game, more or less, I found the DLC... lacking to me.

It probably has to do with my gaming background, but very little of the DLC ending up appealing to me. Half the DLC ended up being RPGs, a genre that I do not like, and the other main source being traditional fighting games, which I also do not like (can't even do a QCF consistently).

I tried being enthusiastic, but you can only golf clap so many times before you quit out of boredom. Around the time of Sepheroth, I reduced myself to lurking instead of posting on here. I ended up not buying any of the DLC.

I guess it's the combination of having a want that felt so close yet so far, while everyone else got what they wanted, made me sour out a bit. Unlike some people who at least go to say "At least I got my most favorite so I don't care what happens anymore," I couldn't get even that. I ended up feeling alone in my disappointment, which just compounds my frustration.

If Dee is considered too small potatoes to get in, than what else is? Are all my wants too small to be majorly appreciated, or even considered? If this is the main direction the next game is going to be, does that mean that I'm no longer going to be interested?

I know the conversation has moved on a bit, but... I just needed to vent.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Is geno 3rd party? I’ve never seen that debate come to a conclusion. Thank you for the info

If Nintendo has to deal with a 3rd party to add them(which they do for Geno), then I say they count as 3rd party.

If there's one thing I despised about Smash ultimate speculation, its how the whole "FiRsT PaRtIeS aRe UnHyPe AnD BoTtOm Of ThE BaRrEL" mindet really started and grew throughout the DLC cycle.

Well sorry but...they just are.

And it's not because Nintendo's characters aren't as good. It's the simple fact that all of Nintendo's biggest characters are ALREADY IN THE GAME!

Meanwhile there are still plenty of big deal 3rd party characters that aren't in Smash. Fewer now than at the start of the DLC, but still way more than Nintendo has.

We got ****ing Pong here.

Well...Nintendo's ripoff of Pong anyway.

It is kinda sad that Wolfenstein often gets overlooked as the true grandfather of FPS.

But at the same time, it's not super hard to see why one would choose DOOM to put in Smash over it tbh.

I don't mind Doom getting picked over Wolfenstein. I just want people to stop CALLING Doom the first.

I keep seeing the phrase “bottom of the barrel” being used - do we forget that several characters are only popular and in the public eye now because of their inclusion in Smash?
Marth, Ice Climbers, Game&Watch, Pit - all back in the limelight because of smash. So any “bottom of the barrel” pick would instantly elevate with a smash inclusion. Smash is a kingmaker

Just because a character is no longer a "literal who?" doesn't mean they aren't still bottom of the barrel.

People may be able to recognize Ice Climbers and ROB thanks to Smash, but they're STILL D-listers.

That line was always imparted with more weight than it really had considering Sakurai was applying it to characters like Samus, it does imply the character still needs to be recognizable, fun is... kinda subjective and the only real judges are the dev team

Any character can be made fun to play. You can't make a character be iconic.