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I remeber getting told "Then why are you in this thread" when I said I like to just watch people talk about characters they want and the respons was "if you arent here to talk about geno, leave us alone" and then came the constant Sora bashing
You could say my view on them kinda got soiled then
Tho I feel pretty validated knowing the exact character they kept throwing under the bus in that thread is the one I really wanted and is the one that really got in
You could argue that no matter who won the ballot, if they were CP11 it'd be big.
Ofc it's Sora in this case but even if someone else won the ballot, they'd still get SUCH an overwhelming amount of positive reception
How could have they done a better job translating ARMS to Smash?
This isn't a rhetorical question. I'd love to know, as somebody who doesn't really mind Min Min as much as most seem to.
How could have they done a better job translating ARMS to Smash?
This isn't a rhetorical question. I'd love to know, as somebody who doesn't really mind Min Min as much as most seem to.
It's really a tough question. The essential thing to consider is that ARMS is a metagame designed around every fighter having extendable fists and the ability to sidestep attacks very easily, creating an elaborate bait-and-punish meta game where carelessly throwing out punches drastically decreases one's options and opens them up to counterattack.
No matter who the ARMS rep, they were always going to be the sole fighter in Smash with extendable arms, giving them incredible power since long horizontal range is so powerful here. What would translate as a circle or oval to avoid in ARMS becomes a massive oblong of pain in Smash. So Min Min moves away from her home meta to become a zoner of a simple yet infuriating kind.
The main problem isn't neccessarily in the ARMS themselves: sure, their ability to edgeguard / harass with zero commitment can be annoyng, but it's comes with the territory. They're also very commital for that matter - one or especially two improperly timed ARM swings do leave Min Min (or any ARMS character) at a disadvantage. Yes, the damage is a bit high, but that's compensated by Min Min having a really bad disadvantage in turn, so that's not a humongous issue.
(That said, one way of going about it would be to - as Nekoosaid - give the ARMS a hurtbox so there's no encouragement to just throw them out).
Also, the ARMS themselves can only hit on well, the ARMS themselves. Which has lead to situations like the Dragon ARMs missing a sleeping Hero (loud sound warning).
Instead I'm primarily looking at Min Min's second line of defense: her kicks. Especially her Up Smash. There's a reason MockRock recently put it in amongst his "Top 10 Out of Shield options" list (which was unordered, but still):
She effectively not only got what is essentially Fox's Up Smash - already a pretty infamous move both in Melee and Ultimate because it's fast and kills - with a reflector, but that Up Smash's hitbox is big both vertically and horizontally. Yes, it has been nerfed pretty significantly (mostly its knockback), but pre-nerf it was faster than Fox's. Okay it has the same damage output as Fox's (with weakened later hits) and has very high endlag, but still, even the sourspots have value.
Why is that even on her moveset. (Okay, this is a game where quite a lot of characters have "Why." moves, but still.) And that speed carries over to her other kicks as well: with down tilt being her only kinda sorta "slow" kick. It creates scenarios where the opponent has to outmaneuver her twice while she only has to guess right once. Which is more of a problem for slower characters - especially those who can't toss a lot of projectiles her way and overwhelm her Up Smash's high endlag.
Of course, I don't really mind Min Min either (mostly because you know what to expect and there's significant counterplay to her - mixing up approaches being a primary one), but if I were to argue for a specific problem area, it's that. Min Min should not be instantly overwhelmed up close, that's not what I'm trying to argue. Instead, her kicks just being a teeny bit slower would go a long way towards balancing her out.
Everyone knows that, the issues are how the move itself is ridiculously good and how it reflects projectiles to references that ability but her ARMS cannot be reflected at all
I dislike Kingdom Hearts, and I don't care for Sora personally, but despite both of these things, I'm very happy to see him. There was no better way to wrap things up then with the single most popular remaining request - my own individual opinion be damned. He looks fun to play, too!
I'm glad they kept Disney out of it; I really just do not like the mouse - though it's anyone's guess whether they were able to include Disney content, and whether they would have if they were. I can tolerate the keychain.
I dislike Kingdom Hearts, and I don't care for Sora personally, but despite both of these things, I'm very happy to see him. There was no better way to wrap things up then with the single most popular remaining request - my own individual opinion be damned. He looks fun to play, too!
I'm glad they kept Disney out of it; I really just do not like the mouse - though it's anyone's guess whether they were able, and whether they would have if they were. I can tolerate the keychain.
It's pretty hard to argue against the #1 ballot pick. Even if people don't like him on a personal level, the majority has spoken and frankly, as someone who's played Kingdom Hearts from the beginning, I'm pretty stoked.
I'd say I'm really happy he's the last character and after being burned out by the Epic Games store exclusivity, I'm glad that the Kingdom Hearts series is on the Nintendo Switch, albeit a cloud version of it.
Wait a minute, do I have to pay for Nintendo Switch online to access cloud games?
It's pretty hard to argue against the #1 ballot pick. Even if people don't like him on a personal level, the majority has spoken and frankly, as someone who's played Kingdom Hearts from the beginning, I'm pretty stoked.
I'd say I'm really happy he's the last character and after being burned out by the Epic Games store exclusivity, I'm glad that the Kingdom Hearts series is on the Nintendo Switch, albeit a cloud version of it.
Wait a minute, do I have to pay for Nintendo Switch online to access cloud games?
This is why I've seen some people complain about the ways in which the KH games are coming to the Switch. I personally have good wifi so I'm fine, but its not as convenient for others and that's a bummer.
I’m a fan of the Kingdom Hearts games but never really cared for Sora as a character. I’m more of a Xemnas, Ansem, Axel kind of guy. Still, it’s hard to be disappointed with the fact that the true ballot winner was the final DLC character no matter who it was. I’m happy that a series I enjoy got in even if it wasn’t the character I wanted. Realistically, if a KH character was getting in, it had to be Sora first. Same goes for my other most wanted, Magus, who would likely get passed over for Crono.
I'm a data hoarder, latency freak, and general nerd so I kind of hate cloud gaming... I wanna say it's "better than nothing" with regards to the KH games but... is it? I don't know if I can say that with regards to DRM's inbred cousin.
Damn, Geno got Top 15 again! I honestly thought that Japan had moved on to what they would deem greener pastures with all the crazy amount of games that tend to fill their cultural niche more, but let's go Japanese Geno Bros!
Not sure where you found those supposed rabid Geno fans, but I know for a fact that the Geno Thread here didn't really see Sora as competition despite my warnings, and thus there really wasn't a lot of hate on him. Most people just thought him impossible, which I think was just the general consensus, and if I ever saw it people like SSGuy, Mr. Sweeps and myself usually cracked down on said hate. Sounds like you were looking on Twitter or something, though my experience with that is you can't be a Geno fan and have an active Twitter unless you are well known for something else first.
Also, I'm not so sure all those names are just complete garbo, but I'll talk about that more in my post about Deluxe when the new thread pops up.
Also @ShotoStar my dude, Geno isn't a pipedream. Bigger, more popular names were prioritized this time around, so we just hang around until the next Smash title and things will be Gucci.
At some point you have to be willing to acknowledge that the Geno thread was not all rosy and that at its best points it was still a place of considerable controversy. Like, there are numerous people here and former posters who don't really post anymore that have spoke to not enjoying that environment and how the community devolved at numerous points, and you can't just casually hand wave that away or try so hard to invalidate those experiences. That's not to say the Geno thread didn't get a lot of undeserved **** that also made others act out, but as with most things, it was much more complicated and nuanced than that. I'm not here to relitigate every argument or the long history of it, but there were incredibly hostile comments to Dragon Quest and Sora all the time until Sora got "disconfirmed" by various outside factors and people no longer felt threatened by him. I spent months trying to point out Dragon Quest was not only NOT unreasonable, but even a really good pick for an audience that wasn't the same as the Geno fan base in most instances. That stuff didn't happen all the time, but there was absolutely an air of arrogance that resulted from being a "fan favorite" in a game that had a focus on the ballot that made it harder to talk about characters in general or even suggest Geno might not be the frontrunner for another Square Enix fighter. Hell, that's why something like the Seven Squares thread was even initially created to allow for a broader discussion without the issues.
And yeah, not everybody always behaved as they should have, I'll be the first to admit I occasionally veered too far into tone policing and I occasionally let my love of general Smash discussion ignore the fact I was in a Geno support centered thread. But it was also essentially a second social thread to some extent if I'm going to defend myself in a slightly minor way. But the December to June period of 2018-2019 was a genuine mess for a lot of parts of the fan base as you had the main rivalries and spots being gunned for in terms of Microsoft and Square Enix. Fan favorites that a lot of people had investment in, and "F so and so" got thrown around a lot by a lot of people. And then in the aftermath of E3 2019 was the rise of the false leaker culture that would dominate things until Sephiroth showed up.
There were absolutely genuine Geno fans who just wanted to have fun and people who were willing to be grounded in speculating, and I think very few people had issues with any of those people in the thread. I think it becomes more complicated with people who felt the need to almost tone police the other way towards positivity for Geno, the occasional bitterness of characters not going in a way people liked (anti sword fighter sentiment was real bad in the thread at times), and especially a lot of the really excessive tin foil stuff (which is fine in moderation mind you). I think the early days of the Geno thread for Ultimate were genuinely pretty solid (and while there was an arrogance there undoubtedly, I do think that was when it was the most understandable) and with less incident (I still did see some Sora hate then, but Dragon Quest was the undiscussed elephant in the room until leaks started happening).
It's a complicated history full of decent peaks and some really low moments, but it's now a part of Geno's mythology at this point. Whether or not he happens depends a lot on just how many resources are available next game. I don't think he's impossible, but I also don't think he's ever going to have an easy route to playable. Cloud, Sephiroth, Hero, and Sora are all gonna be veterans people want to see, and I think Nier's evolution into a major brand for Square Enix is absolutely another hurdle he'd have to clear now too. And I also don't think that major requests are going away anytime soon. There's still several left and I'd argue Sora opens the door for even more crazy stuff like Valve in Smash or other things that people more easily wrote off. And while there's a lot of Japanese gaming playable now, the Western gaming front is still so unexplored. And that's without even touching on how a handful of first parties "fan favorites" have managed to solidify their place in speculation during the Ultimate cycle as they missed their opportunity.
Geno is always facing an incredibly uphill battle for inclusion as the resources available are always going to be limited. It's part of what makes his mythology as a request so endearing, but also part of what makes being a fan and pushing for his inclusion so incredibly frustrating at times.
Everyone knows that, the issues are how the move itself is ridiculously good and how it reflects projectiles to references that ability but her ARMS cannot be reflected at all
I dislike Kingdom Hearts, and I don't care for Sora personally, but despite both of these things, I'm very happy to see him. There was no better way to wrap things up then with the single most popular remaining request - my own individual opinion be damned. He looks fun to play, too!
I'm glad they kept Disney out of it; I really just do not like the mouse - though it's anyone's guess whether they were able to include Disney content, and whether they would have if they were. I can tolerate the keychain.
Its funny how everyone yelled about Sora wouldnt be Sora without Disney in smash and smash and yet Sora is just as good without Disney. It's almost like the Disney stuff does little to nothing for the series and just having it be Kingdom Hearts stuff is just as good
Its funny how everyone yelled about Sora wouldnt be Sora without Disney in smash and smash and yet Sora is just as good without Disney. It's almost like the Disney stuff does little to nothing for the series and just having it be Kingdom Hearts stuff is just as good
I mean The Disney part is important to the series, let's be real.
However, the non-argument was that Sora couldn't represent Kingdom Hearts by himself without Disney Stuff. Which is ****ing BS, when you see his gameplay in smash, you just see Sora from KH, not a gutted out version.
I never understood the need of Disney stuff in sora
i dont feel bad about them honestly they are probably the same people who asked for Blaziken then moved on to Sceptile then moved on to Decidueye then now they are at Cinderace they are not loyal to what pokemon they actually want all they could think of is starters everytime its so lame when there are alot of way more interesting pokemon picks out there and all they could think of are starters.
I will not be surprised if next smash game gets announced then they move on to next gen starter
I tend not to like to gloat over characters that didn't get in but I just hate the bunny so forking much, you wouldn't believe how freaked out I was that the soccer mom rabbit was gonna punt that fireball into Mario's face. Needless to say, the Mickey keychain had me relieved.
Atop of that, I generally don't even like Kingdon Hearts but somehow just knowing how big a request he was put a dumb grin on my face. He rrallt was finally here.
As someone who is a huge SMRPG fan, doesn't hate Geno and is not opposed to him being in Smash, and even used to visit the Geno thread frequently, I have to say the Geno thread could DEFINITELY get unpleasant.
-The Brave leak times were really awful, and it was pretty frustrating to see all the various ways people in the thread tried to **** on the DQ franchise or throw it under the bus, and I'm not even that much of a DQ fan myself.
-Anti-anime swordsman sentiment was certainly prevalent, and as someone who has Isaac as a MW, and also has interest in characters like Elma, Crono, and others, that garbage really ticks me off and "OMG TOO MANY ANIME SWORDSMEN" is seriously one of the worst, dumbest complaints to ever gain any traction within the Smash community.
-I do feel the Geno thread focused WAAAY too much on detractors or whoever they considered "detractors." It felt like the thread would focus on negativity more than positivity ya know?
-Not really an "unpleasant" thing, but I swear atleast 75% of the thread's post count was people playing 20 questions (or perhaps it'd be more apt to call it "a million questions") with ObeseIndividualOverFrozenH20. Kinda got tiring to wade through.
It's a crime we didn't get the Samus Returns design. The Dread suit is so sleek and cool (especially once upgraded) that I'm gonna be annoyed if it's not the default next time. They should also go a bit beyond. I want the Dread power suit, varia suit, and gravity suit in the next game.
- She appears in the Yume Nikki sprite artstyle, albeit as a 3D model. She's very small, being about Pichu-sized. She's also quite slow. Her walk is the slowest in the game, and her dash has her do a little girly-run that's not the slowest, but is still quite slow. Her jump is miserable, her double jump only slightly better. And to top (bottom?) it all off, she's a featherweight, at around Mr. Game & Watch's weight.
- She'll have two different side specials. If used on the ground, it's Bicycle, but if used in the air, it's Witch Flight. Bicycle is basically Wario's side special but without the leftover item, while Witch Flight - Madotsuki gaining the Witch effect and zooming on a broom - is comparable to a fully charged, non-misfire Green Missile, although it deals less damage than that.
- Normals... Jab is a little non-standard. It's only two hits - a downward swing of a kitchen knife followed by a forward stab. She's so small and with such a tiny blade, the range really is terrible. At least the second hit, the stab, does respectable damage.
Up-tilt is a directly upwards stab of the knife, Madotsuki visibly standing on her tip-toes. It's very quick and deals some fair damage, all while having very little knockback. The only problem is, again, the range. It takes some fair setup to get the opponent in a position to make use of Smash for Mario PTSD.
Down-tilt has her stab the knife in front of her, downwards. If they're close enough for it to land - no easy feat, it causes them to limp over and fall, rather than get knocked back, similar to Focus Attack.
Forward tilt has her push her umbrella forward while opening it. It has very solid range compared to the rest of her tilts and stays out for a good bit, and if timed right, does a lot of knockback too! It can even kill at higher percentages. Though it does very little damage. Said damage also isn't dealt via a poison effect like her knife tilts.
- Aerials are still being thought of, though her up-air will likely be a vertical version of her forward tilt, while her down-air is a stall-and-fall involving the Fatten effect, complete with small shockwaves to either side of her during the endlag animation, assuming she lands on the ground.
Next update is just gonna be the finished google doc, I feel...!
I mean, I wouldn't be upset if they kept it as an alt.
It would be odd if it was her only design in the next game though when there are more recent designs to choose from now (Samus returns and Dread, Maybe Prime 4?)
Well hopefully, Dread gets good enough sales to encourage a change to Samus' Dread suit, much like Mario and Odyssey, or Link and Breath of the Wild. But I also wouldn't be surprised if Nintendo got cheap and the Other M model was kept and slightly modified.
Man, it feels weird to talk so early about Smash 6 when it won't be announced for a while and plenty of other games, like Breath of the Wild 2, Bayonetta 3, possibly Metroid Prime 4 and other unannounced titles will be out by then to include in speculation when it finally is.
I wish they'd take the Ike approach to everyone with multiple viable choices for their model in Smash...
Samus has plenty of great designs to choose from, and we've got eight slots... why in hell should we have to pick?
Something I will say about it is that the Geno thread at its worst can demonstrate the dark side about positivity for a character.
Affection for a potential fighter can lead to a lot cool and interesting posts; ideas for movesets, stage concepts, reflections about their home game, comparisons to titles that came after, etc. To its credit (and something that I don't think gets mentioned enough) is that the Geno thread often did have that, and I often personally utilized it more to offer general thoughts about Mario RPG and the relevant points around than just outright speculation.
The problem is of course is that the positive energy for a character can also leave one blind to the dubious habits they engage in for "support" of the character; attacking other potential fighters, believing ill intent when other posters offer any criticism, and yes, letting one's skepticism go by the wayside because of confirmation bias. "I want this to be true, ergo it likely is" is a problem in a lot of speculation (and even the leak scene in general) and it got crystalized hard in a lot of ways here.
I think Geno's status as a fairly underdog choice had the unfortunate effect of causing many of his fans to likely downplay (either conscious or not) certain toxic behaviors they or others engaged in, specifically because he was an dark horse pick that needed all the passionate fans he could get in a crowded space like Smashboards. It was probably easy for some to rationalize a lot questionable messages because of who he was and how some circles in the speculation scene viewed the character's chances.
I've mentioned being a long time Sonic fan before and I do so again because I think its allowed me to both sense the worst instincts in myself as far as fandom discourse and understand the context as to why some fans do fall into that while still not condoning it. I mean, the tendency of some Geno fans to have leapt at every "leak" is eerily reminiscent of some within Sonic circles latching on to any rumor or statement that makes the round on the YouTube clickbait scene as proof of some new game or remaster that's coming.
In general I think what would be best for certain fans of Geno would be to do what the best parts of the Sonic community have done; get involved with the art, storytelling, or even the mod/game making scenes to shift that sense of passion about the character into something away from hypothetical speculation and more outright creation. If a game like Sonic Robo Blast 2 can be started in the late 90s and still worked on (and thriving) to this day, then who's to say a Mario RPG fan/s can't do the same?
Today in 2013, "Pokémon X / Y" will be released !! Mega sinker was introduced for the first time. In Smash Bros., the appearance of Greninja is big. Guest Yveltal can be seen at the final point of the Prism Tower stage. #SmashBrosSP
Long answer: He was the perfect ending for Ultimate. Not only the most requested character, but also probably the hardest to get given his ownership with Disney. Not to mention while Square may not have been legally involved they were likely consulted and kept in the loop on the DLC since they develop the games. Legal Jargon aside, he also just looks like fun. His moves look satisfying and his floatiness and animations exude a sort of Disney magic to me. He’ll probably be really fun to play. His alts are top notch and his stage looks really good too, along with having no hazards and a simple layout (music is probably gonna kill its competitive viability though)
Short Answer: He’s huge! And that means he has huge guts! Rip and Tear!
I think Metroid Dread really makes a STRONG case for a serious Samus rework next game (yknow, whenever that is). It's probably the best she's ever felt to control and so much of it would translate perfectly into Smash. Even just giving Samus some Mega Man esque Blaster shenanigans, reworking Missiles etc would go a long way. Those parry attacks are must-haves too.
Still pleasantly surprised with how Sora looks despite my general distaste toward both the character and his series as demonstrated in the past. You can tell a lot of love went into his animations and design, Sakurai looked very excited that he was able to land this deal and most of all... he just looks fun to play. So I'm looking forward to getting my hands on him.
Revealing the true winner of the ballot gave Sora's reveal a nice sense of closure to these years and years of speculation from Smash 4's reveal until today, and putting my personal feelings toward Sora aside it's hard to argue with the literal proven most requested character, period. I'm incredibly happy that they intentionally ended with a bang, and likely the biggest one possible. And y'all thought they didn't care...
