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Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

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Iko MattOrr

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Regarding Metroid, I think they are showing a lot of the game for marketing reasons:
this game does not have a marketing gimmick, the best it has is the E.M.M.I sections, and that's weak for marketing; I mean, it's like if a Mario game was promoted by showing that some levels have autoscrolling sections.

What this game is missinig, is the Mega Mushroom from New Super Mario Bros, the Final Smash from Brawl, the giant egg of Yoshi's New Island, the Super Abilities and equivalent from modern Kirby games, the Anti Gravity of Mario Kart 8, etc.

This game is just an old school Metroidvania game, plain and simple, and they have problem at finding something cool to show in trailers, so they spoil the game because they're not confident enough.

I hope this game will be a success, so Nintendo will learn that you don't necessarily need a marketing gimmick to promote your game, as long as the game itself is good.
 

LiveStudioAudience

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Given that September's fairly empty month for me in terms of new games (especially with me backing off of picking up Sonic Colors for Switch because of its issues) I kind of wish one of the titles coming in October were out now. Tetris Effect, Super Monkey Ball, & Dread all look good, and they're essentially coming out the same week.
 

Cutie Gwen

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Regarding Metroid, I think they are showing a lot of the game for marketing reasons:
this game does not have a marketing gimmick, the best it has is the E.M.M.I sections, and that's weak for marketing; I mean, it's like if a Mario game was promoted by showing that some levels have autoscrolling sections.

What this game is missinig, is the Mega Mushroom from New Super Mario Bros, the Final Smash from Brawl, the giant egg of Yoshi's New Island, the Super Abilities and equivalent from modern Kirby games, the Anti Gravity of Mario Kart 8, etc.

This game is just an old school Metroidvania game, plain and simple, and they have problem at finding something cool to show in trailers, so they spoil the game because they're not confident enough.

I hope this game will be a success, so Nintendo will learn that you don't necessarily need a marketing gimmick to promote your game, as long as the game itself is good.
I'd say EMMI are an effective gimmick and got a ****ton of marketing but if we don't count that, don't Dread's latest spoilery trailers heavily hint at a gimmick though? With the Dread Reports also cheekily alluding to the gimmick. Said thing being
Samus becoming Super Saiyan and getting an install of sorts
 

Iko MattOrr

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I'd say EMMI are an effective gimmick and got a ****ton of marketing but if we don't count that, don't Dread's latest spoilery trailers heavily hint at a gimmick though? With the Dread Reports also cheekily alluding to the gimmick. Said thing being
Samus becoming Super Saiyan and getting an install of sorts
Well, maybe you are right, I don't know...

BTW they reached a point where they felt the need to show up most of the game's world map in order to tell us that the game has a huge map. Who needs a walkthrough when you can just pause the trailer.
 

Cutie Gwen

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Well, maybe you are right, I don't know...

BTW they reached a point where they felt the need to show up most of the game's world map in order to tell us that the game has a huge map. Who needs a walkthrough when you can just pause the trailer.
Considering how the map works in Samus Returns, it merely shows part of a specific area, especially considering SR has seperate item percentages per area
 

Ivander

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Well, maybe you are right, I don't know...

BTW they reached a point where they felt the need to show up most of the game's world map in order to tell us that the game has a huge map. Who needs a walkthrough when you can just pause the trailer.
Yes it has a huge map, but I mean, there's no telling if that's actually all the map. For one, we don't know if it shows all the secret areas or secret spots. And two, for all we know, they could pull a Zero Mission(heck, maybe even a Fusion in regards to endgame) and add an entirely different section or sections later.
 

spicynun

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It seems to me that all the arguments against Conker apply to series/characters against which we brush them off.

First of all, the question should not be can he do all his moves, it should be, can he do enough of his moves to still be faithfully included. And of course he can. He can do all his basic stuff, he can use the frying pan, the guns (if they're made cartoony enough), the bazooka, probably the chainsaw, the spiked bat, etc etc. No, he probably couldn't walk around pissing or visibly drink alcohol, but you don't need every aspect of the character for the character to still be faithful. Or at least for them to be implemented. Pac-Man is treated like nothing has happened since 1984.

I've seen a number of times where people have said "well, these aspects of Master Chief may not work, but look at all of these that can!", and the consensus is usually that you can forego a few elements if you still have the brunt of them remaining. I mean, just the number of times the needler has been raised, and that's a Covenant weapon, not an innately Spartan one. Is swearing and pissing the majority of Conker, because I swore I can remember him doing a bunch of other stuff too.

I mean, Bayonetta was fundamentally altered as a character. They changed her look, they changed a highly prolific part of her attacks, which was incorporating nudity, and they also literally used a family friendly version of her catchphrase in her trailer. I remember having discussions very similar to this prior to her being included. You don't even need to change Conker to include him, you just can't include every part.

As for the supporting cast, almost all of them could make it. Berri, Panther King, the Sunflower, Birdy the scarecrow, the Grim Reaper. They might even be able to include the Great Mighty Poo. It's not like his name is the Great Mighty ****. And the GMP isn't like, the main antagonist or the deuteragonist. He's just a boss.

Not getting Mai didn't stop getting Terry, and she's right up there with Iori, Kyo and Geese in terms of notability.

Those examples aside, should we douse our hopes for Sora because he won't show up with Donald and Goofy? I would call them the second most iconic characters of that series. If Kingdom Hearts gets in, it's going to have a lot more supporting content pared out of it than Conker would.

Because it really is about the character, and the supporting parts flow from there. Would he still be able to be included faithfully? Well you could give him his weaponry and his demeanour, his stage and most of the soundtrack and almost all of the supporting cast. Like I said, you can retain the vulgarity without including the profanity. Wario literally has a fart attack, and one of his idles is him scratching his ass. No character comes bringing the entirety of their series with them anyway, and plenty of characters don't use their full arsenal. You don't always get everything. But you also don't need everything.

I really just champion every character in terms of feasibility, because, I'm sure you can find an exception here and there, but I legitimately think almost all can work without losing their essence. I learned from thinking Bayonetta wouldn't fit. On the basis of feasibility, I advocated for Steve, Isabelle and a Tekken character (all of whom were contentious), I advocate for Travis and Doom Slayer and Scorpion. 2B, Morrigan and KOS-MOS and other characters that might need visual alterations. Regardless of chances, I don't think any of these characters have such a brittle identity that they can't withstand being brought inline with Smash's parameters. And therein I'd include Conker.
D7atgFvWsAMANQQ (2).jpg

The sunflower? I just have a hard time believing this would be perfectly okay in Smash. Also the entire identity of Conker is the adult content. The E3 the game was shown at even had a bar that gave out condoms. The plot is about a hangover. A big part of Conker's personality is drinking and getting drunk. You mentioned earlier that he could slur his words and appear drunk but to me that even seems like too much for an E10+ game. Even when you list off his "basic" moves you added the stipulation "if the guns are cartoony enough" which just shows that they would even have to filter the very basics of his representation. Again I just don't think the equivalencies are accurate between Conker and Master Chief's needler or even Bayonetta's hair. I adore Conker's Bad Fur Day and have replayed the game numerous times but I just don't see any way he could be represented in Smash without his game's identity being removed. Unlike just certain aspects like Bayonetta and Joker. I'm someone who would believe Sora can get in without Disney content, I think Master Chief and Doomslayer can also get in Smash. But I'm also someone who believes GTA will never get in due to the adult nature of the game. (Which according to your philosophy about feasibility, I'm sure you don't agree with). Conker isn't quite at the GTA level, but the entire identity of the game is still the adult content. The mature humor of the game is a core element, the developers have even mentioned so, it's not just some "brittle" identity that just so happens to be a part of the game that could easily be cut.
 
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Will

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For Dread spoiler discussions, well, it's the first new game in the timeline in 19 years with all sorts of questions that fans have been asked seemingly being addressed with all sorts of stuff Metroid hasn't really done before. Plus, Metroid has consistently been the closest Nintendo has to a horror franchise, a lot of people would like to be as blind as possible as **** like Crocomire, SA-X, the Wrecked Ship and more have been best when experienced blind.
Even when I knew about Crocomire, his moment still jumpscared me when I played the game lol
 

Iko MattOrr

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Considering how the map works in Samus Returns, it merely shows part of a specific area, especially considering SR has seperate item percentages per area
Yes it has a huge map, but I mean, there's no telling if that's actually all the map. For one, we don't know if it shows all the secret areas or secret spots. And two, for all we know, they could pull a Zero Mission(heck, maybe even a Fusion in regards to endgame) and add an entirely different section or sections later.
It was an obvious exaggeration but I think you got the point. When they have shown the map in the video, I purposely stopped watching at the screen until I was sure that the map was not there anymore, because I didn't want to be spoiled too much (out of context bosses are already a spoiler enough, at least let me explore on my own).
 

Bobthealligator

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Like, I get it. I do. Fates has an absolute joke of a story, I dislike most of the cast (it says something when Heroes did a better job of portraying Xander than Fates itself did lol), and all in all it's probably my least favorite Fire Emblem. Hell, Corrin is the one Fire Emblem character in Smash I wouldn't feel remotely bad about losing in the next game. But I don't know. I just feel like saying people shouldn't like something from it is going a step or two too far. Plus like, Takumi's neat at least lol.
I wasn't really saying that, it was just a joke jab.
 

Inkling Man

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If Bayonetta can get in without her sexuality, Conker can get in without his beer and vulgarity.
 

pupNapoleon

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Nintendo didn't announce it, though. The game's director did. Plus, it's been made pretty clear they still have plans for DL. Plus, if anything, adding Euden to Smash would make a TON of business sense, as that would get more people to play the game.
The game director is an employee of Nintendo (or contract employee, which is still an employee). Him speaking on the game, is him speaking for Nintendo.

And no, that doesn't make sense- because if Nintendo wanted to drum up support, they would have kept their mouth shut on the game going to a lower standard from this point on. Nintendo announced, "This game isn't getting much of our own support anymore. We are killing this product, please come support it!" It is unfathomable.
 
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JOJONumber691

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If Bayonetta can get in without her sexuality, Conker can get in without his beer and vulgarity.
Yeah, but like he’s getting in before Chief or Phoenix anyways. Also Bayonetta is still specialized in Smash. The main thing toned down was the extent of how much she strips. That’s literally it.
 

pupNapoleon

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I've never liked that logic because it's known that Ultimate as a whole is one big Iwata tribute.

So to try and make a bus for Balloon Fighter to "honor Iwata, dammit!" just feels disrespectful, as if pulling off this massive legal mess of a crossover, which is WAY harder to do than just adding a funny guy wearing balloons, wasn't a fitting tribute.
Ultimate was a request from Iwata.
Balloon Fighter is one of the sole characters Iwata created.

The public doesn't see Smash and go, "That is the work of Iwata!"
Hence, it may be honoring Iwata, but it is not a statue in his honor- something to spread the word on Iwata's creation.

The way I see it, these things aren't even comparable.

Note: I have no idea what you mean by, "So to try and make a bus."
 
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Dinoman96

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Yeah this is all pointless because the real reason Conker isn't getting is simply because Nintendo has no real reason to even really want him, due to the lack of fan demand and also almost complete obscurity their home country (again Pocket Tales and Bad Fur Day weren't released on Game Boy and the Nintendo 64 in Japan, the latter is only available on Xbox consoles there which no one owns). It's not really because he's too adult or whatever.
 
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Idon

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Well Conker's chances of getting in are quite slim even besides the whole vulgarity thing. If it were an issue, it'd simply be icing on the metaphorical "not happening" cake.

Question; why does Milla Maxwell have very little support when contrasted with Velvet Crowe?
Because Velvet appeals to people's... sensibilities more.
 
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MasterCheef

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Next question why are there not bigger SSBU fan-bases for the three below characters?

Ahri ( League of Legends ) via Riot Games & Tencent

Master Chief ( Halo ) via 343 Industries & Microsoft

Phantasy Star Online..___Rep via Sega

Because Velvet appeals to people's... sensibilities more.
I see why thanks.
 
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Shroob

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Next question why are there not bigger SSBU fan-bases for the three below characters?

Ahri ( League of Legends ) via Riot Games & Tencent

Master Chief ( Halo ) via 343 Industries & Microsoft

Phantasy Star Online..___Rep via Sega



I see why thanks.
.....Master Chief has a huge support base?


As for the others, still buying into the leaks, huh.
 

Dinoman96

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Next question why are there not bigger SSBU fan-bases for the three below characters?

Ahri ( League of Legends ) via Riot Games & Tencent

Master Chief ( Halo ) via 343 Industries & Microsoft

Phantasy Star Online..___Rep via Sega



I see why thanks.
I mean, Master Chief has grown a sizeable following as of Ultimate.

I'd say there's just a lot of reservation about it because of the fact that we already got Steve this pass. Also because he feels like an "E3 or bust" kind of deal, and we're on the last character.
 
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Perkilator

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If Bayonetta can get in without her sexuality, Conker can get in without his beer and vulgarity.
Just like Sora can get in without needing characters other than KH OC's, right? Because I want more people to understand that.

Yes I know these are totally different topics of discussion shut up
 

pupNapoleon

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There are currently no unrepresented Nintendo franchises I think need a Fighter.

Just give me some StarTropics and Pro Wrestling Spirits.


Fighters:
Captain Toad/Toadette [Treasure Tracker]
King Hippo [Punch-Out]
Bandana Waddle Dee [Kirby]

Echoes:
10e. Ninten [Ness]
11e. Black Shadow [Captain Falcon]
16e. Impa [Sheik]
27e. Galacta Knight [Meta Knight]
32e. Black Knight [Ike]
35e. Charizard [Pokemon Trainer]
36e. Dixie Kong [Diddy Kong]
64e. Octolings [Inklings]


  1. Ryu Hayabusa [Ninja Gaiden]
  2. Bill Rizer/Lance Bean [Contra]
  3. Arthur [Ghosts ‘n Goblins]
  4. Kunio/Riki [River City]
  5. SV-001 Metal Slug [Metal Slug]
  6. Bub/Bob [Bubble Bobble]
  7. Jill Valentine [Resident Evil]
  8. Morrigan [Darkstalkers]
  9. Nightmare [Soul Calibur]
  10. Kazuma Kiryu [Yakuza]
  11. Rash/Zitz [Battletoads]
  12. Nathan Spencer [Bionic Commando]
So... you think that revolutionary series don't need a character. But that a confirmed dead RPG that already has 1.5 full movesets needs not just a clone, but a visually near-identical clone. I'm glad you can see that this is just a want and has no grounding in logic (and that you only care for NES characters, which I believe you have outright stated, too).

Also. Why only 2 of the Battletoads?
PS Also- how would Bandana Dee work as an echo of Kirby? The only thing he can do which Kirby can do, is float. And Kirby doesn't use Dee's signature moves.
Regarding Metroid, I think they are showing a lot of the game for marketing reasons:
this game does not have a marketing gimmick, the best it has is the E.M.M.I sections, and that's weak for marketing; I mean, it's like if a Mario game was promoted by showing that some levels have autoscrolling sections.

What this game is missinig, is the Mega Mushroom from New Super Mario Bros, the Final Smash from Brawl, the giant egg of Yoshi's New Island, the Super Abilities and equivalent from modern Kirby games, the Anti Gravity of Mario Kart 8, etc.

This game is just an old school Metroidvania game, plain and simple, and they have problem at finding something cool to show in trailers, so they spoil the game because they're not confident enough.

I hope this game will be a success, so Nintendo will learn that you don't necessarily need a marketing gimmick to promote your game, as long as the game itself is good.
You can have a marketing gimmick without it being a gameplay gimmick,
The Crash games were marketed with the gimmick of being, "Cooler than Mario."
Dread could just have the gimmick of, "The game you've been waiting for...for 20 years...is finally here."
 

The Stoopid Unikorn

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Ultimate was a request from Iwata.
Balloon Fighter is one of the sole characters Iwata created.

The public doesn't see Smash and go, "That is the work of Iwata!"
Hence, it may be honoring Iwata, but it is not a statue in his honor- something to spread the word on Iwata's creation.

The way I see it, these things aren't even comparable.

Note: I have no idea what you mean by, "So to try and make a bus."
The public that doesn't see Smash as Iwata's work also wouldn't see Balloon Fighter as Iwata's work, to be fair, because if they can't bother themselves to look up that Iwata had a huge impact in Smash, they wouldn't bother looking up about Balloon Fighter, of all things.

To say that Ultimate isn't a worthy tribute, a worthy "statue in his honor", as you put it, reeks of disrespect and ungratefulness (whether intentional or not, most hopefully not) considering how the Smash 4 devs just slaved their asses off for over 5 years and counting for a game that was meant to honor Iwata immediately after Smash 4's DLC wrapped up. No breaks at all, which is notable because aside from the heavily crunched Melee, there's always been a few years between each Smash game.

And again, it was a request from Iwata, you yourself said it. You recognize that it's a tribute......yet also just go the route of having the "mandatory Iwata tribute" because having the most ambitious and complicated game Sakurai has ever did, in terms of both licensing content and actually making that content, isn't a big enough tribute...and that a bigger one would be Balloon Fighter. That feels almost insulting, honestly.

Reply to Note: I realized I meant bandwagon and was too lazy to edit :lol:
 
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Idon

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...Master Chief has a huge support base?
Well I imagine in the loosest sense he does.

If you ask someone "Wouldn't it be cool if Master Chief was in Smash?" most people would say "yeah" instead of "no" or "who?"
At least compared to most other non-Sephiroth DLC characters anyways.
 

MasterCheef

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As for the others, still buying into the leaks, huh.
it is more of i am just confused as to how their iconic nature does not translate into a bigger fan-base.

Also again i promote these characters because i want their move-sets to be in SSBU.

MC i specifically promote because Smus is very boring especially for those who like to play zoners, like me.

I mean, Master Chief has grown a sizeable following as of Ultimate.

I'd say there's just a lot of reservation about it because of the fact that we already got Steve this pass. Also because he feels like an "E3 or bust" kind of deal, and we're on the last character.
Thank you makes sense
 

pupNapoleon

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The public that doesn't see Smash as Iwata's work also wouldn't see Balloon Fighter as Iwata's work, to be fair, because if they can't bother themselves to look up that Iwata had a huge impact in Smash, they wouldn't bother looking up about Balloon Fighter, of all things.

To say that Ultimate isn't a worthy tribute, a worthy "statue in his honor", as you put it, reeks of disrespect and ungratefulness (whether intentional or not, most hopefully not) considering how the Smash 4 devs just slaved their asses off for over 5 years and counting for a game that was meant to honor Iwata immediately after Smash 4's DLC wrapped up. No breaks at all, which is notable because aside from the heavily crunched Melee, there's always been a few years between each Smash game.

And again, it was a request from Iwata, you yourself said it. You recognize that it's a tribute......yet also just go the route of having the "mandatory Iwata tribute" because having the most ambitious and complicated game Sakurai has ever did, in terms of both licensing content and actually making that content, isn't a big enough tribute...and that a bigger one would be Balloon Fighter. That feels almost insulting, honestly.

Reply to Note: I realized I meant bandwagon and was too lazy to edit :lol:
I guess you and I see it differently; I also think you made a HUGE leap to say that I'm even implying Smash Bros isn't a worthy GAME. I am saying, it doesn't serve the function you see it as being. To me, honoring someone's work is honoring something that they created; Smash, while it was pushed by Iwata, would have been, 'as good as Sakurai could make it anyway. He always puts in his best. Maybe it would be slightly different, but who is to say in what ways? We were told that "everyone is here" was because of the ballot. The game would exist without Iwata, for sure, and was in development since the conclusion of Smash 4 (and we don't know when that started- it could have been decided right after base game, before Iwata's death. The push to make the Switch great from the start was very likely a huge factor). When we don't know what Sakurai actually did in the game due to Iwata, how does that serve as a tribute? That's the difference between a gift you already have lying around the house, and decide suits someone else, versus toiling away to find or create the perfect gift for someone.

By your own logic, Smash is then a tribute to anyone who added anything to the game. Regardless, there isn't much point in a back and forth since we have both stated our opinions. I do appreciate your POV.

Reply to the reply to my note: I have not seen any bandwagon for Balloon Fighter; I could only hope as much existed!
 
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The Stoopid Unikorn

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By your own logic, Smash is then a tribute to anyone who added anything to the game.
Now you're twisting my own logic. Ironic since you tried to call ME out for doing the same, but I digress.

Iwata has special meaning behind Smash, not just for requesting Ultimate, but also because he and Sakurai were the ones who started the idea as a side project back in the late 90s. Without Iwata, there likely wouldn't even be a Smash Bros. today.

With that said...

Regardless, there isn't much point in a back and forth since we have both stated our opinions. I do appreciate your POV.
Glad we ended this on a civil note. :)
 
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pupNapoleon

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Now you're twisting my own logic. Ironic since you tried to call ME out for doing the same, but I digress.

Iwata has special meaning behind Smash, not just for requesting Ultimate, but also because he and Sakurai were the ones who started the idea as a side project back in the late 90s. Without Iwata, there likely wouldn't even be a Smash Bros. today.

With that said...


Glad we ended this on a civil note. :)
Also to note, I was amidst editing my response as you messaged.

And Iwata aside, I think Balloon Fighter would be an incredibly fun and unique character.
 

Eldrake

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I’m cutting myself off from Dread news till release. I think the Chozo General and Kraid definitely should’ve been saved for the actual release.
I hope there are some surprises to look forward too. Maybe the Cunning God of Death will reappear?
Dunno about Ridley himself, but... I've seen a few theories that the purple E.M.M.I. that gets deactivated by the ally(?) Chozo might become R.I.D.L.I. based on it being the color purple.
 

Ivander

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Master Chief ( Halo ) via 343 Industries & Microsoft

Phantasy Star Online..___Rep via Sega
Master Chief has plenty of support. The reason PSO doesn't really is because Phantasy Star stayed in Japan for practically 7 and a half years for the longest time until recently and hardly anybody knew about PSO2 at the time. And considering this is a very Western-influenced board, you can't exactly speculate something that hardly anybody knew about.
.....Master Chief has a huge support base?


As for the others, still buying into the leaks, huh.
I'm pretty sure at this point, the leak is nothing to those actually speculating Phantasy Star. Sure the leak did increase speculation at the time, but if anything, the reason PS has been getting attention lately is because of New Genesis and Sakurai's history with it.
 
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3BitSaurus

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Next question why are there not bigger SSBU fan-bases for the three below characters?

Ahri ( League of Legends ) via Riot Games & Tencent

Master Chief ( Halo ) via 343 Industries & Microsoft

Phantasy Star Online..___Rep via Sega

I see why thanks.
For the first, probably because of how different the console and PC fanbases are. Let alone Nintendo and PC specifically. Like, there's a reason we see more requests for Chief and Doom Slayer than Gordon Freeman, and it's not just because Half-Life was stopped at 2 until very recently. Even as one of the resident LoL stans, I can understand why a lot of people wouldn't give it a thought.

Phantasy Star does bug me a bit, though, as I've mentioned before. For a number of reasons, but seeing the PS threads getting arguably less activity that the LoL ones is really strange to me, because it's a consistent Sega series with presence on Nintendo consoles. By all accounts, you'd think the support base would be bigger.

Like, really, I'm actually curious if someone can drum up a convincing explanation for this.

EDIT: Oooh, saw Ivander's post. That makes sense - I knew there had been a delay in the western launches, but yikes, I had no idea it had been that bad, since I started playing now.
 
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DarthEnderX

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So... you think that revolutionary series don't need a character. But that a confirmed dead RPG that already has 1.5 full movesets needs not just a clone, but a visually near-identical clone.
Right. As an Echo. That's what Echoes are for.

Also. Why only 2 of the Battletoads?
Pimple doesn't really work as an alt/echo of the other two. He's like a foot taller than them, with a completely different moveset. He's like the Haggar of Battletoads. Whereas Rash and Zitz played identically in the original Battletoads.

PS Also- how would Bandana Dee work as an echo of Kirby?
He wouldn't. That's why he's in the Fighters section and not the Echoes section.
 
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DarkFalcon

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(Note: Not spoilers for Dread, just stating what I think is obvious)

There is no way in heck after nearly 2 decades Ridley won't be in Dread. This game's cinematography looks out of this world and there is absolutely no way they are gonna miss the opportunity to make a insane visual spectacle Ridley fight.

I do not care if he's "dead". Super Metroid came out a billion years ago. They can make up something like some cells survived the Zebes explosion and he took a while to regenerate, which is why the real Ridley hasn't appeared since Super. Killing off your most marketable villain in the Franchise permanently is the most non Nintendo thing I can think of.
 
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