Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[dream1ng]

Let's say there's ten people, you know one of them has stolen your apple.
You ask 9 of them if they stole it, all of them say no.
Does that mean the remaining person is the most likely to have stolen it?
No, because none of them would admit it either way.

And thus one is lying, and nine aren't. And you believe the most sensible course of action is to let that one liar dictate your view of nine innocent, truthful people instead of the belief that usually people are truthful, but every once in a while you're going to run into dishonesty.

If your goal is to never got stolen from again, then yeah, complete distrust is the way to go. But if you just want to know whether to believe someone, you'll have a 90% success rate if you take them at face value.

 

[Inue Houji]

And thus one is lying, and nine aren't. And you believe the most sensible course of action is to let that one liar dictate your view of nine innocent, truthful people instead of the belief that usually people are truthful, but every once in a while you're going to run into dishonesty.

If your goal is to never got stolen from again, then yeah, complete distrust is the way to go. But if you just want to know whether to believe someone, you'll have a 90% success rate if you take them at face value.

I'm not saying "don't trust them", I'm not saying "they're lying, Hayabusa is in!", I'm saying no useful information can be gleaned from it, as the answer was already known before it was asked. We aren't any wiser from the interview.

There is no speculation to be had, as it isn't new information.

 

[Sigran101]

Doesn't she use rapiers instead of a knife? And a completely different Persona? They could share specials, I guess, but there's no way they could use the same normal attacks.

No, she uses a short blade that's a little bigger than a dagger. Also, the persona in smash just augments attacks, and hers is similar enough to Arsene to do the same moves, just with the bless element instead of curse. Plus she's the one who teaches Joker how to use the grappling hook. Imo most of Joker's moves would be more natural on Violet than they are on Joker since she's a lot more acrobatic.

 

[DarthEnderX]

But if 5 of those people gave you a clear cut "no", and the other 5 gave you some vague non-answer, then it is extremely likely that the people who said no actually meant no. Since it means that they didn't feel the need to be coy or bend over backwards to avoid lying.

Or they're, ya know, more confident liars.

I mean, in this scenario you've presented, you have 5 vague answerers that were apparently involved in some kind of Ocean's 5 heist to steal your apple together...otherwise, you'd have 9 people that just said no instead of 5.

Yep! That's right! Ryu Hayabusa has been defeated by a tweet! He died as he lived, being tormented by birds.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Or they're, ya know, more confident liars.

I'm with dream1ng in that it makes more sense to assume all are truths than assume all are lies.

I mean, in this scenario you've presented, you have 5 vague answerers that were apparently involved in some kind of Ocean's 5 heist to steal your apple together...

I wasn't trying to imply that all vague answers are cover ups, as there are other reasons as to why they can be made. It's just that "no" means no and not "they're lying anyway so it doesn't matter".

 

[Sigran101]

Well they probably could since Joker's attack are pretty graceful and would work on a fencer, but they'd have to give Violet's attacks more hitboxes since the rapier is longer, and balance accordingly. Since Joker is super good without that range though, Violet would probably have to be balanced too differently to be considered an Echo Fighter so...yeah, it still doesn't work.

EDIT: Well...Maybe they'd be able to do it if she was slower where it counted and her Gun was way worse as a neutral and edge-guard tool.

Ya'll don't know what you're talking about. She doesn't use a rapier.

 

[Opossum]

Some people were bringing up that all of the character alts we've gotten are similar enough in personality for it to work, be they blank slates like Luminary/Erdrick/Solo/Eight or Steve/Alex/Zombie/Enderman, or are all piloting the same vehicle like Bowser Jr./Iggy/Larry/Lemmy/Morton/Roy/Wendy/Ludwig.

But I take issue with one of these specifically, and that's Olimar and Alph. And honestly, I think it's the single biggest instance of Smash making the wrong call when representing a character, far more than even Ganondorf being a Falcon clone, and that's saying something.

It's still so jarring to me to see Alph, a bright-eyed rookie engineer, act the exact same way as a somewhat-jaded, middle-aged, freight pilot father. Olimar's taunts are even awkward dad dances. It just feels wrong for Alph to be a skin instead of an echo to me.

Then again, it's not the first time an egregious characterization choice was made for a Pikmin character, what with the removal of Olimar's voice...

 

[TwiceEXE]

The great thing about speculation is you can believe whatever you want!

If you tell me I get 90% odds on an interview being truthful, I'm going to take it to the bank. But you don't have to! If you think Ryu is still in the running then it's completely fine. And if you think he's dead then it's completely fine. You're just chatting on an internet forum, not trying to distill every opinion down into one single, true idea.

 

[ahemtoday]

Ya'll don't know what you're talking about. She doesn't use a rapier.

Alright, fair enough, that's not a rapier (even though the game calls it one in the equipment menu). But it's definitely not a knife. It's like 2.5 times longer than Joker's knife, judging by the official art.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Ya'll don't know what you're talking about. She doesn't use a rapier.

I was assuming that ahemtoday did recall correctly (and I didn't do a good enough of a job in double checking since I didn't look at a large enough image to tell what the type of sword was, just that it was thin). Even so, it does look like a finesse weapon, so the animations would probably still look fine (in fact, the Up Smash would make even more sense than they would if she did have a rapier). I think what I said still applies. Unless she's super unga bunga in the original game, which I kind of doubt looking at her posing in the artwork.

Also, the persona in smash just augments attacks, and hers is similar enough to Arsene to do the same moves, just with the bless element instead of curse.

What about Wings of Rebellion? That would probably have to be replaced. EDIT: Or maybe not I dunno what her Persona is.

Slightly less important, but would Eiha and Aigon have to be replaced as well since they're based off of Arsenne's motifs? If so, would there be any spells that could act similarly?

 

[ahemtoday]

I was assuming that ahemtoday did recall correctly (and I didn't do a good enough of a job in double checking since I didn't look at a large enough image to tell what the type of sword was, just that it was thin). Even so, it does look like a finesse weapon, so the animations would probably still look fine (in fact, the Up Smash would make even more sense than they would if she did have a rapier). I think what I said still applies. Unless she's super unga bunga in the original game, which I kind of doubt looking at her posing in the artwork.


What about Wings of Rebellion? That would probably have to be replaced.

Slightly less important, but would Eiha and Aigon have to be replaced as well since they're based off of Arsenne's motifs? If so, would there be any spells that could act similarly?

Kouha and Kougaon are exact light-elemental equivalents to those spells.

The real thing to watch out for is that Violet uses a rifle instead of a pistol, but even then...

 

[TwiceEXE]

View attachment 308532
Alright, fair enough, that's not a rapier (even though the game calls it one in the equipment menu). But it's definitely not a knife. It's like 2.5 times longer than Joker's knife, judging by the official art.
View attachment 308533

It is a rapier, a traditional one. When most people think rapier they are picturing the extremely thin ones used for fencing. But rapiers were actually much more "blade" shaped back in the day.

Here is a rapier from the 17th century, for reference.

Spoiler

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Kouha and Kouhaon are exact light-elemental equivalents to those spells.

Well that lines up perfectly.

The real thing to watch out for is that Violet uses a rifle instead of a pistol, but even then...

What kind? If it would significantly change how Gun works, it might actually make Swordie Joker feasible without too many issues.

It is a rapier, a traditional one. When most people think rapier they are picturing the extremely thin ones used for fencing. But rapiers were actually much more "blade" shaped back in the day.

"lol that's not a rapier."

"Oops, you're right."

"Actually it is."

lol

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Some people were bringing up that all of the character alts we've gotten are similar enough in personality for it to work, be they blank slates like Luminary/Erdrick/Solo/Eight or Steve/Alex/Zombie/Enderman, or are all piloting the same vehicle like Bowser Jr./Iggy/Larry/Lemmy/Morton/Roy/Wendy/Ludwig.

But I take issue with one of these specifically, and that's Olimar and Alph. And honestly, I think it's the single biggest instance of Smash making the wrong call when representing a character, far more than even Ganondorf being a Falcon clone, and that's saying something.

It's still so jarring to me to see Alph, a bright-eyed rookie engineer, act the exact same way as a somewhat-jaded, middle-aged, freight pilot father. Olimar's taunts are even awkward dad dances. It just feels wrong for Alph to be a skin instead of an echo to me.

Then again, it's not the first time an egregious characterization choice was made for a Pikmin character, what with the removal of Olimar's voice...

What’s even weirder is that Daisy has shown that a character needs no real gameplay differences and a few distinct animation differences to get their own slots instead of being an alternate costume. Alph could have been an easy Echo if they had just adjusted the damage of his down tilt and forward tilt by + and - 0.1% for those respective attacks and given him different taunts and idle animations.

 

[ahemtoday]

What kind? If it would significantly change how Gun works, it might actually make Swordie Joker feasible without too many issues.

A Winchester rifle (and rifles of similar shape for her upgrades, presumably). I don't know much about guns, so I don't know what that would entail for a gameplay change beyond two-handed animations.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Alph could have been an easy Echo if they had just adjusted the damage of his down tilt and forward tilt by + and - 0.1% for those respective attacks...

That's...oddly specific and not at all impactful. What makes such a change necessary? I ask this in genuine curiosity, not to be snarky.

 

[Inue Houji]

The great thing about speculation is you can believe whatever you want!

If you tell me I get 90% odds on an interview being truthful, I'm going to take it to the bank. But you don't have to! If you think Ryu is still in the running then it's completely fine. And if you think he's dead then it's completely fine. You're just chatting on an internet forum, not trying to distill every opinion down into one single, true idea.

It isn't 90% odds, that's the point. No matter who you interview, you'll get the same answer.
Interview Sega, Capcom, Bamco, Squenix, Ubisoft, EA, Nintendo, it does not matter, the answer will always be, "not yes". The odds are unchanged for all of them.

Anyway, I'm done trying to explain this. It's simple math, but people refuse to understand. People will believe whatever they want I guess, as long as it fits their bias.

 

[Sigran101]

Well that lines up perfectly.


What kind? If it would significantly change how Gun works, it might actually make Swordie Joker feasible without too many issues.


"lol that's not a rapier."

"Oops, you're right."

"Actually it is."

lol

Her gun is bigger and fires more slowly, but would probably have more power. Also, her sword is much smaller than swordies in the game already and could be sized down extra for balance if need be. I picture her having slightly more range but having a weaker persona. Either way, if Sakurai can balance Sephiroth's 30 foot long sword, I'm sure he can figure out Joker with a slightly longer blade. The "character can't get in because it would be overpowered" argument is literally always wrong, just like it was with Ridley and Sephiroth, and just like it would be with this or Dante.

 

[UltimateCyborgOverlord]

So Ryu Hayabusa is possibly deconfirmed? Huh, well that's a shakeup...

So are we gonna say Koei Tecmo as a whole is dead, or do Warriors and/or Dead or Alive still have a chance?

I'm gonna guesss naw.. BUT... lemme imagine for a minute

I'd prefer Mila since she's the best DOA fighter (She will not LOOOOOOOOOOOSE!" ), but she wasn't on Nintendo systems/DOA Dimensions so instead...

KASUMI TIIIIIIIIIIIIIME


Hitomi time works too

 

[True Blue Warrior]

That's...oddly specific and not at all impactful. What makes such a change necessary? I ask this in genuine curiosity, not to be snarky.

What actual impactful gameplay difference does Daisy have from Peach? If she can be an Echo and not an alternate costume with that level of gameplay difference, then Alph doesn’t really need that much of a difference to begin with. At least having his own taunts and animations would do him more justice than being an alternate costume.

 

[TwiceEXE]

People will believe whatever they want I guess, as long as it fits their bias.

Why do you have to be the arbiter of what people want to believe? When you make a blanket statement that everyone who disagrees is biased it just makes you look like the biased one.

 

[Louie G.]

Shot in the dark, I feel like Alph is specifically a costume because Sakurai couldn't implement the Rock Pikmin in time, which likely would have been the driving force for making Alph a separate character. Put that on top of the fact that the Pikmin are the driving force behind the character, not Olimar or Alph themselves, so it may have been deemed redundant.

Can't say I really agree with the decision, I've heard very convincing points for why Alph could be his own character and they've done it with characters who arguably offer less. But I can at least see why it ended up the way it did, it's a shame they didn't revisit Alph and try and make him more original in Ultimate. I think it'd be nice to see Pikmin get some more love... even if I would personally opt for a playable Bulborb LOL.

Also anyone notice that these "vessel" characters who have to share a slot with another end up being some of the more forgettable characters on the roster? No disrespect toward Olimar or Bowser Jr, they're just characters who I either see people forgetting or I often gloss over myself. I think that's a testament to how far a clear personality goes in making a character feel like a significant part of things, not just an original moveset.

 

[Jocario Zero]

It was even more ridiculous with ARMS, because the variety between fighters is the bread and butter of any fighting game. It would be a piss poor way to showcase how fun and interesting your diverse cast of characters is by squishing them all into the same moveset through Smash. I still can't believe people were arguing this so genuinely at the time.

Don't remind me. Springman and Ribbon Girl maybe could have worked but having someone like Min Min as a costume for one of them?
Sorry but no. Hard disagree on that one.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Some people were bringing up that all of the character alts we've gotten are similar enough in personality for it to work, be they blank slates like Luminary/Erdrick/Solo/Eight or Steve/Alex/Zombie/Enderman, or are all piloting the same vehicle like Bowser Jr./Iggy/Larry/Lemmy/Morton/Roy/Wendy/Ludwig.

But I take issue with one of these specifically, and that's Olimar and Alph. And honestly, I think it's the single biggest instance of Smash making the wrong call when representing a character, far more than even Ganondorf being a Falcon clone, and that's saying something.

It's still so jarring to me to see Alph, a bright-eyed rookie engineer, act the exact same way as a somewhat-jaded, middle-aged, freight pilot father. Olimar's taunts are even awkward dad dances. It just feels wrong for Alph to be a skin instead of an echo to me.

Then again, it's not the first time an egregious characterization choice was made for a Pikmin character, what with the removal of Olimar's voice...

I think the issue with Olimar is that the devs didn't care much about showing his personality through animations to begin with. And to be fair most of his personality in the source material is shown through text. I'm not defending the choice but he has some pretty blank slate animations in Smash.

With Crash, being animated is thing. I can't see them making the same mistake they made with Olimar with him.

 

[Sigran101]

A Winchester rifle (and rifles of similar shape for her upgrades, presumably). I don't know much about guns, so I don't know what that would entail for a gameplay change beyond two-handed animations.

She actually wields it one handed though, so even that wouldn't change.

 

[Louie G.]

Don't remind me. Springman and Ribbon Girl maybe could've worked but having someone like Min Min as a costume for one of them?
Sorry but no. Hard disagree on that one

Suggesting Min Min as a costume was bad enough, but the worst one to me was NINJARA who was often lumped in as the fourth member of this hypothetical composite ARMS character.

Which is just a ****ing awful idea. Ninjara's whole thing is his speed, which would have to be sacrificed to maintain some level of consistency between the rest of the cast. His body type is relatively similar, but his ninja esque battle stances and drastically different stats made him wholly incompatible. Not to mention Min Min's kicks, but usually the suggestion was "they can just make Spring Man and Ribbon Girl kick" which... I disagreed with but was at least possible.

I still stand by the assumption that most of the people arguing this either never played ARMS in their life, or never played another fighting game in their life. Because when creating a brand new cast of characters for a fighting game, the MOST IMPORTANT thing is to determine how these characters differ from one another and play into their unique roles and archetypes. I can't think of a more disrespectful way to represent ARMS.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

It isn't 90% odds, that's the point. No matter who you interview, you'll get the same answer.
Interview Sega, Capcom, Bamco, Squenix, Ubisoft, EA, Nintendo, it does not matter, the answer will always be, "not yes". The odds are unchanged for all of them.

Anyway, I'm done trying to explain this. It's simple math, but people refuse to understand. People will believe whatever they want I guess, as long as it fits their bias.

I'm listening, I just don't think it follows that the answer always being "not yes" means that it is always "no", as it is oftentimes just a whole lot of nothing.

Her gun is bigger and fires more slowly, but would probably have more power. Also, her sword is much smaller than swordies in the game already and could be sized down extra for balance if need be. I picture her having slightly more range but having a weaker persona. Either way, if Sakurai can balance Sephiroth's 30 foot long sword, I'm sure he can figure out Joker with a slightly longer blade. The "character can't get in because it would be overpowered" argument is literally always wrong, just like it was with Ridley and Sephiroth, and just like it would be with this or Dante.

The reason behind my thought process is that in the case of Echo Fighters each buff that one gets has to have an equivalent tradeoff that doesn't affect how the character is balanced (meaning that, further down the line, the same buff to both characters would do about the same thing on both of them, which is true for characters like Ryu and Ken, but not Mario and Dr. Mario despite their movesets being about as similar as Ryu and Ken's are).

If Echo Fighters weren't as quick and dirty as they are, I probably wouldn't question her feasibility as one quite as hard.

Shot in the dark, I feel like Alph is specifically a costume because Sakurai couldn't implement the Rock Pikmin in time, which likely would have been the driving force for making Alph a separate character.

My theory on Rock Pikmin is that Pikmin seem to be doing a lot of the animation work, and Rock Pikmin would be a lot less clear due to the gray color, and lack of malleability. Otherwise, I feel like they would have been added anyway since other characters get similar changes like how the Koopalings have their wands.

Could be bunk could not be. I dunno.

 

[Inue Houji]

Why do you have to be the arbiter of what people want to believe? When you make a blanket statement that everyone who disagrees is biased it just makes you look like the biased one.

Because the logical conclusion is that it's a non-factor, anything else is psychoanalyzing the interviewee, which is highly inaccurate and requires way more information about them.

I'm listening, I just don't think it follows that the answer always being "not yes" means that it is always "no", as it is oftentimes just a whole lot of nothing.

If I'm reading this correctly, that means we actually agree.

 

[Sigran101]

I'm listening, I just don't think it follows that the answer always being "not yes" means that it is always "no", as it is oftentimes just a whole lot of nothing.


The reason behind my thought process is that in the case of Echo Fighters each buff that one gets has to have an equivalent tradeoff that doesn't affect how the character is balanced (meaning that, further down the line, the same buff to both characters would do about the same thing on both of them, which is true for characters like Ryu and Ken, but not Mario and Dr. Mario despite their movesets being about as similar as Ryu and Ken's are).

If Echo Fighters weren't as quick and dirty as they are, I probably wouldn't question her feasibility as one quite as hard.


My theory on Rock Pikmin is that Pikmin seem to be doing a lot of the animation work, and Rock Pikmin would be a lot less clear due to the gray color, and lack of malleability. Otherwise, I feel like they would have been added anyway since other characters get similar changes like how the Koopalings have their wands.

Could be bunk could not be. I dunno.

That's not accurate. For example, they nerfed Chrom's Up B and left Roy's alone (since they have entirely different up specials).

 

[UltimateCyborgOverlord]

Pikmin, huh?

I'm the animal that would have "The President" from Pikmin 2 as a separate fighter with more strength and he has a moveset entirely surrounding Purple Pikmin (Doing the ground slam after throwing them, grabbing and throwing heavy objects at others, having them toss The President himself to recover, etc), and the Final Smash is him summoning 100 Purple Pikmin to lift and chuck the Doomsday Apparatus at em.


And then introduce the Brawl Yard from Pikmin 2 multiplayer with the upside down bucket at the center of the stage and you gotta run by the Cannon Beetles in the background shooting at ya and it becomes basically a game of trying to stay on top of the bucket if you want to be safe and knock the others off and into the line of fire.

I might have thought about that just a bit too much.

 

[Dinoman96]

Suggesting Min Min as a costume was bad enough, but the worst one to me was NINJARA who was often lumped in as the fourth member of this hypothetical composite ARMS character.

Which is just a ****ing awful idea. Ninjara's whole thing is his speed, which would have to be sacrificed to maintain some level of consistency between the rest of the cast. His body type is relatively similar, but his ninja esque battle stances and drastically different stats made him wholly incompatible. Not to mention Min Min's kicks, but usually the suggestion was "they can just make Spring Man and Ribbon Girl kick" which... I disagreed with but was at least possible.

I still stand by the assumption that most of the people arguing this either never played ARMS in their life, or never played another fighting game in their life. Because when creating a brand new cast of characters for a fighting game, the MOST IMPORTANT thing is to determine how these characters differ from one another and play into their unique roles and archetypes.

Honestly I think a lot of the whole "ARMS composite character" idea came from people trying to rationalize Spring Man still being in the running inspite of them doing a big ARMS character guessing game, instead of just revealing him right on the spot there.

That would of been the only real way for Spring Man to be playable after that tease, because after that, it clearly wasn't just going to be the "boring" obvious poster character and no one else. The only options at that point were either it leading up to it being a surprise ARMS composite fighter with skins for Spring Man/Ribbon Girl/Min Min/Ninjara, or just forgoing the poster character for once and choosing someone else, which is what happened in the end with Min Min.

Oh, there were also people saying it'd be the protagonist for a currently nonexistent ARMS 2 lmao

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

What actual impactful gameplay difference does Daisy have from Peach? If she can be an Echo and not an alternate costume with that level of gameplay difference, then Alph doesn’t really need that much of a difference to begin with. At least having his own taunts and animations would do him more justice than being an alternate costume.

I wasn't saying that it needed to be impactful to be a thing, but I was just curious as to what gave you this idea since it seems pretty random.

Suggesting Min Min as a costume was bad enough, but the worst one to me was NINJARA who was often lumped in as the fourth member of this hypothetical composite ARMS character.

Which is just a ****ing awful idea. Ninjara's whole thing is his speed, which would have to be sacrificed to maintain some level of consistency between the rest of the cast. His body type is relatively similar, but his ninja esque battle stances and drastically different stats made him wholly incompatible. Not to mention Min Min's kicks, but usually the suggestion was "they can just make Spring Man and Ribbon Girl kick" which... I disagreed with but was at least possible.

And this the issues that surround the character who fits the most.

That's not accurate. For example, they nerfed Chrom's Up B and left Roy's alone (since they have entirely different up specials).

Which was how they counter-balanced Chrom's consistent hitboxes. After that though, they were balanced the same.

 

[Sigran101]

Suggesting Min Min as a costume was bad enough, but the worst one to me was NINJARA who was often lumped in as the fourth member of this hypothetical composite ARMS character.

Which is just a ****ing awful idea. Ninjara's whole thing is his speed, which would have to be sacrificed to maintain some level of consistency between the rest of the cast. His body type is relatively similar, but his ninja esque battle stances and drastically different stats made him wholly incompatible. Not to mention Min Min's kicks, but usually the suggestion was "they can just make Spring Man and Ribbon Girl kick" which... I disagreed with but was at least possible.

I still stand by the assumption that most of the people arguing this either never played ARMS in their life, or never played another fighting game in their life. Because when creating a brand new cast of characters for a fighting game, the MOST IMPORTANT thing is to determine how these characters differ from one another and play into their unique roles and archetypes. I can't think of a more disrespectful way to represent ARMS.

The funniest part is that the people who argued for that actually claimed victory when Steve came out saying his alts "confirm" that it would have worked with ARMS.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

You know its Smash speculation scene when a single potentially vague statement by Ninja Gaiden people within 8 hours leads to debates about the psychological merits of judging people's biases and wants.

Presumably Eggman ever potentially being disconfirmed will somehow spur arguments about the merits of free will and whether our hopes are truly our own or externalized influences we take in unconsciously.

 

[Jocario Zero]

Suggesting Min Min as a costume was bad enough, but the worst one to me was NINJARA who was often lumped in as the fourth member of this hypothetical composite ARMS character.

Which is just a ****ing awful idea. Ninjara's whole thing is his speed, which would have to be sacrificed to maintain some level of consistency between the rest of the cast. His body type is relatively similar, but his ninja esque battle stances and drastically different stats made him wholly incompatible. Not to mention Min Min's kicks, but usually the suggestion was "they can just make Spring Man and Ribbon Girl kick" which... I disagreed with but was at least possible.

Or even something like Min Mins dragon arm. I don't think she would have that as a costume.
Because of these discussions I now hate the term "hero situation".

 

[Sigran101]

I wasn't saying that it needed to be impactful to be a thing, but I was just curious as to what gave you this idea since it seems pretty random.


And this the issues that surround the character who fits the most.


Which was how they counter-balanced Chrom's consistent hitboxes. After that though, they were balanced the same.

In other words it doesn't have to be the same buff or nerf, it just has to be an equivalent effect? Which would mean that one having slightly more range but less power wouldn't be a problem. Violet would still be less different than Chrom or Ken.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

I wasn't saying that it needed to be impactful to be a thing, but I was just curious as to what gave you this idea since it seems pretty random.

I wanted an idea for Alph as an Echo Fighter that not only was easy to implement but also guaranteed not to invalidate the idea of choosing him or Olimar so I decided to look at the less important moves, remembering that damage percentage now shows the decimals and made a safe enough change to justify Alph no longer being a alt as even the smallest gameplay chance means a different slot.

 

[SKX31]

A Winchester rifle (and rifles of similar shape for her upgrades, presumably). I don't know much about guns, so I don't know what that would entail for a gameplay change beyond two-handed animations.

Her gun is bigger and fires more slowly, but would probably have more power. Also, her sword is much smaller than swordies in the game already and could be sized down extra for balance if need be. I picture her having slightly more range but having a weaker persona. Either way, if Sakurai can balance Sephiroth's 30 foot long sword, I'm sure he can figure out Joker with a slightly longer blade. The "character can't get in because it would be overpowered" argument is literally always wrong, just like it was with Ridley and Sephiroth, and just like it would be with this or Dante.

That might change it a bit - especially since Joker shoots at a decently rapid rate. FTR, his frame data shows that he shoots the Aerial Gun Down shots at frames 7 / 21 / 35 / 44. The longest interval is 14 frames;: since Smash runs at 60 FPS Joker shoots another bullet - at his slowest pace - every 1/4th of a second pretty much.

I used Aerial Gun Down specifically as a reference point and because it's effective at gimping recoveries (a bit too effective before a patch took away its diagonal shots) - other Gun attacks are faster, with the Spiral shooting every 3 frames (1/20th second). That wouldn't be realistic with a rifle, but hey, anime characters can do feats like stopping bullets, so what do I know about anime gun physics? ( )

The rifle might have a good trade off here where its rate of fire isn't nearly as much and might not have as fast start up as Joker's gun, but much more noticeable damage and knockback to encourage using the rifle with more precision.

(Sidenote about Gun: Gun gives Joker infinite directional airdodges as long as the move's used. That's another aspect of Gun that quite a few people have complained about, such as in this podcast. That's something that A) I'm honestly surprised Sakurai have not done anything about and B) would have to be adressed with a rifle involved, IMHO.)

I think the issue with Olimar is that the devs didn't care much about showing his personality through animations to begin with. And to be fair most of his personality in the source material is shown through text. I'm not defending the choice but he has some pretty blank slate animations in Smash.

With Crash, being animated is thing. I can't see them making the same mistake they made with Olimar with him.

Still, I'm a fierce proponent of making Olimar's animations more distinct (yes, this would be really difficult to do - he's tiny - but more exaggerated body movements wouldn't hurt) because it's really bloody difficult to tell apart his forward smash from his side B / grab.

That's not accurate. For example, they nerfed Chrom's Up B and left Roy's alone (since they have entirely different up specials).

The intent with that nerf is worth remembering. The nerf was very likely done in order to make sure that Chrom's suicide KO confirms did not kill the opponent first as often as it did when Ultimate released. Chrom's consistent hitboxes also was a major reason since he could confirm Jab -> Off stage Up B in a lot of scenarios (and still can IIRC). Roy, by contrast, does not have a suicide KO.

 

[Sigran101]

That might change it a bit - especially since Joker shoots at a decently rapid rate. FTR, his frame data shows that he shoots the Aerial Gun Down shots at frames 7 / 21 / 35 / 44. The longest interval is 14 frames;: since Smash runs at 60 FPS Joker shoots another bullet - at his slowest pace - every 1/4th of a second pretty much.

I used Aerial Gun Down specifically as a reference point and because it's effective at gimping recoveries (a bit too effective before a patch took away its diagonal shots) - other Gun attacks are faster, with the Spiral shooting every 3 frames (1/20th second). That wouldn't be realistic with a rifle, but hey, anime characters can do feats like stopping bullets, so what do I know about anime gun physics? ( )

The rifle might have a good trade off here where its rate of fire isn't nearly as much and might not have as fast start up as Joker's gun, but much more noticeable knockback to encourage using the rifle with more precision.

(Sidenote about Gun: Gun gives Joker infinite directional airdodges as long as the move's used. That's another aspect of Gun that quite a few people have complained about, such as in this podcast. That's something that A) I'm honestly surprised Sakurai have not done anything about and B) would have to be adressed with a rifle involved, IMHO.)



Still, I'm a fierce proponent of making Olimar's animations more distinct (yes, this would be really difficult to do - he's tiny - but more exaggerated body movements wouldn't hurt) because it's really bloody difficult to tell apart his forward smash from his side B / grab.



The intent with that nerf is worth remembering. The nerf was very likely done in order to make sure that Chrom's suicide KO confirms did not kill the opponent first as often as it did when Ultimate released. Chrom's consistent hitboxes also was a major reason since he could confirm Jab -> Off stage Up B in a lot of scenarios (and still can IIRC). Roy, by contrast, does not have a suicide KO.

Why does the intent make a difference? It proves that not every buff or nerf has to affect both equally. If they can fix a problem with Chrom being overpowered by nerfing him and not Roy then why couldn't they do the same thing with Violet if she got in?

 

[Louie G.]

Oh, there were also people saying it'd be the protagonist for a currently nonexistent ARMS 2 lmao

Just when you thought the "Hero Situation" was the dumbest we could possibly go, this caught traction and one-upped it lmao. At least there was some logic behind the thought process that could lead to a composite ARMS character. This speculation leaned on several factors such as...

• ARMS 2 even being a thing
• ARMS 2 being so far into development that Sakurai could make a moveset for a brand new character from that game
• Spring Man and Co. no longer being the central characters of the series

I swear the speculation leading up to Min Min was some of the worst collective brainrot I've ever seen from the community. Sorry if I sound especially harsh about it, but jesus christ that was bad lmao - I think Byleth just ruined people for a while. At least it's funny to look back on.

I wish the novelty of the ARMS guessing game was more successful, but all it did was drive speculation in circles after a week and breed these insane nonsensical theories while we waited three months for anything substantial.