Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[BlondeLombax]

Honestly, the fact that Square Enix made it from the least-represented third-party in Smash to the most-represented is almost poetically hilarious. Calling it now, all eyes will be on Sega in regards to Sonic's sub-par lack of content in the next game.

 

[Idon]

All eyes will be on Sega alright... because Atlus's SMT doesn't have any content (yet).

 

[rychu_supadude]

The thing about Bandana Dee is that he's perfect add to the current-sized roster, but may move back to "just missing the cut" status if they do reboot and trim back to a 65-or-less roster. But I'll never stop dreaming, because the fans have surely made ourselves heard at least. Despite Zelda being a bigger series, they've never been able to rally around a single character like this.

I wonder how people would take it if they applied the same methodology to fighters in the next game that they did for Mii costumes in this one: everyone is back, but all third-party guests are post-launch DLC? If they finally agreed to include downloadable assist trophies, it would be almost satisfactory

Anyway, even though I actually would have been willing to put up with cloud nonsense just to finally play KH1, I found out that I don't even get that option due to being "lucky" enough to live in Australia. So I went ahead and bought 1.5+2.5HD on PC even though I never do that, because enough is enough.

Maybe by the time I finish them we'll actually have cloud gaming on Switch and I can end up playing KH3 there?

 

[GalacticPetey]

I think people need to take a step back and think about context in these first/third party discussions. Part of the reason first parties feel so left out is because they were, for the DLC phase. Let's look back to base game. Granted it was a small number of characters in general but we only got three third party characters, and two of them were echoes. The only real third party inclusion in base was Simon. A popular, legacy franchise that has especially strong ties to Nintendo. The rest of the base game newcomers are largely beloved first parties like Inkling, Ridley, K. Rool, Isabelle, Chrom, etc.

Third parties make sense as DLC because let's be honest, Kazuya Mishima is certainly gonna draw more attention and sell more individual units than someone like Dixie Kong, as much as I adore her and her series. I think there's a little too much doom posting about first parties being left behind because we've been in DLC mode for so long, much longer than serious base game speculation. I have no doubt the base roster for the next game (EWW I HATE THINKING ABOUT THE NEXT GAME ALREADY) will be lined with first party characters like Dixie, Waluigi, Octoling, and of course our obligatory pokemon lol.

So I don't think people need to worry about Smash losing it's Nintendo center. That's always going to be there. DLC is just such a different beast and we're coming off the heels of one of the biggest third party reveals ever. We all just need to take a bit and relax.

 

[DarkFalcon]

Metroid in about 24 hours. Can't believe it's almost here. I'm ready.

 

[CosmicQuark]

My thoughts on the whole thing are this:

1) Wii U shows signs of failure, meanwhile Smash is prospering. Plans for Wii U/3DS DLC were planned ahead, with one pick being determined by the ballot.

2) Ballot is put out and received aggressive support. Nintendo realizes the support for many characters, likely a combination of Sora, K.Rool, Ridley, and some veteran picks like Snake

3) Iwata decides that they would pursue as many of these characters as possible for the next game. Negotiations for these characters begins.

4) Disney MIGHT have rejected the idea of Sora due to their strict usage concerns. After all, a board member at SE who worked on FFXIV evidently said himself that he wouldn't go anywhere near Sora because of it being a nightmare. (Kudos to Nintendo, btw)

5) I suspect Banjo and Steve were obtained at the same time over the course of a few years. There's that article about how Steve needed a few years to obtain (I think?)

6) Hero was, imo, tied into a push for SE to improve the visuals of Dragon Quest in the West, hence the reveal at E3 paired with the game itself. There's also the fact that it seems Hero COULD HAVE been base game and then tied into the release of the game. Who knows?

7) An ARMS character and Pyra/Mythra were too new for base game, and decided upon for post-game content regardless of their in-game content.

8) At some point in the years between Ultimate began development and now, Nintendo reached out for Sora again, and were either given the time of day or had to present a potential product to prove they could do a good job. That's entirely speculation though.

9) I still believe Sakurai was given leeway with a few picks, which is where we got Terry and Joker. I just don't quite buy that Nintendo picked them. Sakurai grew up as a hardcore Fatal Fury player, and loved Persona 5.

The one character I don't have any idea about is Sephiroth. Like, did Nintendo just want that for their game? Did Sakurai say something about it? I have no idea. Kazuya I assume is because "popular fighting game" and "owned by Namco Bandai".

Still unreal to think about the entire process.

I agree with pretty much all of that. From what I read about Steve, because Minecraft was very popular on the Wii U they were looking to get Steve, and that opened the door for Banjo & Kazooie. They never mentioned the reason why, but because Sakurai emphasized a character has to be realizable in Steve's Direct, perhaps at first he didn't think he could incorporate him in, and they went with Banjo & Kazooie first. Then Sakurai got the idea for how to make Steve work and when asked again by Nintendo, said he could do it.

As for Sephiroth, I always felt like it had to do with Sora--originally I thought Sephiroth was their backup after being denied Sora, and a means to get more FF7 content in the game, which doesn't seem to be the case since they're in the same pass. But since DLC got shuffled around and there were 6, rather than 5, characters, I think originally Kazuya was at Game Awards and Sephiroth was at E3, but once they got the okay from Disney, they added in Sora as the sixth and final character and shuffled things around appropriately.

 

[Royalty1702]

Why didn't they reveal the full results of the ballot or at least the Top 20? Are they planning to use it for Smash 6? If so, who do you think would be that high on the list that we haven't gotten yet?

 

[Shroob]

Why didn't they reveal the full results of the ballot or at least the Top 20? Are they planning to use it for Smash 6? If so, who do you think would be that high on the list that we haven't gotten yet?

They said why, because revealing that info would cause the fanbase to go rabid and hound the devs of both Smash and the companies involved.


Imagine if they had revealed Sora as 1# before he had gotten in. People would have lost their ****.

 

[N3ON]

Perhaps I could have said it in my post, but I am aware of the Sakurai Bias. You can't be part of the Kirby fandom like I am and hear the "Sakurai believes there are only 6 Kirby games" jokes. I mostly ignored it because I was more focused on venting over my feelings over the DLC, rather than venting over the lack of Dee. It's just that I felt for the longest time that he had a big shot when it turns out he didn't compounded my frustrations with characters I was more ambivalent towards that everyone else was going crazy for.

At least he has a good chance in the next game, right?

...if Sakurai's uninvolved, yeah.

Honestly, the fact that Square Enix made it from the least-represented third-party in Smash to the most-represented is almost poetically hilarious. Calling it now, all eyes will be on Sega in regards to Sonic's sub-par lack of content in the next game.

Oh yeah the Sonic characters are going to be a frequent part of the discourse, especially regarding which one we'd get. So all of you who plan to stick around, have fun with them Sonic wars, lol.

 

[Nekoo]

They said why, because revealing that info would cause the fanbase to go rabid and hound the devs of both Smash and the companies involved.


Imagine if they had revealed Sora as 1# before he had gotten in. People would have lost their ****.

"The ballot is fake, no way this Disney Mickey mouse look alike did first"

 

[Ivander]

Why didn't they reveal the full results of the ballot or at least the Top 20?

Because of the so-called Smash fans.

Basically, if they show the results, people would start pestering the Smash Bros. team and the companies of those characters to no end.

 

[BlondeLombax]

Oh yeah the Sonic characters are going to be a frequent part of the discourse, especially regarding which one we'd get. So all of you who plan to stick around, have fun with them Sonic wars, lol.

Also
A. Music, because the only remix we have is the Brawl Angel Island arrangement
B. Stages, since while Sonic has two, one comes from a game that hasn't melded well with the fandom

 

[ForsakenM]

Huh, that’s a weirdly specific image haha

Yeah, as a Geno fan this has been a known barrier for some time that Geno being owned by Square means there are a list of iconic characters that he has to compete with.

So far he's lost out to FF7 twice, Dragon Quest and Kingdom Hearts once. Gotta, say, if my boi was to lose to not get in, they chose the right reasons as to why. No way in hell I would pass up on making Sora ACTUALLY get in for Geno from a business perspective. There was a time when I thought Geno's chances were better than Sephiroth's because we already got Cloud and that was essentially enough to rep FF as a whole but especially FF7, but as it turned out Sakurai was very upset with the lack of content and it was decided a whole other Challenger Pack was needed to fix that. Also Cloud can't go anywhere without him anyway, so in hindset it was pretty dumb to not expect him.

However, with every big name that goes by, I think we ultimately do get closer to him just because of the nature of Geno's fan request. It's why I keep saying he's an inevitability, even if it takes time past Ultimate for it to happen. Square may be big, but there are only so many truly big names they have that haven't already been put in before we reach Geno's demand.

Metroid in about 24 hours. Can't believe it's almost here. I'm ready.

Yeah, can we talk about how Nintendo is just popping out bangers? Sora in Smash not long from now, Dread in just over a day or so, Bayo 3 is real, 3D Kirby is real, going back to roots with Mario Party, AC is getting a fairly substantial update, we got BDSP this holiday and Legends Arceus very early next year. New WarioWare and NMH3 are pretty fresh still as well.

LEZ GOOOOO~!

Why didn't they reveal the full results of the ballot or at least the Top 20? Are they planning to use it for Smash 6? If so, who do you think would be that high on the list that we haven't gotten yet?

I mean, if you think the toxic portions of this fan base are harassing NOW, imagine when they know the ballot results and see their character placed very high up now after Sakurai confirmed Sora was #1 and that they basically sacrificed so much specifically for him. Think they wouldn't whip themselves into an absolute FRENZY and flood social media about why their character didn't get picked or hound the IP holder to work with Sakurai?

 

[Royalty1702]

They said why, because revealing that info would cause the fanbase to go rabid and hound the devs of both Smash and the companies involved.


Imagine if they had revealed Sora as 1# before he had gotten in. People would have lost their ****.

No, Sakurai said that they couldn't reveal the results before Sora's reveal because that would cause fans to go rabid. There was no explanation as to why they don't reveal the results now, unless they're actually going to use the ballot again for Smash 6.

 

[Will]

Pokemon Mystery Dungeon: Red/Blue Rescue Cream for the GBA/DS had a Lucario statue: this was well before D/P. It's debatable if it counts, but if it does then Lucario is a split rep between GBA and DS.

That's like saying Sonic is actually the first Arcade rep because he arguably appeared as a cameo in Rad Mobile before his first game.

 

[N3ON]

"The ballot is fake, no way this Disney Mickey mouse look alike did first"

I'd love to know how long it took them and how many negotiations were required just to approve the use of the Mickey logo on the keyblade chain. Because you know they had meetings and discussions that were entirely about that.

 

[Shroob]

No, Sakurai said that they couldn't reveal the results before Sora's reveal because that would cause fans to go rabid. There was no explanation as to why they don't reveal the results now, unless they're actually going to use the ballot again for Smash 6.

I mean..... the exact same logic applies here.

Let's say they reveal the results and say, I dunno, Crash, Master Chief and another big fan favorite were on there, theoretically of course.



Again, people would go RABID.

 

[ForsakenM]

No, Sakurai said that they couldn't reveal the results before Sora's reveal because that would cause fans to go rabid. There was no explanation as to why they don't reveal the results now, unless they're actually going to use the ballot again for Smash 6.

I mean...you think they won't continue to use that information for character choices until they pick so many they need a new poll?

Also, do you think that putting in Sora means other fans wouldn't charge face first into online barrages and harassments to other companies if they revealed all that.

Even if they don't use it for future titles, they can't reveal that because people would harass them the entire time between titles even if Sakurai came out and said 'Yeah, we aren't using the ballot anymore, so leave these companies alone please.'

 

[7NATOR]

Honestly, the fact that Square Enix made it from the least-represented third-party in Smash to the most-represented is almost poetically hilarious. Calling it now, all eyes will be on Sega in regards to Sonic's sub-par lack of content in the next game.

Exactly

I think just looking at the Situation of how the Lineup of both the Base Roster and DLC turned out, it seems everything was planned out from 2015-2016 era, so around the Time Base Ultimate had it's Project Plan completed and/or Development started

Like I mentioned in the Post about Sephiroth, Sonic was in Dire Strats in 2015-2016. Sonic Boom was supposed to be the New Transformation of the Sonic Franchise, but it flopped Hard (even if the Cartoon was good). Sonic Boom Rise of Lyric is cosidered as Bad, or even worse than Sonic 06, and this was the game Sega was making to Appease Nintendo. I think to Nintendo, not only was this Disrespectful, but now they aren't even sure if the Sonic I.P would be living well. Granted there was Sonic Dash, but I'm unsure if Nintendo were paying attention

In addition, Mario and Sonic at the Rio Olympics I actually believe underperform and reviewed terribly. Lost World also kind of Underperformed also. I think combining all of that and the Lack of Japanesse Popularity of the Sonic franchise, I can see how Another Sonic character wasn't within Nintendo's Plans

And while Tails, Knuckles, and Shadow were still popular Requests during the Smash 4 era, especially on Sites like Miiverse, Twitter, and Youtube, I don't think they were the Top of the Ballot of anything like characters like K.Rool, Banjo, Ridley, and Sora were, So maybe they weren't in Sakurai's Plan

However going into the Next Game, Sonic is Winning. As Mediocre as Sonic Forces was, It did some Strong Sales, and Mania especially did good. Sonic in alot of Crossovers, Mobile Games popping, Highest Grossing Video Game movie of all Time, with a Sequel on the Way. Netflix Series on the way, and the Next Sonic game looking enticing. IDW Comics doing good, even selling out in Japan, the Region where Sonic usually doesn't do that good

Plus Shadow and Eggman had their biggest boost in Smash Requests yet, and Tails also got some love as well

So I think Smash 6 is the actual perfect time for Another Sonic character. Sonic has proven to never die. In spite of 2 Catastrophic games that would kill many other video Game series, Sonic not only remains alive, but also Popular and Successful to this day. That's what Nintendo loves to See, and I know Sakurai saw the burst of Requests another Sonic character keeps Acuminating as Smash games go by

I think I made the mistake of trying to Put the idea of Shadow becoming playable into a Set timeline. First it was Base roster, than FP1 for a short while, than FP2, but I think I have to realize that what I DON'T Know is when Shadow would become playable, What I DO know is that

-Shadow will be a Playable character
-He won't be an Echo fighter

I think that's what I should have been trying to Say. Knowing the Situation of Ultimate, I should have known that Shadow would have to wait years and years, but I'm willing to wait. His Support base and other Sonic character support base are never gonna Die, and I also don't Plan on dying until at least Shadow is confirmed for Official Smash game

 

[N3ON]

There's a reason the last time we got full results to an official Smash poll it was the year 1999.

 

[Royalty1702]

I mean..... the exact same logic applies here.

Let's say they reveal the results and say, I dunno, Crash, Master Chief and another big fan favorite were on there, theoretically of course.



Again, people would go RABID.

I mean...you think they won't continue to use that information for character choices until they pick so many they need a new poll?

Also, do you think that putting in Sora means other fans wouldn't charge face first into online barrages and harassments to other companies if they revealed all that.

Even if they don't use it for future titles, they can't reveal that because people would harass them the entire time between titles even if Sakurai came out and said 'Yeah, we aren't using the ballot anymore, so leave these companies alone please.'

Fair enough. I'll just accept the ballot being at play still as a headcanon but I see your points.

 

[DarkFalcon]

Nothing good would come from revealing the top ballot picks. Sakurai said it best. People would hound companies about it. Even if the next Smash game isn't for another 5-6 years people won't forget.

 

[DarthEnderX]

All eyes will be on Sega alright... because Atlus's SMT doesn't have any content (yet).

And by the time Smash 6 comes out, Nahobino will be an actual viable option!

Hope SMTV doesn't suck.

I wonder how people would take it if they applied the same methodology to fighters in the next game that they did for Mii costumes in this one: everyone is back, but all third-party guests are post-launch DLC? If they finally agreed to include downloadable assist trophies, it would be almost satisfactory

Personally, I'd be okay with:
All 1st party characters are base roster
All 3rd party characters are at launch DLC(to pay for licenses)

So you get "Everyone Is Here!" at launch. Just...some of it costs extra.

 

[Shroob]

And by the time Smash 6 comes out, Nahobino will be an actual viable option!

Hope SMTV doesn't suck.

As long as it's not like Apocalypse, it shouldn't.

 

[7NATOR]

As long as it's not like Apocalypse, it shouldn't.

What's wrong with Apocalypse?

 

[Shroob]

What's wrong with Apocalypse?

Wasn't really a fan of it. Like, at all.


It has some great boss fights, but the story just felt.........eughhhh?

 

[Sucumbio]

We should have an updated Ballot so it can take into account all the new characters that have made a splash since the time the old one was done. Though I expect there will be repeat votes like for bandana waddle dee I would expect there to be at least a few new characters.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

The one character I don't have any idea about is Sephiroth. Like, did Nintendo just want that for their game? Did Sakurai say something about it? I have no idea. Kazuya I assume is because "popular fighting game" and "owned by Namco Bandai".

Still unreal to think about the entire process.

tinfoil hat theory 2: Sephiroth was actually the last fighter decided on because Sakurai and Nomura were already working together on Sora and they just tacked on Sephiroth because they could

 

[Swamp Sensei]

And so.

My signature is now complete.

The full roster in chronological order, complete with correct placings for alt costume characters and different gender options.

This is our roster. It's pretty darn special.

 

[Will]

tinfoil hat theory 2: Sephiroth was actually the last fighter decided on because Sakurai and Nomura were already working together on Sora and they just tacked on Sephiroth because they could

I like the timeline where some Nintendo executive just really really likes Sephiroth a lot more

 

[PLATINUM7]

"The ballot is fake, no way this Disney Mickey mouse look alike did first"

Funnily enough, I haven't really seen anyone call into question the veracity of Sora winning the ballot but I saw plenty of people doubt it with Bayonetta.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

I like the timeline where some Nintendo executive just really really likes Sephiroth a lot more

“Oh you’re working with Nomura on Sora? Think you could get Sephiroth too?”
…
“Put Sephiroth in the game…That’s an order.”

 

[Ivander]

We should have an updated Ballot so it can take into account all the new characters that have made a splash since the time the old one was done. Though I expect there will be repeat votes like for bandana waddle dee I would expect there to be at least a few new characters.

There's a part of me that wants another Smash Ballot to wait. Mostly because I want to see which characters get in Smash 6 first, so that the picks that would be popular on the Ballot, like Undertale or Master Chief, can possibly go to some more unlikely characters.

And to be honest, because I hope Waluigi is already put in Smash 6 so that he does not become Number 1 on the next Ballot.

Funnily enough, I haven't really seen anyone call into question the veracity of Sora winning the ballot but I saw plenty of people doubt it with Bayonetta.

Because you know, not who I wanted. Pettiness on the internet is the equivalent to grass in a grassfield.

 

[DarthEnderX]

We should have an updated Ballot so it can take into account all the new characters that have made a splash since the time the old one was done. Though I expect there will be repeat votes like for bandana waddle dee I would expect there to be at least a few new characters.

100%. Plus all the votes spent getting returning characters back.

Me and the Simon crew, moving on to Hayabusa and Rizer!

 

[Nekoo]

Funnily enough, I haven't really seen anyone call into question the veracity of Sora winning the ballot but I saw plenty of people doubt it with Bayonetta.

Because literally no one in their right mind can believe Bayonetta, Sakurai just threw Europe under the bus that she's number 3, and yet Europe looked at itself confused at what happened.
Also third amongst "Realizable characters" when her early data were found AS EARLY AS NOT EVEN A MONTHS AFTER THE BALLOT STARTED (With slots for ZSS/Ike and Mario , where ZSS became Bayonetta, Ike became Cloud, and Mario became Corrin) made it even more hard to believe

 

[Will]

“Oh you’re working with Nomura on Sora? Think you could get Sephiroth too?”
…
“Put Sephiroth in the game that’s an order.”

It's like the guy who went to Sakurai and said "Surely, you can do Steve from Minecraft" like their kids been begging for it endlessly and they're just tired.

 

[Shroob]

Bayo always had the caveat of the "Realizable" thing, which always brought to question of "Did she ACTUALLY win tho?" Some people argued that she 100% won the ballot, others said the true winner was like, K.Rool due to Sakurai's statement on the ballot, etc


Didn't help that datamining much, much later on found that data for a placeholder spot for her with ZSS as the placeholder model had been found only 2 weeks after the ballot had been announced, meaning that either they had chosen a winner EXTREMELY early into the ballot's life, meaning all future votes were meaningless, or, well



I'm at the very least happy we have 100% confirmation as to the ballot now.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

So what was everyone's favorite art splash?

Ridley Hits the Big Time!
Simon Lashes Out!
Richter Crosses Over!
Chrom Joins the Battle!!!/Dark Samus Joins the Battle!!!
King K. Rool Comes Aboard!
Isabelle Turns Over A New Leaf!
Ken Turns Up the Heat!
Incineroar Enters the Ring!
Piranha Plant Pipes Up!
Joker Steals the Show!
The Hero Draws Near!
Banjo-Kazooie Are Raring To Go!
Terry Faces the Fury!
Byleth Joins Smash House!/Byleth Recruits...Byleth!
Min Min Arms Herself!
Steve Rocks the Block!
Alex Swaps In!
Zombie Spawns In!
Enderman Steps from the Shadows!
Sephiroth Descends to Battle!
Pyra Blazes Into Battle!
Mythra Awakens!
Kazuya Gets Ready For The Next Battle!
Sora Is Finally Here!

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I still genuinely believe that Sora was a last minute agreement and it's why we got 6 DLC this pack, and why they didn't announce the numbers of characters back in September of Terry's reveal alongside "MORE FIGHTERS IN DEVELOPMENTS"
I genuinely believe Sora was in the plan, but he was more of a "Can we make it?" than others characters where I can see deals being made much easily. Especially if we, in insight of him winning the ballot, believe Imran's words about Nintendo having tried for Sora at least twice already.

I'm gonna be honest, I feel Sora was planned to be the final character pretty early on, it'sa crazy tinfoil hat theory, but Lifelight's opening lyrics fit perfectly with the visuals used for Sora's trailer and I think the whole 'everyone becomes a trophy' part is meant to represent the ****ing Waking stuff from 3D and III.


You know, I don't like Sora but I sure do know a ****ton about his series. Weird.


Also when I said bottom of the barrel last night, I'm not saying every first party is bottom of the barrel, just that the days where people could get excited over Starman from Urban Championship, Trax, Custom Robo, Muddy Mole, Komurasaki, Mike Jones and more could cause genuine excitement across the fanbase beyond "Oh, isn't it so fun to learn of these obscure oldschool games that have no future even after getting characters in Smash". They're a hard sell and I don't think it's an exaggeration that most people just prefer characters they're actually familiar with, especially, and here's the big one, if we have to pay extra to get them. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume everyone who bemoans how 'oversaturated' third parties are has also played at least what, 20 games that aren't owned by Nintendo? Besides, for DLC, we already went through **** like ATs which hurts the perspective of characters so when we get Super Smash Bros Kerfuffle for the Nintendo Z in 6 years, you just know characters like Isaac and Waluigi will become the biggest characters discussed until we see their fate, it's not like first parties are a dying breed

 

[RoboFist]

"The ballot is fake, no way this Disney Mickey mouse look alike did first"

I've seen these. I've had complete randos hijack my social media excitement screaming about how he can't possibly believe that Sora got more votes than Rayman, Bandana Dee, or Master Chief.

And it's just like...really? You can't? Did you just start speculating about Smash content two weeks ago?

Yesterday was almost relentless in terms of the vocal minority jumping into otherwise positive conversations and insisting we were all morons. How the game was ruined because Sora was the absolute worst choice Nintendo could've possibly made. And it reminded me why I don't do social media haha.

Again, though, vocal minority. For the most part, I've honestly never seen the internet react this positively to a final Smash character before. Even the people who were very disappointed were expressing their gratitude, understanding, and congratulations. It was a really wholesome day and it more than made up for the toxic people.