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Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

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N3ON

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Discussing the term echo fighter.

We've a actually cycled back to prerelease discussion.
I'm happy I get to post the exact same stuff I was posting about it three years ago lol

The worst thing about echoes and the sudden acceptance of them is that they're blatantly the worst clones in the franchise and the new echo moniker means they'll never be decloned, as shown with Pittoo and Lasoona. Makes you really miss Brawl's clones when two of the echoes are just glorified alt costumes.

The water is further muddied by Isabelle existing as the old type of clone and still somehow going under the radar,
I think the term just being implemented to make them more palatable is further exemplified by returning clones like Young Link and Pichu not getting echo'd... because they were under the umbrella of characters people were happy to see back, and thus didn't need ameliorating optics.

And yes, I know they are different than Pikachu and Link and it can be justified why they didn't label them as such. But echoes range from everything from near replicas like Daisy and Richter to characters with actual unique aspects like Chrom and Ken. It's a loose term. They could've feasibly extended it to older clones as well if they saw fit.
 

7NATOR

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Well, i don't know **** about overwatch, so you'll have to explain me that.
Shadow did not invent Time powers and neither did Tracer.

Neither of them invented guns either.
View attachment 300189
... how in the **** are they related?
Shadow and Tracer both have Abilities that revolve around Time

While ultimately how they use it is Different, and they are completely different characters otherwise, I don't see them adding 2 Characters that focus on Time Abilities. Ultimately I do think they want to make the Passes as distinct as Possible from all angles, including moveset

Control over time isn't something that's as Normal like wielding a Sword, It's very specific.

If they were in different passes, or Different games, it would be all good, but not in the Same pass
 

JamesDNaux

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I think the term just being implemented to make them more palatable is further exemplified by returning clones like Young Link and Pichu not getting echo'd... because they were under the umbrella of characters people were happy to see back, and thus didn't need ameliorating optics.

And yes, I know they are different than Pikachu and Link and it can be justified why they didn't label them as such. But echoes range from everything from near replicas like Daisy and Richter to characters with actual unique aspects like Chrom and Ken. It's a loose term. They could've feasibly extended it to older clones as well if they saw fit.
Yink and Pichu couldn't fit the echo umbrella because of their different body shapes, which is the only unifying factor across every echo, and probably why Isabelle wasn't one. Which only begs the question as to why Doc wasn't an echo. Or better yet, a costume.
 

Icedragonadam

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Yink and Pichu couldn't fit the echo umbrella because of their different body shapes, which is the only unifying factor across every echo, and probably why Isabelle wasn't one. Which only begs the question as to why Doc wasn't an echo. Or better yet, a costume.
Melee legacy
 

7NATOR

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What I think Separates the Echoes from the other clones is Two Things

-Similar Body types (though it's not exclusive to regular clones, like for example Lucas)
-The ability to only be balanced against the Parent Fighter

The 2nd Point I think is the most important for why Echoes don't take as much time as regular fighter, and what seperates them from Regular Clones and Regular Fighters. Balancing takes a long time, and having to do that against a large cast of characters that is ever expanding is quite a task. Balancing against only 1 fighter really shaves off alot of time.
 

N3ON

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Yink and Pichu couldn't fit the echo umbrella because of their different body shapes, which is the only unifying factor across every echo, and probably why Isabelle wasn't one. Which only begs the question as to why Doc wasn't an echo. Or better yet, a costume.
The echo umbrella is whatever Nintendo wants it to be. Until Chrom people thought it would be near-exact clones.

Any clone could be put under the echo umbrella if Nintendo wanted them to be put there. It's arbitrary where they drew the line in the sand, because the term echo doesn't actually mean anything specific, past one character being derivative of another. They could've drawn it to incorporate Pichu and Yink. The could've drawn it to incorporate the semi-clones.

That's the beauty of the term. It's poorly defined, but cool sounding. It's the "blast processing" of Smash. It works as Nintendo sees fit.
 

JamesDNaux

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Melee legacy
Where's the Wii U legacy for the only two echoes not introduced in Ultimate?

Again, I kinda wish Melee had more time because, if I were Sakurai, I would've experimented just a teeny bit more and added Scizor and Ayumi Tachibana instead of Dr. Mario and Pichu.
Good thing you aren't Sakurai. :4pacman:
 

Cutie Gwen

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Again, I kinda wish Melee had more time because, if I were Sakurai, I would've experimented just a teeny bit more and added Scizor and Ayumi Tachibana instead of Dr. Mario and Pichu.
Considering his reasons for not including Ayumi had nothing to do with time constraints I'm fairly certain she wouldn't have made it even if Melee wasn't rushed
 

Idon

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Again, I kinda wish Melee had more time because, if I were Sakurai, I would've experimented just a teeny bit more and added Scizor and Ayumi Tachibana instead of Dr. Mario and Pichu.
If Melee had "a bit" more time, we'd be getting Wario and not much else.
 

ForsakenM

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Technically, one can't demonstrably say that characters who are DLC costumes or spirits are 100% deconfirmed. That is true. But acting like it means nothing either is ultimately less sensible, when evidence and reason point strongly in the favour of the roles being basically mutually exclusive.

One is taking a substantiated conclusion and treating it empirically. Not technically correct, but logically understandable. The other is ignoring virtually the entirety of the landscape to remind people of a minute possibility within a minute possibility. It's basically the "so you're saying there's a chance" meme.



I guess it's better than complaining about them but jeez it makes people look dumb, lol.
Actually, there is more evidence towards it being wrong than being right, purely by way of the narratives being pushed by the Smash community at large ALWAYS being proven wrong.

This same logic was used for Spirits, and you all SWORE up and down that no character who was a base-game Spirit could EVER get in as playable and wrote of thousands of characters...and then you were wrong. This happened before about characters from rival companies, irrelevant characters, and characters that even the main developer himself in the past said couldn't happen but then did. If anything, Smash itself is proof of inevitability and change, and of proving it's own community wrong. Remember when Smash would never get DLC because old-fashioned Nintendo? Remember when Cloud was impossible? How many times do you have to use logic that gets proven wrong before you decide to take a different approach?

Besides, as I've stated way too many times now, none of this logic matters due to DLC still being in play and because of Sakurai's own words. Sakurai HEAVILY considered Spring Man being the chosen ARMS character before going with Min Min, even though he was a spirit, costume and an AT. Let me try and break down what that means in simple terms.

It means that no prior form of content for a character is a valid reason for them to not become playable in the future. In other words, every fan rule about content in the game is already destroyed, and it already was before Min Min because so long as more content is negotiated for things can change. RE could get a character in a FP3 even though they had a spirit event, because what was planned then and what can be done now are two separate things.

If anything, there is more evidence to substantiate that whatever narrative the Smash community at large is pushing at the time is likely going to be booty-blasted into orbit, since they have been nothing but wrong.

Now a more accurate assumption would be 'If a costume shows up in this pass, they likely don't have plans for that character currently, but that could change later' which I completely agree with...except returning costumes don't fit this narrative, only new ones. Old costumes are just recycled content to make another seventy-five cents with minimal effort, adding the least amount of touch-ups so that it is at least worth spending some money on to a consumer. They get shoved in wherever they can fit them, and it's VERY clear they plan on returning them all and that they always planned on them all returning from the beginning. Thus, if you already planned for all these costumes to return via DLC early in development, why would that stop you from negotiating to make them playable later on, ESPECIALLY if they can make you even more money? You wouldn't, and thus old costumes imply nothing but an easy cash in.

New costumes imply that they currently have no plans to make that character playable this time around due to the effort to make new assets, but the future is still open, and arguably Deluxe/Premium Costumes imply no future intent for that character which is why such a costume I believe is the most difficult scenario. None of this applies to Geno nor Waluigi, Paper Mario has nothing but a couple of PNGs blocking his way, and considering the evidence of high chances of more big Mario announcements it makes sense for one to start to entertain the possibility of a Mario character coming to Smash soon.
 

Cutie Gwen

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Actually, there is more evidence towards it being wrong than being right, purely by way of the narratives being pushed by the Smash community at large ALWAYS being proven wrong.

This same logic was used for Spirits, and you all SWORE up and down that no character who was a base-game Spirit could EVER get in as playable and wrote of thousands of characters...and then you were wrong. This happened before about characters from rival companies, irrelevant characters, and characters that even the main developer himself in the past said couldn't happen but then did. If anything, Smash itself is proof of inevitability and change, and of proving it's own community wrong. Remember when Smash would never get DLC because old-fashioned Nintendo? Remember when Cloud was impossible? How many times do you have to use logic that gets proven wrong before you decide to take a different approach?

Besides, as I've stated way too many times now, none of this logic matters due to DLC still being in play and because of Sakurai's own words. Sakurai HEAVILY considered Spring Man being the chosen ARMS character before going with Min Min, even though he was a spirit, costume and an AT. Let me try and break down what that means in simple terms.

It means that no prior form of content for a character is a valid reason for them to not become playable in the future. In other words, every fan rule about content in the game is already destroyed, and it already was before Min Min because so long as more content is negotiated for things can change. RE could get a character in a FP3 even though they had a spirit event, because what was planned then and what can be done now are two separate things.

If anything, there is more evidence to substantiate that whatever narrative the Smash community at large is pushing at the time is likely going to be booty-blasted into orbit, since they have been nothing but wrong.

Now a more accurate assumption would be 'If a costume shows up in this pass, they likely don't have plans for that character currently, but that could change later' which I completely agree with...except returning costumes don't fit this narrative, only new ones. Old costumes are just recycled content to make another seventy-five cents with minimal effort, adding the least amount of touch-ups so that it is at least worth spending some money on to a consumer. They get shoved in wherever they can fit them, and it's VERY clear they plan on returning them all and that they always planned on them all returning from the beginning. Thus, if you already planned for all these costumes to return via DLC early in development, why would that stop you from negotiating to make them playable later on, ESPECIALLY if they can make you even more money? You wouldn't, and thus old costumes imply nothing but an easy cash in.

New costumes imply that they currently have no plans to make that character playable this time around due to the effort to make new assets, but the future is still open, and arguably Deluxe/Premium Costumes imply no future intent for that character which is why such a costume I believe is the most difficult scenario. None of this applies to Geno nor Waluigi, Paper Mario has nothing but a couple of PNGs blocking his way, and considering the evidence of high chances of more big Mario announcements it makes sense for one to start to entertain the possibility of a Mario character coming to Smash soon.
I know you're only arguing this because you want Geno but out of curiosity, what costumes do you think are likely to get promoted outside of Geno?
 

DarthEnderX

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This is why they created the term. Because of all you dopes who would rather buy a "pre-owned vehicle" than a "used car". :p:p
I think a lot of it has to do with expectation.

Previously, when clones were introduced, they were introduced in the same way as regular characters. So there's a huge disappointment there when you think you're getting a real character, and it's just a glorified skin instead.

But when they say "And now, here's a new Echo fighter:" you know exactly what you're getting.

The echo umbrella is whatever Nintendo wants it to be. Until Chrom people thought it would be near-exact clones.
And I honestly think Sakurai's own definition changed DURING development.

Lucina, Dark Pit, Daisy and Richter? Almost identical to their sources.

Chrom and Ken? Some pretty significant differences. Like, with them being Echoes, it really doesn't make sense that Dr. Mario isn't. And I wouldn't be surprised if they maybe started out not intending to actually be labeled Echoes.

Again, I kinda wish Melee had more time because, if I were Sakurai, I would've experimented just a teeny bit more and added Scizor and Ayumi Tachibana instead of Dr. Mario and Pichu.
And I kinda wish Melee had more time because, if I were Sakurai, I would've experimented just a teeny bit more and given Gandondorf and Falco unique movesets instead of adding Dr. Mario, Pichu, Young Link and Roy.

personally I don't want Shadow as a Sonic echo
Fine, he stays trapped as an AT then.

he has more than enough unique abilities to be his own fighter
So do Ken and Dark Samus. They're still Echoes.
 
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BlondeLombax

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personally I don't want Shadow as a Sonic echo, he has more than enough unique abilities to be his own fighter
This is why I‘ve been saying Metal Sonic would work better as Sonic’s echo. Besides, it fits in with the lore; while Shadow’s resemblance to Sonic’s looks and capabilities are purely coincidental, Metal was literally made to surpass Sonic in every imaginable way.
 

SnowClaws

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It been a hour, and since no one have posted it, I guess I will do it:

Here, the Dragalia Lost X Persona 5 Scramble: The Phantom Strikers crossover event preview.


Link to the JP version here, since there is voice acting in that version. Also, Euden for Smash.
 
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NintenRob

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Another little game:
There was a problem fetching the tweet
My picks are:
  1. Eggman
  2. Cinderace
  3. King Boo
  4. Arle
  5. Bandana Dee
  6. Either Sora or Crash
Hmmm lets see.

1. I probably would have said Tails, but with Sephiroth I'd lean more towards Eggman
2. Hard to say, at this point probably Eevee. Don't want another Starter, nothing from gen 8 stands out and Eevee has done a lot.
3. King Boo is No. 3 most wanted very easily. Easy choice
4. Obviously Arle? Why is this here?
5. Bandana Dee, this was a very easy choice. 2nd Most Wanted
6. Skull Kid. My no1 most wanted and would add another Zelda character and give us decent Majora's Mask music which we lack.
 

Cosmic77

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Another little game:
There was a problem fetching the tweet
My picks are:
  1. Eggman
  2. Cinderace
  3. King Boo
  4. Arle
  5. Bandana Dee
  6. Either Sora or Crash
Sonic: Tails/Knuckles/Shadow/Eggman (no real preference; I like them all)
Pokémon: Zacian
Mario: Paper Mario
Puyo Puyo: Arle Nadja
Kirby: Bandana Waddle Dee
Any character: Mipha (Not my most wanted, but I really want another Zelda rep. Liked her in BotW and AoC, so why not?)

TBH I probably would've said most of these characters even without the guidelines. They're in ny signature, so...
 
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ZelDan

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The whole problem with them making a playable character out of a paid DLC costume is that, well, it would be kind of a **** move to do that.

Sakurai/Nintendo: "Hey, here's a Geno Mii costume. If you want to have some way of playing as Geno or atleast something that looks like him, give us your money!"

Customer: "Whelp, I guess I just go ahead and buy the Geno costume then..."

Sakurai/Nintendo: "SIKE! We are going to make geno playable now, give us your money for Geno again!"

Customer: "Wait, WTF!? If they were going to make Geno playable in the end I wouldn't even have bought the Geno Mii costume in the first place!"
 
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Commander_Alph

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The whole problem with them making a playable character out of a paid DLC costume is that, well, it would be kind of a **** move to do that.

Sakurai/Nintendo: "Hey, here's a Geno Mii costume. If you want to have some way of playing as Geno or atleast something that looks like him, give us your money!"

Customer: "Whelp, I guess I just go ahead and buy the Geno costume then..."

Sakurai/Nintendo: "SIKE! We are going to make geno playable now, give us your money for Geno again!"

Customer: "Wait, WTF!? If they were going to make Geno playable in the end I wouldn't even have bought the Geno Mii costume in the first place!"
I like that this is the only instance that everyone would be happy spending another buck on a character that they already promised to get a better chance next time as they are now a cosmetic. Everyone is pretty much happy to get bamboozled at this point.


ahem*Rex*ahem
 
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Golden Icarus

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Lucina, Dark Pit, Daisy and Richter? Almost identical to their sources.

Chrom and Ken? Some pretty significant differences. Like, with them being Echoes, it really doesn't make sense that Dr. Mario isn't. And I wouldn't be surprised if they maybe started out not intending to actually be labeled Echoes.
I’m pretty sure the only reason they didn’t want to label Dr. Mario as an echo was to emphasize the few changes he got for Ultimate (back throw, down air, side b). And they went back and labelled Dark Pit and Lucina as echoes because they didn’t intend on making any noticeable changes to them.

I’ll be real, I’m generally very positive towards all of the changes made in Ultimate, but the term echo still bothers me. I understand what they’re going for and it seems like it was well recieved, but the vague definition really irks me. Especially with the roster being arranged in the order of every character’s debut. Lucina being placed on the roster next to Marth instead of Robin (the character she literally shared a trailer with) is the most mildly infuriating thing ever.
 

Idon

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Some things in life are just not fair and your favorite character not being included in your favorite fighting game is one of them. It can happen to anyone. Better to accept it now then continaully be disappointed 3 more times.
 
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Cutie Gwen

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The whole problem with them making a playable character out of a paid DLC costume is that, well, it would be kind of a **** move to do that.

Sakurai/Nintendo: "Hey, here's a Geno Mii costume. If you want to have some way of playing as Geno or atleast something that looks like him, give us your money!"

Customer: "Whelp, I guess I just go ahead and buy the Geno costume then..."

Sakurai/Nintendo: "SIKE! We are going to make geno playable now, give us your money for Geno again!"

Customer: "Wait, WTF!? If they were going to make Geno playable in the end I wouldn't even have bought the Geno Mii costume in the first place!"
It's not scummy as nobody would mind spending 75 cents on a costume before getting the character, the issue is that we know for a fact these are meant to be consolation prizes meaning it makes no sense to give a consolation prize alongside the big prize.
 

ZephyrZ

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The worst thing about echoes and the sudden acceptance of them is that they're blatantly the worst clones in the franchise and the new echo moniker means they'll never be decloned, as shown with Pittoo and Lasoona. Makes you really miss Brawl's clones when two of the echoes are just glorified alt costumes.

The water is further muddied by Isabelle existing as the old type of clone and still somehow going under the radar,
Or if they really wanted to declone one of them, they could just remove the "echo" label in the future. Even then Ken shows that a character can still be quite a bit different from their counterpart and still hold the echo tag. It's just branding and "echo fighter" means whatever the devs want it to mean.

Of course, I really doubt "make Dark Pit a unique character" is really that high on anyone but the most diehard KI:U fan's to do list. I mean fine I'm a diehard KI:U fan to, but from a realistic viewpoint I don't think Dark Pit is worth any more effort then he's already received.
 

ZelDan

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It's not scummy as nobody would mind spending 75 cents on a costume before getting the character, the issue is that we know for a fact these are meant to be consolation prizes meaning it makes no sense to give a consolation prize alongside the big prize.
75 cents isn't really much, sure, and a good chunk of Geno fans might not care, but it would still be them trying to get extra money out of Geno fans that they wouldn't have otherwise gotten if they just showed the playable character first.

maybe not that big a deal in the grand scheme of things, and I personally wouldn't really give that much of a crap (Geno is whatever to me in general), but still,even if it isn't all that scummy it is kind of a silly way of going about things.
 
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PSIGuy

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Echoes are glorified alternate palettes in terms of implementation, just as Lucina and Dark Pit were. The name doesn't refer to the amount of changes made, just how they were made. Yes, some have more differences. But for all his bells and whistles, Ken is still using Ryu's skeleton and the majority of his animations. It really is just a branding thing - it deflects criticism while also giving them license to make as many or few changes as they wish.
Not that I give a rat's ass. Any feature that implements Richter mode is fine by me.
 
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Lamperouge

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I wouldn't mind, but I kind of don't want Tracer since that would imply Shadow is not a DLC Character...
Tracer is the least of Shadow's concerns for him being playable. I feel like the assist trophy and the unlikelihood that SEGA would include a second Sonic character as DLC over their other properties are much bigger obstacles.
 

OffBrandANON

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Tracer is the least of Shadow's concerns for him being playable. I feel like the assist trophy and the unlikelihood that SEGA would include a second Sonic character as DLC over their other properties are much bigger obstacles.
now now, i could definitely see them placing another sonic character at the same importance as another new rep... but, if sega does add a new sonic character, it'd probably be someone like eggman or tails first.
 

osby

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now now, i could definitely see them placing another sonic character at the same importance as another new rep... but, if sega does add a new sonic character, it'd probably be someone like eggman or tails first.
The thing is, SEGA doesn't add characters to Smash.

I think most of us can agree that the biggest thing going for Shadow is his potential borrow moves from Sonic AND his ridiculous popularity which could make him an addition not unlike Ken or Richer.

If Sonic were to get a second, unique character, I can see Tails. Dr. Eggman? Not really. Yeah, he's popular but not to the extent that Shadow or Tails. Hell, Knuckles and Amy beat him in some popularity polls.
 
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OffBrandANON

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The thing is, SEGA doesn't add characters to Smash.

I think most of us can agree that the biggest thing going for Shadow is his potential borrow moves from Sonic AND his ridiculous popularity which could make him an addition not unlike Ken or Richer.

If Sonic were to get a second, unique character, I can see Tails. Dr. Eggman? Not really. Yeah, he's popular but not to the extent that Shadow or Tails. Hell, Knuckles and Amy beat him in some popularity poll.
sorry, yeah i mispoke. i meant, i guess, sega talking with nintendo about them adding, if that makes sense?

the main logic with eggman over shadow is more series importance then direct popularity(he is the main antagonist), and his status as one of the big classic video game villains.
 

Evil Trapezium

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Quick research: does anyone here wants a Overwatch character in smash?
I'd be okay with Bastion because he's a robot with a gun but I know Jeff Kaplan won't be that cool.

Which only begs the question as to why Doc wasn't an echo. Or better yet, a costume.
Because Echo Fighters were made with the intent to be as boring as possible and Dr. Mario is way too interesting to be either an Echo or Costume
 
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