Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[SharkLord]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Still going over this. Thinking again on if it's vague or an outright deconfirm. It's more vague than just saying "Nintendo hasn't approached us" flat-out. Though, he says that he's waiting for an invitation, not Hayabusa, which I thought he said earlier. That one change is kinda shifting it to a "No." If it was Hayabusa getting the invitation, that would be more neutral; The invitation would come for him in the trailer. But if it's the devs getting the invitation, it seems like Nintendo just hasn't reached out to them.

 

[SWSU]

He's a composer for the series though, not directly tied to the company that makes the product. And was basically an anomaly for the DLC.

I won't jump to conclusions (after I literally just did, haha), but this isn't looking good.

Just saying though. His Quote of "I'm waiting for an invitation" could just be like "I'm waiting the Invitation since he's one of the final two fighters"

I mean I personally don't want Hyabusa in, and I don't think he's going to make it. But this isn't really conclusive

 

[dream1ng]

Still

Sounds to me like he isn't in if they're still waiting for an invite. It could be misdirection, but that shouldn't be the default belief.

 

[Otoad64]

Meaning they have all the same attacks, but are animated differently and have different hurtboxes? I could see something like that if they wanted to add Coco (and it was the proper situation. Likely base game).

I just have a hard time imagining characters that are essentially a triangle and an upside-down triangle having the same skeleton, and a shared moveset but different proportion approach would alleviate that.

yeah pretty much. They would be the exact same except skeleton and hitbox.

I'm not sure that'd be feasible. We've gotten more than one character before, but Pyra and Mythra are very close to being Echo Fighters. They do have more work done on making them stand out from each other since the properties of all (except 1) of their shared moves are different, their attributes were tweaked, and they have three different Special Moves from each other, but the majority of the moveset and animations are still shared and likely took very little effort in doing this. This would be very different from an entire clone character from scratch.

I imagine it would take about as much effort as Young Link, if not a little less, which maybe would be too much effort, but I feel like that makes the most sense

 

[Icedragonadam]

I'm leaning on the side of disconfirmation. The number of characters that had a vague response leaning towards no and ending up in smash anyways is not that high so these are exception not the rule.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Wasn’t there a rumor of P5R coming to Switch lately?

Possibly. I DID see a rumor that it was coming to Xbox, and apparently people believe it purely because it's the kind of thing Atlus would do...

 

[Pillow]

I'm leaning on the side of disconfirmation. The number of characters that had a vague response leaning towards no and ending up in smash anyways is not that high so these are exception not the rule.

The point is there is no rule. The tweet could imply he’s not in, that he’s coming, or nothing at all.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Possibly. I DID see a rumor that it was coming to Xbox, and apparently people believe it purely because it's the kind of thing Atlus would do...

I think that same rumor included Steam, not sure

as long as it isn’t Epic cries in Darkest Dungeon 2 Early Access

 

[chocolatejr9]

I think that same rumor included Steam, not sure

as long as it isn’t Epic cries in Darkest Dungeon 2 Early Access

Stop jinxing everything!

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Doesn't she use rapiers instead of a knife? And a completely different Persona? They could share specials, I guess, but there's no way they could use the same normal attacks.

Well they probably could since Joker's attack are pretty graceful and would work on a fencer, but they'd have to give Violet's attacks more hitboxes since the rapier is longer, and balance accordingly. Since Joker is super good without that range though, Violet would probably have to be balanced too differently to be considered an Echo Fighter so...yeah, it still doesn't work.

EDIT: Well...Maybe they'd be able to do it if she was slower where it counted and her Gun was way worse as a neutral and edge-guard tool.

 

[Golden Icarus]

Why are we all assuming that Yasuda would even have a clue one way or the other? With how secretive Smash characters usually are, I don't see why the Nioh director of all people would know whether or not Hayabusa is in Smash.

 

[dream1ng]

Possibly. I DID see a rumor that it was coming to Xbox, and apparently people believe it purely because it's the kind of thing Atlus would do...

If Persona 5 comes to Xbox I would imagine it's either because Sega intends on releasing it on everything or because Microsoft did some heavy courting.

The point is there is no rule. The tweet could imply he’s not in, that he’s coming, or nothing at all.

Yeah but the point of that is that almost always these statements end up being indicative of the character genuinely not being in the game and taking them at face value is the correct approach. The few times it's different is not a precedent so common that it warrants the first instinct being to not believe them.

 

[Pillow]

If Persona 5 comes to Xbox I would imagine it's either because Sega intends on releasing it on everything or because Microsoft did some heavy courting.


Yeah but the point of that is that almost always these statements end up being indicative of the character genuinely not being in the game and taking them at face value is the correct approach. The few times it's different is not a precedent so common that it warrants the first instinct being to not believe them.

But they’re not usually indicative of a character not being in the game. They’re usually indicative of absolutely nothing.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

The amount of devs that get asked about their character in Smash is higher than the amount of DLC additions in Smash so far, so obviously the ratio tends to skew towards devs telling the truth when they say there are no plans for their character in Smash.

 

[Inue Houji]

Interviews don't mean anything for chances whatsoever. The answer will always be vague or a "No", no matter if they're coming to Smash or not.
The only way an interview would mean something, is if they said "Yes", because then they would be lying or breaking NDA.

I don't particularly care for Hayabusa, but this stuff is irrelevant.

 

[dream1ng]

But they’re not usually indicative of a character not being in the game. They’re usually indicative of absolutely nothing.

If they're asked about Smash and they insinuate the character isn't in the game and the character, then, correctly isn't in the game, that's indicative of them being sincere, and the character genuinely not being in the game. Which isn't absolutely nothing.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Interviews don't mean anything for chances whatsoever. The answer will always be vague or a "No", no matter if they're coming to Smash or not.
The only way an interview would mean something is if they said "Yes", because then they would be lying or breaking NDA.

I disagree in the sense that if there aren't any smoke and mirrors, then "no" means no. This is too vague to mean anything, but Bethezda's "well we approached them but nothing came of it" is a definite "no".

 

[Louie G.]

I think people are just very eager for a shake up in speculation right now. Sorry, but Hayabusa isn’t going away that easily lmao.

Toward his supporters who take this as a hit though, I think it’s smart to temper expectations one way or another. It’s always good to be cautious when it pertains to your personal wishes.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

I think people are just very eager for a shake up in speculation right now. Sorry, but Hayabusa isn’t going away that easily lmao.

Watch as next week we get an spirit event for Ninja Gaiden or something.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Watch as next week we get an spirit event for Ninja Gaiden or something.

When does that remake trilogy come out?

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

I think we could all use a break, so let's talk XCOM. It's 100% not happening, but I recently got XCOM 2 for 70% off and I think it would be neat.

Mainly, I think it would be funny if there were several soldier designs and each time you lose a stock, the soldier in question changes to a different one: Referencing the permadeath in the series. It would be too much work, but I'd love it.

If it happened, I could see the fighter doing some interesting stuff, like an overwatch mechanic of some kind (ranged counter? idk) or creating cover to act as an in-between as you try to zone people out.

I haven't played 2 yet, so I couldn't tell you what specifically could be pulled from that game. I think I've read that some soldiers have knives, though, so that's something.

 

[dream1ng]

Interviews don't mean anything for chances whatsoever. The answer will always be vague or a "No", no matter if they're coming to Smash or not.
The only way an interview would mean something, is if they said "Yes", because then they would be lying or breaking NDA.

I don't particularly care for Hayabusa, but this stuff is irrelevant.

This is totally off base. On the rare occasion the response conflicts with the outcome, which has happened maybe twice, we ought to ignore that every other time the statement has been genuinely indicative of the character's absence?

That's ridiculous, because it lends the rare exception so much weight as to invalidate the common truth of the outcome, which is sincerity. It's not a 100% deconfirmation, because of those exceptional times, but to say it means nothing is to ignore the eventual validity of the vast majority of the statements which have predated this one.

To have this be the default belief means the assumption from which you start is that the character is in, and therefore the person is subject to an NDA. Considering most characters don't get in, you're again putting more credence on the more unlikely scenario instead of the standard one.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I think people are just very eager for a shake up in speculation right now.

That or they just want something to talk about on the "who's it gonna be?" side of speculation since the last notable thing to talk about was just before Steve.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

In an unexpected twist, the trailer for the next fighter will have Hayabusa just missing his invite due to Joe Mushashi’s dog Yamato stealing it for him.

 

[Guynamednelson]

It's 100% not happening

This is XCOM we're talking about so that percentage means XCOM is a lock

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I like how some people said they hate how interviewers ask this despite nobody being able to say yes for legal reasons yet the fact people get this worked up screaming about deconfirmations every time this happens even if it isn't about Smash as seen with Kiryu. Kinda proves why it happens.


Also I randomly decided to rewatch the Ace Attorney anime as I hear the dub's excellent and honestly, after a few episodes, I'd really love them to get Eric Vale for Nick if he gets to be playable, Sam Riegel never did it for me and although Ben Judd's the most iconic one, but he's not an actor and he's uh. A bad person.


Also sidenote the dub of the AA anime is trash they had Maya say she wants ramen and not hamburgers, Funimation ****ed up big time

 

[Inue Houji]

I disagree in the sense that if there aren't any smoke and mirrors, then "no" means no. This is too vague to mean anything, but Bethezda's "well we approached them but nothing came of it" is a definite "no".

I don't even want Bethesda characters, yet I must object. It means nothing.
Bethesda characters aren't more or less likely because of the interview, it might as well have not even happened.
If their character is in Smash, the interviewee is aware the question might come up, and already has a prepared answer.

This is totally off base. On the rare occasion the response conflicts with the outcome, which has happened maybe twice, we ought to ignore that every other time the statement has been genuinely indicative of the character's absence?

That isn't how it works.
You would get the same answer no matter what company you ask: "not yes".
It doesn't mean they're more likely, it doesn't mean they're less likely. It's inconsequential either way.

 

[dream1ng]

I think people are just very eager for a shake up in speculation right now. Sorry, but Hayabusa isn’t going away that easily lmao.

2B, Doom Slayer, Ryza, Tracer, etc. crumpled pretty quickly after their respective statements.

We'll see how this plays out.

 

[Pillow]

This is totally off base. On the rare occasion the response conflicts with the outcome, which has happened maybe twice, we ought to ignore that every other time the statement has been genuinely indicative of the character's absence?

That's ridiculous, because it lends the rare exception so much weight as to invalidate the common truth of the outcome, which is sincerity. It's not a 100% deconfirmation, because of those exceptional times, but to say it means nothing is to ignore the eventual validity of the vast majority of the statements which have predated this one.

To have this be the default belief means the assumption from which you start is that the character is in, and therefore the person is subject to an NDA. Considering most characters don't get in, you're again putting more credence on the more unlikely scenario instead of the standard one.

You’re misunderstanding. In all scenarios the interviewees either say no or give a vague answer, because if a character was actually slated for Smash there’s no way they could say “yeah they’re in.” Most of the time the character actually doesn’t end up in, because there’s only room for so many characters in Smash, but the actual interview itself means nothing.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Also sidenote the dub of the AA anime is trash they had Maya say she wants ramen and not hamburgers, Funimation ****ed up big time

lol did they do it to avoid "mm these hamburgers are great!" slurps noodles?

I don't even want Bethesda characters, yet I must object. It means nothing.
Bethesda characters aren't more or less likely because of the interview, it might as well have not even happened.
If their character is in Smash, the interviewee is aware the question might come up, and already has a prepared answer.

And when said answer is the truth, it doesn't at all have to be vague, so if it isn't, then it can be trusted.

 

[Brother AJ]

They haven’t included echoes in dlc and I don’t think they’ll start now. Best bet is either a Mii or on Crash’s spirit board. Unless for the next Smash/Ult DX she’s either an AT, or even semi-clone (still don’t see her as a full echo and DEFINITELY not an alternate costume a la Alph)

I just don't think it's feasible to imagine Coco as an alternate costume for Crash. Not only is her skeleton entirely different, but she's a very distinct character from Crash. Relative to Crash's unhinged demeanor, Coco is cute and more collected. Byleth and Inkling have minor animation differences, but nothing that completely changes the personality of the character. That's what echo fighters like Daisy or Dark Samus are for (and they're also closer in size and skeleton to their counterpart).

Coco could work as an echo fighter, I suppose, even though her body type is still quite different (if Isabelle couldn't be an echo fighter, could Coco?). But for now there's no precedent for additional echo fighters as DLC, so if Crash does come I definitely wouldn't count on Coco coming alongside him. And honestly I think it's better that way, lumping her in as an alt for Crash would require a lot of her identity to be stripped away and it would totally butcher her.

Yea, I probably should've specified that I don't think Coco would work as an alt in my initial post. I don't like the idea either.

Her best bet is probably to be an echo fighter only in name released along side Crash. Her different body type means she couldn't be a traditional echo fighter, but she could still be called one if Ken is any indication. She would just have a different skeleton instead of different moves.

No, there hasn't been any other DLC characters that received echo fighters, but this may be the first character where it made the most sense to make one. What other characters can be swapped between each other so freely and yet would be different enough where they couldn't be a palette swap?

Making this pseudo-echo would obviously take up more development time than usual, but my only hope is that so much more than usual had to go into characters like Steve and Pythra too.

They may not be motivated to do this of course since there are plenty of people that wouldn't bat an eyelid at Coco not making it unfortunately...

I wouldn't be too bummed out but I don't see why they couldn't make Coco into a alternate costume when you've got inkling and Byleth to go on. The games even prove it's possible.

As others have said, the main problem with this is that Coco and Crash have different personalities, so a palette swap really doesn't make sense for them.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

lol did they do it to avoid "mm these hamburgers are great!" slurps noodles?

Probably but it's such an iconic part of the series, god bless Janet Hsu, a legend of localization

 

[Pillow]

Yea, I probably should've specified that I don't think Coco would work as an alt in my initial post. I don't like the idea either.

Her best bet is probably to be an echo fighter only in name released along side Crash. Her different body type means she couldn't be a traditional echo fighter, but she could still be called one if Ken is any indication. She would just have a different skeleton instead of different moves.

No, there hasn't been any other DLC characters that received echo fighters, but this may be the first character where it made the most sense to make one. What other characters can be swapped between each other so freely and yet would be different enough where they couldn't be a palette swap?

Making this pseudo-echo would obviously take up more development time than usual, but my only hope is that so much more than usual had to go into characters like Steve and Pythra too.

They may not be motivated to do this of course since there are plenty of people that wouldn't bat an eyelid at Coco not making it unfortunately...


As others have said, the main problem with this is that Coco and Crash have different personalities, so a palette swap really doesn't make sense for them.

Personalities isn’t much of an issue. The actual issue is they have very different body shapes....

 

[True Blue Warrior]

When does that remake trilogy come out?

June 10.

 

[dream1ng]

You’re misunderstanding. In all scenarios the interviewees either say no or give a vague answer, because if a character was actually slated for Smash there’s no way they could say “yeah they’re in.” Most of the time the character actually doesn’t end up in, because there’s only room for so many characters in Smash, but the actual interview itself means nothing.

You know they all have the option to say "I'd love that" or "that would be nice to see" instead of saying no, right? Like the SNK guy did.

Interviews meaning nothing exist in a reality where yes and no are the only possible answers.

 

[Louie G.]

Man this stuff always brings out the worst most redundant speculation. I think it's ridiculous for any of us to pretend we know exactly what these vague PR statements mean - you can interpret it however you like, but arguing about what these short statements mean is just boring. I personally believe "waiting for an invitation" is far too vague to gather any specific meaning from. To me it just sounds like a playful nonanswer to a Smash-related question.

2B, Doom Slayer, Ryza, Tracer, etc. crumpled pretty quickly after their respective statements.

We'll see how this plays out.

I don't particularly remember 2B being disconfirmed, but as for Doom Slayer he's really the only one of these that had a massive role in speculation. And funny enough, well after a very very clear and firm disconfirmation that went into far more detail than any other character's, his support has NOT crumpled and people still humor the idea. We didn't escape people speculating about Cacomallow for good until last December.

Hell, look back on the Top 10 list that was posted on the home page not that long ago and Doom Slayer was an honorable mention. I don't understand it, but yeah he hasn't exactly faded out. If anything he's an example of how nobody will ever agree on what these PR statements mean. It's easier to accept a character like Ryza is out of the picture since she was only briefly taken seriously, or Tracer because... let's be honest, people just wanted her out of the picture.

 

[ZephyrZ]

I don't think Yasuda is being deliberately vague, as if he's trying to avoid breaking an NDA without lying about it.

He's just saying he'd like an invitation from Nintendo to let Hayabusa join Smash. It's not really all that deep.

 

[Inue Houji]

You know they all have the option to say "I'd love that" or "that would be nice to see" instead of saying no, right?

That is the same as a vague answer/non-answer.
They have the option of saying anything, it doesn't mean anything no matter what they answer though.

 

[dream1ng]

I don't particularly remember 2B being disconfirmed, but as for Doom Slayer he's really the only one of these that had a massive role in speculation. And funny enough, well after a very very clear and firm disconfirmation that went into far more detail than any other character's, his support has NOT crumpled and people still humor the idea.

Hell, look back on the Top 10 list that was posted on the home page not that long ago and Doom Slayer was an honorable mention. I don't understand it, but yeah he hasn't exactly faded out.

From where it used to be? It absolutely has. Go back and look at 2019 discourse.

All four of those characters have indelibly sunk in terms of attention and discussion from where they used to reside. And in the case of 2B and Doom Slayer, it happened post their statements, not later with content from their companies showing up. People around here used to think the KT rep could go either between Ryu or Ryza. Go back and check. Can't say that's how people look at it now, is it?

I'm not saying a character like Tracer used to be among the most discussed characters, I'm only comparing their discussion before the statement to after it.

And 2B's statement was how Sakurai and Yoko Taro didn't meet until well after the FP2 characters would've been chosen, which people extrapolated to mean it was unlikely she made the cut.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

As others have said, the main problem with this is that Coco and Crash have different personalities, so a palette swap really doesn't make sense for them.

Different personalities, yet they do the exact same moves as each other so I'm not exactly seeing the issue.