Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[NonSpecificGuy]

Yeah, Rayman has just been a recurring instance of unfortunate timing. He was huge in Wii U and would’ve been perfect for the base game or DLC and he should’ve been a shoo-in for next Smash but he didn’t take off in Japan like Ubi and Nintendo hoped, he hasn’t gotten a REAL new game since Legends, and Nintendo’s overall direction for tackling new partnerships in this games DLC just made him narrowly miss it.

Rayman’s best shot should’ve been base Ultimate but the Ballot is a double edged sword. On one hand we did get some the most heavily requested fan picks of the last decade in the Belmonts, Ridley, K. Rool, and arguably Isabelle and Inkling. The reason that kind of puts Rayman in a bit of a disadvantage is simply because there was no way Rayman was going to live up to the giants that were those 5 and all the other Veterans that were cut within the Ballot. It’s a shame but it’s the truth. The only way Rayman could likely make it in the future, if he’s not one of the last two (which sadly seems unlikely), is either another ballot, or a new game with perfect timing and great sales that would warrant an even bigger Rayman fanbase than there is right now.

 

[ZelDan]

The only western characters I have any strong interest in are Master Chief, Shovel Knight, and Dixie Kong. If these 3, or at the very least 2 of them, were to make it into Smash, I'd be fine with Nintendo/Sakurai going all in on Japanese characters after that (well, I actually wouldn't even be against that now necessarily as long as I get some Japanese characters I like in the process too)

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I agree with a lot of your points and understand the argument but it is some evidence to back my agreement. Rayman has a lot of supporters historically on this and several websites. He also polls high in nearly all Smash polls that are out there.

He fits the bill of being a long-running franchise character like Megaman, Sonic, Mario, etc. His series has sold over 26 Million Units (this doesn't include downloads of phone games/iOS products).

I do think his support has waned in the DLC cycle but I think a lot of that is that his fanbase has given up hope and many have jumped onto the Crash Bandicoot bandwagon who is a very similar character. (Popular Western Platformer who initially appeared on PS1 in the late 1990s).


With regard to Rayman and Smash, it almost seems like he is cursed in many aspects.

At the same time, Black Mage historically had more support here on Cloud, now we have 2 FF characters and how many people still want Black Mage more than the likes of Terra? Support on this site doesn't really mean as much as we think, especially if we look at the most positively received DLC characters compared to their support threads. Not to say Rayman has no fans in the west, just that this site isn't as important or as good of a sign of what to expect as we think

 

[Louie G.]

I think no fanbase (with the exception of maybe Geno) has been drug through the mud with Smash as much as Rayman.

As far as third parties go at least (Dixie Kong and a Rhythm Heaven character were literally planned and abandoned, so there's really no contest there IMO), I honestly agree.

For Rayman to have appeared in a non-playable role for two games in a row, arguably losing content in Ultimate (no more Globox or Barbara) and then his odds not looking all that great for the remaining DLC either, he stands as a very interesting case since he's pretty much the only third party character who has been in a non-playable, non-AT or costume role for this long without getting some sort of retribution. I feel like Rayman should have at least gotten an Assist Trophy, but perhaps that kind of role wasn't worth overseas negotiation about character portrayal. I guess Shovel Knight got an AT just fine but there's gotta be a difference between an indie company and a big one like Ubisoft.

Nowadays Rayman just falls into a difficult spot as his support has mellowed out a good deal since Smash 4 and many have come to realize that his presence in Smash's home country is near non-existent. It's always an uphill climb for a western company to get involved with the fray, so if anything it's actually quite the accomplishment that Rayman was able to get his feet wet as early as he did. I feel like he'll get his chance someday - Ubisoft and Nintendo are still tight - but he might have to be patient for a while. For now we should just hope he gets a new game, lmao.

 

[MBRedboy31]

What we really need is for some Western game corporation to make their own massive, third-party-filled crossover, so that Smash doesn’t have to singlehandedly shoulder the entire world‘s intellectual property alone. Edit: I’d like to see more diversely sourced characters in Smash, but, there’s some notable realistic limits on that, so having a second crossover game to play and speculate about would be nice.

 

[volbound1700]

Yeah, Rayman has just been a recurring instance of unfortunate timing. He was huge in Wii U and would’ve been perfect for the base game or DLC and he should’ve been a shoo-in for next Smash but he didn’t take off in Japan like Ubi and Nintendo hoped, he hasn’t gotten a REAL new game since Legends, and Nintendo’s overall direction for tackling new partnerships in this games DLC just made him narrowly miss it.

Rayman’s best shot should’ve been base Ultimate but the Ballot is a double edged sword. On one hand we did get some the most heavily requested fan picks of the last decade in the Belmonts, Ridley, K. Rool, and arguably Isabelle and Inkling. The reason that kind of puts Rayman in a bit of a disadvantage is simply because there was no way Rayman was going to live up to the giants that were those 5 and all the other Veterans that were cut within the Ballot. It’s a shame but it’s the truth. The only way Rayman could likely make it in the future, if he’s not one of the last two (which sadly seems unlikely), is either another ballot, or a new game with perfect timing and great sales that would warrant an even bigger Rayman fanbase than there is right now.

All of you have summed up probably my frustration with the DLC, it is not necessarily the characters in it but the ones that are NOT in it. I felt like Rayman really deserved a spot, especially with the content to date. He was probably my #1 third-party request going into Ultimate with the exception of maybe Simon Belmont.

We have gotten so many characters over him that I felt he should have been in front of. I thought Rayman would be in the Base or early DLC only to see it not happen.

It is at the point now that I don't really expect him. Rayman's primary console seems to be Nintendo and his games do seem to sale decently although they generally have terrible launches (if you look over their life time, they are competitive). However, he is definitely in decline as a Franchise.

 

[Perkilator]

Yeah, I'm inclined to agree. The grounded, "boring" designs actually loop back around to unique when you stack 'em up against the rest of the roster. Somehow, we've never had a full-body armor knight character so far.

Sir Arthur is ready to do weeping

 

[Technomage]

Remembering the conversation we had on Chun-Li earlier today (in addition to watching a vid making fun of MvC Infinite), I gotta say that if Chun-Li gets added, I'd hope she at least at one point (like a victory animation or a taunt) makes that baby doll face from MvCI. XD

 

[Noipoi]

It’s alright fellas. In five years Rayman will be relevant again for about five minutes until fading back into obscurity for a decade!

Such is the way of things.

 

[volbound1700]

I guess this is the way I wish Nintendo would have looked at it. Perhaps do a point system.

Points for Nostalgia. Where you on Arcades, NES, SNES, N64, Gamecube, etc.? How old is your Franchise and is it still around? Where do you rank all-time in Gaming History?

Go through the top selling Gaming Franchises and try to get truly iconic characters whether they are Japanese, Western, etc.

Does the Franchise have a character that fits Smash? (Call of Duty, Sims, and Sports Franchises for example do not tend to have characters that are conducive for Smash).

Does the Franchise have outlets outside of Video Games that will make it popular? i.e. the Castlevania show on Netflix which probably has made more money than any of the Castlevania games.

Many of the Franchises fit that bill but not all of them. However, I am not a producer of Smash. I imagine move set and technical features play a huge part in selecting a character. That might be why Rayman has been passed over so much.

 

[chocolatejr9]

You kid but if a new DKC game is announced (depending on her role), she could make an appearance. I think we are underestimating the chances of another first party rep appearing. I do think a Legend of Zelda or Pokemon character are more likely.

Something something Dragalia Lost.

 

[GoodGrief741]

I'd say what Rayman needs more than anything is for Ubisoft to stop pretending they give a **** about him for cool gamer points and start actually treating him like a viable IP. The UbiArt engine is right there, I imagine that there's plenty of Ubi employees that would be happy to go work on a 2D platformer instead of the 80th Tom Clancy shooter, they could totally bring him back for relatively cheap and it's the kind of game that would do great on the Switch.

They are making that Sands of Time remake and there was also that Gods and Monsters BotW clone so that's a good sign that they're diversifying their portfolio even if it's woefully slow.

What we really need is for some Western game corporation to make their own massive, third-party-filled crossover, so that Smash doesn’t have to singlehandedly shoulder the entire world‘s intellectual property alone. Edit: I’d like to see more diversely sourced characters in Smash, but, there’s some notable realistic limits on that, so having a second crossover game to play and speculate about would be nice.

I said it before but I'll say it again: give Sony their own Smash. Give Microsoft their own Smash. Then watch as every popular third party in existence makes it into a crossover fighter.

 

[SharkLord]

He is the Lorax and he speaks for the trees.

That picture is outdated

This is the Lorax now

Feel old yet?

 

[Dan Quixote]

Does the Franchise have a character that fits Smash? (Call of Duty, Sims, and Sports Franchises for example do not tend to have characters that are conducive for Smash).

Dude I'd love a Sim in Smash actually lol. It's one of the best selling franchises ever, has Nintendo presence, and has enough wacky goings-on to make for a moveset. It could 100% work.

Also Captain Price from CoD would be hype and you all know it

 

[Ivander]

They are making that Sands of Time remake and there was also that Gods and Monsters BotW clone so that's a good sign that they're diversifying their portfolio even if it's woefully slow.

Gods and Monsters came out in December 2020. It's under the new title Immortals Fenyx Rising.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Also Captain Price from CoD would be hype and you all know it

Bold of you to assume I know who that is.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Gods and Monsters came out in December 2020. It's under the new title Immortals Fenyx Rising.

Shhh. We don't talk about that...

 

[UltimateCyborgOverlord]

That picture is outdated
View attachment 318302
This is the Lorax now

Feel old yet?

He got tired of fighting for tree justice and decided to just destroy the worlds of the universe instead. He spoke for the trees... and no one listened.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Also Captain Price from CoD would be hype and you all know it

Trailer begins, Cloud is bombing a Shinra facility with idk Joker and Inkling. Suddenly he gets knocked down by an explosion, screen cuts to black, and you hear

"On your feet soldier, we - are - leaving!"

Gods and Monsters came out in December 2020. It's under the new title Immortals Fenyx Rising.

I know but that's a dumb name so I'm still calling it Gods and Monsters.

 

[Ivander]

Shhh. We don't talk about that...

Wait, why? What was wrong with it?

 

[MaplePie]

First off welcome back to the forum.

Now that things are back, I shall continue to support Otto Matic, despite his chances being 0.

Do you all have that one pick you think would be awesome, but also think they have no realistic chance?

Porky Minch.

I think he would be the one to finish the MOTHER series with one final bang, but I have to admit that he is still very unlikely even though there is currently no spirit of him. There would be a lot of controversy regarding his inclusion compared to another third-party.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Dude I'd love a Sim in Smash actually lol. It's one of the best selling franchises ever, has Nintendo presence, and has enough wacky goings-on to make for a moveset. It could 100% work.

Also Captain Price from CoD would be hype and you all know it

If the Final Smash is other fighters being tossed into a pool without a ladder, then EA's involvement in Ultimate will be entirely worth it.

 

[UserKev]

All of you have summed up probably my frustration with the DLC, it is not necessarily the characters in it but the ones that are NOT in it. I felt like Rayman really deserved a spot, especially with the content to date. He was probably my #1 third-party request going into Ultimate with the exception of maybe Simon Belmont.

We have gotten so many characters over him that I felt he should have been in front of. I thought Rayman would be in the Base or early DLC only to see it not happen.

It is at the point now that I don't really expect him. Rayman's primary console seems to be Nintendo and his games do seem to sale decently although they generally have terrible launches (if you look over their life time, they are competitive). However, he is definitely in decline as a Franchise.

Yeah. It can be diminishing. Like in my recently posted thread, there is no right or wrong side to the debate. I mean, Smash being a Japanese IP gives it priority by default. Smash, being a celebration of gaming history, will give us the desire to want our Western mascots, that will create conflict.

 

[SKX31]

What we really need is for some Western game corporation to make their own massive, third-party-filled crossover, so that Smash doesn’t have to singlehandedly shoulder the entire world‘s intellectual property alone.

Well, Fortnite's already well on its way to doing tha - gets shot.

Trailer begins, Cloud is bombing a Shinra facility with idk Joker and Inkling. Suddenly he gets knocked down by an explosion, screen cuts to black, and you hear

"On your feet soldier, we - are - leaving!"

Camera proceeds to reveal not only Price, but also a Dharkon-controlled Snake in the background. Who would've hit Cloud with a 360noscope Nikita if it weren't for Price's interference.

 

[N3ON]

I think no fanbase (with the exception of maybe Geno) has been drug through the mud with Smash as much as Rayman. He got trophies in 4 but no appearance. I honestly thought that was a hint that Rayman would be in the base game for the next Smash. Now with each DLC pick, hope in his appearance keeps wanning.

I think you're being a bit hyperbolic. Rayman has notable Smash popularity but his series is mostly one-sided in appeal, his games are intermittent, his series is successful but not like... in the stratosphere (especially basically everything after the numbered games), he's really just one viable contender among many.

Him not being included is perfectly understandable, since most viable third-party candidates don't end up getting included. Across three games, there's only been fourteen original third-parties. You know how many notable third-party series exist?

If you see him getting a trophy and a spirit and the Rabbids getting content as being dug through the mud, that's on par with when people feel slighted their AT wasn't playable, which is just displaced entitlement. He very easily could've been nothing. His merits are not so overwhelming that his absence would be at all unfathomable.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

It is kinda crazy that the US, who is probably alongside Japan as the region with the most original VG IP output, has one character that was made in that region… Dark Samus…

 

[GoodGrief741]

Well, Fortnite's already well on its way to doing tha - gets shot.



Camera proceeds to reveal not only Price, but also a Dharkon-controlled Snake in the background. Who would've hit Cloud with a 360noscope Nikita if it weren't for Price's interference.

If a CoD character doesn't have a 360noscope leading into a kill montage as their Final Smash is there even a point?

It would probably be a killstreak though but still

 

[Noipoi]

It is kinda crazy that the US, who is probably alongside Japan as the region with the most original VG IP output, has one character that was made in that region… Dark Samus…

I will not rest until Sans is playable in Smash 6.

 

[UltimateCyborgOverlord]

Imagine for a moment: The trailer begins!

Everybody is fighting Metal Gear Rex, it's crazy! Explosions everywhere! Snake is dodging, Link's trying to shoot in midair with his arrow, but to no avail. Min Min's trying to punch which of course doesn't work. Everyone's trying to fight Metal Gear but just when it's trying to launch the big one to finish them off, a GIANT EXPLOSION ENDS METAL GEAR REX! KABLOOOOOOOOOOOEY!

Everyone gets sent flying into the snow. Snow blows, smoke billows, fire too. Eventually the fighters see Metal Gear Rex in a pile, destroyed, and in a recreation of the iconic scene, Fighter 10 is standing on top of it:

 

[3BitSaurus]

I know but that's a dumb name so I'm still calling it Gods and Monsters.

Slightly off-topic, but wasn't that game's name changed due to another party threatening to sue Ubisoft?

 

[SNEKeater]

Yeah, Rayman has just been a recurring instance of unfortunate timing. He was huge in Wii U and would’ve been perfect for the base game or DLC and he should’ve been a shoo-in for next Smash but he didn’t take off in Japan like Ubi and Nintendo hoped, he hasn’t gotten a REAL new game since Legends, and Nintendo’s overall direction for tackling new partnerships in this games DLC just made him narrowly miss it.

Rayman’s best shot should’ve been base Ultimate but the Ballot is a double edged sword. On one hand we did get some the most heavily requested fan picks of the last decade in the Belmonts, Ridley, K. Rool, and arguably Isabelle and Inkling. The reason that kind of puts Rayman in a bit of a disadvantage is simply because there was no way Rayman was going to live up to the giants that were those 5 and all the other Veterans that were cut within the Ballot. It’s a shame but it’s the truth. The only way Rayman could likely make it in the future, if he’s not one of the last two (which sadly seems unlikely), is either another ballot, or a new game with perfect timing and great sales that would warrant an even bigger Rayman fanbase than there is right now.

I feel that Rayman might have been added if Everyone is Here never happened and Ultimate's gimmick was a different thing. With more time to develop base newcomers, I think Rayman could have made it. At this point I think that's his best chance to get in. I personally don't expect him to show up as DLC unless he's announced at this E3 and he gets announced alongside CP11 which would probably be more appealing to the japanese crowd. And even with that, as others I feel his popularity has kinda faded during Ultimate, at least since the DLC speculation started.

If Ubisoft brings him back in some meaningful way in the next years and there's a significant fan demand I could see him having a chance in the base roster of the next Smash game.

 

[volbound1700]

It is kinda crazy that the US, who is probably alongside Japan as the region with the most original VG IP output, has one character that was made in that region… Dark Samus…

Two... Steve.

USA actually has done more when you factor in PC games as well. There are entire genres of gaming not represented in Japan (for example 4x Strategy games). USA is also probably 60-70% of the video game market.

Your post sums up my issue with how Smash DLC has been approached. United States is the primary market for Video Games (or practically any major consumer good) yet there is little effort to utilize it in the DLC pack.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Two... Steve.

Steve is from Sweden.

 

[7NATOR]

Imagine for a moment: The trailer begins!

Everybody is fighting Metal Gear Rex, it's crazy! Explosions everywhere! Snake is dodging, Link's trying to shoot in midair with his arrow, but to no avail. Min Min's trying to punch which of course doesn't work. Everyone's trying to fight Metal Gear but just when it's trying to launch the big one to finish them off, a GIANT EXPLOSION ENDS METAL GEAR REX! KABLOOOOOOOOOOOEY!

Everyone gets sent flying into the snow. Snow blows, smoke billows, fire too. Eventually the fighters see Metal Gear Rex in a pile, destroyed, and in a recreation of the iconic scene, Fighter 10 is standing on top of it:
View attachment 318307

It be a weird twist since I Imagine that the presence of Metal Gear Rex is gonna make people think we getting another Metal Gear character.

I guess if they really focus on Sonic dodging attacks, people might suspect it's something Sonic related, but in any case I think this would be a good Smash trailer, since you have the characters interacting with each other in trying to stop Metal Gear Rex, and you don't exactly know from the start who the trailer is for, Which is kind of a sticking point for why certain trailers (Byleth, Min Min, Pyra/Mythra) aren't considered as hype

To be honest though, I actually think Shadow's Trailer would be something based on BOTH Galeem and Dharkon. they are the big threats of World of Light, and we haven't seen a trailer where they both in it. The whole thing about Sonic Adventure 2, and by extension Sonic and Shadow is that they are both Light and Dark Parallels to each other, which contrasts with Galeem and Dharkon. Plus there could be a reference to Sonic showing up late to stop Tabuu's Off Wave, by Shadow Showing up to stop whatever Super Move Galeem and Dharkon do (especially if Sonic tries the same thing, but fails in the trailer

 

[volbound1700]

Steve is from Sweden.

Well, you learn something every day. My bad. Sweden makes some great games. I have been playing Paradox lately. I doubt many of you play their games. They are Grand Strategy and only on PC to my knowledge.

 

[kirbsmash]

Sony their own Smash

Playstaion
All stars doesn't exist, i guess?

 

[MBRedboy31]

Well, Fortnite's already well on its way to doing tha - gets shot.

Well, I moreso mean one where the characters are mostly uniquely developed, like with the non-clone characters in Smash.

Like, Brawlhalla has a bunch of crossover characters, but all of them except for Rayman are functionally skins of another character and thus share their slot on the CSS (although you can opt to have a crossover skin be the “main” icon on the CSS instead of their base.)

This game that I’m asking for doesn’t even need to be a fighting game, but it does need to be one where the characters can play distinctly from each other in large enough a manner that it’s worth speculating about playstyles and stuff.

 

[7NATOR]

Oh yeah, that is a question I want to ask

Which game do you think has the better crossovers? Smash Ultimate or Fortnite?

 

[GilTheGreat19]

Like, Brawlhalla has a bunch of crossover characters, but all of them except for Rayman are functionally skins of another character and thus share their slot on the CSS (although you can opt to have a crossover skin be the “main” icon on the CSS instead of their base.)

Not to mention most of them aren't video game-related crossovers



ALSO, I had a company in mind, it's a big one, but it's a mobile game company...
Supercell.
Imagine if we get CoC content lol
Of course non of their characters or games made Nintendo appearances, and I did research to verify this, so unironic speculation wouldn't really lead us anywhere. But thinking about it for fun is, well, fun. lol

 

[Technomage]

Oh yeah, that is a question I want to ask

Which game do you think has the better crossovers? Smash Ultimate or Fortnite?

First, I gotta know: What crossover content does FN have?