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Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

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SpectreJordan

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Honestly, I can't see them going above 25%, and the only reason I consider that not a stretch itself is that we're currently just 5% off from that.
I think the jump in third-parties is another symptom of Ultimate being "ultimate" or "special"; they're going for characters that normally wouldn't be considered to make this game more of a huge event.
It’s an odd situation & really just depends on what the next Smash game actually is. If it’s a “reboot” that drastically changes most fighters up then they can easily go with a much larger Nintendo presence.

But if it’s more of this type of Smash & the movesets largely remain the same, then I think the third party presence will grow. New characters sell the game & the pool of new Nintendo characters that will excite a lot of people is already small. You have like Waluigi, BanDee, Dixie, Isaac, Lyn, some Zelda characters, Ring Fit, Officer Howard, Octoling & their choice of Pokemon. After that, you start going pretty obscure & niche.

So unless we get an explosion of big new Nintendo IPs between now & then, we’ll see a mix of the remaining popular Nintendo requests as well as a decent amount of third parties.
 

Ben Holt

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While I do want to see more Sonic characters, I feel like Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, and Eggman would do the trick. Four is already a lot for a third party, but I do see a strong argument for each of those characters. Then maybe you could add Shadow and Amy, but after that, I can’t imagine needing more characters. I’m not even sure who to add after that. Silver? Rouge? Chaos? Blaze?
Silver, Blaze, and Metal Sonic.
 

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So unless we get an explosion of big new Nintendo IPs between now & then, we’ll see a mix of the remaining popular Nintendo requests as well as a decent amount of third parties.
It's a bit more complicated than that.

Nintendo IPs that already have characters can easily create breakout stars in time between Ultimate and the next Smash.

:ultlucario: and :ultrosalina: are some good examples that we have already seen this happen with.

We're definitely gonna have new rising stars in the next Smash. We always have them.
 
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Ben Holt

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Never played DQ but I was vaguely familiar to the character designs before Hero was added, and 6 was by far my favorite. So this is mildly upsetting to hear.

Even Mario doesn’t have 10...Sonic is a big series but cmon really lol.
Mario needs 20.
Toad, Toadette, Waluigi, Geno, King Boo, Dry Bones, Dry Bowser, Cappy, Paper Mario, Paper Luigi, and Mario Kart Racer.
 

Pillow

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Silver, Blaze, and Metal Sonic.
There aren't many characters that would legitimately upset me if they were added to Smash, but Silver would do it.

Mario needs 20.
Toad, Toadette, Waluigi, Geno, King Boo, Dry Bones, Dry Bowser, Cappy, Paper Mario, Paper Luigi, and Mario Kart Racer.
Well, I suppose we can agree to disagree.
 
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SpectreJordan

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It's a bit more complicated than that.

Nintendo IPs that already have characters can easily create breakout stars in time between Ultimate and the next Smash.

:ultlucario: and :ultrosalina: are some good examples that we have already seen this happen with.

We're definitely gonna have new rising stars in the next Smash. We always have them.
That’s a fair point. I didn’t really think of that part tbh. But I don’t think that’d be enough to add too many extra characters to the pool I mentioned.
 

Shroob

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It's a bit more complicated than that.

Nintendo IPs that already have characters can easily create breakout stars in time between Ultimate and the next Smash.

:ultlucario: and :ultrosalina: are some good examples that we have already seen this happen with.

We're definitely gonna have new rising stars in the next Smash. We always have them.
This is true, but it feels like, for Mario at least, we're completely tapped out. Aside from Waluigi and Toad, we have basically everyone. I can't imagine we'll get another breakout Mario character between now and next Smash, unless they say, make Captain Toad his own character.
 

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How does his Side B flow into it? He goes out with his hand forward to choke someone. Gerudo Dragon I somewhat get, but Flame Choke feels awkward. How would the animation work in that case?
Ganondorf's current Flame Choke has him throw an arm back before charging forward with it. [Idle] > [Start-Up with Arm] > [Charge] > [Miss] or [Grab]

For the Cape-Choke, when he turns back dramatically in the start-up, he reaches for his cape before charging forward with it. If he grabs someone, he lets the cape drop by itself as he slams them but if he touches a projectile, he dramatically flourishes it.

I hope that makes any amount of sense.
 

7NATOR

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For Sonic...

Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Eggman, Amy and Shadow are all characters who would make sense in smash. They're all super popular, important and are franchise mainstays.

Anyone else is lowering the bar a bit. Like E-123 Omega is my favorite Sonic character. He doesn't make sense unless Smash has literally hundreds of characters and like.... 15 for Sonic.
Personally, How I would rate it?

-Sonic (Already in)
-Tails, Knuckles, Eggman, Shadow
-Amy, Metal Sonic
-The rest of the characters

I think there is a reason Eggman, Tails, Shadow & Knuckles are the 4 that get focused on for another Sonic character. These 4 all have merits that could make them Reasonable to be the 2nd choice for Sonic, and they also happen to be the Most popular 4 after Sonic.

Amy and Metal Sonic are up there, But I think they can't compare in terms of merit to the above 4, in that they don't have anything that I don't think would put them above the other characters to be the 2nd Choice. Amy and Metal Sonic are prominent enough to be considered for Choices for another Sonic character later on, but I don't think as of right now

Everyone else is below them. There's characters that have more reason to be in than others, but honestly by this point I imagine Sonic wouldn't even have this many characters to get to this point, unless they have technology to be able to develop characters much faster, like in Days or weeks
 

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https://en-americas-support.nintendo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/54794 BTW, I don't think the patch notes were linked here.

Dark Pit does not have any changes. Take that as you will, considering the recent glitch(assuming this isn't from a previous patch and we never noticed it).

That said, there's a ton of notable characters in all kinds of franchises that could be added. Super Mario, Sonic, Pokemon, etc.

Also, I admit it's hard for me to find a Sonic character I actually dislike. But that's either due to memes, cool designs, or just funny moments. I won't lie. I like Silver. I like that he's a much less serious take on Trunks, and way more memetastic(and also far less smart, despite using psychic powers. Albeit, anybody who knows how telepathy works will tell you that it has nothing to do with actual intelligence, but is a completely different kind of mind usage).

Ganondorf's current Flame Choke has him throw an arm back before charging forward with it. [Idle] > [Start-Up with Arm] > [Charge] > [Miss] or [Grab]

For the Cape-Choke, when he turns back dramatically in the start-up, he reaches for his cape before charging forward with it. If he grabs someone, he lets the cape drop by itself as he slams them but if he touches a projectile, he dramatically flourishes it.

I hope that makes any amount of sense.
Okay, that makes a lot more sense. I haven't played recently so I didn't remember the animation that well. I do like the idea of it being his AA move too. Maybe both?
 

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-Sonic (Already in)
-Tails, Knuckles, Eggman, Shadow
-Amy, Metal Sonic
-The rest of the characters
Silver, Blaze, and Rouge are the next tier after Amy and Metal Sonic.
Then Big, Chaotix, Cream, and E-123 Omega.
Then the rest.
 

Swamp Sensei

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That’s a fair point. I didn’t really think of that part tbh. But I don’t think that’d be enough to add too many extra characters to the pool I mentioned.
It really depends on how long the period between Smash games in.

A big gap like Brawl to Wii U (2008-2014) we're gonna get a lot of rising stars (and Smash 4 did).

A small gap like Wii U to Ultimate (2014-2018), probably just a couple.

This is true, but it feels like, for Mario at least, we're completely tapped out. Aside from Waluigi and Toad, we have basically everyone. I can't imagine we'll get another breakout Mario character between now and next Smash, unless they say, make Captain Toad his own character.
I mean... I wasn't talking about Mario in particular... Just in general.

Regardless I agree. Once we get Toad/Captain Toad and Waluigi, I think the franchise is set for a long while.

Mario Kart Racer.
Please don't tell me this idea is just putting Mario in a car and calling it a day.
 

Ben Holt

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It really depends on how long the period between Smash games in.

A big gap like Brawl to Wii U (2008-2014) we're gonna get a lot of rising stars (and Smash 4 did).

A small gap like Wii U to Ultimate (2014-2018), probably just a couple.


I mean... I wasn't talking about Mario in particular... Just in general.

Regardless I agree. Once we get Toad/Captain Toad and Waluigi, I think the franchise is set for a long while.


Please don't tell me this idea is just putting Mario in a car and calling it a day.
No. Here's a trailer idea I sent to Venus of the Desert Bloom Venus of the Desert Bloom once:
8 player Smash with Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Yoshi, Wario, Donkey Kong, and Bowser Jr. all fighting regularly.
All the characters start to notice that Mario disappeared, so they stop fighting in confusion with thought bubbles with Mario's face and a "?" question mark.
Then, you hear a loud engine roar, and a kart comes in knocking out the other seven fighters. The camera then pans to the driver, being Mario with a thumbs up.
"MARIO KART REVS UP!"
Then Mario, in his Kart, gets surrounded by the other seven characters in their own karts, implying alternate costumes.
Cuts to gameplay, showing the eight racers all duking it out in their crazy Kart-Kombat. Then the sound of more engines revving up interrupts the battle.
In rapid succession, with a visible counter counting the number of racers, these racers cross the finish line in Figure-8 Circuit:
9 Shy Guy, 10 Toad, 11 Koopa Troopa, 12 Diddy Kong, 13 Daisy, 14 Rosalina, 15 Dry Bones, 16 Toadette, 17 Waluigi, 18 Wiggler, 19 Lakitu...
Then a long pause, growing suspense...
More revving engines!
20 Link, 21 Villager, 22 Inkling, 23 Kirby, and 24, Captain Falcon!
For the first time, a Smash Bros. character comes with 24 alternate costumes! (3 rows of 8)
The trailer ends with a wide shot of Figure 8 Circuit with the 24 karts racing it out.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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This is true, but it feels like, for Mario at least, we're completely tapped out. Aside from Waluigi and Toad, we have basically everyone. I can't imagine we'll get another breakout Mario character between now and next Smash, unless they say, make Captain Toad his own character.
Captain Toad is his own character. The person behind the game(Treasure Tracker) actually noted Captain Toad is an unrelated member of the species.

It's more that his personality is not stand-out from regular Toad. They're separate people and characters, but they did a very poor job of making them feel unique outside of abilities at most. -_-

Not that it's a hard mistake to make. The US version along with the guides don't make it clear that Captain Toad is not the main Toad either. But yeah, they were never once the same person in any way. I absolutely, again, agree they have failed to separate them meaningfully beyond gameplay. So anyone making that mistake is highly justified due to both a bad guide and barely any personality differences.
 

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Captain Toad is his own character. The person behind the game(Treasure Tracker) actually noted Captain Toad is an unrelated member of the species.

It's more that his personality is not stand-out from regular Toad. They're separate people and characters, but they did a very poor job of making them feel unique outside of abilities at most. -_-

Not that it's a hard mistake to make. The US version along with the guides don't make it clear that Captain Toad is not the main Toad either. But yeah, they were never once the same person in any way. I absolutely, again, agree they have failed to separate them meaningfully beyond gameplay. So anyone making that mistake is highly justified due to both a bad guide and barely any personality differences.
I meant in regards to being in Smash, should have clarified lol.

"Captain Toad be his own character in Smash."


As is, he's just a background cameo.
 

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No. Here's a trailer idea I sent to Venus of the Desert Bloom Venus of the Desert Bloom once:
8 player Smash with Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Yoshi, Wario, Donkey Kong, and Bowser Jr. all fighting regularly.
All the characters start to notice that Mario disappeared, so they stop fighting in confusion with thought bubbles with Mario's face and a "?" question mark.
Then, you hear a loud engine roar, and a kart comes in knocking out the other seven fighters. The camera then pans to the driver, being Mario with a thumbs up.
"MARIO KART REVS UP!"
Then Mario, in his Kart, gets surrounded by the other seven characters in their own karts, implying alternate costumes.
Cuts to gameplay, showing the eight racers all duking it out in their crazy Kart-Kombat. Then the sound of more engines revving up interrupts the battle.
In rapid succession, with a visible counter counting the number of racers, these racers cross the finish line in Figure-8 Circuit:
9 Shy Guy, 10 Toad, 11 Koopa Troopa, 12 Diddy Kong, 13 Daisy, 14 Rosalina, 15 Dry Bones, 16 Toadette, 17 Waluigi, 18 Wiggler, 19 Lakitu...
Then a long pause, growing suspense...
More revving engines!
20 Link, 21 Villager, 22 Inkling, 23 Kirby, and 24, Captain Falcon!
For the first time, a Smash Bros. character comes with 24 alternate costumes! (3 rows of 8)
The trailer ends with a wide shot of Figure 8 Circuit with the 24 karts racing it out.
So its really just a Kart moveset.

We already use the majority of iconic Mario Kart items in Smash as regular items.

Honestly I'm sold on this idea even less now.
 

SpectreJordan

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I actually think there’s a good chance most of the third party companies return, maybe not all of their characters though. Nintendo’s seemed to learned the importance of third party connections again, so I can’t see them ruining any of these relationships. Smash Ultimate is one of the largest games ever so I can see most companies wanting in on the sequel.

:ultsonic::ultpacman::ultmegaman::ultryu: are all safe. They’re super iconic & from pretty chill companies that like Nintendo. Plus, their companies shill them out into any & everything that asks it seems like. If Sonic comes back (he will), then Bayo & Joker probably will too. Bayo is an adopted Nintendo character (if 3 ever comes out atleast). Persona 5’s cemented itself as a classic & Joker has been one of Ultimate’s most popular characters.

Square’s characters are on most people’s chopping block, but I think they’ll come back. They wouldn’t have gotten 3 characters & all of these spirit events if they’re THAT bad to work with. Nintendo & Square have gotten pretty chummy recently too; it’s just the Switch’s hardware holding Nintendo back from getting all of Square’s output.

SNK seemed like the easiest company to work with, they’d 100% come back if asked to. So that one is entirely in Nintendo’s corner on if they want Terry back.

The two wild cards are Konami & Microsoft.

Konami’s seemed pretty chill with Ultimate. But they’ve already skipped out on Smash once. They’ve also seemed to lose most of their interest in gaming. They haven’t had a major release since 2015. Anything involving their IPs has been licensed out or an easy to do port. I feel there’s a good chance they could end up selling their gaming IPs by the next Smash & Sony would be a prime candidate to pick up Metal Gear & even Castlevania.

The relationship between Microsoft & Nintendo is brand new, so we have to wait to see how strong it is. I think this really depends on if Phil Spencer is still the head of Xbox by then or if his successor shares his philosophy of being friendly to Nintendo. Microsoft has said that they don’t see Nintendo & even Sony as enemies anymore; with their focus being on Google, Amazon & Tencent. So it’s possible they remain friendly with Nintendo by the next Smash.
 

Ben Holt

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So its really just a Kart moveset.

We already use the majority of iconic Mario Kart items in Smash as regular items.

Honestly I'm sold on this idea even less now.
Someone doesn't like fun.
 

SpectreJordan

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No. Here's a trailer idea I sent to Venus of the Desert Bloom Venus of the Desert Bloom once:
8 player Smash with Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Yoshi, Wario, Donkey Kong, and Bowser Jr. all fighting regularly.
All the characters start to notice that Mario disappeared, so they stop fighting in confusion with thought bubbles with Mario's face and a "?" question mark.
Then, you hear a loud engine roar, and a kart comes in knocking out the other seven fighters. The camera then pans to the driver, being Mario with a thumbs up.
"MARIO KART REVS UP!"
Then Mario, in his Kart, gets surrounded by the other seven characters in their own karts, implying alternate costumes.
Cuts to gameplay, showing the eight racers all duking it out in their crazy Kart-Kombat. Then the sound of more engines revving up interrupts the battle.
In rapid succession, with a visible counter counting the number of racers, these racers cross the finish line in Figure-8 Circuit:
9 Shy Guy, 10 Toad, 11 Koopa Troopa, 12 Diddy Kong, 13 Daisy, 14 Rosalina, 15 Dry Bones, 16 Toadette, 17 Waluigi, 18 Wiggler, 19 Lakitu...
Then a long pause, growing suspense...
More revving engines!
20 Link, 21 Villager, 22 Inkling, 23 Kirby, and 24, Captain Falcon!
For the first time, a Smash Bros. character comes with 24 alternate costumes! (3 rows of 8)
The trailer ends with a wide shot of Figure 8 Circuit with the 24 karts racing it out.
That sounds insane... I’m down. At the very least, it should be incorporated into Waluigi. I’ve always thought his moveset would be a mix of sports, Mario Kart items & Mario Party references. But making him a full on Kart character would work too.
 

Ben Holt

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I still stand by this, Metal is a superior option for an echo compared to Shadow, since he was literally made to rival Sonic.
Shadow is literally a clone of Sonic in every main series Sonic game. Exact same moveset. Metal is not. He's more suited to a unique character.
 

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I still stand by this, Metal is a superior option for an echo compared to Shadow, since he was literally made to rival Sonic.
He's superior in that sense, sure. But Echo's aren't about who most closely resembles the character's moveset, but rather, which is the most important character they could add that could conceivably borrow most of their moveset from another character. Shadow is simply more important to the Sonic franchise than Metal Sonic, and should be the echo if the situation ever arises where Sonic was chosen for an echo and these were the 2 options.
 

7NATOR

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This is true, but it feels like, for Mario at least, we're completely tapped out. Aside from Waluigi and Toad, we have basically everyone. I can't imagine we'll get another breakout Mario character between now and next Smash, unless they say, make Captain Toad his own character.
Well there is Geno, but he's very special case that I'm unsure will ever be sorted out to him being Playable. I think he can still make it, but yes

There's also the possibility that King Boo could be more prominent. Luigi's Mansion is really coming into it's own, especially with how good the 3rd game did, and he's the Main villain of that.

Nintendo has also been heavily pushing Toadette lately as well, though honestly I imagine she'd be an alt of Toad so there's that

I know some might say Pauline, but I Heavily doubt that.

Silver, Blaze, and Rouge are the next tier after Amy and Metal Sonic.
Then Big, Chaotix, Cream, and E-123 Omega.
Then the rest.
-Omega should be in a somewhat comparable tier to Rouge, and also Big should be kind of higher up too.

-I would also add Chaos 0 to the list as well. Despite really only being important in SA1, he's still made some appearances there and there and is references good amount.
 

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let's play a fun game that can actually have a winner (in the next 7 years)

here's the third party percentage in each smash game

SSB64-0%
SSBM-0%
SSBB-5.13%
SSB4-3.48%
SSBU-20% (so far)

what doe everyone think the next smash games 3rd party percentage will be? this is the first time Nintendo went with "gaming all stars" instead of "Nintendo all stars" and even if some company's were difficult to work with in the beginning the sales of smash ultimate seems to have brought most companies on board to the point where smash get's special privilege's and discount's.

im going to say this trend continues and the next game will at launch have a...

SSB6-45%

percentage. of 3rd party's to first party's.

anyway goodnight! im barely awake so I think i'll just go to sleep now.
So first of all your maths are a bit off - Smash 4 has 5.88% before DLC and 10.34% after DLC, while Ultimate has 13.16% before DLC and 18.39% so far.

For the broader question, it is hard to say because bringing in so many guests is already unprecedented compared to other fighting games, which have only just got to the point where having 4 or 5 isn't considered unusual. Of course, that's because characters from other companies usually don't get pre-DLC slots (outside of Soul Calibur). Likely due to the contracts meaning that it's easier to give rights holders a cut of DLC sales than of the game itself.

Even with the level Ultimate is at, you're talking about a really large redefinition of what Smash is. The composition of the second pass definitely suggests that Nintendo still, for now, sees it as a Nintendo game with invitees first and foremost, not a company smorgasbord. The roster in and of itself is also freakishly large as it is, even without counting the various types of clone. Just for the sake of it, I thought I'd fiddle with some numbers to see how a 45% guest roster could even be achieved.

If the last two characters in Ultimate are third-party (which gets us to 20%) and there's no cuts at all, I'm pretty sure that this would require SSB6 to launch with 40 new guests and no Nintendo additions for a 58/129 = 45% ratio. That's more than twice the number of pre-DLC newcomers in any game in the series before you even consider the licensing costs - companies are not giving their IP away for free. There's only so many Jeannes and Shadows you can throw in to pad out the numbers; even if the Switch's successor launches in 2026, such a monster game is likely only halfway through development by then and would require some out of this world sales to make back its budget. That's not completely impossible to imagine, but, well...

So let's put cuts on the table. At the most extreme end, every series is pared back to a single character. In terms of current franchises, that's 13/38 = 34% guests. From there you only need to add 8 guest franchises to get to 21/46 = 46%. There's probably room to represent a few more Nintendo faces, which would require something like a 25/55 = 45% split to balance it out. But now people are in an absolute uproar because you've chucked out a lot of diversity and fan favourites to get to this point.

Finally, I'll look at a middle ground where there's some heavy cuts but they're less severe. From the current pantheon, if we keep
:ultmario::ultluigi::ultpeach::ultbowser::ultlink::ultzelda::ultganondorf::ultpikachu::ultmewtwo::ultlucario::ultdk::ultdiddy::ultkrool::ultyoshi::ultsamus::ultridley::ultkirby::ultmetaknight::ultkingdedede::ultfox::ultwolf::ultness::ultfalcon::ultmarth::ultike::ultrobin::ultbyleth::ultgnw::ultduckhunt::ultpit::ultpalutena::ultwario::ultolimar::ultvillager::ultisabelle::ultwiifittrainer::ultlittlemac::ultmiifighters::ultshulk::ultinkling::ultminmin:ultsnake::ultsonic::ultpacman::ultmegaman::ultryu::ultken::ultbayonetta::ultcloud::ultsephiroth::ultsimon::ultjoker::ulthero::ultbanjokazooie::ult_terry::ultsteve:
then you're starting out at 15/56 = 27% third-party representation. For newcomers, some viable adds are

First-party: Captain Toad, Impa, Cinderace, Tom Nook, Octoling, Ayumi, Isaac, and two peeps from late in the Switch's life that we haven't even heard of yet
Third-party: Raiden, Tails, Dr. Eggman, Zero, Chun-Li, Alucard, Lloyd, Heihachi, Crash, Coco, Doomguy, Layton, Hayabusa

This is already pushing past the limits of feasibility, particularly with minimal clones, and I can still only get the ratio up to 28/78 = 36%. That's the most I could see happening, and it would require the longest initial development period the series has ever seen. As I've said, a 45% starting roster really reshapes what Smash is and is hard to conceive of. I expect that whatever form Smash 6 ends up taking, the base roster will have 10 guests at most with the rest appearing as DLC.
 

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I actually think there’s a good chance most of the third party companies return, maybe not all of their characters though. Nintendo’s seemed to learned the importance of third party connections again, so I can’t see them ruining any of these relationships. Smash Ultimate is one of the largest games ever so I can see most companies wanting in on the sequel.

:ultsonic::ultpacman::ultmegaman::ultryu: are all safe. They’re super iconic & from pretty chill companies that like Nintendo. Plus, their companies shill them out into any & everything that asks it seems like. If Sonic comes back (he will), then Bayo & Joker probably will too. Bayo is an adopted Nintendo character (if 3 ever comes out atleast). Persona 5’s cemented itself as a classic & Joker has been one of Ultimate’s most popular characters.

Square’s characters are on most people’s chopping block, but I think they’ll come back. They wouldn’t have gotten 3 characters & all of these spirit events if they’re THAT bad to work with. Nintendo & Square have gotten pretty chummy recently too; it’s just the Switch’s hardware holding Nintendo back from getting all of Square’s output.

SNK seemed like the easiest company to work with, they’d 100% come back if asked to. So that one is entirely in Nintendo’s corner on if they want Terry back.

The two wild cards are Konami & Microsoft.

Konami’s seemed pretty chill with Ultimate. But they’ve already skipped out on Smash once. They’ve also seemed to lose most of their interest in gaming. They haven’t had a major release since 2015. Anything involving their IPs has been licensed out or an easy to do port. I feel there’s a good chance they could end up selling their gaming IPs by the next Smash & Sony would be a prime candidate to pick up Metal Gear & even Castlevania.

The relationship between Microsoft & Nintendo is brand new, so we have to wait to see how strong it is. I think this really depends on if Phil Spencer is still the head of Xbox by then or if his successor shares his philosophy of being friendly to Nintendo. Microsoft has said that they don’t see Nintendo & even Sony as enemies anymore; with their focus being on Google, Amazon & Tencent. So it’s possible they remain friendly with Nintendo by the next Smash.
Honestly you're pretty spot on in regards to company relationships.

Sega, Namco and Capcom are all super close to Nintendo.

SNK, Square and Microsoft all have positive working relationships.

Konami barely gives a **** either way.

Honestly, I don't think its gonna be company attitudes that will make third parties get cut. It's gonna be budgets and prioritization.
 

Ben Holt

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I'm just saying...

If you're gonna make a moveset based on a character constantly riding a vehicle.

Give me Wave Racer so I can have this jam in smash.

Let it be known that I support Excitebiker with Mach Rider as an Echo Fighter.
 

DarthEnderX

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Silver, Blaze, and Metal Sonic.
I mean...you're just wrong dude. Nobody but hardcore Sonic fans cares about Silver or Blaze. And most Sonic fans actively DISLIKE Silver.

Personally, How I would rate it?

-Sonic (Already in)
-Tails, Knuckles, Eggman, Shadow
-Amy, Metal Sonic
-The rest of the characters
This is correct.

I'm just saying...

If you're gonna make a moveset based on a character constantly riding a vehicle.
Obligatory...
1615109225674.png
 
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Swamp Sensei

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Let it be known that I support Excitebiker with Mach Rider as an Echo Fighter.
That's nice.

But Wave Race is not Excitebike.

And Mach Rider probably shouldn't be an Excitebiker echo. I mean, one frequently uses guns for Pete's sake.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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I still stand by this, Metal is a superior option for an echo compared to Shadow, since he was literally made to rival Sonic.
Shadow actually started off as a straight clone. He actually is a clone of Super Sonic's design too in canon. That's why his hair is different and he's canonically stronger and faster overall than Sonic.

Metal Sonic was a boss who rivals Sonic, but actually doesn't work that way quite often. After Sonic CD, his next games were Sonic R(where he was faster, and moved differently from Sonic) and Sonic the Fighters(where he was a boss with very different unique abilities. Everybody had many of the same normal moves though).

Shadow first grew unique in Sonic Battle, but he still was clearly derived from Sonic in multiple ways. They had many of the same stats/abilities, what is clearly a revision of the moveset, and only their Specials were heavily different. Even their Colors that Emerl can get are almost the same. Sonic Heroes had them identical bar a few moves. Shadow he's still similar to Sonic, but a few new abilities. He's similar in 06 itself, but has new aerial abilities and uses vehicles. They play similarly in the Storybook games too. And in Rivals everyone is the same.

...Metal Sonic pretty quickly got changed up faster than Shadow. Both overall are designed to be counterparts to Sonic, though. Both make sense as an Echo in their own way. One thing to note is Metal Sonic is not always the same weight, where Shadow is supposed to be. He's only slightly faster and stronger than Sonic, but Metal Sonic actually is faster and stronger generally, and it's only in the Sonic CD-based movie(the OVA) and some animations that he's "identical". Overall, Shadow is actually more similar.

Shadow is literally a clone of Sonic in every main series Sonic game. Exact same moveset. Metal is not. He's more suited to a unique character.
That's not correct. That's literally in Adventure 2(which Sonic has more abilities anyway), and the two Sonic Rivals game. Storybook games too(multiplayer), but I didn't get Shadow in Black Knight so I can't speak on that.

  • Sonic Battle has them both with different movsets and abilities. He's not actually a clone even with the similar stats. The only clones are Emerl(base version, to Sonic), Phi(able to copy every character, much like Emerl technically can), Ultimate Emerl(of Sonic, again, though stands out with exaggerated abilities), and a metal guard(I forgot its name, but a clone of Gamma).
  • Heroes has classes, but every single character has their own unique solo moves. So this is incorrect.
  • 06 has similar moves for a lot of characters, but nobody plays exactly the same in any case. Shadow has unique aerials and vehicles. Sonic doesn't have these aerials and instead has a ridiculous speed section.
  • Storybook games' multiplayer is correct, though. ...Black Knight I can't say, as I noted above.
  • Sonic Rivals they are legit clones. Everybody plays the same.

That's it for core games(or at least are part of the main set of stories. Rivals is kind of odd since it relates to Rush and 06, but could be considered non-canon). Otherwise, the Racing Spin-Offs rarely deviate characters from each other outside of Sonic R. They're at most "class types" like Heroes, but they do play differently due to power/speed differences. I don't remember how the Olympic games are, though. Sonic and Shadow are the same category. But I think some have slightly different stats??
 
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Ben Holt

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I mean...you're just wrong dude. Nobody but hardcore Sonic fans cares about Silver or Blaze. And most Sonic fans actively DISLIKE Silver.
They dislike Sonic 06, not Silver.
And only hardcore Mario fans know who Geno is.
Only hardcore Fire Emblem fans know who Corrin is.
Only hardcore Nintendo fans in general know who Ice Climbers are.
Silver and Rouge are not in that camp.
That belongs to characters like Bark, Bean, Fang, E-102 Gamma, Mighty, Ray, etc.
 

Speed Weed

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Let it be known that I support Excitebiker with Mach Rider as an Echo Fighter.
listen man

Mach Rider does NOT warrant having their potential squandered for the sake of adding more echoes

you're really tellin me you look at this crazy Mad Max lookin ass dude and go "yeah let's give them the same moveset as the other character that's just Guy In A Bike"?
 
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Ben Holt

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Shadow actually started off as a straight clone. He actually is a clone of Super Sonic's design too in canon. That's why his hair is different and he's canonically stronger and faster overall than Sonic.

Metal Sonic was a boss who rivals Sonic, but actually doesn't work that way quite often. After Sonic CD, his next games were Sonic R(where he was faster, and moved differently from Sonic) and Sonic the Fighters(where he was a boss with very different unique abilities. Everybody had many of the same normal moves though).

Shadow first grew unique in Sonic Battle, but he still was clearly derived from Sonic in multiple ways. They had many of the same stats/abilities, what is clearly a revision of the moveset, and only their Specials were heavily different. Even their Colors that Emerl can get are almost the same. Sonic Heroes had them identical bar a few moves. Shadow he's still similar to Sonic, but a few new abilities. He's similar in 06 itself, but has new aerial abilities and uses vehicles. They play similarly in the Storybook games too. And in Rivals everyone is the same.

...Metal Sonic pretty quickly got changed up faster than Shadow. Both overall are designed to be counterparts to Sonic, though. Both make sense as an Echo in their own way. One thing to note is Metal Sonic is not always the same weight, where Shadow is supposed to be. He's only slightly faster and stronger than Sonic, but Metal Sonic actually is faster and stronger generally, and it's only in the Sonic CD-based movie(the OVA) and some animations that he's "identical". Overall, Shadow is actually more similar.


That's not correct. That's literally in Adventure 2(which Sonic has more abilities anyway), and the two Sonic Rivals game. Storybook games too(multiplayer), but I didn't get Shadow in Black Knight so I can't speak on that.

  • Sonic Battle has them both with different movsets and abilities. He's not actually a clone even with the similar stats. The only clones are Emerl(base version, to Sonic), Phi(able to copy every character, much like Emerl technically can), Ultimate Emerl(of Sonic, again, though stands out with exaggerated abilities), and a metal guard(I forgot its name, but a clone of Gamma).
  • Heroes has classes, but every single character has their own unique solo moves. So this is incorrect.
  • 06 has similar moves for a lot of characters, but nobody plays exactly the same in any case. Shadow has unique aerials and vehicles. Sonic doesn't have these aerials and instead has a ridiculous speed section.
  • Storybook games' multiplayer is correct, though. ...Black Knight I can't say, as I noted above.
  • Sonic Rivals they are legit clones. Everybody plays the same.

That's it for core games(or at least are part of the main set of stories. Rivals is kind of odd since it relates to Rush and 06, but could be considered non-canon). Otherwise, the Racing Spin-Offs rarely deviate characters from each other outside of Sonic R. They're at most "class types" like Heroes, but they do play differently due to power/speed differences. I don't remember how the Olympic games are, though. Sonic and Shadow are the same category. But I think some have slightly different stats??
"Main series." Sonic Battle and Olympic Games don't count.
 

DarthEnderX

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And only hardcore Mario fans know who Geno is.
Only hardcore Fire Emblem fans know who Corrin is.
Only hardcore Nintendo fans in general know who Ice Climbers are.
All characters that shouldn't be Fighters in Smash. But also all 1st party characters, so the bar to get in is faaaaar lower.

Silver and Rouge are not in that camp.
They absolutely are. Stop being a delusional fanboy.
 
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BlondeLombax

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And only hardcore Mario fans know who Geno is.
I've been a Mario fan all my life, and if I may be honest? Super Mario RPG just doesn't interest me all that much. It's not the game themselves, it's me. That's why I'm curious as to why Geno is such a popular pick.
Yeah for the record... Silver is generally pretty popular as his character got saved in later games.

Silver being disliked is really only due to one boss fight. He's generally liked elsewhere.
The rival battle in Generations was probably the one fight I played over and over again the most when I first played that game. It's absolutely awesome.
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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They dislike Sonic 06, not Silver.
And only hardcore Mario fans know who Geno is.
Only hardcore Fire Emblem fans know who Corrin is.
Only hardcore Nintendo fans in general know who Ice Climbers are.
Silver and Rouge are not in that camp.
That belongs to characters like Bark, Bean, Fang, E-102 Gamma, Mighty, Ray, etc.
Silver is honestly not that popular. He's not as hated as before, though.

Gamma is actually in the more popular category, though. He's one of the core playable characters in a popular game, and returned in Battle, though that's also why using parts that Omega used, but he's still one of the big returning characters. Big is actually very notable for a similar reason. Mighty, Ray, Bean, and Fang are in the lesser known category. It helps that Big was rescued in Heroes and later on the only good point about the Sonic RPG game to fans. He turned from a derp to a snarky awesome guy.

"Main series." Sonic Battle and Olympic Games don't count.
Sonic Battle is the main series. It's part of the core storyline. It most definitely counts. It's a gameplay spin-off, but is part of the Dreamcast Saga in terms of storyline. It happens after Shadow and Heroes(Chaos Gamma is actually cited as a combination of Gamma and Omega's parts). Rush is also 100% canon and Blaze's origin. 06, incidentally, is canonically Silver's origin. Rivals is debatable on canon(namely cause 06 is Silver's origin, but that's literally the only thing that makes it questionable. And we know 06's story was written out, meaning Rivals can still be the first game where Silver meets the other Heroes due to one timeline being erased. That's why it's debatable. Origins and "met in the timeline" are two different things).

Doesn't change my point that only in Adventure 2 do they play exactly the same. Rivals otherwise if you count it. Really, you're missing the entire point and ignoring it intentionally now. You're wrong that Shadow plays the same as Sonic in all the core games. Does that mean he doesn't work as an Echo? No. He does. So does Metal Sonic. But they're the only two who legit started off as true Sonic clones(for different reasons), but still deviated in multiple core games.

To clarify, the Dreamcast Saga goes in this order canonically(and these are the core games that tell the story); Adventure 1 -> Adventure 2 -> Advance 1 -> Advance 2 -> Heroes -> Shadow -> Battle -> Advance 3 -> Rush -> Rush Adventure -> 06. 06 is an oddball that it has Blaze in it, but she is only shown with Silver, and the others don't meet her. It's possible it happens before Rush and Rush Adventure, but those are the ones that might be slightly different in the timeline itself. It's been unclear at that point. Rivals mucks it up further too. Since it's supposed to be part of the same storyline. It'd have to take place among the same timing as Rush/Adventure and 06 to make any lick of sense. The timey-wimey ball and timeline being erased is what's awkward. It's probably just the same order as I mentioned, but with Rivals and Rivals 2 happening after 06. Everything before Rush is exactly that, though.
 
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