Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I could see another 1st Party coming. But I see two more 3rd parties as fairly likely too.

That said, I do like how the characters being "relevant to Nintendo" isn't all that often that important. It was with Banjo & Kazooie, as it gave them Smash requests. It didn't do anything for licensing in itself, since it was Minecraft that led to that.

Otherwise, you got cases where they were already notable characters on their own. Cloud didn't even have his own game on Nintendo, the specific one that Smash ties him to, which shows how much relevancy matters. Now, SE being more buddy buddy with Nintendo is a lot more important. Sure, sadly we still pretty much only got FFVII as the series in Smash(with a loose cameo of two characters not from VII alone. The Chocobo Costume and Ifrit on the stage specifically), but it's basically its own sub-series anyway, having spin-offs, etc., so it's not that big of a deal. I do wish we got more music before Sephiroth, who at least added some much needed FFVII content. He's interesting cause he was added after we got FFVII on the Switch. On the other hand, we already had Cloud, so even if we didn't get the Switch port, he would've still been an easy choice alone. The port may have mattered, if only cause it helped determine which FF character to choose. It also led to further making it clear it's FFVII in Smash, not FF in general(which imo, is not a good thing), but eh.

We've got other oddball franchises like Castlevania who used just some notable characters, despite having no core games recently(just a Pachinko game and a very notable TV show). Terry did have games ported recently, or in general was in(King of Fighters), so that may have made him a good business decision. Hero having Luminary as the face was an obvious push for an updated port. While the rest were notable Heroes throughout Dragon Quest history. If I remember right, Solo was from a game with some unique new mechanics. I think he's from V, but I forgot what V did. Was it that one that started the Monster Recruiting? If so, that makes Slime being in the taunts(and with Luminary's Smash render on the banner) actually a case of fridge brilliance when both factors are combined.

Min Min is the most stand out anyway. No games of recent, and just a request to Nintendo by the director. Simple. It helps she has a really cool mechanic unused in Smash, but also gave Nintendo an excuse to make ARMS hit the market again. Hence the "guess the ARMS character" and demo.

It makes me wonder just what the next two will be, really. With few actually standing out as "very special circumstances", the choices just get more interesting. Cause honestly, only Min Min feels like a special situation to me. The rest(DLC) at least had recent games or major Smash requests to make them easy picks.

 

[SpecterFlower]

let's play a fun game that can actually have a winner (in the next 7 years)

here's the third party percentage in each smash game

SSB64-0%
SSBM-0%
SSBB-5.13%
SSB4-3.48%
SSBU-20% (so far)

what doe everyone think the next smash games 3rd party percentage will be? this is the first time Nintendo went with "gaming all stars" instead of "Nintendo all stars" and even if some company's were difficult to work with in the beginning the sales of smash ultimate seems to have brought most companies on board to the point where smash get's special privilege's and discount's.

im going to say this trend continues and the next game will at launch have a...

SSB6-45%

percentage. of 3rd party's to first party's.

anyway goodnight! im barely awake so I think i'll just go to sleep now.

 

[DarthEnderX]

one Ganon is Ganon, the other Ganon is Ganondorf

They're literally both Ganon. And they're ALL the same freakin' person.

You have seen OoT Ganon compared to LttP Ganon right? They are nowhere near the same thing.

Are they both pig demons that were originally Ganondorf? Yes? I guess they're the same then!

And they're not even separate reincarnations! LttP Ganon is LITERALLY the same Ganondorf from OoT!! Read your goddamn Historia people!

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

View attachment 306249
They're literally both Ganon. And they're ALL the same freakin' person.

Are they both pig demons that were originally Ganondorf? Yes? I guess they're the same then!

And they're not even separate reincarnations! LttP Ganon is LITERALLY the same Ganondorf from OoT!! Read your goddamn Historia people!

My guy. We are well aware they are the same person. That doesn’t stop the fact they have entirely different designs.
Not to mention OoT Ganon was in a solid 1 game where Ganondorf is already a character. Ganon LttP is the standard Ganon design seen in alllllll the Top Down Zeldas. Wanting OoT Ganon is hardly the same as wanting LttP Ganon.

 

[cashregister9]

The last 2 characters seem pretty hard to bet on, the whole pass has turned out like that tbh.

The safe picks don't seem that safe but the really obscure picks also seem unlikely.

The characters will still come and will probably be interesting at the very least. I'm ready to enjoy the ride.

I know this is said literally every time a new character is released, So I know damn well I'm not breaking any new ground but it keeps on being true

 

[Paraster]

let's play a fun game that can actually have a winner (in the next 7 years)

here's the third party percentage in each smash game

SSB64-0%
SSBM-0%
SSBB-5.13%
SSB4-3.48%
SSBU-20% (so far)

what doe everyone think the next smash games 3rd party percentage will be? this is the first time Nintendo went with "gaming all stars" instead of "Nintendo all stars" and even if some company's were difficult to work with in the beginning the sales of smash ultimate seems to have brought most companies on board to the point where smash get's special privilege's and discount's.

im going to say this trend continues and the next game will at launch have a...

SSB6-45%

percentage. of 3rd party's to first party's.

anyway goodnight! im barely awake so I think i'll just go to sleep now.

Honestly, I can't see them going above 25%, and the only reason I consider that not a stretch itself is that we're currently just 5% off from that.
I think the jump in third-parties is another symptom of Ultimate being "ultimate" or "special"; they're going for characters that normally wouldn't be considered to make this game more of a huge event.

 

[BlondeLombax]

<->

Spoiler: Forum weapon come from video with bad words (& much, much more naughty stuff)

 

[DarthEnderX]

My guy. We are well aware they are the same person. That doesn’t stop the fact they have entirely different designs.

Yeah, and I'm saying, asking for a redesign of a character that is already in the game TWICE to take another Fighter slot is a **** to everyone who wants a character that's, ya know, NOT already in the game.

I'd be giving just as much **** to someone asking for a fourth Link.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

OOT Ganon is not playable either way, so it doesn't really make a difference. Ganondorf is playable and Ganon is not. It's as simple as that. There's zero semantics that change the fact the pig/bulldog character is not playable in Smash, which revels in different forms being important too.

They're still different characters either way, despite being the same person. The argument doesn't even work since Melee, which had Mario/Dr. Mario and Link/Young Link, who are the literal same person. Wait, they did that again with Samus and Zero Suit Samus, who aren't a clone situation either.

So it's pointless to try and pretend the pig/bulldog character already is "playable" when it's just a load of bull at this point. No, he's not. Does that mean he should be? That's entirely subjective and people can be happy with only one of his notable forms being playable and the other one being a boss(albeit, a completely different take on the boss than is the most iconic version, but still a non-playable boss).

For an easy example, say somebody legitimately wanted Metal Mario and Giant Donkey Kong playable in Smash. What's that... the character exists in another form? No, that doesn't count. Melee then fixes that by making it an option(well, less so for Metal to be fair) to use them in some way. This actually counts as them playable.

This is something that's simple in Smash. Every playable character is a separate file, and every different form is a different playable character. Smash has and always will work this way. The character is not in Smash with the way a person wants it just cause another form exists. It's never going to get less simple than that.

Likewise, say OOT Ganon somehow was playable. This isn't a replacement for ALTTP Ganon, unless OOT Ganon actually has the same moves and Trident among the moveset. So he'd have to be a combination of both to actually satisfy them. If it's not that, it doesn't count for what they want. I'm not sure why people can't see how simple this is. This is exactly the same situation as people wanting Ganondorf to be more about magical projectiles instead of using his magical might(which... isn't entirely off from his canon self, but there's no question he's not that accurate even to this day). Mage Ganondorf is a popular addition because he does what they wanted him to do. And even if say, that was added to Smash, regular Ganondorf would still be there anyway(as the people behind the Mage Ganondorf hack did no less) because it's a popular playable version. So what does that mean? The moveset is important to the character, not "it's this person" alone. Now to tie into what I said a bit earlier, anybody following the Super Mario series may know that Metal Mario is now his own person. So if somebody wanted him playable(it wouldn't work without removing the Metal Box item, imo, but eh), the Metal Box does not "count" for what they mean. They want the actual character who speaks differently(backwards speak, akin to Yoda) and his own cocky personality.

I'll note I don't think I can make the point more simple. It's absolutely fine if people don't want a person in Smash twice and all, but it's not fine to be completely disrespectful to others who actually want a separate character who is the same person. The arguments are ultimately very very poor and miss the entire point. Especially when Smash does not have some silly rule that the same person cannot be in Smash twice. That's not just incorrect, but it's clearly not important to the series' development.

<->

Dr. Mario still can't even hit Mario Kart, oddly enough. And he's easy too. On the other hand, Dr. Mario has a Metal form, but there's also a separate Metal Mario who can use a Doctor's Outfit(as I noted above with Metal Mario his own separate person). My headcanon is that the Dr. Metal Mario in Dr. Mario World is the actual Metal Mario, and not regular Mario. Though we have had Metal Dr. Mario separately in Smash and in Dr. Mario 64. Crazy how power-ups can be, no? XD[/spoiler]

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

Yeah, and I'm saying, asking for a redesign of a character that is already in the game TWICE to take another Fighter slot is a **** to everyone who wants a character that's, ya know, NOT already in the game.

I'd be giving just as much **** to someone asking for a fourth Link.

OoT Ganon isn’t seen outside WoL and Zelda characters boss modes. And Ganondorf is basically fanfiction with his current moveset.
At least LttP Ganon has a different design. Link #4 would have the same look and likely similar moveset to our other 3.
Link is represented fine. Ganon/Ganondorf isn’t.

 

[DarthEnderX]

which revels in different forms being important too.

Yeah, except, when that form is a big monster, it's usually a Boss. Like, ya know, Gigabowser, Marx's final form, BOTH of Dracula's forms, and of course, pig demon Ganon.

The argument doesn't even work since Melee, which had Mario/Dr. Mario and Link/Young Link, who are the literal same person.

It works because those were all freaking clones. Meaning their inclusion wasn't costing another character a spot.

If it's not that, it doesn't count for what they want. I'm not sure why people can't see how simple this is.

I understand what they WANT. But what they WANT is another version of a character that's already in the game TWICE. And that is just straight up selfish. Period.

Yes, it's not what they want. That's the point. Because what they want is something nobody should be getting.

And Ganondorf is basically fanfiction with his current moveset.

And I 100% support fixing that by replacing Falcondorf with a unique Ganondorf.

NOT by keeping bull**** Falcondorf and adding another Ganon on the side.

Link is represented fine. Ganon/Ganondorf isn’t.

Ganon is represented perfectly. Ganondorf isn't.

 

[BlondeLombax]

Moans of increasing anxiety

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

OoT Ganon isn’t seen outside WoL and Zelda characters boss modes. And Ganondorf is basically fanfiction with his current moveset.
At least LttP Ganon has a different design. Link #4 would have the same look and likely similar moveset to our other 3.
Link is represented fine. Ganon/Ganondorf isn’t.

Worth noting that's not that true about Ganondorf. He does both punch and kick in canon these days. The Flame Choke is another of his moves, and his Forward Aerial is from the official artwork. Warlock Punch is pretty much his Earthquake Punch(but in a different direction), and his Wizard's Foot's animation in the air is from the same Earthquake Punch animation.

I mean, it's still fanfiction by definition(since he has made up moves), but it's only some of the moveset. He takes a lot out of canon these days. The sword he uses now is the same one he was meant to use during Melee, due to reusing his tech demo model. So basically they more or less went back to an old idea. It's a non-canon sword nonetheless, but it's more based around him able to canonically use a sword. Funny thing is he only used a single sword poorly in TP, yet used them more properly in WW as a dual set, fighting like the Gerudo he is.

The sword he has in Smash more matches how he fights in his OOT Ganon form, which is brute strength. Albeit, it's flows really well with his current moveset, though not all find it easy to adapt to. But he's a bruiser in the end, so a bruiser-based sword is the logical approach. I think that's also why they went with the OOT design, since they could reuse his current moveset and add the sword without completely wrecking his playstyle. He doesn't even feel as different as Link currently does.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Moans of increasing anxiety

And if anyone was like "I want Omega Ridley now with a unique moveset too" I'd call them out for being selfish too.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

Worth noting that's not that true about Ganondorf. He does both punch and kick in canon these days. The Flame Choke is another of his moves, and his Forward Aerial is from the official artwork. Warlock Punch is pretty much his Earthquake Punch(but in a different direction), and his Wizard's Foot's animation in the air is from the same Earthquake Punch animation.

I mean, it's still fanfiction by definition(since he has made up moves), but it's only some of the moveset. He takes a lot out of canon these days. The sword he uses now is the same one he was meant to use during Melee, due to reusing his tech demo model. So basically they more or less went back to an old idea. It's a non-canon sword nonetheless, but it's more based around him able to canonically use a sword. Funny thing is he only used a single sword poorly in TP, yet used them more properly in WW as a dual set, fighting like the Gerudo he is.

The sword he has in Smash more matches how he fights in his OOT Ganon form, which is brute strength. Albeit, it's flows really well with his current moveset, though not all find it easy to adapt to. But he's a bruiser in the end, so a bruiser-based sword is the logical approach. I think that's also why they went with the OOT design, since they could reuse his current moveset and add the sword without completely wrecking his playstyle. He doesn't even feel as different as Link currently does.

I was moreso referring to how his framework is still similar to Falcon. But yes this is true. I think Dorf just needs slightly different normals and all specials but Side B should be replaced with his more well known abilities. I suppose this should be added to the mountain of times I’ve sucked at wording.

And 100% support fixing that by replacing Falcondorf with a unique Ganondorf.

NOT by keeping bull**** Falcondorf and adding another Ganon on the side.

Do both. Give Ganondorf proper justice and introduce Ganon. Ganon is the one with the infamous trident. Ganon is the one in each Top Down Zelda. Ganon is the one with a cast of giant spells.
Ganon LttP and Ganondorf represent entirely different sides of Zelda. The only overlap is character identity. Not moveset nor Design nor even appearences.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Do both. Give Ganondorf proper justice and introduce Ganon. Ganon is the one with the infamous trident. Ganon is the one in each Top Down Zelda. Ganon is the one with a cast of giant spells.
Ganon LttP and Ganondorf represent entirely different sides of Zelda. The only overlap is character identity. Not moveset nor Design nor even appearences.

No. I'd rather give Ganondorf a new moveset, and give his old moveset to Black Shadow.

Ganondorf gets the representation he deserves. The old Ganondorf moveset stays playable. And we get a NEW character in the game, instead of an old character, again.

It's win-win-win.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

No. I'd rather give Ganondorf a new moveset, and give his old moveset to Black Shadow.

Ganondorf gets the representation he deserves. The old Ganondorf moveset stays playable. And we get a NEW character in the game, instead of an old character, again.

It's win-win-win.

Sure, if thats what you want. I just think LttP Ganon is the objective best addition for representing the Top Down Zeldas. Still would prefer Skull Kid but he’s pretty dead as of current.

 

[SharkLord]

If I remember right, Solo was from a game with some unique new mechanics. I think he's from V, but I forgot what V did. Was it that one that started the Monster Recruiting? If so, that makes Slime being in the taunts(and with Luminary's Smash render on the banner) actually a case of fridge brilliance when both factors are combined.

Solo's from the fourth game, actually. The DQV hero was considered, but they dropped him on the basis that he used a staff and not a sword, so it wouldn't work witheoveryone else's sword-based moveset.

 

[Golden Icarus]

Yeah, and I'm saying, asking for a redesign of a character that is already in the game TWICE to take another Fighter slot is a **** to everyone who wants a character that's, ya know, NOT already in the game.

I'd be giving just as much **** to someone asking for a fourth Link.

What’s your opinion on Paper Mario? I’m genuinely asking because I kind of feel the same way towards him. I know that he could have a wildly unique moveset, but I’d rather that effort be put into a brand new character, rather than a paper version of a character we already have.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I was moreso referring to how his framework is still similar to Falcon. But yes this is true. I think Dorf just needs slightly different normals and all specials but Side B should be replaced with his more well known abilities.

Up B is awful, yeah. Worth noting that both his B and Down B are actual canonically references, but I agree they're ehhish. I think Wizard's Foot could be improved by adding his Sword as the core attack on the ground. The Aerial Wizard's Foot is an actual move he uses, though the hitbox is not the same.

Do both. Give Ganondorf proper justice and introduce Ganon. Ganon is the one with the infamous trident. Ganon is the one in each Top Down Zelda. Ganon is the one with a cast of giant spells.
Ganon LttP and Ganondorf represent entirely different sides of Zelda. The only overlap is character identity. Not moveset nor Design nor even appearences.

I don't agree with him, but how are you giving Ganondorf justice if you're adding a different character who just happens to be the same person? Wouldn't another Ganondorf do it better? Like, we can have three versions. Toon Ganondorf is actually perfect to use as he has two swords, moves very fast, can easily use Dead Man's Volley accurately(since he is designed to be fast enough to pull off combos with it. And if not that, the energy ball is fine too).

Ganon doesn't use DMV(Yuga Ganon doesn't count, cause that's Yuga being in control. That, and he's pretty much Agnahim/Ganonorf's counterpart in context, so it makes sense he can use it), but he does use a lot more projectiles.

Here's a quick example of why throwing a moveset onto another character(same person or not) doesn't really count as "giving someone justice". Say Shadow Link is added. He has Bombchus, the Grappling Hook, the Magnet Gloves, and the Sailboat as a Final Smash.(For some quick context, Shadow Link is specifically different from Dark Link by being a FSA character who is based upon the Toon Link design instead. So he's a Toon Link shadow counterpart). So basically, this would be giving Toon Link justice right? But it's not. Toon Link isn't using these moves. A different character is overall.

You can't add a character to give another character justice. The best you can do is add a similar version of a current character(that means the humanoid Ganon form at best) to give them justice. But, as we know, removing an old moveset is alienating to the fans. So for Sakurai, even if he would add Ganon, this wouldn't help anyone who wants a more accurate Ganondorf. It's a different version of the character but even more different than just another moveset of the current one playable. Zero Suit Samus is a good example of it too. She is not the suit-wearing Samus with a better moveset. She's just another take on the character with a separate set of abilities(of which hers are almost all made up. ...She's actually less canon than Ganondorf is, oddly enough).

Overall, Ganon and Mage Ganondorf being added would be a good way to satisfy the most fans. It appeals to everyone(bar the detractors... which let's be honest, Sakurai nor Nintendo care about) in general. That said, even if OOT Ganon was playable, ALTTP Ganon being playable would be a huge difference too and be quite cool. That, and OOT Ganon wouldn't be easy to reduce. Even Ridley needs an all new design, though some of his designs could've been somewhat reduced in size(Other M and Suepr Metroid both have designs who actually are easy to size change, but they still would be awkward. Making him from the ground up was probably the best move).

Solo's from the fourth game, actually. The DQV hero was considered, but they dropped him on the basis that he used a staff and not a sword, so it wouldn't work witheoveryone else's sword-based moveset.

Was the chapter thing the core thing 4 did first? Cause that's all I can remember from it besides Taloo(the merchant) being awesome.

Thank you. I remember the V Hero better now. ...Who got his own movie. Or one based upon it, anyway.

--------------

Spoiler: Long addition

I want to point out something; asking for ALTTP Ganon to be playable is not asking for a "redesign". It's asking for a character who has never been playable nor appeared in Smash in any way to be playable and represent an underused part of Smash. The topdown Zelda games are not actually represented outside of Zelda in Ultimate, due to her being the ALTTP/ALBW world design, and her moveset only has it one case, being the Phantom Knight, who is specifically from Spirit Tracks, a topdown game. She's not much of one. To explain each character;

• Link: The normal version was always from the 3D games, full stop. The overall character, who is a legacy character, is of course from the first Zelda game technically.
• Young Link: He's actually designed to represent OOT, and loosely MM by proxy. While he looks closer to the topdown Zelda Links, he has nothing in common with them beyond using the same items.
• Toon Link: He almost counts, if he used a single item from Phantom Hourglass, Spirit Tracks, or any of the Four Swords stuff. The closest is his black costume, but that's actually the normal Dark Link style from TP, a regular 3D game. Shadow Link, a FSA exclusive character, isn't in Smash even via a reference.
  • All 3 do have the Up and Downstabs, but these originate from a side scrolling game, and the Downstab is only from a topdown game for Toon Link due to Minish Cap.
• Zelda: ALTTP/ALBW now, but only Phantom Knight is from a topdown Zelda game. She represents the 3D era quite hard still.
• Sheik: Purely 3D. She's never been in a 2D game outside of a cameo in a 3rd party game(Scribblenauts, which created a new design based upon the Toon style. So basically Scribblenauts actually did create a loose Toon Sheik).
• Ganondorf: 100% 3D era, while using only some of his canon moves. Still more than some characters(Sheik and Zero Suit Samus), but he's clearly not that much like himself bar animations respectively. However, he is extremely physical after OOT so isn't that entirely off from their plans. Nintendo pretty much turned him into a bruiser and less so just using magic after OOT. Smash happens to share the same style in that way. He's lucky he ended up as the overall style that Nintendo wanted.

OOT Ganon is pretty much what Ganondorf is, a physical bruiser. He's also canonically massive, as are the general 3D Ganon forms. There's no reason to reduce his size, though he'd easily have a unique mvoeset.

ALTTP Ganon is both a weapon(Trident, nothing like Phantom Ganon's either) and a magic user. He constantly teleports, has times of invulnerabiliity(the only thing that OOT Ganondorf keeps, as he's not vulnerable outside of being his by his own Magic. And I am noting in the Zelda games here), is able to summon minions, create many more projectiles than Ganondorf ever did, and many at a time, and always emphasized magic over physical force. They're as different as night and day. Basically, this form of Ganon, despite being more physically bigger, is actually a mage outright. Ganondorf, even in OOT, was basically a Battlemage. He still has physical and magical abilities. He later on, as the games show, focused heavily on his physical side, though keep in mind this is also due to how he used the Triforce, and emphasized the Power part. Whether or not this is due to how Melee developed him(which is unlikely, but we don't know if WW and TP were in development much earlier than when Melee was working on the clones or not. It could be a conquence of Melee and communication among the various developers, or a pure coincidence) is unknown. But it's clear that Nintendo, either way, agrees that Ganondorf being physical is just as important as him having magical abilities. Ganon, even of this day, still has a clear emphasis on size and magic now. And only in the 3D games do they treat him as massive. 2D games reduce him constantly to a much more manageable size, though mostly cause ALTTP is the most iconic Ganon design, and a winning design.

That said, ALTTP Ganon is absolutely easy to add into Smash. He's not all that huge, and has easy proportions that he can still be reduced to easily be as tall as the current adult Link or even smaller. He has a very good bipedal design. That, and let's be real, this design does not remotely emphasize size, or even having physical strength. The most damage his "physicalness" can do is contact damage, and that's a typical boss thing anyway. Run into any boss and you take damage, is the general rule.

FYI, OOT Ganon is a redesign of the concept. ALTTP Ganon is barely different in concept to the Z1 version. He just has a weapon and more abilities(and a bit more armor, something difficult to show on the NES). It's about as unique as Bowser using more than a single Fireball. He didn't get redesigned in later Mario games till the 3D era. He just got more abilities and a more accurate sprite to emphasize his new abilities.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

I don't agree with him, but how are you giving Ganondorf justice if you're adding a different character who just happens to be the same person? Wouldn't another Ganondorf do it better? Like, we can have three versions. Toon Ganondorf is actually perfect to use as he has two swords, moves very fast, can easily use Dead Man's Volley accurately(since he is designed to be fast enough to pull off combos with it. And if not that, the energy ball is fine too).

Ganon doesn't use DMV(Yuga Ganon doesn't count, cause that's Yuga being in control. That, and he's pretty much Agnahim/Ganonorf's counterpart in context, so it makes sense he can use it), but he does use a lot more projectiles.

Here's a quick example of why throwing a moveset onto another character(same person or not) doesn't really count as "giving someone justice". Say Shadow Link is added. He has Bombchus, the Grappling Hook, the Magnet Gloves, and the Sailboat as a Final Smash.(For some quick context, Shadow Link is specifically different from Dark Link by being a FSA character who is based upon the Toon Link design instead. So he's a Toon Link shadow counterpart). So basically, this would be giving Toon Link justice right? But it's not. Toon Link isn't using these moves. A different character is overall.

You can't add a character to give another character justice. The best you can do is add a similar version of a current character(that means the humanoid Ganon form at best) to give them justice. But, as we know, removing an old moveset is alienating to the fans. So for Sakurai, even if he would add Ganon, this wouldn't help anyone who wants a more accurate Ganondorf. It's a different version of the character but even more different than just another moveset of the current one playable. Zero Suit Samus is a good example of it too. She is not the suit-wearing Samus with a better moveset. She's just another take on the character with a separate set of abilities(of which hers are almost all made up. ...She's actually less canon than Ganondorf is, oddly enough).

Overall, Ganon and Mage Ganondorf being added would be a good way to satisfy the most fans. It appeals to everyone(bar the detractors... which let's be honest, Sakurai nor Nintendo care about) in general. That said, even if OOT Ganon was playable, ALTTP Ganon being playable would be a huge difference too and be quite cool. That, and OOT Ganon wouldn't be easy to reduce. Even Ridley needs an all new design, though some of his designs could've been somewhat reduced in size(Other M and Suepr Metroid both have designs who actually are easy to size change, but they still would be awkward. Making him from the ground up was probably the best move).

Oh no no.
I don’t mean Ganondorf would be done justice by adding Ganon. I mean Ganondorf should be done his justice and then add Ganon on top.
While Neutral B and Down B can now be counted as a references to actual Canon. Most of us still see it as knock off Falcon Punch and Kick, as thats what they originally were. I think adding Dead Mans Volley and some other well known Ganondorf attacks would do well for giving him the respect he deserves as one of gamings most well known antagonists.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Oh no no.
I don’t mean Ganondorf would be done justice by adding Ganon. I mean Ganondorf should be done his justice and then add Ganon on top.
While Neutral B and Down B can now be counted as a references to actual Canon. Most of us still see it as knock off Falcon Punch and Kick, as thats what they originally were. I think adding Dead Mans Volley and some other well known Ganondorf attacks would do well for giving him the respect he deserves as one of gamings most well known antagonists.

Spoiler

DMV honestly needs to stay away from Ganondorf. The move only works because of constant reflection and tons of characters have to ignore how it works so it's not a completely crap move. It's about a reflection thing. Just use his energy ball, which specifically can stun opponents, what Ganondorf needs. That can be accomplished without removing or modifying his playstyle way too much(and alienating multiple players). I'm pretty sure Mage Ganondorf avoids Dead Man's Volley or has it separately from the Energy Ball. I forget which. The Energy Ball is super easy to add. You hold down A, when he does Thunder Punch, and he can charge it. This allows him to keep his constant flowing moveset(which works fine, but does need more balances), which improving him. The funny thing is about Warlock Punch and Wizard's Foot is the names are knocksoff intentionally, but the moves only worked because Ganondorf already uses something similar. He makes sense to reuse his moves, just with a slightly different style. Only his Up B is completely non-canon out of any of his special moves and makes no sense at this point. Dark Fists work, though.

DMV isn't his signature move, and he's only loosely iconic to him. It's pretty much only something that Phantom Ganon actually uses more than once at this point, and he's pretty much the core character that represents DMV now. That, and the move was not named outside of Phantom Hourglass, and the ones who use it by the time of Brawl were a Blue Stalfos(who looks kind of like Agnahim, but is a grim reaper variant too) and Twinrova. He stopped using it after OOT, letting tons of others do it. Twinrova knowing it, and teaching him magic, is an implication she is the original owner of the move at that point. Not saying she's iconic with it it, though, of course. Though her actual boss fight in OOT is the same concept, so it makes sense she's the creator of it. Otherwise, you've got the Poe Sisters(PH), Yuga Ganon, Agnahim, Shadow Agnahim, Phantom Ganon(the consistent user of it), Blue Stalfos(as noted above), and even freaking Vaati uses it(and I'm sure others I forgot. It's a boss move, not a Ganondorf-iimportant move). It's designed for a 3D boss fight, not for a fighting game. You can already reflect projectiles normally, so it doesn't add much to his repertoire. That, and he barely uses it after OOT, so it's not that important to him. He uses Swords more than once, so even a non-canon sword has more character importance. I don't deny it's an iconic fight, either, but it's clearly not a move that works well in Smash for that kind of moveset. Keep in mind even the biggest moveset revamps that are realistic still don't massively change their style. The biggest change overall is Bowser, who focuses on Wrestling, but he's still a heavyweight bruiser with throw moves, flame breath, etc. You don't need to adjust that much. Removing Ganondorf's B moves except at most Up B requires a whole retool of how to use him, since they're an important part of his repertoire. This is why these revamps are not done in Smash. They don't actually work. Fighting movesets are not about "canon" in crossovers so much as "flow properly". If you make a moveset that's solely about canon moves, the character has a good chance of failing to be good at anything. Ganondorf absolutely has issues(but that's due to being a slow character moreso), and one move that plain doesn't work(Volcano Kick), but he has a very flowing moveset that works well mechanically.

I get people like DMV, but it doesn't translate to Smash well. What's the point of taking liberties when it already can stun but Energy Ball does the same exact same thing that flows right in Smash without changing how it works. If you remove the reflectable nature, it's just the Energy Ball. DMV only has one point to it, and that's a cool name. But if it ain't a volley, it's a completely poor name. Even Jigglypuff's Rest, which is inaccurate, still puts her to Sleep, which is what the move is literally named for. That's one of the many moves who take liberties, but still at least make sense in context. DMV doesn't make sense unless a ton of stuff can reflect it... and that doesn't sound like a very good way to play in a fighting game. As I noted above earlier, it's designed for a 3D boss fight mainly. Yes, it's used in 2D, but you're still using it the same way, that is, on a field that has movement in all four directions. It's never been in a single side scrolling section or Zelda game. Why? Cause it literally doesn't work by design. It's hard meant for a much bigger field, where you can move left, right, up, down, sideways, etc. When reflecting it, you barely have any direction to reflect it to to make it actually interesting as a mechanic. It more or less would have a tinier spot to go to, and then you have the worst factor; Ganondorf is literally unable to do anything but take a hit or reflect it back. It's a cool boss move, sure. But it locks players into a back and forth, even if it did decently work on a side scrolling plane. So it actually makes the character worse by giving him less movement options. The Energy Ball, at worst, could be reflected by a few characters(who have actual reflecting moves), but it only leaves him open while charging, not open while the move is going on. In addition, how will it work well in a multiplayer fray? Think of how the other characters in the game are forced to either interrupt Ganondorf/the other player(who both are unable to actually move much at all. If they don't dodge, they need to reflect back) to actually move the game on. The move is also clearly designed hard for 1 VS 1. Smash is not that kind of game. It's overall not very translateable to Smash without taking so many massive liberties that it becomes Energy Ball anyway.

Since I admit this is hard to read, let me explain further in a smaller fashion;

• Dead Man's Volley's whole point is that any and all weapons can reflect it. Even joke weapons. It's a volley.
• It was designed to not work well in a side scrolling game, due to how it outright targets a player, but also is about locking the characters back and forth till someone misses.
• This makes it a 1 VS 1 exclusive move in every way.
  • Smash is not 1 VS 1. However, this move would be beautiful to add to OOT Ganon as a boss move, despite it being side scrolling. Since it legit makes sense in that context alone. Though it'd have to be only done in some Classic Modes/normal boss fight. I.E. Link VS Ganon.
• Energy Ball is pretty much the same move without everything able to reflect it. They both have stunning properties and actually require you to charge it first.
  • Energy Ball is also something Ganondorf actually uses in TP too, making it more notable to him.
• Ganondorf himself is not just about magic. He doesn't focus much on it in later entries, being a bruiser too. He tends to use swords as well. In a way, Smash actually captures all of his aspects pretty well, for a clone that is.
  • In fact, after Melee, Ganondorf canonically became more of a bruiser than flinging magic spells around. Some of these moves are in Smash too, like the Flame Choke and Sparta Kick.
  • His Forward Aerial is not a Falcon move. It's his own move from the artwork.
  • Volcano Kick is however made up, but is derived from Falcon either way. It fits his immense power, but building it up. In various games, he does use slow but powerful moves in either Ganon or Ganondorf form, so it does represent him well, but is a horrid move that needs to go anyway.
  • Only Dark Dive is completely inaccurate to him, and Dark Fists isn't a bad replacement. He's able to float and use energy moves in general, so it works well enough. It's one of his customs in Smash 4. Speaking of, Warlock Thrust is another canon move from TP, where he thrusts the Sage's Sword into... a Sage. It's meh in Smash, but they did make him a lot more canon in Brawl/4.
• Ganondorf uses DMV once. Tons of others do it, and Twinrova is probably the creator of it, but we don't actually know who created it. A lot use it who actually could not have learned it from Ganondorf too, meaning the move is not meant to be something important to Ganondorf, but a cool boss move in 3D or Overhead gamplay. Thus, they not giving it to Ganondorf just means it's not something they view as key. This is another reason why adding it to him doesn't really make him better. Especially as I noted it's difficult to balance right without changing it into another move entirely.

Last thing I will say is this; if you want to remove the reflectable nature of DMV(that is, all weapons that can be swung can reflect it, even joke ones), it's no longer a volley. It's just an energy ball that's misnamed. Besides, it's kind of silly to say you want the canon move but strip it of the only core part of what makes it worth adding. The fact Ganondorf uses a move that works the same but isn't super reflectable and is sitting right there to be used but is ignored for a cooler-sounding name seems silly to me. Why not just use the move that actually works in Smash? It doesn't matter what's more iconic. It matters what actually makes sense in Smash overall. What actually can be used without issues. No, I'm not calling people hypocrites either(I mean, it is implied), but look at how the move actually works. Being iconic is meaningless in the end if it can't be properly used in its iconic nature. It's a Volley or Nothing. I'll be honest, but I'm taking a guess this one of many possible reasons it's not in Smash as is. Cause you can clearly add it to a clone character like Ganondorf anyway, but we all know it'd have balance issues, so.

 

[PSIGuy]

i always thought it'd be cool if Ganondorf's side-b reflected projectiles, based on how he uses his capes to knock back the volley in some games. i also thought it'd be neat if ike's smashes used Urvan (his father's axe) instead of Ragnell just as a visual touch-up. not essential, but appreciated.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Best 'dorf.

What’s your opinion on Paper Mario?

The same.

Like, I just want NEW characters. And I don't think that's a hot take.

The DQV hero was considered, but they dropped him on the basis that he used a staff and not a sword

Which doesn't make sense. Because he uses a lot more swords than staffs.

 

[Shroob]

I'm not really knowledgeable on DQ 4-6 but even I was surprised they went with 4's protag.

....maybe it's just because I remember early internet and all the "Who did you have 5 marry" wars.



Bianca still best girl.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I'm not really knowledgeable on DQ 4-6 but even I was surprised they went with 4's protag.

....maybe it's just because I remember early internet and all the "Who did you have 5 marry" wars.



Bianca still best girl.

I'm not sure what 6's protag is like, but I'm not surprised 5's was skipped. He doesn't use a sword as his core weapon, so I get it. He got his due with a movie later on, at least~ And was still in the Final Smash.

i always thought it'd be cool if Ganondorf's side-b reflected projectiles, based on how he uses his capes to knock back the volley in some games. i also thought it'd be neat if ike's smashes used Urvan (his father's axe) instead of Ragnell just as a visual touch-up. not essential, but appreciated.

How does his Side B flow into it? He goes out with his hand forward to choke someone. Gerudo Dragon I somewhat get, but Flame Choke feels awkward. How would the animation work in that case?

I've spoken on his Thunder Punch being able to be held down to Charge into Energy Ball. Maybe he could use that? He has a taunt where he spins around that could also work. Maybe hitting A twice would let him flick his cape as a new attack, that could also reflect? That might work~

On another note, his Up Tilt could be turned into something not sucky. I mean, it's a powerful move if it could hit, but it now sucking people in... only makes him more vulnerable. If it had some super armor, it might be slightly decent, but Warlock Punch accomplishes the same thing at that point(and now is in a Zelda game, heh. Funny thing is both Warlock Punch and Falcon Punch either get referenced or used in an official game in the respective character's series after it debuted in Smash. HW is a spin-off, sure, but it's no less an official game).

(I didn't play enough of Ike's games, so. Um, I got no comment on Urvan).

 

[Idon]

i always thought it'd be cool if Ganondorf's side-b reflected projectiles, based on how he uses his capes to knock back the volley in some games. i also thought it'd be neat if ike's smashes used Urvan (his father's axe) instead of Ragnell just as a visual touch-up. not essential, but appreciated.

I'd rather not.

Tbh, I despise the "randomly pulls out weapon from thin air" moves. Makes them seem disjointed. I'd rather they add blue flames to it, would fit the theme of blue flames coming out on only Ike's 2 slowest moves.

 

[DarthEnderX]

He doesn't use a sword as his core weapon, so I get it.

He does though. His artwork always shows him with an oak staff, but that's like his 2nd weakest weapon.

Most of the game he uses swords(unless you're intentionally refusing to). And his strongest weapon(which is how all the Hero's Smash weapons were picked) is the Metal King Sword.

 

[Ben Holt]

let's play a fun game that can actually have a winner (in the next 7 years)

here's the third party percentage in each smash game

SSB64-0%
SSBM-0%
SSBB-5.13%
SSB4-3.48%
SSBU-20% (so far)

what doe everyone think the next smash games 3rd party percentage will be? this is the first time Nintendo went with "gaming all stars" instead of "Nintendo all stars" and even if some company's were difficult to work with in the beginning the sales of smash ultimate seems to have brought most companies on board to the point where smash get's special privilege's and discount's.

im going to say this trend continues and the next game will at launch have a...

SSB6-45%

percentage. of 3rd party's to first party's.

anyway goodnight! im barely awake so I think i'll just go to sleep now.

My ideal ratio of Nintendo to Third Party characters is 50/50. Nintendo IS the biggest IP holder, so it makes sense that they get the most characters.
But we NEED more Sonic characters. Perhaps as much as 10. It's just that big of a franchise.

 

[Pillow]

He does though. His artwork always shows him with an oak staff, but that's like his 2nd weakest weapon.

Most of the game he uses swords(unless you're intentionally refusing to). And his strongest weapon(which is how all the Hero's Smash weapons were picked) is the Metal King Sword.

Never played DQ but I was vaguely familiar to the character designs before Hero was added, and 6 was by far my favorite. So this is mildly upsetting to hear.

My ideal ratio of Nintendo to Third Party characters is 50/50. Nintendo IS the biggest IP holder, so it makes sense that they get the most characters.
But we NEED more Sonic characters. Perhaps as much as 10. It's just that big of a franchise.

Even Mario doesn’t have 10...Sonic is a big series but cmon really lol.

 

[DarthEnderX]

My ideal ratio of Nintendo to Third Party characters is 50/50. Nintendo IS the biggest IP holder, so it makes sense that they get the most characters.

Yeah! I'm gonna Like your po-

But we NEED more Sonic characters. Perhaps as much as 10.

...nevermind.

 

[7NATOR]

I'm not sure what 6's protag is like, but I'm not surprised 5's was skipped. He doesn't use a sword as his core weapon, so I get it. He got his due with a movie later on, at least~ And was still in the Final Smash.


How does his Side B flow into it? He goes out with his hand forward to choke someone. Gerudo Dragon I somewhat get, but Flame Choke feels awkward. How would the animation work in that case?

I've spoken on his Thunder Punch being able to be held down to Charge into Energy Ball. Maybe he could use that? He has a taunt where he spins around that could also work. Maybe hitting A twice would let him flick his cape as a new attack, that could also reflect? That might work~

On another note, his Up Tilt could be turned into something not sucky. I mean, it's a powerful move if it could hit, but it now sucking people in... only makes him more vulnerable. If it had some super armor, it might be slightly decent, but Warlock Punch accomplishes the same thing at that point(and now is in a Zelda game, heh. Funny thing is both Warlock Punch and Falcon Punch either get referenced or used in an official game in the respective character's series after it debuted in Smash. HW is a spin-off, sure, but it's no less an official game).

(I didn't play enough of Ike's games, so. Um, I got no comment on Urvan).

I believe SSF2 has the right idea with Up Tilt

Pretty much if you just press it, it works kind of like a Normal Up Tilt, it's on the slower side but you can reliably hit with it and it's pretty strong, but if you hold the button, you have the Wind Hitbox and the Super Strong hit. It would make the move much more useful, while still keeping the old aspects of the move

As for Reflect, maybe they could make his Reflect his Grab. Change the Grab animation so that Ganondorf grabs the Opponent, but also swings his Cape around that could reflect projectiles. It would also be useful in the Air since we could make it his Zair. The reflect would make it harder to Camp Ganondorf, but it won't do much more than that

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Even Mario doesn’t have 10...Sonic is a big series but cmon really lol.

Indeed. Pokemon gets away with 10 due to Pokemon Trainer. It'd have 8 at most otherwise. And one's a clone. Super Mario has, what, 9 now? And 1's a Clone while another's a really poorly done Echo(IDaisy has some cool animations, but that's it. A slightly different hurtbox so she doesn't play 1:1 with Peach, but the difference is so negligent nobody can tell the difference in any actual game. If it was an elemental change, it'd be rarely relevant, like with the Blast Box for one of the Belmonts...).

In fact, let's look at Pokemon for a sec. Let's remove Pichu, the clone. Then let's say PT didn't get in and we got Charizard. Big franchise with... 7 characters. Same as Super Mario if you remove Clones and Echoes. Fire Emblem? 5 characters instead. No Roy, Lucina, or Chrom. Legend of Zelda? 3 characters. Link, Zelda, and Sheik. Not much is it? Overall, without clones and echoes, literally two franchises would still be decently big at this point. Good thing we have them~

I believe SSF2 has the right idea with Up Tilt

Pretty much if you just press it, it works kind of like a Normal Up Tilt, it's on the slower side but you can reliably hit with it and it's pretty strong, but if you hold the button, you have the Wind Hitbox and the Super Strong hit. It would make the move much more useful, while still keeping the old aspects of the move

As for Reflect, maybe they could make his Reflect his Grab. Change the Grab animation so that Ganondorf grabs the Opponent, but also swings his Cape around that could reflect projectiles. It would also be useful in the Air since we could make it his Zair. The reflect would make it harder to Camp Ganondorf, but it won't do much more than that

That sounds fairly nice. I think he should have the ability to reflect, since it would up his game while not changing him to a degree that alienates players. He could use it. He also clearly can do that with his cape anyway, even if it's usually his own projectile. Speaking of, I forget, but how did Phantom Ganon do it in OOT?

...Also, Phantom Ganon(OOT) alt at some point please.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Never played DQ but I was vaguely familiar to the character designs before Hero was added, and 6 was by far my favorite. So this is mildly upsetting to hear.

6 isn't particulaly popular.

3, 8 and 11 make perfect sense. 4 over 5 is the only pick that's weird.

 

[Golden Icarus]

My ideal ratio of Nintendo to Third Party characters is 50/50. Nintendo IS the biggest IP holder, so it makes sense that they get the most characters.
But we NEED more Sonic characters. Perhaps as much as 10. It's just that big of a franchise.

While I do want to see more Sonic characters, I feel like Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, and Eggman would do the trick. Four is already a lot for a third party, but I do see a strong argument for each of those characters. Then maybe you could add Shadow and Amy, but after that, I can’t imagine needing more characters. I’m not even sure who to add after that. Silver? Rouge? Chaos? Blaze?

 

[Pillow]

6 isn't particulaly popular.

3, 8 and 11 make perfect sense. 4 over 5 is the only pick that's weird.

Woops I meant 5. Purple Turban.

Indeed. Pokemon gets away with 10 due to Pokemon Trainer. It'd have 8 at most otherwise. And one's a clone. Super Mario has, what, 9 now? And 1's a Clone while another's a really poorly done Echo(IDaisy has some cool animations, but that's it. A slightly different hurtbox so she doesn't play 1:1 with Peach, but the difference is so negligent nobody can tell the difference in any actual game. If it was an elemental change, it'd be rarely relevant, like with the Blast Box for one of the Belmonts...).

In fact, let's look at Pokemon for a sec. Let's remove Pichu, the clone. Then let's say PT didn't get in and we got Charizard. Big franchise with... 7 characters. Same as Super Mario if you remove Clones and Echoes. Fire Emblem? 5 characters instead. No Roy, Lucina, or Chrom. Legend of Zelda? 3 characters. Link, Zelda, and Sheik. Not much is it? Overall, without clones and echoes, literally two franchises would still be decently big at this point. Good thing we have them~


That sounds fairly nice. I think he should have the ability to reflect, since it would up his game while not changing him to a degree that alienates players. He could use it. He also clearly can do that with his cape anyway, even if it's usually his own projectile. Speaking of, I forget, but how did Phantom Ganon do it in OOT?

...Also, Phantom Ganon(OOT) alt at some point please.

With or without clones, pokemon is still the biggest series in Smash so having the highest number is appropriate. Though I suppose Sonic could have a few clones since most of its characters run fast and have similar proportions.

 

[Idon]

If they were to add DQV Hero, they should give him Pankraz's Sword.
1. It's cool looking, moreso than any other sword in the game.
2. It has a personal connection to the Hero.
3. It has minor story moments associated with it.
4. It is used as the Hero's weapon of choice in the movie.


I can understand the reasoning behind it as you would want a Hero who wields the Zenithian gear which DQ5 cannot, and promotionally DQ5 Hero's oak staff is integral to his look. I just wish they made an exception this once for the sake of including the all time favorite hero as a fighter.

 

[DarthEnderX]

While I do want to see more Sonic characters, I feel like Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, and Eggman would do the trick.

That, with Shadow as an Echo, would be the absolute MAXIMUM.

Sonic, Shadow echo, Eggman pilotin Death Egg Robot boss, "does the trick".

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

With or without clones, pokemon is still the biggest series in Smash so having the highest number is appropriate. Though I suppose Sonic could have a few clones since most of its characters run fast and have similar proportions.

Correct.

But there's lots of good reasons why it's so big anyway.

Sonic would mostly have semi-clones instead. Knuckles and Tails are much much more different than ones like Dr. Mario is from Mario. They share a few moves, but have different bodyshapes and abilities to a pretty big degree. Shadow and Metal Sonic are the only two who could work as regular clones or even echoes at that point. Most of the time now Knuckles and Tails are massively different in speed and abilities, that they deviate very much from Sonic. They can't go nearly as fast as he can, in Smash especially. Albeit, that depends if you view Ganondorf as a regular clone or a semi-clone now. Since they'd be that different.

(I forgot to mention, unrelated to this, that they already got the idea that "same person, different character" down in Melee thanks to Sheik and Zelda. Just like Pyra/Mythra, they were added for the dual gameplay. Unlike Pyra/Mythra, though, Sheik/Zelda actually only flowed as a concept because they were together. One didn't work without the other conceptually. Zelda didn't really work as a character idea on her own because she's not one who normally fights and had to massively borrow from Link's own spells to work. In hindsight they are her spells thanks to Skyward Sword, but still. Sheik on the other hand was designed to be a "fighting form" anyway, but wouldn't have gotten in without Zelda since it's her form. They were meant to be tied at the hip as is by concept. Pyra/Mythra were meant to be tied to Rex, but that wasn't plausible, so they scrapped him but did the rest. Do however note they are pretty similar movesets(being regular clones of each other), which is probably why it was even doable. Incidentally they are the same person, but different characters, due to the personality split. In a twist, Zelda and Sheik are now different incarnations in Smash. Funny that).

 

[Swamp Sensei]

For Sonic...

Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Eggman, Amy and Shadow are all characters who would make sense in smash. They're all super popular, important and are franchise mainstays.

Anyone else is lowering the bar a bit. Like E-123 Omega is my favorite Sonic character. He doesn't make sense unless Smash has literally hundreds of characters and like.... 15 for Sonic.