Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[Sigran101]

Just when you thought the "Hero Situation" was the dumbest we could possibly go, this caught traction and one-upped it lmao. At least there was some logic behind the thought process that could lead to a composite ARMS character. This speculation leaned on several factors such as...

• ARMS 2 even being a thing
• ARMS 2 being so far into development that Sakurai could make a moveset for a brand new character from that game
• Spring Man and Co. no longer being the central characters of the series

I swear the speculation leading up to Min Min was some of the worst collective brainrot I've ever seen from the community. Sorry if I sound especially harsh about it, but jesus christ that was bad lmao. At least it's funny to look back on.

It got even worse though. People tried to claim that it was a shill pick even though ARMS came out years ago because ARMS 2 was "Obviously happening soon". Basically because ARMS isn't recent enough to be a shill pick, that means Nintendo wouldn't have picked it unless a sequel was coming out, hence making it obviously a shill pick and thus something to be angry about. There's literally nothing Nintendo could have done there.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

If I'm reading this correctly, that means we actually agree.

I half agree. Non statements mean nothing but a concrete "no" is an actual no. Essentially, assume truth, but beware smoke and mirrors.

The funniest part is that the people who argued for that actually claimed victory when Steve came out saying his alts "confirm" that it would have worked with ARMS.

Mhm. Because a character that can have literally anything as a skin is comparable to characters that hold value by their differences from each other.

In other words it doesn't have to be the same buff or nerf, it just has to be an equivalent effect? Which would mean that one having slightly more range but less power wouldn't be a problem. Violet would still be less different than Chrom or Ken.

Uh, kind of. What I'm trying to say is that when an Echo Fighter is made, they need to be of about equal power despite the differences (Chrom is different from Roy in that his consistant damage gives him a higher damage output in exchange for a worse recovery). Once the differences from each other are set in stone, the base and Echo Fighters are given the same changes when balancing further, and said changes should have about the same effect.

So like, when Ryu and Ken got Down Smash cancels, they rose in power about equally, but if you were to buff the damage of Pyra and Mythra, Pyra would probably start doing too much damage.

Does that make sense? I'm not sure that explanation was much better...

I wanted an idea for Alph as an Echo Fighter that not only was easy to implement but also guaranteed not to invalidate the idea of choosing him or Olimar so I decided to look at the less important moves, remembering that damage percentage now shows the decimals and made a safe enough change to justify Alph no longer being a alt as even the smallest gameplay chance means a different slot.

Oh OK. That makes sense.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Just when you thought the "Hero Situation" was the dumbest we could possibly go, this caught traction and one-upped it lmao. At least there was some logic behind the thought process that could lead to a composite ARMS character. This speculation leaned on several factors such as...

• ARMS 2 even being a thing
• ARMS 2 being so far into development that Sakurai could make a moveset for a brand new character from that game
• Spring Man and Co. no longer being the central characters of the series

I swear the speculation leading up to Min Min was some of the worst collective brainrot I've ever seen from the community. Sorry if I sound especially harsh about it, but jesus christ that was bad lmao - I think Byleth just ruined people for a while. At least it's funny to look back on.

I wish the novelty of the ARMS guessing game was more successful, but all it did was drive speculation in circles after a week and breed these insane nonsensical theories while we waited three months for anything substantial.

You ALSO got people theorizing the Dark Horse comic was finally happening

sadly

it appears to have been canceled now

 

[7NATOR]

I Remember when I thought they do all 15 ARMS Characters, as some sort of Mii Customization deal

I think I was too optimistic with that one

 

[Sigran101]

I half agree. Non statements mean nothing but a concrete "no" is an actual no. Essentially, assume truth, but beware smoke and mirrors.


Mhm. Because a character that can have literally anything as a skin is comparable to characters that hold value by their differences from each other.


Uh, kind of. What I'm trying to say is that when an Echo Fighter is made, they need to be of about equal power despite the differences (Chrom is different from Roy in that his consistant damage gives him a higher damage output in exchange for a worse recovery). Once the differences from each other are set in stone, the base and Echo Fighters are given the same changes when balancing further, and said changes should have about the same effect.

So like, when Ryu and Ken got Down Smash cancels, they rose in power about equally, but if you were to buff the damage of Pyra and Mythra, Pyra would probably start doing too much damage.

Does that make sense? I'm not sure that explanation was much better...


Oh OK. That makes sense.

I get what you mean, but the recovery is not what made Chrom and Roy equivalent. Chrom didn't have sour spots, but he didn't have any sweet spots either. He had a lower damage floor, but also a lower damage ceiling. That made the them equivalent. Chrom's Up B is arguably better than Roy's even with the nerf given its higher damage and usefulness in neutral.

 

[UltimateCyborgOverlord]

I Remember when I thought they do all 15 ARMS Characters, as some sort of Mii Customization deal

I think I was too optimistic with that one

I remember when very briefly people were theorizing a Koopaling situation with the ARMS fighter.

"That's why they showed the screen and started this guessing game: It's gonna be MULTIPLE IN ONE!"

That... didn't end up happening

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Why does the intent make a difference? It proves that not every buff or nerf has to affect both equally. If they can fix a problem with Chrom being overpowered by nerfing him and not Roy then why couldn't they do the same thing with Violet if she got in?

Because the thing with Chrom is based on a general design philosophy Ultimate has about suicide moves which is consistent through Bowser, Ganondorf, Kirby, Ridley, Hero, etc. Roy didn't get touched because Roy can't suicide attack like that. Every other Echo has been getting the exact same tweaks as the original fighter in every patch, meaning they're supposed to be the same in that regard. One general design philosophy doesn't invalidate the other

 

[Dinoman96]

Just when you thought the "Hero Situation" was the dumbest we could possibly go, this caught traction and one-upped it lmao. At least there was some logic behind the thought process that could lead to a composite ARMS character. This speculation leaned on several factors such as...

• ARMS 2 even being a thing
• ARMS 2 being so far into development that Sakurai could make a moveset for a brand new character from that game
• Spring Man and Co. no longer being the central characters of the series

I swear the speculation leading up to Min Min was some of the worst collective brainrot I've ever seen from the community. Sorry if I sound especially harsh about it, but jesus christ that was bad lmao - I think Byleth just ruined people for a while. At least it's funny to look back on.

I wish the novelty of the ARMS guessing game was more successful, but all it did was drive speculation in circles after a week and breed these insane nonsensical theories while we waited three months for anything substantial.

I guess the mindset of "ARMS 2 protag" was that it'd be the only possible option that wouldn't break any "rules": no assist trophy upgrades, no spirit upgrades, no skipping over the "main character" for a lesser one, etc.

 

[Speed Weed]

Pushing the idea that a Hero situation could work for ARMS was not one of my proudest moments, lemme tell ya that

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I get what you mean, but the recovery is not what made Chrom and Roy equivalent. Chrom didn't have sour spots, but he didn't have any sweet spots either. He had a lower damage floor, but also a lower damage ceiling. That made the them equivalent. Chrom's Up B is arguably better than Roy's even with the nerf given its higher damage and usefulness in neutral.

OK. And for the record, I do think something like having longer ranged normals in exchange for a less useful Gun that forces her to use said normals would be something they could do. I just wanted to confirm that this would make sense before jumping on the Violet Echo Fighter train.

 

[7NATOR]

I still do think that part of the reason Min Min was added was to shill the ARMS Franchise

Not the only reason mind you. If Min Min wasn't an interesting concept for a character on their own, and their weren't many discussions about an ARMS Fighter in Smash, I don't she they would have gotten in anyway

But considering they announced the ARMS Trial along with the Free Trial, they at least tried to bring more attention toward the franchise with the inclusion. ARMS did sell 2 million copies, so that's pretty good, but I think they still wanted attention towards it in the future

 

[ahemtoday]

She actually wields it one handed though, so even that wouldn't change.

Well, that's just irresponsible! Hasn't she learnt anything about gun safety?

...Nah, but if you couldn't tell, I've been getting all this stuff from the wiki, not firsthand experience. So thanks for the correction there.

 

[Ivander]

The reason Ninjara is often suggested as an Alt or Echo for Min-Min is because Ninjara's standard ARMs weapons are similar to and can function similarly to Min-Min's Arms.

Buff

The Buff is a Glove-type ARMS weapon.

armswiki.org

Chakram

The Chakram is a Curve-type ARMS weapon with the Stun attribute.

armswiki.org

Triblast

The Triblast is a Multi-Shot-type ARMS weapon with the Explosion attribute.

armswiki.org

• Buff can function like the Megawatt, as Buff can grow in size and it can be adjusted to go to Megawatt's size. That said, for Echo material, you can have Buff do less damage than the Megawatt in exchange for a bit of homing effect.
• Chakram is practically a pallet swap to Ramram.
• Triblast can do the whole "Extend, than fire a projectile-like attack" similarly to Dragon. The difference though is that Triblast fires missiles with wires compared to a beam attack.

Besides those, Ninjara is shown to be very flexible and athletic in his artwork, so him doing Min-Min's kicking moves and whatnot would not be a real problem.

Like I get that Min-Min is not really appropriate to do a Hero scenario, since all of the Arms characters have the different ARMs with different effects and they don't really have the same body-shape and flexibility, but if you wanted to do an Echo Fighter of Min-Min, Ninjara would not be impossible, as his ARMs are the closest to behaving similarly like Min-Min's ARMs and is capable of doing Min-Min's other moves.
The only real hurdle would be size as Ninjara is taller than Min-Min, but if an Echo Fighter, you could adjust his fighting posture to be similar in size & hitbox to Min-Min.

File:Version3-2-0Artwork.jpg

armswiki.org

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

That said, for Echo material, you can have Buff do less damage than the Megawatt in exchange for a bit of homing effect.

I'm not sure that would make sense since the homing effect is largely ignored in Super Smash Bros. (only the Dragon's lasers have it). Personally, I would only give it to the Homie and Seekie if they ever added those.

 

[Deleted member]

Boy, that interview sure made people split on Hayabusa possibly being in Vol 2. As it stands for Koei-Tecmo, we had 1 dev from Gust basically confirm Nintendo isn't interested in Ryza in Smash, and now, we have 1 dev from Team Ninja say they're waiting for the invitation. Honestly, it's too vague for me to rule out Hayabusa completely since he isn't saying it's not happening.

Amazingly enough, I haven't seen or heard any interviews from a dev at Omega-Force with Smash being mentioned, and given the amount of Musou titles under various IPs including Zelda and Fire Emblem, it's certainly got me thinking...

 

[DanganZilla5]

I just saw the Hayabusa interview. Yeah I think it's a blow, but not a full disconfirm. I kind of interpreted it as more of a playful comment rather than a straight up "We haven't been approached for Smash". But man I thought Hayabusa would be safe until the last character reveal.

 

[SharkLord]

The Joker/Violet situation really makes you think about what's too much or too little to be an Echo Fighter. I think she can work with Joker's animations fairly well with only a couple changes needed, like the jab combo and the up tilt. Eiha/Eigaon can be changed to a Bless-elemental analogue, and the Gun shouldn't be too much of a shift either, just exchange mobility for power. The main issue is the range; Would that still count her as an Echo? Or would that be enough to make her a semiclone? Doesn't help that we only have seven examples to go off of.

 

[Perkilator]

Alph could have been an easy Echo if they had just adjusted the damage of his down tilt and forward tilt by + and - 0.1% for those respective attacks and given him different taunts and idle animations.

Or, you know…replace the Purple Pikmin with Rock Pikmin?

Maybe even give Olimar the Pikmin Chain back and improve upon it, as well. For example, Olimar could have 6 Pikmin in that chain by default, and the three Pikmin with him could add to that chain.

It got even worse though. People tried to claim that it was a shill pick even though ARMS came out years ago because ARMS 2 was "Obviously happening soon". Basically because ARMS isn't recent enough to be a shill pick, that means Nintendo wouldn't have picked it unless a sequel was coming out, hence making it obviously a shill pick and thus something to be angry about. There's literally nothing Nintendo could have done there.

And yet people still think that if we get, say, Bandana Dee, it’d be to promote a new Kirby game even though we got , neither of which were really promoting anything at the time of their release.

 

[SNEKeater]

I don't think Hayabusa is out of the running. Obviously people should be cautious, but I think they gave an answer vague enough to go either way.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

The Joker/Violet situation really makes you think about what's too much or too little to be an Echo Fighter. I think she can work with Joker's animations fairly well with only a couple changes needed, like the jab combo and the up tilt. Eiha/Eigaon can be changed to a Bless-elemental analogue, and the Gun shouldn't be too much of a shift either, just exchange mobility for power. The main issue is the range; Would that still count her as an Echo? Or would that be enough to make her a semiclone? Doesn't help that we only have seven examples to go off of.

It also doesn't help that only a few of them even bother making the Echo Fighters significantly different. My theory is that anything is fair game so long as there aren't too many that can't reuse assets, and the characters are still similar enough to balance in the same way once you have the character differences locked in.

EDIT: Still wondering if Violet has a Wings of Rebellion equivalent.

 

[DanganZilla5]

The choice of which characters to call an echo is an anomaly to me. What I mean is this: Look at Dr. Mario and Ken. Ken has a lot more differences from Ryu than Dr. Mario from Mario. And yet Ken is an echo and Dr. Mario isn't. It seems inconsistent to me.

 

[SNEKeater]

An orchestra concert featuring the music of Ace Attorney will be held online on Saturday, April 10th, 2021(JST)!

Please check the official website for more details.https://t.co/0EHxbKgZ2B#AceAttorney#TheGreatAceAttorney#AceAttorneyOrchestraConcert pic.twitter.com/sjDk6NktDg

— Capcom USA (@CapcomUSA_) March 24, 2021

The #TheGreatAceAttorney hashtag is certainly... suspicious.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

And yet people still think that if we get, say, Bandana Dee, it’d be to promote a new Kirby game even though we got , neither of which were really promoting anything at the time of their release.

If someone like Bandana Dee ends up as DLC people wouldn’t be able to use the promotion as a reason to explain him as the presence of Kirby would make him redundant on that point, which is a reason why people think he is unlikely.

 

[ahemtoday]

It also doesn't help that only a few of them even bother making the Echo Fighters significantly different. My theory is that anything is fair game so long as there aren't too many that can't reuse assets, and the characters are still similar enough to balance in the same way once you have the character differences locked in.

EDIT: Still wondering if Violet has a Wings of Rebellion equivalent.

I mean, technically not even Joker has a Wings of Rebellion equivalent. 'S just made up.

 

[Perkilator]

pic.twitter.com/B41KXgyftD

— Walmart Canada Gaming (@WalmartCAGaming) March 24, 2021

Who would you pick?

I’d go with B. I wanna pick A for Crash, but…it’s also got Jonesy.

 

[UltimateCyborgOverlord]

pic.twitter.com/B41KXgyftD

— Walmart Canada Gaming (@WalmartCAGaming) March 24, 2021

Who would you pick?

I’d go with B. I wanna pick A for Crash, but…it’s also got Jonesy.

Hehehehe. Love the "Meowth's Party" reference there.

 

[7NATOR]

The choice of which characters to call an echo is an anomaly to me. What I mean is this: Look at Dr. Mario and Ken. Ken has a lot more differences from Ryu than Dr. Mario from Mario. And yet Ken is an echo and Dr. Mario isn't. It seems inconsistent to me.

You can't Play Dr.Mario like Mario the same way you could kind of play Ken like Ryu

Dr. Mario not only has alot of stat changes, but he also has alot of Hitbox property changes and such, and this is also in addition to the differences in his moves like Specials, and his few unique moves

Pretty much, Dr. Mario is balanced separately from Mario. Ken is balanced alongside Ryu, which is the difference that separates them as Non echo and Echo respectfully

 

[Technomage]

pic.twitter.com/B41KXgyftD

— Walmart Canada Gaming (@WalmartCAGaming) March 24, 2021

Who would you pick?

I’d go with B. I wanna pick A for Crash, but…it’s also got Jonesy.

I pick Crash; I want him more than the other chars (plus, he's also highly likely to get into FP2). I'd also pick Eggman.

 

[cashregister9]

pic.twitter.com/B41KXgyftD

— Walmart Canada Gaming (@WalmartCAGaming) March 24, 2021

Who would you pick?

I’d go with B. I wanna pick A for Crash, but…it’s also got Jonesy.

I kinda wanna pick A because of Jonesy. That **** would be hilarious. Crash would obviously be Rad as well

B would also be a good one.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

The choice of which characters to call an echo is an anomaly to me. What I mean is this: Look at Dr. Mario and Ken. Ken has a lot more differences from Ryu than Dr. Mario from Mario. And yet Ken is an echo and Dr. Mario isn't. It seems inconsistent to me.

I think it's because making a change that is a genuine improvement to Mario, it would likely make Dr. Mario unbalanced, and vice versa.

I mean, technically not even Joker has a Wings of Rebellion equivalent. 'S just made up.

True, though it is based on the fact that Arsene has wings. If Violet's doesn't then it wouldn't make sense to use the same thing, so I wonder what they would replace it with.

 

[SharkLord]

pic.twitter.com/B41KXgyftD

— Walmart Canada Gaming (@WalmartCAGaming) March 24, 2021

Who would you pick?

I’d go with B. I wanna pick A for Crash, but…it’s also got Jonesy.

Eggman and Sora, for being the most balanced in my interests. Master Chief would be cool, but Meowth... Yeah, we already have enough Gen I content. I don't care about Crash or Jonesy, so that would probably be my least favorite timeline.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I think B allows the pass to appeal to the greatest amount of people.

 

[Banado_Boy]

pic.twitter.com/B41KXgyftD

— Walmart Canada Gaming (@WalmartCAGaming) March 24, 2021

Who would you pick?

I’d go with B. I wanna pick A for Crash, but…it’s also got Jonesy.

I’d pick A for Crash, then close my eyes and pretend it’s Yuri speaking instead of Jonesy.

 

[chocolatejr9]

pic.twitter.com/B41KXgyftD

— Walmart Canada Gaming (@WalmartCAGaming) March 24, 2021

Who would you pick?

I’d go with B. I wanna pick A for Crash, but…it’s also got Jonesy.

This just reminds me we need more variety in newcomer discussions...

Also, C is most likely by virtue of ending on a first party.

 

[ahemtoday]

pic.twitter.com/B41KXgyftD

— Walmart Canada Gaming (@WalmartCAGaming) March 24, 2021

Who would you pick?

I’d go with B. I wanna pick A for Crash, but…it’s also got Jonesy.

B, no question.

I think it's because making a change that is a genuine improvement to Mario, it would likely make Dr. Mario unbalanced, and vice versa.


True, though it is based on the fact that Arsene has wings. If Violet's doesn't then it wouldn't make sense to use the same thing, so I wonder what they would replace it with.

Eh...

That's... definitely a cape and not wings, but at the same time if Violet flew with 'em, I'd buy it.

Or maybe she could just use the grappling hook all the time.

 

[Phoenix Douchebag]

Why is this pink/orange discussion some of the more interesting speculation since Pythra lmaoooo we really are in a leak drought

Don't tempt fate. Last time we had a drought this bad and kept wishing for leaks was.......



...........You know.

pic.twitter.com/B41KXgyftD

— Walmart Canada Gaming (@WalmartCAGaming) March 24, 2021

Who would you pick?

I’d go with B. I wanna pick A for Crash, but…it’s also got Jonesy.

Obviously Crash, but im happy someone on planet earth recognizes that Meowth got snubbed in Smash and deserves a shot.

I pick Crash; I want him more than the other chars (plus, he's also highly likely to get into FP2). I'd also pick Eggman.

I wish i had the same confidence as you, i don't see Crash happening anymore, and would probably the only character that would truly get me excited in the way Simon did.

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

Master Chief and Meowth would cause a lot of art and memes, and I'm here for it.

 

[AreJay25]

pic.twitter.com/B41KXgyftD

— Walmart Canada Gaming (@WalmartCAGaming) March 24, 2021

Who would you pick?

I’d go with B. I wanna pick A for Crash, but…it’s also got Jonesy.

B. I'm not even that much of a Kingdom Hearts fan. I just want the egg man, he's got the master plan.

 

[Lyncario]

pic.twitter.com/B41KXgyftD

— Walmart Canada Gaming (@WalmartCAGaming) March 24, 2021

Who would you pick?

I’d go with B. I wanna pick A for Crash, but…it’s also got Jonesy.

I choode the Sora timeline with extreme ease.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

pic.twitter.com/B41KXgyftD

— Walmart Canada Gaming (@WalmartCAGaming) March 24, 2021

Who would you pick?

I’d go with B. I wanna pick A for Crash, but…it’s also got Jonesy.

Outcome B...est out of the three.