Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[Warumian]

- ...Nothing. Yoshi is the only member of the original 8 without an antagonistic force. Kamek's overdue, hopefully the mario movie boosts his popularity.

Baby Bowser for smash 6 because Nintendo likes to add babies to games. (like the 600 babies MK8 has).

 

[Gengar84]

Fighters:
1. Captain Toad/Toadette [Treasure Tracker]
2. King Hippo [Punch-Out]

Echoes:
3. Ninten [Ness]
4. Black Shadow [Captain Falcon]
5. Impa [Sheik]
6. Galacta Knight [Meta Knight]
7. Black Knight [Ike]
8. Charizard [Pokemon Trainer]
9. Dixie Kong [Diddy Kong]
10. Octolings [Inklings]

If Waluigi gets his own game before then(i.e. Waluigi's Wrecking Crew), then he can be a Fighter too.

Alucard
Zero
Bomberman
Shovel Knight
Shadow(echo)
Black Knight(echo)

Smash does need more villains, but mostly bosses.

Mother Brain [Metroid]
Andross(N64 version) [Star Fox]
Porky [Earthbound]
Medusa [Kid Icarus]
Liquid Snake piloting Metal Gear REX [Metal Gear]
Eggman piloting Death Egg Robot [Sonic the Hedgehog]
Dr. Wily piloting Wily Machine [Mega Man]
Safer∙Sephiroth [Final Fantasy]

There is only one correct answer.

Declone Ganondorf. Add Black Shadow with Classic Ganondorf's moveset.

Dixie and Impa deserve more than just being echoes. Impa’s got three awesome Warriors move sets to pull from and Dixie could either represent the tag mechanic with Kiddy or the animal buddies. Both were huge aspects of DKC that aren’t represented by any of the characters.

 

[Shroob]

Well...Nintendo's ripoff of Pong anyway.

Legally distinct Pong


Which is still just Pong

PONG IS PONG

 

[kylexv]

As someone whose first Smash game was Melee, I've always seen third parties in Smash as a mutual relationship. Fans of the games these third-party characters are from will check out Smash when the character gets in, making them more likely to check out Nintendo's other games. On the other hand, Nintendo fans get exposed to other games from other developers and publishers. It's a win-win.

 

[Guynamednelson]

The biggest feeling I got out of the DLC is "Left out of the party."

Yes, thank you, you put it better than I did. I may not dislike JRPGs and traditional fighters, and still got some characters I wanted out of FP1, but the closest I got in 2 was...Pyra & Mythra. I'd rather take Rex tbh.

 

[PeridotGX]

Something funny to think about: Every Playstation that released before Ultimate now has two reps.

PS1: , plus and in spirit
PS2:
PS3:
PS4: also , +

Meanwhile the DS just has ... arguably.

 

[Guynamednelson]

He may have debuted in an arcade game before being on consoles, but the arcade hardware Tekken 1 used was PS1-based. So is he still "in spirit"?

 

[SpectreJordan]

Because they could've just stopped at Steve and Sephiroth in terms of massive icons to get a good chunk of gamers interested in buying FP2 anyway?

Granted, I am fine with Tekken representation, mind you, but I was hoping "Smash always ends in someone disappointing" meant "remember those Nintendo picks you thought were bottom of the barrel? yeah you're getting one, enjoy."

You were never getting one of those, bro. It’s clear that Nintendo’s focus now with their own characters are either modern characters () or characters with insane fan demand ().

If you want smaller, old characters then you’re going to have to rally an army. Or hope one of them gets picked as the game’s designated weirdo newcomer.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

All without a doubt ballot picks.

Sora

There's no denying it.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

All without a doubt ballot picks.

Sora

There's no denying it.

Chrom and Dark Samus were also explicitly confirmed in a Sakurai Famitsu column to have been influenced by the ballot.

 

[Guynamednelson]

characters with insane fan demand ()

Hey, maybe now that they've had their chance to be playable, maybe the demand for the Grinch gang/Bandana Dee/etc. will increase? Maybe?

Oh who am I kidding, I'd better pray for a GS revival more than anything else.

 

[N3ON]

I guess I should speak up, seeing how relevant this recent discussion is.

The biggest feeling I got out of the DLC is "Left out of the party."

Listen, my biggest, most wanted character ever since the For days is Bandanna Waddle Dee. He's not that big of an impossible want, isn't he? He's from a major Nintendo franchise that has been doing well that was also part of the 64 gang. He's popular within his own franchise and has seemingly had growing importance, and the current director said he views him as just as major a part of the franchise as the other characters already in Smash.

While I was able to enjoy the base game, more or less, I found the DLC... lacking to me.

It probably has to do with my gaming background, but very little of the DLC ending up appealing to me. Half the DLC ended up being RPGs, a genre that I do not like, and the other main source being traditional fighting games, which I also do not like (can't even do a QCF consistently).

I tried being enthusiastic, but you can only golf clap so many times before you quit out of boredom. Around the time of Sepheroth, I reduced myself to lurking instead of posting on here. I ended up not buying any of the DLC.

I guess it's the combination of having a want that felt so close yet so far, while everyone else got what they wanted, made me sour out a bit. Unlike some people who at least go to say "At least I got my most favorite so I don't care what happens anymore," I couldn't get even that. I ended up feeling alone in my disappointment, which just compounds my frustration.

If Dee is considered too small potatoes to get in, than what else is? Are all my wants too small to be majorly appreciated, or even considered? If this is the main direction the next game is going to be, does that mean that I'm no longer going to be interested?

I know the conversation has moved on a bit, but... I just needed to vent.

I feel you. Luckily things weren't so extreme for me, but lots of the DLC passed me by as well without generating particularly strong feelings. Or generating actual negative ones, in a few cases. I've before said that I don't think Nintendo needs cast their net for disparate third-parties at the exclusion of desired characters, because there are those who overlap both categories and would really be a win-win for all involved. That's not how they went for a lot of the DLC, but... at least they did it a bit.

I also think this speaks to the benefit of covering a lot of genres. We joke about mostly relying on a few, particularly JRPG, and it's true. A lot of people, especially in Japan, dig that genre, but obviously not everyone will. I don't think it would hurt to cover the spread a little more.

And as for Bandana Dee... I think your main obstacle there is Sakurai himself. Nintendo picked the DLC, true enough, but Dee's a base game kind of character anyway. The thing is, non-Sakurai Kirby content really does get pushed to the side, with only a few exceptions. And the way BWD has been treated in Smash so far makes me think he's more part of the trend than the exception. Which is unfortunate for his fans, considering it's not like he lacks merit. So that one will continue to be an uphill battle.

I don't mind Doom getting picked over Wolfenstein. I just want people to stop CALLING Doom the first.

Good luck. People still act like Dragon Quest is the first RPG ever to hit gaming and then codified the rest, when it itself was inspired by Ultima and games of that era.

As someone whose first Smash game was Melee, I've always seen third parties in Smash as a mutual relationship. Fans of the games these third-party characters are from will check out Smash when the character gets in, making them more likely to check out Nintendo's other games. On the other hand, Nintendo fans get exposed to other games from other developers and publishers. It's a win-win.

I think that's part of the reason you see devs jumping over themselves to get their characters included.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Something funny to think about: Every Playstation that released before Ultimate now has two reps.

PS1: , plus and in spirit
PS2:
PS3:
PS4: also , +

Meanwhile the DS just has ... arguably.

Neku and Phoenix for next game pls

also I wonder what other things like ATs were influenced by the ballot. I’m sure the Shantae Mii was

 

[Warumian]

Legally distinct Pong


Which is still just Pong


View attachment 333560

PONG IS PONG

No no no, is not pong, it's Color TV Game 15™, it's as different from pong as every 1st gen console.

 

[SpectreJordan]

Hey, maybe now that they've had their chance to be playable, maybe the demand for the Grinch gang/Bandana Dee/etc. will increase? Maybe?

Oh who am I kidding, I'd better pray for a GS revival more than anything else.

I think Bandana Dee support will grow. I don’t really think the others will though unless some big Internet personalities get behind them.

 

[Louie G.]

The biggest feeling I got out of the DLC is "Left out of the party."

I heavily relate to this - that being said, I've found enjoyment in the characters on their own merit, their unique gameplay and the happiness of others. But I still didn't really ever get my "moment" with DLC, and I can't lie and say it didn't make me feel a little bit empty after yesterday's aftermath.

Two of my favorite genres are Puzzle and Rhythm games, which remain absent from the roster in their entirety despite a vast library of options and plenty of unique moveset potential from them both. But I've kind of realized my taste is a little bit unorthodox and unfortunately I'm just unlucky enough for my picks to be outside the realm of what's actually profitable. I think maybe they could have sacrificed one or two characters from a certain category and put that effort toward expanding into other areas and pleasing as diverse an audience as possible, but it is what it is. I've made peace with that.

...But man, Capcom still should have got another character lmao. I would have been happy with just about anyone. Huge missed opportunity and I'll at least stand by that much, just by how many fantastic options there were. Just another instance of me being dealt an unlucky hand, but it's clear that DLC made millions of other players as happy as I could have hoped to be so, kinda corny but that's still worth a whole lot.

I think Bandana Dee support will grow.

Yeah me too, Bandana Dee is one of the few instances I can think of where support for a first party has remained just as strong if not gotten stronger over the course of both Smash 4 and Ultimate. Come next time around I imagine there will be a lot of outcry for more Kirby content, particularly the kind that Sakurai wasn't directly involved in of course.

 

[Sucumbio]

In a literal sea of thousands of video game characters Smash Ultimate gave us 89.

89.

Some were echos... Some were many people's most wanted, many were returning characters.

Many represented one franchise.

Many franchises only got 1 or 2 inclusions.

My take away is this:

As much as the general public wants whatever character to be playable there's only so many that can actually be viable for many reasons the least of which is whether or not they're first or third party, "relevant," translatable to a fighting game character, etc.

So yes, many characters will be passed over and many people will be disappointed but one thing is certain. What we did get, what we will get..... Is still awesome compared to the alternative which is no Smash game at all, and I'd take 10 corrins over a universe where Smash doesn't exist.

Enjoy what we have people.

 

[kylexv]

Pic of the Day:

※スマブラの画面です pic.twitter.com/WSzODmcDbp

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) October 7, 2021

(This is a screenshot of Smash Bros.)

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Chrom and Dark Samus were also explicitly confirmed in a Sakurai Famitsu column to have been influenced by the ballot.

8-player Smash between all the ballot picks on the 19th! Here we go! :D

vs.vs.vs.vs.vs.vs.vs. Sora

 

[kylexv]

Pic of the Day:

※スマブラの画面です pic.twitter.com/WSzODmcDbp

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) October 7, 2021

(This is a screenshot of Smash Bros.)

By the way, I love how Sakurai specifies that this is a Smash Bros. screenshot, emphasizing how unbelievable this game has become.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Every characters is worthy to be added, they all have their fans, their demands and hopes. But in the end, it's not our choice.
So let's just continue to support them, without spitting on other's liking?

If it were up to me who got added into Smash 6, I'd do another Smash ballot, then I'd alternate between ballot winners and my own most wanted till I ran out of budget.

Basically, I totally see the argument and think it’s valid- but I don’t necessarily agree that Smash is the problem. The problem is the industry itself and that it only recently has truly been creating new, excellent characters of color, etc. I can only hope that things continue to open up in that regard. Honestly I hope DeathLoop was a big step to that eventual reality. It’s a great game btw.

So what you're saying is...Shantae for Smash 6!

I wonder how Etika would have reacted to Sora…

Screaming a lot and pretending to break something, I assume.

Neku and Phoenix for next game pls

I can only assume that Neku's chances of getting into Smash were absolutely obliterated by Sora getting in.

Tales
Resident Evil
Devil May Cry
Final Fantasy games outside of VII
Puyo Puyo
Halo
Doom
Yakuza
Fate
Ninja Gaiden
Ghosts N' Goblins
Getting characters from the already-stablished franchises like Chun-Li or Shadow
I don't know, that doesn't look like very little to me, and certainly looks like a bigger pool when compared to what newcomers Nintendo themselves have offered in this game.

 

[Shroob]

8-player Smash between all the ballot picks on the 19th! Here we go! :D

vs.vs.vs.vs.vs.vs.vs. Sora

There's an emote now you know.

 

[Warumian]

I don't mind Doom getting picked over Wolfenstein. I just want people to stop CALLING Doom the first.

I though it was general videogame knowledge that Wolfenstein 3D came before Doom.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Also a team battle.

vs.vs.Sora vs.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Baby Bowser for smash 6 because Nintendo likes to add babies to games. (like the 600 babies MK8 has).

I mean... if his Final Smash is a reference to his boss fight...

 

[Michael the Spikester]

There's an emote now you know.

For me the emotes are still going through an identity crisis. What is Sora is shown as Alex.

 

[Shroob]

For me the emotes are still going through an identity crisis. What is Sora is shown as Alex.

Clear your cache.

 

[Will]

Meanwhile the DS just has ... arguably.

Arguably? He has to be or else you're saying he's our first anime character.

 

[Nekoo]

For me the emotes are still going through an identity crisis. What is Sora is shown as Alex.

Clear your cache.

Shh.

It's because of the KH lore.
Everyone is either Sora or Xehanort one way or another in the end.

 

[DarthEnderX]

There's an emote now you know.

Still looks like Alex to me.

Clear your cache.

Thanks!

 

[Ivander]

Man, I wish I was invested into Bandana Dee as much as his fans and while I certainly hope the newer Kirby games get more acknowledgement in future Smash games than just spirits/music/etc.....is it wrong of me to want a Kirby villain that isn't Meta Knight or King Dedede or one of the Kirby series Mages? Bandana Dee is a case where I'm far from against him getting in Smash and would certainly be happy for his fans....but I'd love to see Dark Matter or one of the Mages like Magolor in Smash(although the way it feels, Sakurai would probably put in playable Marx first.)
But that's probably because I really like alot of the final bosses or antagonists' designs and I'm like, "This is probably the closest to an Eldritch Abomination character I can get to play in Smash." I mean, we do have Dark Samus and Sephiroth, although neither of their more Eldritch forms are playable, like DS' Prime Form/MP2 End form or Sephiroth's Safer form. But it also helps that Dark Matter is one of the more recurring Kirby villains and the Mages are one of the more recurring Kirby elements/antagonist types.

 

[PeridotGX]

You were never getting one of those, bro. It’s clear that Nintendo’s focus now with their own characters are either modern characters () or characters with insane fan demand ().

If you want smaller, old characters then you’re going to have to rally an army. Or hope one of them gets picked as the game’s designated weirdo newcomer.

We really don't have the sample size to prove this for sure. Ultimate base game barely had any slots to work with, and the DLC focused on third parties. We would need a 4-sized batch of characters to prove this.

 

[N3ON]

Any character can be made fun to play. You can't make a character be iconic.

Sakurai: challenge accepted

yes i know what you meant

 

[Dan Quixote]

I though it was general videogame knowledge that Wolfenstein 3D came before Doom.

Not to mention sometimes it takes a a few games for a genre to really become the revolution that it's known for. Like maybe most famously, the first Street Fighter game kind of stinks according to most people, but of course Street Fighter II somehow still holds up today as a masterpiece. But the first Street Fighter really was the first modern 2D fighter. So saying Doom still laid foundations down isn't super wrong.

 

[BlondeLombax]

Man, I wish I was invested into Bandana Dee as much as his fans and while I certainly hope the newer Kirby games get more acknowledgement in future Smash games than just spirits/music/etc.....is it wrong of me to want a Kirby villain that isn't Meta Knight or King Dedede or one of the Kirby series Mages? Bandana Dee is a case where I'm far from against him getting in Smash and would certainly be happy for his fans....but I'd love to see Dark Matter or one of the Mages like Magolor in Smash(although the way it feels, Sakurai would probably put in playable Marx first.)
But that's probably because I really like alot of the final bosses or antagonists' designs and I'm like, "This is probably the closest to an Eldritch Abomination character I can get to play in Smash." I mean, we do have Dark Samus and Sephiroth, although neither of their more Eldritch forms are playable, like DS' Prime Form/MP2 End form or Sephiroth's Safer form. But it also helps that Dark Matter is one of the more recurring Kirby villains and the Mages are one of the more recurring Kirby elements/antagonist types.

I reccomend Galacta Knight. That's my go-to Kirby pick (whenever I forget about Adeleine, that is).

 

[DarthEnderX]

Sakurai: challenge accepted

Can't argue with that.

 

[PeridotGX]

Arguably? He has to be or else you're saying he's our first anime character.

Pokemon Mystery Dungeon: Red/Blue Rescue Cream for the GBA/DS had a Lucario statue: this was well before D/P. It's debatable if it counts, but if it does then Lucario is a split rep between GBA and DS.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Pokemon and Universal Studios Japan have announced a partnership.

Serebii Update: The Pokémon Company and Universal Studios Japan have announced a partnership, which will begin in 2022. Details @ https://t.co/gDbXkIa6cr pic.twitter.com/SWMXCzBSVJ

— Serebii.net (@SerebiiNet) October 6, 2021

 

[7NATOR]

The one character I don't have any idea about is Sephiroth. Like, did Nintendo just want that for their game? Did Sakurai say something about it? I have no idea. Kazuya I assume is because "popular fighting game" and "owned by Namco Bandai".

With Sephiroth, I think it was a Combination of things

-FF7 Being a very Iconic and Popular game
-Cloud being a Popular character in Smash
-Sephiroth himself being a Iconic Character and a Popular Character
-FF7 Remake making the FF7 Universe especially relevant, as well as FF7 being on Wii U and Switch
-To make the FF7 Universe feel completed in Smash

I think Sephiroth was probably thought of around the Same time someone like Ken Masters was, around the Time their Other Respective characters (Cloud and Ryu) got in.

Unlike Ken and Richter, Sephiroth would need the Full treatment of whole character, and also would need to be DLC. I think the Dev team knew Sephiroth, along with all the 3rd party DLC could not make it to Base roster before Ultimate went into Development, but I think because of the Following stuff, Nintendo was Accept to add in a character from something that already was represented in the game, because that game is FF7, and that character is Sephiroth. I also think the FF7 Universe being relevant and hyped up due to the Remake was also a big factor

And I do think the Remake being a thing is important to consider. Compare the situation with Sephiroth to something like Another Sonic character. I think unlike Ken and Richter, the Dev team wouldn't make any other Sonic Character an echo However It doesn't seem like they were priotized for Full Fighters at the time either sadly. Besides the Lack of Japanese Popularity, I think the fact that Sega released a game that could be considered Worse than Sonic 06 as apart of an Exclusive deal with Nintendo probably messed things up when it came to Another Sonic character in Smash. On the other side, I bet Nintendo could trust Square in not messing up the Remake, so there you go

 

[Sid-cada]

Yes, thank you, you put it better than I did. I may not dislike JRPGs and traditional fighters, and still got some characters I wanted out of FP1, but the closest I got in 2 was...Pyra & Mythra. I'd rather take Rex tbh.

Yeah, Pyra & Mythra were okay. Admitly, Min-Min was a monkey's paw sort of situation: I wanted an ARMS Fighter, but I had much preferred Spring Man and Min Min was towards the bottom half on the list of ARMS characters I liked.

Still, thanks for being the first to respond. I felt a bit less lonely already.

And as for Bandana Dee... I think your main obstacle there is Sakurai himself. Nintendo picked the DLC, true enough, but Dee's a base game kind of character anyway. The thing is, non-Sakurai Kirby content really does get pushed to the side, with only a few exceptions. And the way BWD has been treated in Smash so far makes me think he's more part of the trend than the exception. Which is unfortunate for his fans, considering it's not like he lacks merit. So that one will continue to be an uphill battle.

Perhaps I could have said it in my post, but I am aware of the Sakurai Bias. You can't be part of the Kirby fandom like I am and hear the "Sakurai believes there are only 6 Kirby games" jokes. I mostly ignored it because I was more focused on venting over my feelings over the DLC, rather than venting over the lack of Dee. It's just that I felt for the longest time that he had a big shot when it turns out he didn't compounded my frustrations with characters I was more ambivalent towards that everyone else was going crazy for.

At least he has a good chance in the next game, right?

I heavily relate to this - that being said, I've found enjoyment in the characters on their own merit, their unique gameplay and the happiness of others. But I still didn't really ever get my "moment" with DLC, and I can't lie and say it didn't make me feel a little bit empty after yesterday's aftermath.

I think the biggest thing between my ability to react between the DLC and yours was that you were able to make peace with the fact that your most wanted were ultimately unlikely early on, while it took me until near the end of the second pass to come to terms with it. I really thought he had a chance probably longer than I should have, so I was ultimately setting myself up for disappointment. I guess I was still unclear on what DLC is meant to appeal to, and it turns out that ended up being not the sort of person I was.

Man, I wish I was invested into Bandana Dee as much as his fans and while I certainly hope the newer Kirby games get more acknowledgement in future Smash games than just spirits/music/etc.....is it wrong of me to want a Kirby villain that isn't Meta Knight or King Dedede or one of the Kirby series Mages? Bandana Dee is a case where I'm far from against him getting in Smash and would certainly be happy for his fans....but I'd love to see Dark Matter or one of the Mages like Magolor in Smash(although the way it feels, Sakurai would probably put in playable Marx first.)
But that's probably because I really like alot of the final bosses or antagonists' designs and I'm like, "This is probably the closest to an Eldritch Abomination character I can get to play in Smash." I mean, we do have Dark Samus and Sephiroth, although neither of their more Eldritch forms are playable, like DS' Prime Form/MP2 End form or Sephiroth's Safer form. But it also helps that Dark Matter is one of the more recurring Kirby villains and the Mages are one of the more recurring Kirby elements/antagonist types.

Hey, I'm a fan of Dark Matter and Magolor coming in too. Probably not all three with Bandanna Dee introduced at the same time, but it'd be nice to have them in too. I have even made some Dark Matter move sets in my head, though never made much going into placing it on paper.

It's just a case where it seems... weird placing other characters before BWD, if you can understand it? Remember how when Rosalina came out, and some people said it felt weird that she came before Toad? It's sort of like that.

Most people consider Kirby, Dedede, MK, and BWD to be a set. and I believe even the current director Shinya Kumazaki said he considers them to be a group. As much as people like to rag on completing fan made groups, when the director says their toggether, that must have some merrit?

The thing is, in my mind, Dee needs to get in first.