Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[Brother AJ]

Would anyone else be sad if Coco doesn't make it along with Crash assuming he's coming at all? I feel like she deserves it at this point, and it'd just be a bummer if she gets the spirit treatment.

 

[Otoad64]

Would anyone else be sad if Coco doesn't make it along with Crash assuming he's coming at all? I feel like she deserves it at this point, and it'd just be a bummer if she gets the spirit treatment.

I don't think Coco would work very well as a skin.

 

[Brother AJ]

I don't think Coco would work very well as a skin.

Yea I'm hoping for a free echo fighter to come along with Crash, but I know it's a long shot. Since she's a fully playable alternative to Crash it just sucks that she'll probably get sidelined.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Would anyone else be sad if Coco doesn't make it along with Crash assuming he's coming at all? I feel like she deserves it at this point, and it'd just be a bummer if she gets the spirit treatment.

I've yet to touch Crash Bandicoot beyond clearing 1 stage over half my life ago, but Activision's been very good at putting Coco and Crash on equal terms since the remakes so yeah it'd be a bummer

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Would anyone else be sad if Coco doesn't make it along with Crash assuming he's coming at all? I feel like she deserves it at this point, and it'd just be a bummer if she gets the spirit treatment.

They haven’t included echoes in dlc and I don’t think they’ll start now. Best bet is either a Mii or on Crash’s spirit board. Unless for the next Smash/Ult DX she’s either an AT, or even semi-clone (still don’t see her as a full echo and DEFINITELY not an alternate costume a la Alph)

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Given we're only two fighters left away from Ultimate coming to an end. I wouldn't bet on any Echos coming with any challenger pack.

 

[Golden Icarus]

I've given a lot of thought toward those other companies, like ArcSys in particular, but the more I've thought about them the less I've been convinced of any beyond Koei Tecmo. I think SNK is rightfully what got people thinking outside the box, and I'm certainly in favor of giving characters like Sol or Adol the attention and respect they deserve, but I dunno there's a bit of a disconnect for me here for one reason or another.

Give or take Hayabusa, I'm not really even convinced we're in the position to get a new company on board. FP2 so far has consisted of not just companies with playable characters, but companies that already got DLC last time. I always try to acknowledge that these observations and patterns are always susceptible to be broken, but I think it's a really strong possibility that it stays this way all the way up until the end. It's just interesting that it's played out this way thus far, when FP1 had two brand new companies by this point in the pass (and Atlus, depending on how you want to see that). The focus seems to be a bit less on expanding.

On my end I'm expecting a SEGA character, and then it could either be Hayabusa or another Nintendo character we're all sleeping on when assuming that it's gotta be a modern and/or promo character or something. With Master Chief as a variable somewhere in there, I dunno.

Yeah, I've been somewhat doubting brand new companies as well. In a lot of ways, it almost makes more sense that we would get multiple characters from one company. Surely that would make negotiations a lot easier. And with characters like Master Chief for Microsoft, and Lara, Crono, 2B, and Sora for Square...I think it's totally possible we could see some "double dips" by the end of this pass. It would be pretty funny if Microsoft, Square, and Nintendo were literally the only companies contacted for characters in FP2.

That said, I still feel fine about Hayabusa. That interview says nothing one way or the other, and Koei Tecmo still really stands out in the grand scheme of things. Also Crash is Crash and that always helps his chances.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Given we're only two fighters left away from Ultimate coming to an end. I wouldn't bet on any Echos coming with any challenger pack.

The only way I could see an echo is if they’re bundled with their base, like KOS-MOS with a T-elos echo, both of which are unlikely after Pythra. Echoes felt more like base material imo

 

[GoodGrief741]

Every time someone mentions new companies and snubs Level-5 a puzzle dies

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

It will very likely be something that Sakurai would consider, but it likely won't be feasible for them to do it since portraying different personalities is way harder when hitboxes are tied to animations, and there can't be any gameplay differences for alternate costumes.

An Echo Fighter would be feasible but they'd have to admit that Echo Fighters are just differently animated Alternate Costumes for the most part so they're not going to do that.

 

[Louie G.]

Intuitively, where do I think Nintendo would place Hayabusa?

I think it's hard to place from this perspective, we've certainly had Mii Costumes that could fit right in with the playable characters and playable characters who, recontextualized, I'm sure would have worked just fine as costumes. Don't think anyone would have thought twice about Joker or Terry as Mii Costumes, for example. Assassin's Creed is huge and outranks most of the playable franchises, same with Monster Hunter. So on and so forth.

I think Hayabusa is certainly right there between Simon as a retro gaming icon (he's a little bit smaller) and Terry as the mascot of a smaller but prestigious company (he's a little bit bigger). I also think he could easily be a Mii Swordfighter alongside someone like Travis, although I do think Ninja Gaiden has more notoriety than No More Heroes, which is more of an underground cult classic compared to Ninja Gaiden which has some pretty strong brand recognition.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Yeah, I've been somewhat doubting brand new companies as well. In a lot of ways, it almost makes more sense that we would get multiple characters from one company. Surely that would make negotiations a lot easier. And with characters like Master Chief for Microsoft, and Lara, Crono, 2B, and Sora for Square...I think it's totally possible we could see some "double dips" by the end of this pass. It would be pretty funny if Microsoft, Square, and Nintendo were literally the only companies contacted for characters in FP2.

That said, I still feel fine about Hayabusa. That interview says nothing one way or the other, and Koei Tecmo still really stands out in the grand scheme of things. Also Crash is Crash and that always helps his chances.

Cries in Neku

Every time someone mentions new companies and snubs Level-5 a puzzle dies

to be fair... their current company situation isn’t good to say the least

 

[Golden Icarus]

Cries in Neku

I knew I was forgetting someone! Please forgive me.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

Would anyone else be sad if Coco doesn't make it along with Crash assuming he's coming at all? I feel like she deserves it at this point, and it'd just be a bummer if she gets the spirit treatment.

I wouldn't be too bummed out but I don't see why they couldn't make Coco into a alternate costume when you've got inkling and Byleth to go on. The games even prove it's possible.

 

[Sigran101]

Ok but what if our next FE (sorta) rep was Itsuki Aoi

only one TMS spirit in base game (Tsubasa), no music, no stage

...like that’ll ever happen.

unless?

I would unironicly love that. The whole lightning swordsman thing really does it for me. Plus it would be hilarious to technically have Chrom on the roster 3 times.

 

[Otoad64]

I wouldn't be too bummed out but I don't see why they couldn't make Coco into a alternate costume when you've got inkling and Byleth to go on. The games even prove it's possible.

in a platformer hitboxes matter much less

 

[chocolatejr9]

Every time someone mentions new companies and snubs Level-5 a puzzle dies

Or a red cat gets hit by a car.

 

[Golden Icarus]

I think that Coco's best bet is a "bonus echo." We've seen some crazy alternate costumes, but never with such distinct personalities and proportions.

 

[Louie G.]

Would anyone else be sad if Coco doesn't make it along with Crash assuming he's coming at all? I feel like she deserves it at this point, and it'd just be a bummer if she gets the spirit treatment.

I just don't think it's feasible to imagine Coco as an alternate costume for Crash. Not only is her skeleton entirely different, but she's a very distinct character from Crash. Relative to Crash's unhinged demeanor, Coco is cute and more collected. Byleth and Inkling have minor animation differences, but nothing that completely changes the personality of the character. That's what echo fighters like Daisy or Dark Samus are for (and they're also closer in size and skeleton to their counterpart).

Coco could work as an echo fighter, I suppose, even though her body type is still quite different (if Isabelle couldn't be an echo fighter, could Coco?). But for now there's no precedent for additional echo fighters as DLC, so if Crash does come I definitely wouldn't count on Coco coming alongside him. And honestly I think it's better that way, lumping her in as an alt for Crash would require a lot of her identity to be stripped away and it would totally butcher her.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

in a platformer hitboxes matter much less

Just give them the same hitboxes. People complain about Mewtwo's tail hitbox and Nintendo doesn't do anything about that.

 

[Sigran101]

Yea I'm hoping for a free echo fighter to come along with Crash, but I know it's a long shot. Since she's a fully playable alternative to Crash it just sucks that she'll probably get sidelined.

If anything I would think she could be a bonus echo post pass, maybe along with Violet for Joker and some first parties or something.

I just don't think it's feasible to imagine Coco as an alternate costume for Crash. Not only is her skeleton entirely different, but she's a very distinct character from Crash. Relative to Crash's unhinged demeanor, Coco is cute and more collected. Byleth and Inkling have minor animation differences, but nothing that completely changes the personality of the character. That's what echo fighters like Daisy or Dark Samus are for (and they're also closer in size and skeleton to their counterpart).

Coco could work as an echo fighter, I suppose, even though her body type is still quite different (if Isabelle couldn't be an echo fighter, could Coco?). But for now there's no precedent for additional echo fighters as DLC, so if Crash does come I definitely wouldn't count on Coco coming alongside him.

This. Same reason the whole "Hero situation" with the arms rep was never going to happen. An alt costume can only be so different.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

If anything I would think she could be a bonus echo post pass, maybe along with Violet for Joker and some first parties or something.

This. Same reason the whole "Hero situation" with the arms rep was never going to happen. An alt costume can only be so different.

Now that you mention Violet

what the hell was the “Jane” in Joker’s string even supposed to be???

 

[GoodGrief741]

to be fair... their current company situation isn’t good to say the least

To be fair none of that matters because the fighters were chosen years ago

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Considering Isabelle wasn’t seen as a viable Echo Fighter due to her proportions, a semi-clone Coco seems more likely than being an Echo Fighter. She has an actual neck and longer legs.

 

[chocolatejr9]

To be fair none of that matters because the fighters were chosen years ago

To be fair nobody takes Yo-kai Watch seriously here.

 

[AreJay25]

To be fair nobody takes Yo-kai Watch seriously here.

I don't think that's the Level-5 series people were particularly betting on.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I wouldn't be too bummed out but I don't see why they couldn't make Coco into a alternate costume when you've got inkling and Byleth to go on. The games even prove it's possible.

It's a bit different here. The male and female versions of Inkling and Byleth don't animate that differently from each other. For the Inklings, the male one just doesn't wiggle his hips as much in his idle, which wouldn't need to affect hitbox placement, and similarly, Byleth's taunts are both more or less the same motion with male Byleth holding his sword out, and female Byleth placing it behind her, while both of them have their arm resting by their side. This doesn't affect hitbox placement either.

Crash and Coco work in the N'Sane Trilogy because the hitbox in that game is likely just a big rectangular prism and they can animate however they want within it; The hitbox doesn't need to adhere to the models because hit detection is just "are the player and dangerous thing occupying the same space". For Super Smash Bros., they would need to portray two very different personalities using the same techniques as Byleth does. I.E., using about the same motions, otherwise the hitboxes on one or both of the skins becomes deceptive in a way that feels unfair. EDIT: Ex. They get hit when they visibly shouldn't have, and/or attacks pass through them when they visibly hit.

Considering Isabelle wasn’t seen as a viable Echo Fighter due to her proportions, a semi-clone Coco seems more likely than being an Echo Fighter. She has an actual neck and longer legs.

Now that you mention it, yeah, they wouldn't be able to share a skeleton (if for no other reason than the fact that Crash's arms are higher up on his body), and thus would have to be animated separately, which means Coco can't even be an Echo Fighter because too much would have to be done from scratch.

 

[Otoad64]

Considering Isabelle wasn’t seen as a viable Echo Fighter due to her proportions, a semi-clone Coco seems more likely than being an Echo Fighter. She has an actual neck and longer legs.

I saw a Crash moveset video where they said they should just.. lie and say she's an Echo anyway. And honestly that sounds like the best option

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Every time someone mentions new companies and snubs Level-5 a puzzle dies

Good thing we have two Pika-rats left.

 

[Sigran101]

Now that you mention Violet

what the hell was the “Jane” in Joker’s string even supposed to be???

I think it was supposed to be Violet actually. It was a version of Joker called "Jane" instead of "Jack" that had ponytail physics. Clearly Violet was scrapped content of some sort. That's why I think she's first in line if we get bonus echoes.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

I think it was supposed to be Violet actually. It was a version of Joker called "Jane" instead of "Jack" that had ponytail physics. Clearly Violet was scrapped content of some sort. That's why I think she's first in line if we get bonus echoes.

Wasn’t there a rumor of P5R coming to Switch lately?

 

[PacificFun]

I can't believe Hayabusa was basically decomfirmed, just like that.

https://twitter.com/Nibellion/status/1374636453452464130?s=19

Maybe I'm jumping to conclusions too quickly but I don't know. They probably wouldn't say anything if he was in.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I saw a Crash moveset video where they said they should just.. lie and say she's an Echo anyway. And honestly that sounds like the best option

I'm not sure that'd be feasible. We've gotten more than one character before, but Pyra and Mythra are very close to being Echo Fighters. They do have more work done on making them stand out from each other since the properties of all (except 1) of their shared moves are different, their attributes were tweaked, and they have three different Special Moves from each other, but the majority of the moveset and animations are still shared and likely took very little effort in doing this. This would be very different from an entire clone character from scratch.

 

[SWSU]

I can't believe Hayabusa was basically decomfirmed, just like that.

https://twitter.com/Nibellion/status/1374636453452464130?s=19

Maybe I'm jumping to conclusions too quickly but I don't know. They probably wouldn't say anything if he was in.

I mean, we have had Game Studio People make deconfirming statements like this one.... For Characters that made it in. (Like Banjo for example).

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

I saw a Crash moveset video where they said they should just.. lie and say she's an Echo anyway. And honestly that sounds like the best option

Meaning they have all the same attacks, but are animated differently and have different hurtboxes? I could see something like that if they wanted to add Coco (and it was the proper situation. Likely base game).

I just have a hard time imagining characters that are essentially a triangle and an upside-down triangle having the same skeleton, and a shared moveset but different proportion approach would alleviate that.

 

[PacificFun]

I mean, we have had Game Studio People make deconfirming statements like this one.... For Characters that made it in. (Like Banjo for example).

He's a composer for the series though, not directly tied to the company that makes the product. And was basically an anomaly for the DLC.

I won't jump to conclusions (after I literally just did, haha), but this isn't looking good.

 

[ahemtoday]

I think it was supposed to be Violet actually. It was a version of Joker called "Jane" instead of "Jack" that had ponytail physics. Clearly Violet was scrapped content of some sort. That's why I think she's first in line if we get bonus echoes.

Doesn't she use rapiers instead of a knife? And a completely different Persona? They could share specials, I guess, but there's no way they could use the same normal attacks.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

I can't believe Hayabusa was basically decomfirmed, just like that.

https://twitter.com/Nibellion/status/1374636453452464130?s=19

Maybe I'm jumping to conclusions too quickly but I don't know. They probably wouldn't say anything if he was in.

Yep! That's right! Ryu Hayabusa has been defeated by a tweet! He died as he lived, being tormented by birds.

 

[dream1ng]

Coco being an alt for Crash is such an unrealistic suggestion I'm surprised it surfaces as often as it does.

 

[Pillow]

Yeah, I've been somewhat doubting brand new companies as well. In a lot of ways, it almost makes more sense that we would get multiple characters from one company. Surely that would make negotiations a lot easier. And with characters like Master Chief for Microsoft, and Lara, Crono, 2B, and Sora for Square...I think it's totally possible we could see some "double dips" by the end of this pass. It would be pretty funny if Microsoft, Square, and Nintendo were literally the only companies contacted for characters in FP2.

That said, I still feel fine about Hayabusa. That interview says nothing one way or the other, and Koei Tecmo still really stands out in the grand scheme of things. Also Crash is Crash and that always helps his chances.

I’d be very happy with Master Chief and 2B/Lara closing out the pass. Honestly Chief is one of the few picks that would feel actually satisfying to end Ultimate DLC on.