Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[Guynamednelson]

I remember there being some negativity towards Bayonetta after her reveal and before people started playing as her. I don't remember it being THAT strong or really overpowering the positivity but the negativity was definitely there atleast.

Some people did wonder how SHE could've been the ballot choice.

 

[ZelDan]

Some people did wonder how SHE could've been the ballot choice.

Honestly, as a huge Bayonetta fan myself even I was kind of surprised to find out she did so well on the ballot...

 

[PSIGuy]

Didn't they start work in Bayonetta way before the ballot ended? More likely it was always meant to gather information for Ultimate, not Smash 4.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Didn't they start work in Bayonetta way before the ballot ended? More likely it was always meant to gather information for Ultimate, not Smash 4.

Yeah, they found data years later about Bayonetta being included in the patch two weeks after the ballot opened.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Didn't they start work in Bayonetta way before the ballot ended? More likely it was always meant to gather information for Ultimate, not Smash 4.

Yeah, it’s speculated that Nintendo picked someone who was doing well very early in the ballot and chose them to be the character included in this game. All the other, almost certainly more popular choices, would end up in Ultimate in some way.

People like to say “the Ballot was a scam” just because Bayonetta won. However, Bayonetta had a pretty large, for the Wii U, and VERY vocal fanbase during that era. It was more people shifting the blame to Nintendo for their character not making it.

To be fair, Wolf and Snake were probably never going to make it back since Sakurai himself said that he didn’t want the DLC to seem like they kept stuff out just to sell later, this was after Roy and Lucas. And the other, most popular characters, make sense to save for next game because it’s a guaranteed hype generator. So yeah, Bayonetta was never the problem, it was just not what people expected.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Since we didn't know about the data thing back then, from what I remember a lot of people who were bitter at Bayo's inclusion were also blaming all the "morons who wasted their votes on Goku and Shrek", since Sakurai described Bayo as the highest "among the negotiable and realizable characters".

 

[N3ON]

People got the wrong idea about the ballot in that they thought it would somehow be some straightforward election where the most popular character would get included, rather than a suggestion box where Nintendo would presumably look at the characters that got a lot of attention and make decisions based on that. To that end I argued that the ballot hadn't been rigged in that we were never promised the most popular would be the one we'd get.

However, they didn't even do that. They decided who they were going to add before the ballot even came out, and then had a very awkward explanation as to how she "won". And that, well that is rigging the ballot. So all those people crying conspiracy were actually right. Wild.

Of course they would use it for Ultimate, but that wasn't exactly the picture they painted for us back then.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

New Ilumination and Nintendo news.

Nintendo comments on Illumination CEO Chris Meledandri becoming an outside director https://t.co/ptpBcCrrHD pic.twitter.com/d94mjKeUyu

— Nintendo Everything (@NinEverything) May 7, 2021

 

[chocolatejr9]

New Ilumination and Nintendo news.

Nintendo comments on Illumination CEO Chris Meledandri becoming an outside director https://t.co/ptpBcCrrHD pic.twitter.com/d94mjKeUyu

— Nintendo Everything (@NinEverything) May 7, 2021

What's an Outside Director?

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

What's an Outside Director?

A member from outside the company that’s a part of the Board of Directors.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

I don’t remember much about Bayo and Corrins reveal since I was so young. People were pissed though, I thought they were cool because of one being a trash talking bat lady with control over time, and the other wielded a chainsaw sword and could turn into a dragon.

Nothing beats chainsaw swords. Nothing.

 

[N3ON]

New Ilumination and Nintendo news.

Nintendo comments on Illumination CEO Chris Meledandri becoming an outside director https://t.co/ptpBcCrrHD pic.twitter.com/d94mjKeUyu

— Nintendo Everything (@NinEverything) May 7, 2021

Mr. Meledandri, the founder of Illumination Entertainment, has extensive experience as a film producer. We would like to nominate him as a new Outside Director with the expectation that he will appropriately supervise our companyʼs management from an objective perspective, while providing valuable advice to our organization, based on his broad experience and insight gained as a leader in the field of entertainment.

We believe that the addition of Mr. Meledandri will help to ensure our balance of diversity, including global perspective, knowledge, and experience, further enhancing the effectiveness of our Board of Directors.

Yup, saying something while also saying nothing. Good PR.

I'm guessing he'll be supervising and guiding Nintendo branching out into different mediums, such as western animation, probably largely under Illumination, and other things of a similar nature. At most, he'll probably be consulted on appealing to and working with global markets outside of games specifically, as Nintendo's board of directors is, afaik, entirely Japanese otherwise.

And that's good I guess. Nintendo's ability to read and appeal to markets outside Japan has always seemed inconsistent.

What's an Outside Director?

Someone on the board of Directors who doesn't work for or previously own a part of Nintendo. A very high level consultant and potential manager, sort of.

 

[kylexv]

Pic of the Day:

pic.twitter.com/mN4dhR3icL

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) May 7, 2021

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Nintendo also said it poorly, in the case of Bayonetta's position. She did damn well in the ballot, but it's assumed she was chosen from it despite them not literally saying that. That's how poorly they said it. It looked more implied than they intended. It would've been nice if they outright specified it better, though.

It's also possible she was chosen really early on due to the first moments of the ballot having her with high numbers, but the datamine makes it more likely she was already chosen for another reason. Probably cause Nintendo was promoting the hell out of her(and Sakurai was able to make her work within CERO's ratings, etc). Another thought is that they spoke of her position on the ballot to say "we made the right choice, and this is why". Despite not realizing it would give a far different impression of how the ballot worked.

...Calling it a ballot also didn't help. I remember it saying a character "might" be chosen as DLC. I can't remember if it was in the English version, though. Overall, it was handled verrrrrry poorly.

 

[Gnateb]

Is Sakurai really referencing a Zombie grinder? Lol

 

[Idon]

Is Sakurai really referencing a Zombie grinder? Lol

Probably.

The cobblestone + mossy cobblestone in a box makes me think it's a dunegon.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

One thing about Bayo I always found funny was how she was pretty damn popular on NeoGAF and tumblr when it came to Smash speculation yet on here, she got lambastwd for not being who you voted for to the point one dumbass in particular tried to argue that you could sue Nintendo for releasing Bayonetta and had a good chance of winning

 

[Sophitia]

Nintendo also said it poorly, in the case of Bayonetta's position. She did damn well in the ballot, but it's assumed she was chosen from it despite them not literally saying that. That's how poorly they said it. It looked more implied than they intended. It would've been nice if they outright specified it better, though.

It's also possible she was chosen really early on due to the first moments of the ballot having her with high numbers, but the datamine makes it more likely she was already chosen for another reason. Probably cause Nintendo was promoting the hell out of her(and Sakurai was able to make her work within CERO's ratings, etc). Another thought is that they spoke of her position on the ballot to say "we made the right choice, and this is why". Despite not realizing it would give a far different impression of how the ballot worked.

...Calling it a ballot also didn't help. I remember it saying a character "might" be chosen as DLC. I can't remember if it was in the English version, though. Overall, it was handled verrrrrry poorly.

I think another things was them saying she was #1 among "viable" candidates. Well, that is really ambiguous, because depending on what they considered viable it could have meant as few as literally just her.

 

[Shroob]

One thing about Bayo I always found funny was how she was pretty damn popular on NeoGAF and tumblr when it came to Smash speculation yet on here, she got lambastwd for not being who you voted for to the point one dumbass in particular tried to argue that you could sue Nintendo for releasing Bayonetta and had a good chance of winning

Holy **** I remember this.


I had completely buried this in the back of my mind but I ****ing remember this.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Also, those polls aren't going to be worth much when the most number of votes a character got is 69. That's a pretty small sample. That said, that top 11 seems about right insofar as the members if not the ranking.

Maybe, but I don’t think there were any polls back then with a bigger sample size with clear results. That being said, the results are still interesting.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

When do you guys think CP11 will release?

Double reveal with CP10 next month, releases September-October.

 

[Dinoman96]

One thing about Bayo I always found funny was how she was pretty damn popular on NeoGAF and tumblr when it came to Smash speculation yet on here, she got lambastwd for not being who you voted for to the point one dumbass in particular tried to argue that you could sue Nintendo for releasing Bayonetta and had a good chance of winning

NeoGAF/ResetERA have always been big Platinum/Bayonetta fanboys/girls so that's not that surprising. Bayo 2 was actually GAF's 2014 GOTY (https://www.neogaf.com/threads/neogaf-games-of-the-year-2014-awards.973706/)

 

[The Rhythm Theif]

Nothing beats chainsaw swords. Nothing.

True, man.

I lost my s*** over Cloud's reveal though. To this day, it still remains my favorite Super Smash Bros. reveal in HISTORY.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I think another things was them saying she was #1 among "viable" candidates. Well, that is really ambiguous, because depending on what they considered viable it could have meant as few as literally just her.

Actually, what they said was she was voted number 1 in UK, and top 5 in US.

A very different statement. Considering who became costumes, it's easy to guess who some of those were(Isabelle, Inkling, King K. Rool).

Edit: My bad. They said all three statements overall. I forgot about what you said. I just remember the other two parts a lot better due to being there the entire time for Bayonetta discussion. This is also why her statements are misleading, but only if the ballot didn't slightly influence her inclusion. Her being considered(and maybe some work done to show off to Sega how well she could be) before the ballot started might be what we found instead, and then the ballot confirmed she's a good choice very early on. So it might not be a case of all those votes mattered, but enough flooded in that they were happy to go with, and it helped Sega agree to do so as well? There's a lot of possibilities, since "barely two weeks" can be enough in the right context.

 

[Perkilator]

Daily reminder that Sora's moveset alone can work without Disney characters.

Smash Overhauls: Sora

docs.google.com

I made sure that every single attack in this moveset was something he did in the games.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Good Vibes Gaming did a discussion video on who are going to be the last two fighters for Smash.

 

[Brother AJ]

Daily reminder that Sora's moveset alone can work without Disney characters.

Smash Overhauls: Sora

docs.google.com

I made sure that every single attack in this moveset was something he did in the games.

To be perfectly honest Sora would feel a bit empty without Disney references. Especially without his two partners in crime, Donald and Goofy.

 

[Megadoomer]

Daily reminder that Sora's moveset alone can work without Disney characters.

Smash Overhauls: Sora

docs.google.com

I made sure that every single attack in this moveset was something he did in the games.

I don't think anyone's questioning that he doesn't have enough of a moveset to work with; I've only played Kingdom Hearts 1 and Chain of Memories, and I can clearly see how he would work. Him being owned by Disney seems like the bigger obstacle. (between games like Duck Tales Remastered and most Marvel vs. Capcom titles being removed from digital stores, they seem hesitant to keep digital content around for a while)

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I think Disney honestly wouldn't be that hard to work with. It's more on Sakurai and Nintendo and how they want to portray the Disney elements. Whether it's Spirits or a Final Smash. Disney is fine with Sora not having those, so that's a lot easier to license. But it's also a very big crossover, and let's be real, the Disney stuff is an important part of KH no matter how you cut it. Not everybody cares about it, but it's literally integral to its creation as a series, being a crossover of Final Fantasy and Disney.

Would Sakurai and Nintendo want to represent that, even with small cameos? Probably. But that's assuming Nintendo even brings up Sora to Sakurai(which has a pretty fair chance of happening). The only real thing that is Disney-related that'd be there without much hassle is the Mickey emblem on the core keyblade, and the rest could depend entirely on discussions and what Disney wants promoted at the time. Nostalgia is also important with characters, too, something Sakurai would taken into account.

It's easy for the moveset to be Disney-free, but the moveset isn't the whole picture. There's an entire pack to fill out, tons of songs, spirits, etc. Sure, it's possible to do so, but I honestly don't think Sakurai cares much at all about cameos compared to playable characters either. I'd worry more about Mii costumes being Disney-free than Spirits, which are not just easier to license anyway(since it's not a model you have to make sure looks correct in all animations, but fits the company's preferences for proportions, and that's ignoring that a Mii Hat isn't exactly enticing to Disney compared to a deluxe costume), but also don't take much to have a nice simple effect on gameplay. Discussions aren't as difficult for smaller items in a game.

 

[Technomage]

I think Disney honestly wouldn't be that hard to work with. It's more on Sakurai and Nintendo and how they want to portray the Disney elements. Whether it's Spirits or a Final Smash. Disney is fine with Sora not having those, so that's a lot easier to license. But it's also a very big crossover, and let's be real, the Disney stuff is an important part of KH no matter how you cut it. Not everybody cares about it, but it's literally integral to its creation as a series, being a crossover of Final Fantasy and Disney.

Would Sakurai and Nintendo want to represent that, even with small cameos? Probably. But that's assuming Nintendo even brings up Sora to Sakurai(which has a pretty fair chance of happening). The only real thing that is Disney-related that'd be there without much hassle is the Mickey emblem on the core keyblade, and the rest could depend entirely on discussions and what Disney wants promoted at the time. Nostalgia is also important with characters, too, something Sakurai would taken into account.

It's easy for the moveset to be Disney-free, but the moveset isn't the whole picture. There's an entire pack to fill out, tons of songs, spirits, etc. Sure, it's possible to do so, but I honestly don't think Sakurai cares much at all about cameos compared to playable characters either. I'd worry more about Mii costumes being Disney-free than Spirits, which are not just easier to license anyway(since it's not a model you have to make sure looks correct in all animations, but fits the company's preferences for proportions, and that's ignoring that a Mii Hat isn't exactly enticing to Disney compared to a deluxe costume), but also don't take much to have a nice simple effect on gameplay. Discussions aren't as difficult for smaller items in a game.

I gotta ask: While I'd personally be okay with more than a few small Disney things appearing in Smash, would it open any floodgate the same way other non-game characters would?

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

NeoGAF/ResetERA have always been big Platinum/Bayonetta fanboys/girls so that's not that surprising. Bayo 2 was actually GAF's 2014 GOTY (https://www.neogaf.com/threads/neogaf-games-of-the-year-2014-awards.973706/)

It was most people’s 2014 GotY...

I still don’t know HOW Dragon Age Inquisition won it at the Game Awards that year. It wasn’t as well reviewed as Baynoetta. No one even remembers that game to this day.

My GotY was Tropical Freeze but hot damn if Bayonetta 2 isn’t a HUGELY solid 2nd place.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I gotta ask: While I'd personally be okay with more than a few small Disney things appearing in Smash, would it open any floodgate the same way other non-game characters would?

Why would it? We have cameos/references to non-game materials beforehand.

Only a playable non-game characters could potentially open that floodgate. And it would barely, as anyone would be already a huge character to begin with. I.E. Goku would mean big characters like Mickey, Spongebob, Naruto, etc. They actually are legitimately notable. We aren't going to get obscure/niche non-game 3rd parties just because it's possible. They're going to be already iconic on their own merit.

So nothing really actually changed in the end. Their chances don't change due to cameos. I mean, a Mickey Mouse game is literally mentioned during Brawl. That changed nothing either. Terry has a costume strictly from the animated adaptions. Sonic's dark costume only resembles the Dark Super Sonic design from Sonic X. DK's white costume actually resembles the Yeti from the cartoon, and barely resembles later snow creatures. Etc. Referencing non-game media for anyone is pretty normal. So... they need to be playable for their to be any possibility for a floodgate to be opened. This is the only reason why a Mii Costume is borderline, since they're meant to directly emulate a playable version of the character(though to be fair, it's already intentional that they can be used to represent non-game characters due to how they were promoted). But none of our costumes are from a non-gaming character at this time. Could it change? I don't think it will since it's a different thing from the other kind of cameos. If Sakurai directly wants to make it clear non-gaming characters wouldn't be chosen, that's pretty much going to apply to Mii Fighters anyway. He can't do anything about generic costumes being used that way, but he can control specific character costumes. Albeit, Nintendo is another story and holds some control(it's their series, not his), but they respect him a lot so I wouldn't really think it'd be different anyway with them involved.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

The argument for no cameos/references to non-game materials should have died once we got music from Advent Children, which is a movie.

 

[Perkilator]

The argument for no cameos/references to non-game materials should have died once we got music from Advent Children, which is a movie.

It's still a movie in the same universe as the game it's based on (which SE treats like any other FF-related material).

 

[Dukefire]

The further smash speculation dives, the more thoughts in the back of my head feels like an Indie character isn't possible for fighter status.

Really, the triple AAA titles seems to be the focus for the DLC passes. Though, surprises are always around the corner with Sakurai watching over the series for 20+ years.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The argument for no cameos/references to non-game materials should have died once we got music from Advent Children, which is a movie.

It was always a bad argument. The only issue with non-gaming materials is purely licensing. Cameos/references just plain don't matter anyway. As I noted before, a Mickey game was mentioned during Brawl. They already killed it well before Advent Children.

Frankly, it's the same type of cameo as a Spirit at this point. The difference is barely there. It's more notable in gameplay, and as I said earlier, a Mii Costume is similar to a playable character, which is a lot more understandable they won't do. But there's also things like how much more work it is, and it's not simply "takes time". A lot of costumes are just hats alone, for awkward characters. A good way to put it is that some would animate weirdly, so companies prefer the one thing that doesn't made them look strange, a hat. Even Dixie only has a hat. Same with Fox. You pretty much need a deluxe costume otherwise like Sans, and they still would be doing a ton of impossible movements for the character. A lot of companies vastly care about their portrayal, so a deluxe costume doesn't cut it either. Sometimes it's a mii hat or bust.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

It was most people’s 2014 GotY...

I still don’t know HOW Dragon Age Inquisition won it at the Game Awards that year. It wasn’t as well reviewed as Baynoetta. No one even remembers that game to this day.

My GotY was Tropical Freeze but hot damn if Bayonetta 2 isn’t a HUGELY solid 2nd place.

TGA's so America centric to the point that 'best performance' nominations literally never included dubs so it's not too surprising, it's like how the Oscars are especially biased against animated movies to the point that the category solely exists to deny them from being in the best picture nominees

 

[Technomage]

Good Vibes Gaming did a discussion video on who are going to be the last two fighters for Smash.

Hmmmmm, let's see... First I'm going to discuss characters I DON'T think well be part of the Pass, in order to narrow things down.

For example, while I think a Gen 8 Pokemon is possible, I don't think it would be the one revealed at E3 unless both fighters were to be revealed in the same event. I also don't think it'd be the final fighter, so if it were the fighters were to be revealed on separate dates, then the Mon would have to be revealed in May.

I also don't think Square or Microsoft will be triple dipping in the same pass (though I do think there's a chance they'll double dip), and Sakurai stated there won't be any echoes in the Passes.

Others I don't see happening:

Ryu Hayabusa: The lead developer of Ninja Gaiden (and possibly Koei-Tecmo as a whole) stated multiple times in separate interviews that they (as in Koei) have not received an invitation yet, and FP2's contents were finalized in November at the latest, before that final interview.
Assist Trophy promotions: While I'm keeping an open mind for them being possible in the same game, I don't think that would be very likely, especially after Min Min's addition (which is something I've stated more than a few times).
Another Fire Emblem character: We all know that kind of character reveal would yield a lot of outrage.


Now, onto candidates I do see happening as E3 reveals: I think the chances of it being a 3rd-party are high. I also see a Breath of the Wild 2 rep as a possibility, since that game is also likely to show a lot of its details at E3.

I also see a second Sonic rep, such as Eggman, as likely, since not only would another Sonic character be E3 material, but someone else also mentioned that such a character, with examples like Eggman, Infinite, and the Avatar, would make for a great tie-in to the loose-ends theory due to repping Sonic Forces, especially if the character were to be Eggman and his stage would be that ruined city from that game, complete with giant Badniks in the background and/or even stage hazards.

 

[The Rhythm Theif]

Had you argued for Sakura on the basis you argued for Lilith, it would've ended in people telling you that that isn't how Smash chooses its characters, not going on about double standards. It's a stronger argument to focus on popularity, but you can't really cherry pick when you do that. If popularity matters, it could matter across the board.

Nice statement, but remember when Sakurai said that a character being fun is more important than the character being recognizable? I went that route for Lilith and Sakura. You didn't think I only picked Sakura just for her popularity, did I?

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Nice statement, but remember when Sakurai said that a character being fun is more important than the character being recognizable? I went that route for Lilith and Sakura. You didn't think I only picked Sakura just for her popularity, did I?

He didn’t say that. What he said was

"When we released the original 64 version of Super Smash Brothers, I was often asked "Who is Samus?". Whether or not the character is fun to play as is more important than whether the character's new or old, or whether the character is recognizable to everyone."

Emphasis on the last part. Every DLC character is recognizable to some people but not every DLC is recognizable to everyone. I mean, we literally started this pass with .