Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[cothero]

There's Dr. Willy castle and New pork city too.
[/QUOTE]

Yes, but those are not playable villains stages. Someone pointed out that Sephiroth is the only playable villain with a stage and that's correct.

 

[N3ON]

W

Well I totally agree with the second part, I can't see someone like Cinderace getting a more excited reaction than Incineroar (who already got mid level reactions). Catch me sleeping if that happens. However about ARMS, I think hate is a bad word that was used but I think the sentiment stands that there's hype for ARMS because now 2 years later since its release, it obviously didn't drum up as much longlasting hype as a game franchise + the Assist Trophy petered down the hype a bit. I think however the ultimate thing that killed the ARMS hype was its reveal.

I just wanna say for the record that I think the ARMS reveal trailer was the WORST reveal Smash has ever done. No not Min Min's reveal trailer, I think that one is pretty good to be quite honest. The initial reveal that a character from ARMS would be joining was painful though. I don't think it even got people talking about ARMS as much as it was talking about the validity of spirits and so on. Also it just kinda ruined the surprise. Perhaps it was COVID or they just didn't want the Byleth backlash and it was planned all along to be like that.

Yeah so I have a strong grievance against how that reveal was done to be honest haha and this has no resentment to Min Min herself moreso how Nintendo chose to announce her eventual coming.

The ARMS announcement made the following few months a chore speculation-wise, but most people who watch reveals don't dive into the discussion as much as we do. Had it not been for that pre-reveal reveal, I think the reaction to an ARMS character would've been a lot more muted.

I mean it wasn't that loud anyway, but people who weren't mad the character wasn't the right colour were mostly happy it was Min Min, whereas otherwise the expectation would've been a big third-party reveal, especially as it was around when E3 happens. Instead their lofty expectations would've been met with a series that people had already been calling "dead", and, a little more fairly, hadn't been subject to any real mindshare since Spring-Man and Ribbon Girl showed up as supporting content.

I can tell you that I would've been a bit underwhelmed. Not upset, just underwhelmed. And I know that many of those of you who don't act like every inclusion was the best possible choice ever would've been as well.

And look what happened with Byleth. Coming off the heels of four third-parties, the vast majority of people expected that trend to continue. Expectations were high, as they always are (yet shouldn't be) for a final character within a group. Many thought it would be Dante, due to the circumstances at the time. Now, much of the blowback was because of it being FE in particular, but ultimately it was probably smart, going forward, to set the expectations as they did ahead of time. Even if they just did it to push the ARMS free trial.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I'm surprised people are even bothering to argue with someone who usually says the exact opposite of the post people are replying to, especially when Mamboo's made it clear he just steals posts from other places and like stirring the pot

 

[MooMew64]

I feel like arguing what is and isn't hype is hard in the first place due to it being a pretty subjective topic. Some people want third parties, while some people want first parties, and honestly? Nothin' wrong with that: Everybody's got their personal preferences for Smash characters.

Looking at our three DLC first party DLC so far, I think they just had the misfortune of not being what most of the core community cares about. Characters like Dixie, almost any Zelda or Mario character, or even a fan favorite Kirby character would definitely generate a ton of buzz in Nintendo circles. Heck, there are still choices like Krystal that would probably appeal to a lot of the Brawl era fans and would get hardcore Nintendo communities really excited.

However, 3rd parties reach beyond that and make headlines, so there's this big event that happens whenever one joins in because it makes people feel like the crossover element of the game has expanded. I can definitely understand why people prefer these kinds of characters if the hype is part of why they enjoy Smash: Reveals like Joker or Steve that make everyone go "WHAT THE HECK DID THEY REALLY JUST DO THAT!?" are just a good time.

 

[ZelDan]

While were on the subject of hype, I think it is important to remember that hype isn't some black and white issue, where characters are either super duper absolutely ultra hype or completely, 100% unhype. just because character A might not be as "hype" as character B is doesn't mean that character A couldn't still be "hype."

 

[DarthEnderX]

I mean virtual reality is still gaming.

Only if your using it to, ya know, play a game.

I'd love to see Poké Floats come back, and I think Volcanic Rim from Street Fighter 4 and Grima's Back from Fire Emblem: Awakening would be great choices.

You know, most SF players hate that stage, but I'll take it anyway if it gets us the best song in SF!

People would pop off for a Gen 8 Pokemon, a Zelda rep that isn't a Triforce trio or Waluigi.

Maybe in the Smash community, but not in general.

There's literally not a single Nintendo character at this point that would generate the kind of hype Steve or Sephiroth got.

I think saying that Captain toad is being "pushed more and more" and is a "Nintendo icon" is a big stretch. His only appearances in the last 5 years (not counting ports) are in Mario maker (as a skin), Mario odyssey and in Mario kart tour.

I think most people still count Captain Toad as Toad. Nintendo is taking the long standing iconicness of Toad, giving him some uniqueness, personality, and his own game. That certainly seems like a push.

 

[Greyfox22]

Alright, a question for y'all:

What stage you want most in the game? Mine is Casino Night Zone from Sonic 2.

View attachment 300043

The funny thing is, i've never been a big Sonic fan, but i used to play Sonic games a lot when i was a kid and i always loved this stage in particular: the music, the layout, the BGM's, it's just perfect to me, can't explain why.

How about yours?

Never even thought about that, but now I NEED CASINO NIGHT ZONE.

Other than that, I`m not the best at thinking of stage ideas. I`d love to see the return of all the stages throughout Smash history. I think Poke-Floats would be especially fun.

 

[SneakyLink]

While were on the subject of hype, I think it is important to remember that hype isn't some black and white issue, where characters are either super duper absolutely ultra hype or completely, 100% unhype. just because character A might not be as "hype" as character B is doesn't mean that character A couldn't still be "hype."

Character hype can also be a effect of personal preferences.
For instance say I would like character A but we instead receive character B. Does this mean character B was not hype for me? No the character is still hype.
The notion of something being on either extreme is a bit odd, but everyone’s game experience is different.
In the end, there is no right or wrong answer for hype, sure some characters are perceived by the community as being of “more or lesser” status, but what matters is how you enjoy a character or their series.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

As far as hype goes, Sephiroth was weird for me because I couldn't have cared less about the character, but he was still one of the most hype reveals in the entire game.

Only if your using it to, ya know, play a game.

Well that's a given considering it's a platform and not a game, but I'm sure the games on it is what they were referring to.

 

[Golden Icarus]

I think most people still count Captain Toad as Toad. Nintendo is taking the long standing iconicness of Toad, giving him some uniqueness, personality, and his own game. That certainly seems like a push.

That’s a good point. The fact that Captain Toad even exists shows the push that Toad is getting. Not only did they take the time to evolve a character that has been around for years, but they also decided to give him his own game. Dude is already tied with Peach for spin-off games.

Character hype can also be a effect of personal preferences.
For instance say I would like character A but we instead receive character B. Does this mean character B was not hype for me? No the character is still hype.
The notion of something being on either extreme is a bit odd, but everyone’s game experience is different.
In the end, there is no right or wrong answer for hype, sure some characters are perceived by the community as being of “more or lesser” status, but what matters is how you enjoy a character or their series.

I feel like timing is a big part of it as well. Byleth could have gotten a much better reaction if they didn’t have to follow up four major third party characters, two of which happen to also be JRPG protagonists.

 

[Greyfox22]

I'm thinking that the last 3 DLC fighters will be 3rd party reps.

(I'll say it again: First Party aka Nintendo reps don't bring much hype and would be kind of disappointing.)

On a personal level I kind of agree, but that`s mostly because all of my first party wishes have already been added and at this point, I can`t really think of any other in-house characters I`d get really really hyped up for.

In general, I don`t think that`s true. There are tons of popular first-party characters that I think a lot of people would get hyped for. Also, like a few people already said, characters aren`t exclusively divided into "hype" and "not-hype." There are a lot of variations between how people act towards dlc additions based on preference, wants, knowledge of certain characters, etc. I can't say a single dlc character didn't receive "hype" to some extent, even the often-maligned Byleth.

For example, I'd have a pretty luke-warm reaction if Waluigi got added, but I know some people would absolutely lose their ****.

 

[Louie G.]

I still cling onto many of my far-flung, niche first party wishes that I will very openly admit are not traditionally "hype" choices... but would hopefully win people over with their distinct creativity / character and the content they provide. Chorus Kids, Lip, Mach Rider, Captain Syrup, Porky...

The fact of the matter is though, the climate we're in right now heavily favors third parties and I can't imagine many first parties garnering a super enthusiastic reaction aside from general lukewarm positivity like Min Min (and even then, I see so many people saying they don't like her now). I've always been somewhat of a "Nintendo first" guy, but I've loosened up and gotten a good look at the bigger picture. The series has evolved beyond the point where many of the first party characters I want would be considered worthwhile. It makes me a bit sad but it's just how it is.

Just because a character isn't a "hype pick" doesn't mean that nobody is hyped about them. It's all subjective, but I think there's a pretty clear metric of what can generally be considered a widely exciting choice. I think people may weigh this a little too heavily to be like, are they saying my MW character isn't hype? Well like, on my front, I really want Arle and I recognize that if she makes it a lot of people will be scratching their heads wondering what a Puyo Puyo is and left underwhelmed at a cutesy magic schoolgirl instead of their badass gunslinger or nostalgic golden boy.

I mean, I was hyped about Min Min. I'd be hyped about a bunch of random Nintendo IPs that nobody gives a **** about anymore. 99% of people are not worried about whether or not Panel de Pon will finally get a playable character. They care about major collaborations, big names, and what's currently hot. And Nintendo cares about what sells - or when it comes to first parties what will sell their games. So in a lot of ways it really feels like the age of the traditional first party is kind of over with. But it's also clear that not every choice needs to be an absolute gangbuster.

 

[GoodGrief741]

That's a good point. It'd kind of be like a slightly lesser form of Kirby (since I don't think they'd make every single character yield a different item) where seeing all of the stuff you can steal is a treat. Cloud and Sephiroth could yield Materia, which is both a neat reference to the magic system of Final Fantasy VII and a wacky scenario where a GTA character can now cast a spell.


Well, I may not be all that well versed in the series, but I personally don't really see the issue of removing swearing from the dialogue so long as it still feels natural for the character. They can still speak in a crude manner otherwise, which would set them apart from the rest of the (generally) well-mannered cast. The drugs aspect is probably the biggest to omit, but I think you can still get across that the character is not a role model through other means. The guns are likely very necessary, but they might even be OK. It's a bit unclear how they affect the age rating, but it does seem to at least be much better than it was even in the previous game. The gang and the crime stuff would probably be the major focus, both within the character's moveset, and the stage. I think they could add it without much difficulty so long as the crimes don't get too heinous.

As for the sex, it doesn't even make sense in this context because it's all fighting. They also don't strike me as characters that would be into most of the roster, even the females. Of all the things to omit I think this would be the least offensive to fans.


You mean too western in appeal? That might be fair, but I don't think simply being owned by a western company is as big of a barrier to entry as people think.

Lara Croft's moveset wouldn't be inherently boring. In fact, her fighting style is pretty distinct from other characters, even other shooting based ones, and that's not even taking her reboot stuff into account. She may not be overly flashy, but there's no way that there's not enough interesting material for her to have a fun and unique moveset.

Fun GTA fact: only the protagonists of GTA V do drugs, none of the other games have that as an option. Build a drug empire? Sure. But not use. So that's actually not a problem if they wanted to represent GTA.

 

[7NATOR]

I think 1st Parties will at least Always Dominate the Base roster of Smash games, since there's not as much that goes into adding a Nintendo owned character compared to 3rd parties.

Nintendo is gonna need heavy hitters for whenever the Next Smash game is, So the Base roster would be appealing and get people to buy the game, so people are more willing to buy the exciting DLC. Since there way more access to 1st parties, Nintendo will use their own characters to stack the roster, So I think there will always be traditional 1st parties, I just don't think we will see too much of that in DLC

 

[shinhed-echi]

At this point I firmly believe 1st party characters are being saved for next installment in the series.
Only ones considered for DLC are most likely promotional picks for Switch 1st party games.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Obviously this means the next fighter is 100% guaranteed to be first party

 

[SpectreJordan]

Obviously this means the next fighter is 100% guaranteed to be first party

Mipha time babyyyy, fish waifu with cool trident moves.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

Mipha time babyyyy, fish waifu with cool trident moves.

Nope you're getting Daruk instead. Nintendo only adds characters no one asked for.

 

[StarBot]

Is it true Min Min is somehow the most hated character in Japan?

 

[Pillow]

Fun GTA fact: only the protagonists of GTA V do drugs, none of the other games have that as an option. Build a drug empire? Sure. But not use. So that's actually not a problem if they wanted to represent GTA.

Not on screen maybe, but they most of the protagonists were definitely crushing some fat lines on the side when the player wasn't looking.

At this point I firmly believe 1st party characters are being saved for next installment in the series.
Only ones considered for DLC are most likely promotional picks for Switch 1st party games.

If we're following the "trend" of 1st party DLC's so far, then sure yeah. Though that's only a pattern established by 2 characters so I still wouldn't say this for certain. That would really only leave Rex or an 8th gen pokemon as options (Technically Astral Chain too I suppose).

Is it true Min Min is somehow the most hated character in Japan?

I heard she is, though it's not so much her character as it his her gameplay. Kind of like why Bayonetta was hated in Smash 4 despite being a popular pick before her inclusion, but to a much lesser degree.

 

[Idon]

Is it true Min Min is somehow the most hated character in Japan?

Competitively speaking, yes. She has the greatest amounts of dislikes per video on any tournament video.

As a character though she's quite popular and gets showered in fanart.

 

[Speed Weed]

I'd still pop off for quite a lot of first-party characters, it's just that I don't think 90% of the ones I like currently have a chance

 

[BlondeLombax]

Yes, but those are not playable villains stages. Someone pointed out that Sephiroth is the only playable villain with a stage and that's correct.

Y'Know, considering how often he takes it over, you could argue that Hyrule Castle could be considered Ganondorf's stage in hindsight. Same applies to Dedede and the Fountain of Dreams or (if you really wanna get technical (or just grasp for straws like I've been doing this entire post)) Bowser Jr. & Rainbow Cruise (the Airship theme is the second song on its tracklist).

 

[YoshiandToad]

Alright, a question for y'all:

What stage you want most in the game? Mine is Casino Night Zone from Sonic 2.

View attachment 300043

The funny thing is, i've never been a big Sonic fan, but i used to play Sonic games a lot when i was a kid and i always loved this stage in particular: the music, the layout, the BGM's, it's just perfect to me, can't explain why.

How about yours?

I don't even want Paper Mario particularly(not against him but I want Toad/Captain Toad and Waluigi more) but the battle stage from The Thousand Year Door was perfect in my eyes with the audience jostling in the foreground and cheering the fighters on.

Extra points if Glitz Pit is used if the stage transforms.

 

[Arcanir]

Yes, but those are not playable villains stages. Someone pointed out that Sephiroth is the only playable villain with a stage and that's correct.

I personally would count Norfair for Ridley. It is a more generalized as a stage, but it is also the level most associated with the character as that's the place where you fight him the most between Metroid, ZM, and Super, and no other character has a major connection to it otherwise. So he easily has the best claim to call it home, especially over Samus. You also could count Venom for Wolf since that's the last area you can fight Star Wolf in, though with that one you could argue it's more associated with Andross.

If you count rivals, then Meta Knight has the Halberd as well.

 

[MBRedboy31]

Yes, but those are not playable villains stages. Someone pointed out that Sephiroth is the only playable villain with a stage and that's correct.

Don’t forget that is a villain, even if a very minor one, and that we have multiple Mario stages featuring its natural Warp Pipe home (including one that has it as a stage hazard even if you’re also playing as it.)

 

[True Blue Warrior]

If we're following the "trend" of 1st party DLC's so far, then sure yeah. Though that's only a pattern established by 2 characters so I still wouldn't say this for certain. That would really only leave Rex or an 8th gen pokemon as options (Technically Astral Chain too I suppose).

And Astral Chain and Sword and Shield both got spirit events so they are out.

At this point I firmly believe 1st party characters are being saved for next installment in the series.
Only ones considered for DLC are most likely promotional picks for Switch 1st party games.

The only way I see that being true is if Sakurai knew he was going to work on a new Smash game immediately after DLC ends and thus decides it is better to save some highly requested characters for that game. Besides, it would have made a lot if sense to save Steve as a selling point for the next game as well.

 

[Commander_Alph]

A strange question I want to ask, out of all things that people complain about the Sonic series in Smash is the non-existent New Arrangament songs. To me that sounds picky since we somehow get a music from Forces and Mania which, as far as I know, is a new addition in Ultimate considering that new arrangament is basically just the same song with different tunes most of the time being from an old game?

 

[Wunderwaft]

Is it true Min Min is somehow the most hated character in Japan?

Yes, but that's from the competitive side of things. I imagine that once offline tournaments come back to the rest of the world Min Min's infamy in Japan would spread to other competitive scenes.

 

[Wings000]

I'm seeing Min Min in like top 15 from some players.

It's already started.

 

[Dinoman96]

I do feel like there is a point in how Nintendo really has devalued excitement and interest in their own characters, especially for DLC characters, because they seemingly won't even bother adding most of the characters people in the Smash community actually want, like Dixie, Waluigi, Isaac, etc

It's just a little hard to feel enthusiasm for first parties at this point when our best shot for one is like...Cinderace.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

I do feel like there is a point in how Nintendo really has devalued excitement and interest in their own characters, especially for DLC characters, because they seemingly won't even bother adding most of the characters people in the Smash community actually want, like Dixie, Waluigi, Isaac, etc

It's just a little hard to feel enthusiasm for first parties at this point when our best shot for one is like...Cinderace.

Yeah I think I’m in the same boat. It’s not that Nintendo characters can’t be super hype cause I feel like some of the most beloved announcements this cycle were K. Rool and Ridley. It’s just that the characters that would make people the most happy aren’t feasible. The likelihood of them adding Isaac, Krystal, Bandana Dee, Waluigi, Captain Toad, Dixie Kong, or even Lyn is so minimal that it leaves us wondering why they would choose to add anyone but a 3rd party instead.

They threw a bone to the hardcore fans in a while and gave us K. Rool and Ridley but in the same timeframe also shut down the more popular first party characters that many would like to see. It’s just hard to feel excited for a Nintendo character when our options are decreased to yet another Pokémon or Gooigi. Not saying there aren’t fans of either of those but I wouldn’t say that they’re the long lasting speculation mainstays that we’re hoping for.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Yeah I think I’m in the same boat. It’s not that Nintendo characters can’t be super hype cause I feel like some of the most beloved announcements this cycle were K. Rool and Ridley. It’s just that the characters that would make people the most happy aren’t feasible. The likelihood of them adding Isaac, Krystal, Bandana Dee, Waluigi, Captain Toad, Dixie Kong, or even Lyn is so minimal that it leaves us wondering why they would choose to add anyone but a 3rd party instead.

They threw a bone to the hardcore fans in a while and gave us K. Rool and Ridley but in the same timeframe also shut down the more popular first party characters that many would like to see. It’s just hard to feel excited for a Nintendo character when our options are decreased to yet another Pokémon or Gooigi. Not saying there aren’t fans of either of those but I wouldn’t say that they’re the long lasting speculation mainstays that we’re hoping for.

At the same time, we've failed over and over to correctly guess who's going to join the battle next. Of course, Nintendo isn't deliberately avoiding common predictions, they just have a different train of thought. Not to mention, we've already reached the hype peak that these dev cycles tend to have. It can only go downhill from here if you want them to one-up Steve and Sephiroth in the same pass.

 

[3BitSaurus]

Yeah I think I’m in the same boat. It’s not that Nintendo characters can’t be super hype cause I feel like some of the most beloved announcements this cycle were K. Rool and Ridley. It’s just that the characters that would make people the most happy aren’t feasible. The likelihood of them adding Isaac, Krystal, Bandana Dee, Waluigi, Captain Toad, Dixie Kong, or even Lyn is so minimal that it leaves us wondering why they would choose to add anyone but a 3rd party instead.

They threw a bone to the hardcore fans in a while and gave us K. Rool and Ridley but in the same timeframe also shut down the more popular first party characters that many would like to see. It’s just hard to feel excited for a Nintendo character when our options are decreased to yet another Pokémon or Gooigi. Not saying there aren’t fans of either of those but I wouldn’t say that they’re the long lasting speculation mainstays that we’re hoping for.

I'd like to add that not only are many fan favorites considered unfeasible as of now, but so are most curveballs.

Sure, you can argue that , or are definitely not for everyone, but it at least showed their willingness to delve deeper for interesting concepts or movesets. The fact that our curveball pick of Ultimate was another Mario character speaks volumes of how this attitude has changed.

So when both the fan favorites and the surprise "wth" picks are thought to have low chances and the only discussed picks are games launched since Volume 1 released, all the while we've been getting 3rd party fan requests AND off-the-wall picks... yeah, no wonder people aren't that open to first parties anymore.

 

[Deleted member]

There's Dr. Willy castle and New pork city too.


Yes, but those are not playable villains stages. Someone pointed out that Sephiroth is the only playable villain with a stage and that's correct.

You know, it's wild that out of all villains, Bowser doesn't have his own stage. I mean, you'd think Bowser's Castle would be one of the first things they would think up given its a staple of Mario & Mario kart games.

 

[SKX31]

Is it true Min Min is somehow the most hated character in Japan?

Amongst the competitive scene there, yes. Purely from a gameplay perspective, there's no real vitriol against the character herself:

It's partly because Min Min's really good at doing damage / follow ups etc. in a really non-commital way. Some strengths can also be opressive: outside of her ledge-trapping, she can double jump backwards or forwards instantly after using an ARM attack. Thus allowing her to either escape or follow up after an ARM attack.

Japan's competitive scene is also generally more patient than the American / European ones, and the Japanese scene features a lot more of the roster regularily. So I wouldn't be surprised if many Japanese players / viewers are worried about her gameplay being very polarizing vs. a large chunk of the cast. Yes, she's vurnerable when she's opened up and she seemingly doesn't have good answers diagonally below her (outside of Nair), but the strengths are still very much there.

Sonic's gameplay was very much hated in a similar manner amongst Western competitive players (with a similar dislikes to likes ratio regularily), especially when people first moved to online play en masse.

Larry Lurr posted a video about it here. While he by his own admission doesn't know everything about the character, he does show a lot of reasons why (granted, cherry picked matches where the Min Min player wins, but still).

FTR, I don't think she's super-broken or anything like that - she does seem to be really good still, and at least high tier if not borderline top. The issue is with her having really polarized matchups (as flimsy as the term matchup can be). If I had to nerf her it'd be a small nerf to the ARMS' shield damage or a minor nerf to her CQC attacks' frame data (start-up specifically), so she's still potent but would have to play a teeny bit more carefully. Not both.

At the same time, we've failed over and over to correctly guess who's going to join the battle next. Of course, Nintendo isn't deliberately avoiding common predictions, they just have a different train of thought. Not to mention, we've already reached the hype peak that these dev cycles tend to have. It can only go downhill from here if you want them to one-up Steve and Sephiroth in the same pass.

I'm not entirely convinced that will be the case this time around - Cloud was a latecomer, although the difference there is that he was not part of a structured DLC pack or anything like that. OTOH, ARMS was relatively low-key compared to Steve / Sephiroth and started off FP2 (even if ARMS is one of the new Nintendo franchises with high profile).

Don't get me wrong, it's a decently safe bet given Incin / Byleth, but I don't want to call it a guarantee when there's been some inconsistency in that regard.

 

[Dinoman96]

I think there's gonna be at least one more "big" character on the pass, with the last two being more low key.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I'm not entirely convinced that will be the case this time around - Cloud was a latecomer, although the difference there is that he was not part of a structured DLC pack or anything like that. OTOH, ARMS was relatively low-key compared to Steve / Sephiroth and started off FP2 (even if ARMS is one of the new Nintendo franchises with high profile).

Don't get me wrong, it's a decently safe bet given Incin / Byleth, but I don't want to call it a guarantee when there's been some inconsistency in that regard.

I'll admit the guy who made the chart was too biased against Isabelle, to be fair-she still would've been hype to casuals, just not the people Ridley/Belmonts/K. Rool were targeting. I'm sure the next three characters will at least have a million fans, they just won't cover the same people hoping for Crash, Doomguy, Dante etc.

 

[Otoad64]

I think there's gonna be at least one more "big" character on the pass, with the last two being more low key.

how on earth are steve and sephiroth "low key"?

 

[Guynamednelson]

how on earth are steve and sephiroth "low key"?

He's saying the characters AFTER Steve, Sephiroth, and CP9 will be low key.