Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[ForsakenM]

You say this like we couldn't see for ourselves what was going on, like anyone who wasn't an active participant in the Geno thread couldn't still observe its behaviour. Even people who did contribute in the Geno thread are saying its trajectory wasn't solely because of outside influence.

It's along the same vein as when you come in telling us how the fanbase is always mistaken, completely disregarding one of the two sides, as if the fanbase is unilaterally of the same mind on something. If there's any fanbase where that's rarely the case, it's this one.

To be honest, you're not a very reliable chronicler.

I think I'm a bit more reliable than you think, but I will admit I can only be more reliable on making a timeline for the Geno Thread and less about how they treated other threads since I spent most of my time here after the thread got taken down rather than before. However, that makes me even more reliable to be accurate on when things truly got out of hand.

We all have biases, and I've already admitted that Geno fans hyped themselves up a lot and made everything about Geno even when they probably should have been more realistic, but I still haven't seen people in this thread admit that their bias and distaste for talking about the character had an impact on the relationships between the two threads to the point where Geno Fans felt entirely unwelcome here and that warnings were spread that you would get chastised if you said anything good about Geno in here. You guys allowed your irritation to influence interactions and how you responded to people, which in turn did the same for the Geno Thread (whom I think overacted a bit but I also got to experience this first-hand with I think my first post in this thread, so I know it wasn't all made up). I also don't see people here admitting that they took sarcasm and memes literally, which is something that has been done. I also still don't see people admitting that The Plungerer had real information at one point and was just a dude who really loved Geno and got overzealous with some things that were nothing instead of some horrible person trying to manipulate a fan base for unknown vicarious reasons: in other words, he was just like any other Geno Fan in that thread, except he got his hands on information at one point.

Jeez...some things will never change, even with speculation taking a small breather, will it?

Let's try to end this once and for all: If I can admit that Geno Fans hyped themselves too much and whipped themselves into a frenzy that exploded in a horrendous meltdown in Dec of 2020, can YOU admit that forces outside the thread coming in and the attitude of many in this thread to Geno Fans coming here actively pushed them towards digging deeper and anchoring in these over-swelled dreams when people being less antagonistic and responding to them with less irritation and distain in the first place would have lead them to be less justified in their response?

In other words, can you admit it takes two to tango and eight to square dance?

 

[Sucumbio]

I mean... Yes The Geno Support Thread got raided pretty heavy and there were like factions within the thread that either accepted The Gospel According to FMOI or didn't.... I remember clearly having to deal with that crap and I wasn't even in the thread lol just had to keep vigilante due to sheer amount of junk that ensued from all toxicity....

But as for how the posters from this thread behaved and interacted with the Geno thread before and after it was remade well I can't speak to that. Once the thread was remade and the final clamps were put in place to end the hostile environment there, it became just another character support thread. But I'm sure other posters here can vouch for their own behavior during that time.

(why is this important btw? Like is this something that weighs heavily on you ForsakenM ?)

 

[SharkLord]

I mean The Disney part is important to the series, let's be real.
However, the non-argument was that Sora couldn't represent Kingdom Hearts by himself without Disney Stuff. Which is ****ing BS, when you see his gameplay in smash, you just see Sora from KH, not a gutted out version.
I never understood the need of Disney stuff in sora

Speaking as someone who hasn't played Kingdom Hearts but has read up on it a decent amount and listened to some songs, having Disney content was just something I thought would be nice, if only for the sheer hilarity of having Donald and Goofy in Smash. Sadly everything sans the Mickey keychain was censored out beyond the presentation, but eh. It never seemed like a necessity, just a neat little luxury if possible (Which it evidently isn't)

 

[Momotsuki]

I'll preface this by saying that I do find myself sympathetic towards avid Geno supporters. I can totally understand having thought this was his big chance, and not taking it the best seeing him get costumed again, without even so much as a full head. That's ****ed. I get it, and I'm not interested in childish gloating because he didn't make it. Getting burned like that sucks and I'm sorry. If I come off as biased here, that's probably why.

Now, I'm not sure what can really be said about the thread that hasn't been already. I think a lot of people just need to evaluate their behavior and try to manage next cycle better. There were outside instigators but there was also a vocal minority of individuals that felt entitled to be toxic and arrogant about their hopeful, simply because he happens to be a popular request. These same people were also not above stirring drama through naming names.
All we can really do is try not to let things end up that bad again. The blame game is a massive waste of time.

I don't think it was some innate trait of Geno fans specifically that caused the situation. The circumstances that just happened to surround Geno in particular merely brought out the worst in a lot of people - both supporters and detractors - when really, they should have handled it like adults.

Spoiler: TL;DR

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Since I'm currently in the habit of rushing to post my final Speculation pieces about Ultimate, I'm here to hit y'all with another one. I present:

DaybreakHorizon's Smash Ultimate Speculation Essay Tier List​

Spoiler: Table of Contents

Spoiler: 1. Acknowledgements

• I don't have much in the way of acknowledgements for this piece, since it's largely a copy/paste from a Discord essay I wrote, but I would like to acknowledge and sincerely thank y'all for the support I've received for my writing over the last 3 years. I don't think I'd have been able to keep up my writing and critical thinking skills as well as I've been able to if it weren't for this outlet, and it's been fun being able to research and write about different characters over the course of speculation.

Spoiler: 2. Introduction

I've written a lot about Smash Ultimate over the past 3 or so years. To give an approximation, I've written around 50,000 words across 12 major essays and essay series. As a hobbyist writer and essayist, Smash has been my primary outlet since DLC speculation began in December 2018, and I'd like to take this opportunity to reflect a bit on each essay, where I was at when writing them, and how I think they hold up today.

Even though they weren't enough to get me on the Smashboards Writing Team (apparently I didn't provide enough writing samples even though at the time I had like 7 essays in my signature which is literally available on my profile NO I AM NOT MAD), I think this'll be a fun little endeavor.

Also it's like no work at all since I did most of the work last December and posted it to Discord, so I'm essentially just bringing this over here and adding some minor content. Low effort for free internet likes to boost my fragile ego . The essays are ranked within tier, as well as across tiers, which will be indicated with standard numerical rankings. I'll be excluding my recent reflection pieces since they're a completely different type of essay as compared to my argumentative essays, and as such can't be ranked by the same criteria. Just to cover that base, they'd generally float around the Great or Good tiers, if only because both were somewhat of rush jobs. With that being said, let's get into it!

Spoiler: 3. Da Best

These essays are simply my best. They're incredibly strong arguments, make points that are still relevant to this day, and are works I'm personally proud of.

1. The Second Square Enix Character Argument
My magnum opus of Smash Speculation essays. Each essay is quality (since I worked on them over the course of like 3 weeks), with the Sora essay probably being my best piece period. The Bravely essay is no slouch, and the Geno essay also bears mention because it was probably the most comprehensive, unbiased argument about Geno and addressed both sides equally. Also, let it be known I ****ing called Sephiroth in this essay, even if I ranked FF as a series lower than Bravely, Nier, and TWEWY.

2. We Never Saw It Coming: The Game Awards as a Case Study for Doubt
I hold a soft spot for this piece. Despite it being incredibly early in my writing career–only my second long-form speculation piece–and it clocks in on the shorter side of things. Despite that, it's concise and to the point, and I believe the point it makes about not trusting insiders at their word was relevant for the entirety of Smash Ultimate speculation and will be relevant during speculation of the next Smash Bros. game, so that we don't allow clout-chasing insiders to gain the influence and promote toxicity within the fanbase as they did this last cycle.

3. The Case for Gordon Freeman
Logically speaking I think this is one of, if not my strongest piece since I approached it with the mindset of an argumentative philosophy essay (I actually just wrote a 2300 word one so go figure). A really interesting character to argue for and I loved diving into the evidence to create my arguments. Also, it had impeccable timing to defeat ****ty Imran Khan speculation and introduce a fun new topic. Gordon is a critically underrated character and now that Sora's completely blown the door open for" impossible" character picks, I think Nintendo approaching Valve–or even vice versa–to get him in Smash is far more likely than any of us thing.

4. The Case Minecraft Steve and the "Smash Bubble" Effect
More than anything I appreciate this piece's purpose and lasting relevancy; A scathing critique of the core fandom's over-reliance on fan polls as a means of assessing a character's likelihood that managed to stick a bit as a fanbase term and a correct prediction before Steve was a popular speculation pick. You can't ask for much else in my opinion. Also it's just a well-written piece in how I lay out my arguments, though I feel like I could've elaborated on Nintendo and Microsoft's relationship and Steve's popularity outside the core fanbase.

Spoiler: 4. Great

These essays are some of my more quality writing and hold up well, but aren't as good as the above essays.

5. Characters to Look Out For: Don-chan
Introduces the first Characters to Look Out For series of essays really well. Argument wise it's really solid, and Don-chan wass a really interesting dark horse pick to argue for. I definitely had motivation here and it shows in how strong the argument is in my opinion. Also has what is probably the best quote from any essay of mine:

Yes, that is Megalovania, and yes, this is important. I'll explain later.

As a whole, this is definitely one of my more humorous essays, and as a whole it makes me smile.

6. Characters to Look Out For: 2B
Just a really strong essay, which shows in how I just incorporated it into my Second Ultimate Square Enix character argument and simply added onto it when discussing 2B. It's a very comprehensive argument on 2B, her notoriety, and why/how she could get into Smash. For a straightforward character argument, this essay is probably my best.

7. Characters to Look Out For: Layton & Jonesy
The Layton essay is much stronger than the Jonesy piece, as it goes deeper and discusses the European Market and Level-5 as a company, both of which are compelling topics that probably could've used more detail than what they got. The Jonesy essay is honestly like a bonus compared to the main dish that is the Layton essay, as it's just a collection of points for Jonesy in Smash rather than a comprehensive argument. Either way both are solid, and together they make this piece strong.

Yes, this tier is essentially just my first Characters to Look Out For series, but to be fair it was a really good series in my opinion.

Spoiler: 5. Good

These essays are good, but are lacking in some way, whether it be in content or the writing process.

8. The Definitive Case for Lloyd Irving
One of my earlier pieces and probably my most straightforward. I think it's most emblematic of Good Tier because it lacks the finer technique of my newer pieces, nor does it have an interesting topic to set it apart like my essays on The Game Awards and Minecraft Steve (being Insiders in the community . It's a longform speculation piece that accomplishes its purpose and nothing else.

9. The Second Set of Characters to Look Out For in Ultimate DLC
A solid series of essays carried by my technical knowledge of writing, but they're clearly lacking to me given the negative amount of motivation they were written with. I think I was supposed to write on like 3 additional characters (I can remember Sol Badguy and Kiryu specifically) but ended up cutting them because I was so burnt out on speculation and just wanted to leave Smashboards. It's a definite shame because each of the characters I wrote about are interesting in their own right, and League of Legends was a topic I'd been looking to write about for months. I know that if I'd had more motivation the LoL essay definitely could've been one of my best essays given my interest in the topic, and it's disappointing to now see my writing live up to that potential.

10. In Defense of Phoenix Wright
I'll be real and say that this was half a spite piece because I just really didn't like Scoliosis Jone's article on Capcom characters and had some petty grudge against him for a reason I can't remember. It was petty and leaves a bad taste in my mouth. The argument is good, but I approached writing it from the wrong angle, and I don't think I'll ever be able to look past that.

Spoiler: 6. Mid

By essay standards, they're probably good. By my own standards, they're my weakest works.

11. The Gran(d) Case for Granblue
I'm gonna admit this was written with big bias-tinted goggles. I kinda just wanted to talk about Granblue and thought I'd do so in big speculation essay form. Half of the essay is me explaining to Smashboards why Granblue is cool and the other half is a minor argument. It's kinda like this:

Nobody:
Absolutely nobody:
Daybreak: DID Y'ALL HEAR ABOUT GRANBLUE IT'S REALLY COOL AND HERE'S WHY IT'S GONNA BE IN SMASH

Which is fine, but it does not hold up as an argumentative essay, especially compared to my other, better works. I definitely could've put more effort into the actual argument part of the essay.

12. The Ultimate Square Enix Argument
Probably a controversial placement since it's my first piece and it's what essentially put me on the map, but honestly this is my weakest work. For one, it's plagued by grammatical errors such as block paragraphs, run-on sentences, and comma splicing—it's just ugly to look at in places. The Dragon Quest essay is the only redeeming part of this piece, as it's a rather comprehensive (if not biased) argument.

Speaking of bias, it runs rampant in this piece as well. There's clear bias for Dragon Quest and Sora and against Geno. I only really write on these three characters and the other ones don't get nearly as much attention as they should've. It's an incredibly informal piece as well and doesn't take itself too seriously, which combined with the rampant bias undermines the entire work.

As I said in intro of the Second Square Character Argument, I wrote that work partially to prove to myself that I could do better after learning more about writing in general and finding my own voice and style as a writer. I think that work makes up for a lot of the shortcomings. It's good if you want a point of comparison with which to show how much I've improved as a writer over the course of two years—compare it to the Gordon Freeman essay for the most effect—but otherwise it is not good™.

Spoiler: 7. Closing thoughts

I don't have much in the form of closing thoughts since I said my piece in my reflection on Sora. This was a bit of an impulse write since it was easy (the most effort went into formatting and minor grammatical fixes), but I figured having it here for posterity would be nice. Overall it's strange thinking I have 12 major essays, some of which are large essay series. This is definitely something I'll have to bring to my grave with me, at the very least when dating, because no girl is going to find 50,000 words written on Smashboards attractive (unfortunately). Overall I still stand by the rankings and their reasoning, but it was an absolute joy to write each and every single one of them. To close, I'll repeat what I said in the acknowledgements: I'm glad to have had this outlet, and again I'd like to thank y'all for the support my written works have received over the piece.

Now, if you'll excuse I'm going to go watch Sora's trailer again before working on the homework I've been procrastinating on this entire time.

If you want a TL;DR, this is essentially it:


(couldn't help making the joke)

Definitely give it a read if you have the time though. This'll be my last speculation piece for a good while (this time for real), but like I said previously I'll be around.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled...Geno discussion by the looks of things...
It always goes back to Geno, huh?

 

[Speed Weed]

Since I'm currently in the habit of rushing to post my final Speculation pieces about Ultimate, I'm here to hit y'all with another one. I present:

DaybreakHorizon's Smash Ultimate Speculation Essay Tier List​

Spoiler: Table of Contents

Spoiler: 1. Acknowledgements

• I don't have much in the way of acknowledgements for this piece, since it's largely a copy/paste from a Discord essay I wrote, but I would like to acknowledge and sincerely thank y'all for the support I've received for my writing over the last 3 years. I don't think I'd have been able to keep up my writing and critical thinking skills as well as I've been able to if it weren't for this outlet, and it's been fun being able to research and write about different characters over the course of speculation.

Spoiler: 2. Introduction

I've written a lot about Smash Ultimate over the past 3 or so years. To give an approximation, I've written around 50,000 words across 12 major essays and essay series. As a hobbyist writer and essayist, Smash has been my primary outlet since DLC speculation began in December 2018, and I'd like to take this opportunity to reflect a bit on each essay, where I was at when writing them, and how I think they hold up today.

Even though they weren't enough to get me on the Smashboards Writing Team (apparently I didn't provide enough writing samples even though I had like 7 essays in my signature which is literally available on my profile NO I AM NOT MAD), I think this'll be a fun little endeavor.

Also it's like no work at all since I did most of the work last December and posted it to Discord, so I'm essentially just bringing this over here and adding some minor content. Low effort for free internet likes to boost my fragile ego . The essays are ranked within tier, as well as across tiers, which will be indicated with standard numerical rankings. I'll be excluding my recent reflection pieces since they're a completely different type of essay as compared to my argumentative essays, and as such can't be ranked by the same criteria. Just to cover that base, they'd generally float around the Great or Good tiers, if only because both were somewhat of rush jobs. With that being said, let's get into it!

Spoiler: 3. Da Best

These essays are simply my best. They're incredibly strong arguments, make points that are still relevant to this day, and are works I'm personally proud of.

1. The Second Square Enix Character Argument
My magnum opus of Smash Speculation essays. Each essay is quality (since I worked on them over the course of like 3 weeks), with the Sora essay probably being my best piece period. The Bravely essay is no slouch, and the Geno essay also bears mention because it was probably the most comprehensive, unbiased argument about Geno and addressed both sides equally. Also, let it be known I ****ing called Sephiroth in this essay, even if I ranked FF as a series lower than Bravely, Nier, and TWEWY.

2. We Never Saw It Coming: The Game Awards as a Case Study for Doubt
I hold a soft spot for this piece. Despite it being incredibly early in my writing career–only my second long-form speculation piece–and it clocks in on the shorter side of things. Despite that, it's concise and to the point, and I believe the point it makes about not trusting insiders at their word was relevant for the entirety of Smash Ultimate speculation and will be relevant during speculation of the next Smash Bros. game, so that we don't allow clout-chasing insiders to gain the influence and promote toxicity within the fanbase as they did this last cycle.

3. The Case for Gordon Freeman
Logically speaking I think this is one of, if not my strongest piece since I approached it with the mindset of an argumentative philosophy essay (I actually just wrote a 2300 word one so go figure). A really interesting character to argue for and I loved diving into the evidence to create my arguments. Also, it had impeccable timing to defeat ****ty Imran Khan speculation and introduce a fun new topic. Gordon is a critically underrated character and now that Sora's completely blown the door open for" impossible" character picks, I think Nintendo approaching Valve–or even vice versa–to get him in Smash is far more likely than any of us thing.

4. The Case Minecraft Steve and the "Smash Bubble" Effect
More than anything I appreciate this piece's purpose and lasting relevancy; A scathing critique of the core fandom's over-reliance on fan polls as a means of assessing a character's likelihood that managed to stick a bit as a fanbase term and a correct prediction before Steve was a popular speculation pick. You can't ask for much else in my opinion. Also it's just a well-written piece in how I lay out my arguments, though I feel like I could've elaborated on Nintendo and Microsoft's relationship and Steve's popularity outside the core fanbase.

Spoiler: 4. Great

These essays are some of my more quality writing and hold up well, but aren't as good as the above essays.

5. Characters to Look Out For: Don-chan
Introduces the first Characters to Look Out For series of essays really well. Argument wise it's really solid, and Don-chan wass a really interesting dark horse pick to argue for. I definitely had motivation here and it shows in how strong the argument is in my opinion. Also has what is probably the best quote from any essay of mine:

As a whole, this is definitely one of my more humorous essays, and as a whole it makes me smile.

6. Characters to Look Out For: 2B
Just a really strong essay, which shows in how I just incorporated it into my Second Ultimate Square Enix character argument and simply added onto it when discussing 2B. It's a very comprehensive argument on 2B, her notoriety, and why/how she could get into Smash. For a straightforward character argument, this essay is probably my best.

7. Characters to Look Out For: Layton & Jonesy
The Layton essay is much stronger than the Jonesy piece, as it goes deeper and discusses the European Market and Level-5 as a company, both of which are compelling topics that probably could've used more detail than what they got. The Jonesy essay is honestly like a bonus compared to the main dish that is the Layton essay, as it's just a collection of points for Jonesy in Smash rather than a comprehensive argument. Either way both are solid, and together they make this piece strong.

Yes, this tier is essentially just my first Characters to Look Out For series, but to be fair it was a really good series in my opinion.

Spoiler: 5. Good

These essays are good, but are lacking in some way, whether it be in content or the writing process.

8. The Definitive Case for Lloyd Irving
One of my earlier pieces and probably my most straightforward. I think it's most emblematic of Good Tier because it lacks the finer technique of my newer pieces, nor does it have an interesting topic to set it apart like my essays on The Game Awards and Minecraft Steve (being Insiders in the community . It's a longform speculation piece that accomplishes its purpose and nothing else.

9. The Second Set of Characters to Look Out For in Ultimate DLC
A solid series of essays carried by my technical knowledge of writing, but they're clearly lacking to me given the negative amount of motivation they were written with. I think I was supposed to write on like 3 additional characters (I can remember Sol Badguy and Kiryu specifically) but ended up cutting them because I was so burnt out on speculation and just wanted to leave Smashboards. It's a definite shame because each of the characters I wrote about are interesting in their own right, and League of Legends was a topic I'd been looking to write about for months. I know that if I'd had more motivation the LoL essay definitely could've been one of my best essays given my interest in the topic, and it's disappointing to now see my writing live up to that potential.

10. In Defense of Phoenix Wright
I'll be real and say that this was half a spite piece because I just really didn't like Scoliosis Jone's article on Capcom characters and had some petty grudge against him for a reason I can't remember. It was petty and leaves a bad taste in my mouth. The argument is good, but I approached writing it from the wrong angle, and I don't think I'll ever be able to look past that.

Spoiler: 6. Mid

By essay standards, they're probably good. By my own standards, they're my weakest works.

11. The Gran(d) Case for Granblue
I'm gonna admit this was written with big bias-tinted goggles. I kinda just wanted to talk about Granblue and thought I'd do so in big speculation essay form. Half of the essay is me explaining to Smashboards why Granblue is cool and the other half is a minor argument. It's kinda like this:

Which is fine, but it does not hold up as an argumentative essay, especially compared to my other, better works. I definitely could've put more effort into the actual argument part of the essay.

12. The Ultimate Square Enix Argument
Probably a controversial placement since it's my first piece and it's what essentially put me on the map, but honestly this is my weakest work. For one, it's plagued by grammatical errors such as block paragraphs, run-on sentences, and comma splicing—it's just ugly to look at in places. The Dragon Quest essay is the only redeeming part of this piece, as it's a rather comprehensive (if not biased) argument.

Speaking of bias, it runs rampant in this piece as well. There's clear bias for Dragon Quest and Sora and against Geno. I only really write on these three characters and the other ones don't get nearly as much attention as they should've. It's an incredibly informal piece as well and doesn't take itself too seriously, which combined with the rampant bias undermines the entire work.

As I said in intro of the Second Square Character Argument, I wrote that work partially to prove to myself that I could do better after learning more about writing in general and finding my own voice and style as a writer. I think that work makes up for a lot of the shortcomings. It's good if you want a point of comparison with which to show how much I've improved as a writer over the course of two years—compare it to the Gordon Freeman essay for the most effect—but otherwise it is not good™.

Spoiler: 7. Closing thoughts

I don't have much in the form of closing thoughts since I said my piece in my reflection on Sora. This was a bit of an impulse write since it was easy (the most effort went into formatting and minor grammatical fixes), but I figured having it here for posterity would be nice. Overall it's strange thinking I have 12 major essays, some of which are large essay series. This is definitely something I'll have to bring to my grave with me, at the very least when dating, because no girl is going to find 50,000 words written on Smashboards attractive (unfortunately). Overall I still stand by the rankings and their reasoning, but it was an absolute joy to write each and every single one of them. To close, I'll repeat what I said in the acknowledgements: I'm glad to have had this outlet, and again I'd like to thank y'all for the support my written works have received over the piece.

Now, if you'll excuse I'm going to go watch Sora's trailer again before working on the homework I've been procrastinating on this entire time.

If you want a TL;DR, this is essentially it:
View attachment 334135

(couldn't help making the joke)

Definitely give it a read if you have the time though. This'll be my last speculation piece for a good while (this time for real), but like I said previously I'll be around.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled...Geno discussion by the looks of things.
It always goes back to Geno, huh?...

If nothing else I'm glad you spread the word of our lord and savior Don-chan. Respect

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

If nothing else I'm glad you spread the word of our lord and savior Don-chan. Respect

Spread the word? I don't think you understand.

I was the one who introduced Don-chan to the Speculation Thread

He really is a great character and Taiko no Tatsujin is such a fun series, so I'm glad his essay was one of my better essays.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

I did see someone mentioning how odd Terry was in retrospect and it does really remind me of how Sakurai's "It's more important for the character to be fun than recognizable" couldn't have been further from how Pass 2 handled things even just compared to Pass 1. Like Terry, alongside Joker and Banjo & Kazooie to varying extents, were sort of smaller in nature that indicated a kind of new direction third parties could take. Not just the biggest characters in gaming, but other popular and well known characters that weren't always the most popular and biggest franchises ever. I think it gave a lot of hope to fans of similar third parties like your Ryu Hayabusa, Adol from Ys, Rayman, et. al. fans out there that this was arguably their time to seriously have a shot at inclusion with the direction Smash was going for its third parties...

And then Pass 2 just goes nah, we're dropping the biggest video game of all time, one of the most well known video game villains ever, the biggest 3D fighting series that has actually eclipsed Street Fighter in sales, and then the impossible dream of Sora crossing over. Just all the third parties, running counter to a lot of what Pass 1 focused on and it's absolutely wild.

Which on one hand is great because I love the 4 third parties included with Pass 2, but on the other it is a shame all those other smaller franchises really felt like they had an opportunity and their moment was coming, only for some of Smash's biggest inclusions to come declaring their place in Smash.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

I did see someone mentioning how odd Terry was in retrospect and it does really remind me of how Sakurai's "It's more important for the character to be fun than recognizable" couldn't have been further from how Pass 2 handled things even just compared to Pass 1. Like Terry, alongside Joker and Banjo & Kazooie to varying extents, were sort of smaller in nature that indicated a kind of new direction third parties could take. Not just the biggest characters in gaming, but other popular and well known characters that weren't always the most popular and biggest franchises ever. I think it gave a lot of hope to fans of similar third parties like your Ryu Hayabusa, Adol from Ys, Rayman, et. al. fans out there that this was arguably their time to seriously have a shot at inclusion with the direction Smash was going for its third parties...

And then Pass 2 just goes nah, we're dropping the biggest video game of all time, one of the most well known video game villains ever, the biggest 3D fighting series that has actually eclipsed Street Fighter in sales, and then the impossible dream of Sora crossing over. Just all the third parties, running counter to a lot of what Pass 1 focused on and it's absolutely wild.

Which on one hand is great because I love the 4 third parties included with Pass 2, but on the other it is a shame all those other smaller franchises really felt like they had an opportunity and their moment was coming, only for some of Smash's biggest inclusions to come declaring their place in Smash.

But consider, what if the character is fun and recognizable?

eh? eh?

 

[PeridotGX]

Speaking as someone who hasn't played Kingdom Hearts but has read up on it a decent amount and listened to some songs, having Disney content was just something I thought would be nice, if only for the sheer hilarity of having Donald and Goofy in Smash. Sadly everything sans the Mickey keychain was censored out beyond the presentation, but eh. It never seemed like a necessity, just a neat little luxury if possible (Which it evidently isn't)

i think it's even funnier that some casual might play sora in smash (without any knowledge of KH), think "oh he's pretty cool guy i'm gonna play his games", and get shocked when donald duck shows up

 

[WeirdChillFever]

I did see someone mentioning how odd Terry was in retrospect and it does really remind me of how Sakurai's "It's more important for the character to be fun than recognizable" couldn't have been further from how Pass 2 handled things even just compared to Pass 1. Like Terry, alongside Joker and Banjo & Kazooie to varying extents, were sort of smaller in nature that indicated a kind of new direction third parties could take. Not just the biggest characters in gaming, but other popular and well known characters that weren't always the most popular and biggest franchises ever. I think it gave a lot of hope to fans of similar third parties like your Ryu Hayabusa, Adol from Ys, Rayman, et. al. fans out there that this was arguably their time to seriously have a shot at inclusion with the direction Smash was going for its third parties...

And then Pass 2 just goes nah, we're dropping the biggest video game of all time, one of the most well known video game villains ever, the biggest 3D fighting series that has actually eclipsed Street Fighter in sales, and then the impossible dream of Sora crossing over. Just all the third parties, running counter to a lot of what Pass 1 focused on and it's absolutely wild.

Which on one hand is great because I love the 4 third parties included with Pass 2, but on the other it is a shame all those other smaller franchises really felt like they had an opportunity and their moment was coming, only for some of Smash's biggest inclusions to come declaring their place in Smash.

I get it though. Every character can be made fun, but not every character can be made recognizable. Anyway I have not a buttload of sympathy for the “lowkey third parties“ for missing out on the very same boat they pushed the first parties from. Don’t be surprised Steve gets in over you if your discussion pushes characters like Paper Mario, Bandana Dee and Dixie Kong out of the discourse for a good two years because you value shock factor and new worlds over popularity. Base game addition my horse-pasted buttcrack

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Maybe I should clarify before I get quoted a million times, I'm not upset at the direction they went with Pass 2, just more of how funny Terry's moment is in retrospect when it lit the beacon of hope for so many people as Pass 1 was winding down and then Pass 2 went absolutely bonkers in the other direction.

 

[N3ON]

Let's try to end this once and for all: If I can admit that Geno Fans hyped themselves too much and whipped themselves into a frenzy that exploded in a horrendous meltdown in Dec of 2020, can YOU admit that forces outside the thread coming in and the attitude of many in this thread to Geno Fans coming here actively pushed them towards digging deeper and anchoring in these over-swelled dreams when people being less antagonistic and responding to them with less irritation and distain in the first place would have lead them to be less justified in their response?

In other words, can you admit it takes two to tango and eight to square dance?

In every one of my posts on the matter I have acknowledged that those outside the Geno thread played a role in getting the discord to where it was, so if you think I haven't admitted it yet, I question how much you've been paying attention to the actual details of what other people are saying against your reflex of towing your party line.

Look, I literally used the same phrase as you yesterday

Of course it takes two to tango, and capping at that fever pitch was a group effort

I do notice, however, that even your admission only contends with the Geno fans as getting irresponsibly overhyped while the onus of hostility is still on everyone else, which anyone with a modicum of memory of that time can deduce is a favourably one-sided recollection of things.

 

[AinsOoalGown]

Spoiler

Super Mario Bros.:
Donkey Kong:
The Legend of Zelda:
Metroid:
Yoshi:
Kirby:
StarFox:
Pokemon:()
EarthBound:
F-Zero:
Ice Climber:
Fire Emblem:
Game & Watch:
Kid Icarus:
WarioWare:
Metal Gear Solid:
Sonic the Hedgehog:
Pikmin:
R.O.B.:
Animal Crossing:
Mega Man:
Wii Fit:
Punch-Out!!:
Mii:)
Pac-Man:
Xenoblade:/
Duck Hunt:
Street Fighter:
Final Fantasy VII:
Bayonetta:
Splatoon:
Castlevania:
Persona 5:
Dragon Quest XI:
Banjo-Kazooie:
Fatal Fury:
ARMS:
Minecraft:
Tekken:
Kingdom Hearts:

40 franchises that made the cut.

Yes before you ask I'm bored.

You can include Dragon Quest over the series as a whole and not XI, besides the other Heroes, the monster spirits do appear in most games other than the Tockles

Brawl may have a smaller roster than Ultimate, but I think it's SLIGHTLY better because it felt complete without feeling overstuffed.
Because Ultimate was going all in with "Everyone is here!", it resulted in a inflated roster (three Link? Do we need that many?) and exacerbated Fire Emblem's issue with overrepresentation. Also most of Ultimate's newcomers were locked behind a DLC paywall while Brawl newcomers were all part of the base game.

That's BS because the entire Brawl roster is IN Ultimate anyway, and the roster is incredibly balanced as a whole (having 80+ fighters and the vast majority beign unique is not something you can easily find) both in moveset but also in repping different series and styles, saying its stuffed etc is just an excuse to not like one or another specific choice, but an extra Link, for example. absolutely doesnt make it so, when the whole of it is already much bigger and more varied than Brawl was.
And even if the talk was related to only newcomers, it would still be bs as then any of the very few redundancies is from previous entries and isn't Ultimate's fault to begin with. Complaining about DLC is already a terrible argument as Ultimate added DLC to an already quite complete and varied roster while Brawl had to focus mostly on "shoe-ins" to a very small roster that was previously filled with clones, so not a good comparision at all, the first was the cherry on the top of an already perfected, varied roster, the second had to add to even start making it "complete" and even then the second is entirely inside the first, so any excuse about inflation is just being bitter that you are not into every fighter.

 

[SharkLord]

i think it's even funnier that some casual might play sora in smash (without any knowledge of KH), think "oh he's pretty cool guy i'm gonna play his games", and get shocked when donald duck shows up

"Sora, it's DONALD"

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Fun fact: In the Japanese version of Sora's trailer, instead of saying "Let's go!" he says "I left you waiting!" which is another reason to love Sora's trailer.

 

[Adrianette Bromide]

What if they added that one Nintendo fighting game character (the pink robot guy) into Smash instead of Sora, imagine that lol

 

[HYRULESHERO42]

What if they added that one Nintendo fighting game character (the pink robot guy) into Smash instead of Sora, imagine that lol

Sukapon - that would have been funny

 

[SharkLord]

What if they added that one Nintendo fighting game character (the pink robot guy) into Smash instead of Sora, imagine that lol

His name is the Holy One Sukapon you fricking frick heretic

 

[N3ON]

I did see someone mentioning how odd Terry was in retrospect and it does really remind me of how Sakurai's "It's more important for the character to be fun than recognizable" couldn't have been further from how Pass 2 handled things even just compared to Pass 1. Like Terry, alongside Joker and Banjo & Kazooie to varying extents, were sort of smaller in nature that indicated a kind of new direction third parties could take. Not just the biggest characters in gaming, but other popular and well known characters that weren't always the most popular and biggest franchises ever. I think it gave a lot of hope to fans of similar third parties like your Ryu Hayabusa, Adol from Ys, Rayman, et. al. fans out there that this was arguably their time to seriously have a shot at inclusion with the direction Smash was going for its third parties...

And then Pass 2 just goes nah, we're dropping the biggest video game of all time, one of the most well known video game villains ever, the biggest 3D fighting series that has actually eclipsed Street Fighter in sales, and then the impossible dream of Sora crossing over. Just all the third parties, running counter to a lot of what Pass 1 focused on and it's absolutely wild.

Which on one hand is great because I love the 4 third parties included with Pass 2, but on the other it is a shame all those other smaller franchises really felt like they had an opportunity and their moment was coming, only for some of Smash's biggest inclusions to come declaring their place in Smash.

With the benefit of retrospect you can look back on Terry as what he truly was; the beginning of a changing trend for inclusions, but not a point of no return where most will emulate him afterwards. He was, in practice, an exception for Ultimate that will become more standard down the line.

And that's generally how third-parties work. Sephiroth showed up and people started expecting the likes of Chun-Li or Eggman, but did we get a second unique character? No. But we will eventually. Banjo showed up and shepherded greater expectation for western characters, but we only got one more. Even third-parties themselves started slow, and took the better part of a decade to become relatively commonplace.

Eventually more characters will be on Terry's level. But it's a gradual thing. As it usually is with Smash.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

What if they added that one Nintendo fighting game character (the pink robot guy) into Smash instead of Sora, imagine that lol

Sukapon? He’d be neat. I wish there were more Retro characters.

 

[N3ON]

Fun fact: In the Japanese version of Sora's trailer, instead of saying "Let's go!" he says "I left you waiting!" which is another reason to love Sora's trailer.

Great now I'm just picturing David Hayter's voice coming out of Sora's mouth and laughing about it xD

 

[AinsOoalGown]

Sukapon? He’d be neat. I wish there were more Retro characters.

This is the sole thing I missed in Ultimate, a purely retro choice with no "new" appearences. My go to would be the Excite Biker just because the game is one of those that really "represents" that era in a way (and because pulling off a constant biker would be hilarious)

Mostly stopped caring about what Pokemon get in after Ultimate ruined Smash 4's perfect, no overlap, typing spread.

All I really want is a fully evolved Grass starter. I don't care which one.

The closest thing I have to an evergreen pick is Garchomp.

That solves the in-house problems. But some people live in rural areas where the problem is outside their house.

None of the pokemon other than Pichu play at all like each other and thats completely and objectively unrelated to their typing at all, they are amongst the most unique fighters in the roster. Likewise, if they added Umbreon for example it would play nothing like Greninja, if they added Electvire it would play nothing like Pikachu, if they added Arcanine it would play nothing like Charizard etc. Meanwhile pokemon of new types could play the same as other fighters in the roster, including non-pokemon ones, so its in true bad faith to pretend to even care about such requests at all when they are used to play some weird memory-game with speculation discussions.
Type is 100% irrelevant and only serves to satisfy some bizarre, unjustifiable dopamine of filling imaginary patterns that make no difference in a concrete sense, aren't and shouldnt be followed by devs and have nothing interesting by themselves, other games have classes and types of their own too, its just how theyre classified in their original game, it just shows someone doesnt care at all about pokemon fighters and never did if their value is to serve as some pattern filling that has as much value as playing a minute of Cookie Clicker.
Im glad this foolish obsession with filling patterns instead of just asking for characters one would like hasnt really contaminated most character requests (other than the silly complaint about rpg protags having swords as if that stops them from being good choices) as its really undeserving to see people complain when their imaginary rules turn out to not be followed by real games while the choices themselves are just there to fill a quota and werent truly asked for.
Imaginary Pattern-filling also is quite obviously something that Sakurai and the dev team never looked for, though if Sakurai was the type to care for imaginary patterns this much he would definetly never make it as a big time developer to begin with

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

Fun fact: In the Japanese version of Sora's trailer, instead of saying "Let's go!" he says "I left you waiting!" which is another reason to love Sora's trailer.

Here is another fun fact: Sora

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

"Sora, it's DONALD"

I don't know what's funnier

This line or the fact that the line it's taken from made me read this in Donald's voice

 

[ARandomZoomer]

The only thing I find odd about Sora's inclusion is the apparent lack of enemy as spirits

 

[PeridotGX]

This is the sole thing I missed in Ultimate, a purely retro choice with no "new" appearences. My go to would be the Excite Biker just because the game is one of those that really "represents" that era in a way (and because pulling off a constant biker would be hilarious)


None of the pokemon other than Pichu play at all like each other and thats completely and objectively unrelated to their typing at all, they are amongst the most unique fighters in the roster. Likewise, if they added Umbreon for example it would play nothing like Greninja, if they added Electvire it would play nothing like Pikachu, if they added Arcanine it would play nothing like Charizard etc. Meanwhile pokemon of new types could play the same as other fighters in the roster, including non-pokemon ones, so its in true bad faith to pretend to even care about such requests at all when they are used to play some weird memory-game with speculation discussions.
Type is 100% irrelevant and only serves to satisfy some bizarre, unjustifiable dopamine of filling imaginary patterns that make no difference in a concrete sense, aren't and shouldnt be followed by devs and have nothing interesting by themselves, other games have classes and types of their own too, its just how theyre classified in their original game, it just shows someone doesnt care at all about pokemon fighters and never did if their value is to serve as some pattern filling that has as much value as playing a minute of Cookie Clicker.
Im glad this foolish obsession with filling patterns instead of just asking for characters one would like hasnt really contaminated most character requests (other than the silly complaint about rpg protags having swords as if that stops them from being good choices) as its really undeserving to see people complain when their imaginary rules turn out to not be followed by real games while the choices themselves are just there to fill a quota and werent truly asked for.
Imaginary Pattern-filling also is quite obviously something that Sakurai and the dev team never looked for, though if Sakurai was the type to care for imaginary patterns this much he would definetly never make it as a big time developer to begin with

if we're focusing on gameplay decidueye still would've been more intresting than incineroar so

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

I don't know what's funnier

This line or the fact that the line it's taken from made me read this in Donald's voice

See I read it in full George Newbern Sephiroth voice. It made it pretty ****in' funny not gonna lie.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

The only thing I find odd about Sora's inclusion is the apparent lack of enemy as spirits

They had 13 Xehanorts to choose from and not a single one made it in.

Truly, light triumphed over the darkness

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

if we're focusing on gameplay decidueye still would've been more intresting than decidueye so

I dunno, I think Decidueye would've been more interesting than Decidueye and Decidueye.

Really, Decidueye would've been the best choice overall.

 

[Noipoi]

if we're focusing on gameplay decidueye still would've been more intresting than decidueye so

Decidueye:

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I dunno, I think Decidueye would've been more interesting than Decidueye and Decidueye.

Really, Decidueye would've been the best choice overall.

I think you're selling Decidueye short

 

[ARandomZoomer]

Those Decidueye fans are not going to be happy when Decidueye is picked for the next game, Super Smash Brothers Decidueye Edition

 

[PeridotGX]

I dunno, I think Decidueye would've been more interesting than Decidueye and Decidueye.

Really, Decidueye would've been the best choice overall.

Decidueye:

View attachment 334154

i'm trying really hard to be salty about the cat three years after the fact, let me have this

 

[ahemtoday]

Shoulda picked Primarina, to be honest.

 

[Noipoi]

Pyukumuku was robbed.

 

[Strider_Bond00J]

One week since Sora's reveal. How y'all still think and feel about this?

Has it really been one full week since Sora's reveal? That's insane. Still can't believe it. I think my sentiment is pretty much the same as it was previously - As much as I wanted the final fighter to be Phoenix Wright, Kazuma Kiryu, Doom Slayer or Reimu, there's just something magical about Sora's inclusion in Smash Bros. THE most wanted fighter from the ballot after all those years, and the fact that Sakurai and the team likely fought tooth and nail with both Disney and Square Enix at the legal level just to make Sora be the final fighter... I'm happy trading my most wanted characters just for that experience.

I'm pretty happy to be honest, even though I confess Sora wasn't on my radar of most wanted characters because of all the legal hoopla. But outside of that he looks super fun and faithful to the Kingdom Hearts series. Hollow Bastion/Dive to the Heart is a great choice for a stage, and the music selection is relatively decent. I'm hoping to get back into Kingdom Hearts thanks to this, so I've got The Story So Far Collection ready to go when I play through more of the backlog. But I can't wait to play Sora.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Mimikyu for life. Mm~

 

[Phoenix Douchebag]

Snip

Quoting this for a future post. Not in this thread, ignore this post otherwise.

In the meantine, as someone whose proper introduction to KH was DDD, having that design as an Alt is sweet.

 

[subterrestrial]

rly wish they told us who was the top 10 or even 5 in the smash ballot (videogame chars)