Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[Evil Trapezium]

You see this is a good idea but it doesn't get me Frog in 3D so I don't like it

For real though, if the party members just show up for individual attacks I don't see how that's different from Rex showing up in Pythra's taunts. I imagine the cast of CT would be somewhere between Nana and Rex in terms of detail in the model so it'd be fine.

And now you made me realize that to better differentiate them in case of mirror matches the party members could have palette swaps too and that's even more exciting

Rex is disabled in 8 player smash, like with Pokemon Trainer and Morgana. Unlike Smash 4, the Smash team made sure that 8 Player Smash works with every character and every stage so I'd say it'd be better to make them the original 2d spirtes in 8 player smash, with 3d models in 4 player. Then you can trade re-imagined models for retro nostalgia for 8 players.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I meant to delete that comment in the first place but the issue is that we have just had a DLC pack that is full of popular Japanese IP at the expense of popular Western IP. It would be more of the same.

I was afraid it would be read wrong so I tried to delete it but it showed up in another reply that I did.

Not at all, TWEWY has one of the most unique styles out of any video game, it'd be radically different from well, anything already in Smash with the mid to late 2000's style culture, especially with the aesthetics, designs and OST, I recommend watching a lets play at the very least, TWEWY is a masterpiece

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Funny how there would be two characters from Shibuya if a Twewy rep got in.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[volbound1700]

I get where you're coming from but that's basically the entire history of Smash so I don't think being too Japanese is a detriment in terms of variety. If anything it helps to stand out, as the most Japanese character we have in this Pass is I guess Sephiroth so there's a lot of room for a more overtly local character in terms of background and aesthetics. Maybe if it were the first Pass and we had Joker already then TWEWY might feel redundant but not as of right now.

I would say either Byleth, Hero, Mythra/Pyra, and Joker are even more Japanese (in the sense we are referencing) than Sephiroth. Sephiroth has a big presence in the West.

I think that characters that are big in both Japan and the West are the Win-Win. This is why I think Ryu Hayabusa is one of the best options still on the table and would have added him already had I been Sakurai.

Most of the third parties initially added to Smash were HUGE in all regions of the Global so this really wasn't an issue until Smash Ultimate.

 

[Shroob]

I would say either Byleth, Hero, Mythra/Pyra, and Joker are even more Japanese (in the sense we are referencing) than Sephiroth. Sephiroth has a big presence in the West.

I think that characters that are big in both Japan and the West are the Win-Win. This is why I think Ryu Hayabusa is one of the best options still on the table and would have added him already had I been Sakurai.

Most of the third parties initially added to Smash were HUGE in all regions of the Global so this really wasn't an issue until Smash Ultimate.

Aesthetically, Sephiroth is THE most anime character we've gotten, hands down.


Long flowing hair? Check
Edge out the ass? Check
Extremely oversized sword? Check
Fanservice?

Double check.

 

[Nekoo]

Neku would be too based for Smash.
I'd drop Sora for him, that's to tell you how much id scream if he'd get in.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Rex is disabled in 8 player smash, like with Pokemon Trainer and Morgana. Unlike Smash 4, the Smash team made sure that 8 Player Smash works with every character and every stage so I'd say it'd be better to make them the original 2d spirtes in 8 player smash, with 3d models in 4 player. Then you can trade re-imagined models for retro nostalgia for 8 players.

I did not now this. Your solution is probably the way to go then.

I would say either Byleth, Hero, Mythra/Pyra, and Joker are even more Japanese (in the sense we are referencing) than Sephiroth. Sephiroth has a big presence in the West.

I think that characters that are big in both Japan and the West are the Win-Win. This is why I think Ryu Hayabusa is one of the best options still on the table and would have added him already had I been Sakurai.

Most of the third parties initially added to Smash were HUGE in all regions of the Global so this really wasn't an issue until Smash Ultimate.

I thought you were saying TWEWY is too Japanese in its aesthetic. If you meant appeal then let me tell you that TWEWY appeals to East and West equally.

I also thought you were referring to likelihood rather than just your personal preferences regarding what characters should be added. Can't really comment on that, you're entitled to your own opinions.

 

[volbound1700]

Aesthetically, Sephiroth is THE most anime character we've gotten, hands done.


Long flowing hair? Check
Edge out the ass? Check
Extremely oversized sword? Check
Fanservice?


View attachment 318297

Double check.

Yeah but he is HUGELY popular in the West as well. I am talking about characters who are moderately popular in the West and primarily appeal to Japanese audience. It isn't necessarily Japanese characters that I meant but rather characters that are really only primarily popular and desired by the gaming audience in Japan. I am NOT even talking about how the game is designed but whether who is the target audience. Most Westerners would not recognize TWEWY and definitely don't want it over, let's say, Crash Bandicoot.

Heck some Japanese Characters are probably more popular in the West than Japan: Megaman, Sonic, and Pacman seem that way.

This was why I meant to delete that comment and did NOT want it posted .

 

[GoodGrief741]

Aesthetically, Sephiroth is THE most anime character we've gotten, hands down.


Long flowing hair? Check
Edge out the ass? Check
Extremely oversized sword? Check
Fanservice?


View attachment 318297

Double check.

He also literally speaks Japanese in all versions.

 

[Idon]

Aesthetically, Sephiroth is THE most anime character we've gotten, hands down.


Long flowing hair? Check
Edge out the ass? Check
Extremely oversized sword? Check
Fanservice?


View attachment 318297

Double check.

I dunno about that...

I mean this literally Goku.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Aesthetically, Sephiroth is THE most anime character we've gotten, hands down.


Long flowing hair? Check
Edge out the ass? Check
Extremely oversized sword? Check
Fanservice?


View attachment 318297

Double check.

Don't forget the bombastic character theme and assymetrical wing

Rex is disabled in 8 player smash, like with Pokemon Trainer and Morgana. Unlike Smash 4, the Smash team made sure that 8 Player Smash works with every character and every stage so I'd say it'd be better to make them the original 2d spirtes in 8 player smash, with 3d models in 4 player. Then you can trade re-imagined models for retro nostalgia for 8 players.

Rex is a virgin loser whereas the CHADS known as Lucca, Marle, Robo, Frog and Ayla who will defy the game's limitations by existing

 

[Shroob]

I dunno about that...

I mean this literally Goku.
View attachment 318298

Erdrick's definitely a close 2nd.


But he didn't ignite the Internet's THIRST for awhile.

 

[volbound1700]

I did not now this. Your solution is probably the way to go then.


I thought you were saying TWEWY is too Japanese in its aesthetic. If you meant appeal then let me tell you that TWEWY appeals to East and West equally.

I also thought you were referring to likelihood rather than just your personal preferences regarding what characters should be added. Can't really comment on that, you're entitled to your own opinions.

Let me put it to you this way, if you polled most fans about TWEWY vs. Doom, Crash, Rayman, Ninja Gaiden, etc. I would say 95% of Westerners would prefer one of the other IPs over it. It is probably a good series and would be an alright fit in Smash but we are down to 2 spots and there are major Western IP that has been ignored to date that most of us want in.

 

[SKX31]

My personal favorites are Kha’Zix, Nocturne, Nasus, Cho’gath, Nidalee, and Zed but I don’t know if any of them are very likely.

I’m kind of curious if Smash is big enough to influence the popularity of a LoL character. For example, if a less popular character like Nocturne was chosen for Smash, Do you think just being in Smash would then make it popular? I think LoL is bigger than Smash overall so I’m not sure how much of a difference it would actually make.

That's a good question actually. I find that very difficult to call, especially since we're talking about if an appearance on a Nintendo-exclusive game can boost the popularity of a character in a free-to-play game. I'm leaning towards a cautious yes since you know that that game's fanbase would broadly feel validated over the fact that one of their characters get to fight a couple globally recognized characters (even if fans of other characters may kinda disagree).

Aesthetically, Sephiroth is THE most anime character we've gotten, hands down.


Long flowing hair? Check
Edge out the ass? Check
Extremely oversized sword? Check
Fanservice?


View attachment 318297

Double check.

Don't forget one of the most anime attacks out there (which has only been outdone by the really anime Photon Edge):

 

[volbound1700]

I love how we started an entire discussion off a comment that I meant to delete.

 

[UltimateCyborgOverlord]

"Oh man it could be Reimu, it could be Chief, Hayabusa, Adol, Dante, anybody!"

Sakurai in your timeline:

That was the most beautiful thing I've seen in a while, and I needed that because holy bananas has today been TERRIBLE. Though I nearly met Jane Fonda tho, so that's pretty neat.

Smashboards is no longer dead, hooray.

I know last week I was pessimistic on double dips, but there is one double dip that I find interesting: Square.

Remember when Vergeben said that he heard Erdrick, Lumnary, Sephiroth, and Chrono the most from his Square sources? In hindsight, I think that is something to entertain, even if I still am pessimistic on double dips. Chrono Trigger also lines up well with what I am expecting for CP11, a smaller reveal at the end of the day.

Dude, I would LOVE if Crono showed up. I don't believe in double dips, but if there's any double dip I'm okay with, it's this time traveling SSJ4 Gogeta lookin dude!

The music ALONE would justify it, as would (for me) the Toriyama nature of his design. My LORD I would love this. IMO, this is one of the BEST characters they could add. If Crono is the shill character for a "HD 2D Remake" of Chrono Trigger or whatever, then by all means, let it happen hahaha!

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Let me put it to you this way, if you polled most fans about TWEWY vs. Doom, Crash, Rayman, Ninja Gaiden, etc. I would say 95% of Westerners would prefer one of the other IPs over it. It is probably a good series and would be an alright fit in Smash but we are down to 2 spots and there are major Western IP that has been ignored to date that most of us want in.

Who do you presume to speak for?

 

[GoodGrief741]

Let me put it to you this way, if you polled most fans about TWEWY vs. Doom, Crash, Rayman, Ninja Gaiden, etc. I would say 95% of Westerners would prefer one of the other IPs over it. It is probably a good series and would be an alright fit in Smash but we are down to 2 spots and there are major Western IP that has been ignored to date that most of us want in.

To compare the appeal in the West of a relatively niche Japanese franchise to 3 Western franchises seems like an obviously biased question. Especially when we're dealing with a crossover in which the likelihood of getting a Western franchise is a longshot. I could compare TWEWY to Momotaro Densetsu, Mystical Ninja, Taiko no Tatsujin and Puyo Puyo and tell you that 95% of Westerners prefer TWEWY and it would be equally anecdotal at worst.

Also I'd dispute Rayman getting that level of preference from Westerners in 2021 but that's neither here nor there.

 

[volbound1700]

Who do you presume to speak for?

Well for one, look at the Support Threads on here.

Two, look at Support Threads on any other Smash fan site

Three, look at Youtube videos.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Gotta say this, the attitude of thinking “this could’ve been one of the five or so frontrunners” leads to disappointment and excruciatingly cynical speculation.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Who do you presume to speak for?

He is the Lorax and he speaks for the trees.

 

[Technomage]

Gotta say this, the attitude of thinking “this could’ve been one of the five or so frontrunners” leads to disappointment and excruciatingly cynical speculation.

Well, we are pretty close to E3; that's probably why we've been having more unpleasant debates these days.

I, on the other hand, am kinda more concerned with just getting it all over with ASAP, than with getting my most wanted characters.

 

[Noipoi]

Also I'd dispute Rayman getting that level of preference from Westerners in 2021 but that's neither here nor there.

Being a Rayman fan is suffering.

 

[volbound1700]

To compare the appeal in the West of a relatively niche Japanese franchise to 3 Western franchises seems like an obviously biased question. Especially when we're dealing with a crossover in which the likelihood of getting a Western franchise is a longshot. I could compare TWEWY to Momotaro Densetsu, Mystical Ninja, Taiko no Tatsujin and Puyo Puyo and tell you that 95% of Westerners prefer TWEWY and it would be equally anecdotal at worst.

Also I'd dispute Rayman getting that level of preference from Westerners in 2021 but that's neither here nor there.

Rayman's support thread on these Boards has been on the Front Page pretty regularly since Ultimate was announced. You saw the hype about his fake leak in Smash 4. I would say he still has a HUGE following.

I get what you are saying but that is the point. People want at least one of these MAJOR Western franchise in the game. I could be wrong, but I think each of the franchises that I listed is in the top 25 in all-time sales. With the exception of Banjo and maybe Steve (he is popular in both places), this has been a Japanese centric DLC process.

I mean if you want to go the Square route, Sora, Lara Croft, and Chrono are better picks than a character from TWEWY.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Being a Rayman fan is suffering.

At least you're not starting to wonder if Beyond Good and Evil 2 is a myth or not...

 

[WeirdChillFever]

At least you're not starting to wonder if Beyond Good and Evil 2 is a myth or not...

At least you’re not suffering like us Yoshi’s Cookie fans.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I think Neku's distinct nature is something that might given him a certain advantage in the field of Square Enix characters. Don't get me wrong virtually all the speculated front runners from SE could bring something interesting to the table but even as someone with only a passing interest in TWEWY, I can see that he really would stand out in Smash, visual design included.

 

[volbound1700]

With Rayman, I am wondering if Ubisoft's decision to make Rayman Legends multiplatform in the Wii U era and delay the launch hurt his chances. Nintendo can be pretty petty about stuff based on its history.

It has hurt Nintendo in the past though. Funny we are talking about Capcom and Square-Enix when some of their best IP in the past has ended up on Sony systems vs. Nintendo (especially Square-Enix).

 

[Cosmic77]

I mean, there's a 95% chance a first-party will end up being a character created by a Japanese studio, so I don't think it's really worth pouting about Nintendo characters not being Western. Third-parties are more understandable, but it's not like suddenly getting Banjo and Steve meant we were ever getting to a point where things would be 50/50 between Japan and the West.

Personally, I wouldn't lose sleep over it. It can be frustrating, but Japanese characters will likely always take priority.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

Also I'd dispute Rayman getting that level of preference from Westerners in 2021 but that's neither here nor there.

Rayman support is weird. In Sm4sh, Rayman was seen as one of the third parties to add, although I think the ArtsyOmni leak and Rayman Legends being fresh in peoples minds might have inflated him a bit. But in Smash Ultimate, while I would not say Rayman is unpopular, I think most people can tell that his support has taken a dip, at least in how vocal it is. Maybe it is due to the Ubisoft Miis, maybe it is a bit of lost hope. I also think that it might be due to Rayman having some issues overseas.

 

[Dinoman96]

With Rayman, I am wondering if Ubisoft's decision to make Rayman Legends multiplatform in the Wii U era and delay the launch hurt his chances. Nintendo can be pretty petty about stuff based on its history.

It has hurt Nintendo in the past though. Funny we are talking about Capcom and Square-Enix when some of their best IP in the past has ended up on Sony systems vs. Nintendo (especially Square-Enix).

I don't think that really matters. I think what kills Rayman is his almost complete obscurity in Japan. And he probably doesn't have enough fan demand in the west to really overcome that.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Rayman's support thread on these Boards has been on the Front Page pretty regularly since Ultimate was announced. You saw the hype about his fake leak in Smash 4. I would say he still has a HUGE following.

I get what you are saying but that is the point. People want at least one of these MAJOR Western franchise in the game. I could be wrong, but I think each of the franchises that I listed is in the top 25 in all-time sales. With the exception of Banjo and maybe Steve (he is popular in both places), this has been a Japanese centric DLC process.

I mean if you want to go the Square route, Sora, Lara Croft, and Chrono are better picks than a character from TWEWY.

You spoke of Western fans in general but now you reduce it to Western Smash fans. That's a big difference. You might want to be more precise in your arguments.

And yeah, people want Western franchises. I'm one of them. That doesn't mean there will be one, nor that Nintendo is even aware of the demand (which only blew up once Banjo was revealed), nor that picks from Japanese franchises can't still satisfy demand from the group that clamors for Western franchises. You mentioned Sephiroth as having massive Western appeal, and that's very true. He's far from the only character that could please Western fans.

Which leads me to my main point: there being a better option in one aspect isn't the be-all end-all. Of the three characters you mention, it's true that they appeal to Western fans more. It's also true that Square Enix doesn't own Sora, that Lara might be disadvantaged by a corporate culture that prioritizes home grown products over acquisitions, and that Crono hasn't had a new game in decades. What matters isn't if TWEWY is the most Western-appealing out of Square Enix's properties but rather if it is Western-appealing enough for it not to be a problem. I'd say it more than passes.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Rayman's support thread on these Boards has been on the Front Page pretty regularly since Ultimate was announced. You saw the hype about his fake leak in Smash 4. I would say he still has a HUGE following.

I get what you are saying but that is the point. People want at least one of these MAJOR Western franchise in the game. I could be wrong, but I think each of the franchises that I listed is in the top 25 in all-time sales. With the exception of Banjo and maybe Steve (he is popular in both places), this has been a Japanese centric DLC process.

I mean if you want to go the Square route, Sora, Lara Croft, and Chrono are better picks than a character from TWEWY.

If you're trying to use post counts as evidence then that's very flawed for the following reasons.

1: If a thread only has the same 2 people in it but they post more frequently than 5 in another, it means the one with less posters would seem bigger.

2: This screws heavily with other data as it'd mean Isaac in Smash would be seen as a much bigger deal than Master Chief due to size differences between the two.

3: Neku's thread has more posts than Lara's and Crono's last I checked so your own argument would prove you wrong

 

[volbound1700]

Rayman support is weird. In Sm4sh, Rayman was seen as one of the third parties to add, although I think the ArtsyOmni leak and Rayman Legends being fresh in peoples minds might have inflated him a bit. But in Smash Ultimate, while I would not say Rayman is unpopular, I think most people can tell that his support has taken a dip, at least in how vocal it is. Maybe it is due to the Ubisoft Miis, maybe it is a bit of lost hope. I also think that it might be due to Rayman having some issues overseas.

I think it is some of the factors that you mentioned plus the following:

1. Crash Bandicoot and Rayman appeal to a lot of the same base and most of the base seems more optimistic about Crash right now.
2. The constant hints at Rayman being in and added content only to come up short every time
3. Rayman hasn't had a new game in almost 5 years

I think no fanbase (with the exception of maybe Geno) has been drug through the mud with Smash as much as Rayman. He got trophies in 4 but no appearance. I honestly thought that was a hint that Rayman would be in the base game for the next Smash. Now with each DLC pick, hope in his appearance keeps wanning.

I honestly really hope he makes it. Keep in mind that Nintendo of America responded to a letter to that girl in Kansas about Rayman. He has fan support and Nintendo knows it. I don't think that means anything regarding his chances but I know Nintendo is aware of it.

(I have been told that another potential hold-up might be Sakurai trying to figure out how to do a move set and Amiibo of Rayman. There might be technical reasons).

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Rayman support is weird. In Sm4sh, Rayman was seen as one of the third parties to add, although I think the ArtsyOmni leak and Rayman Legends being fresh in peoples minds might have inflated him a bit. But in Smash Ultimate, while I would not say Rayman is unpopular, I think most people can tell that his support has taken a dip, at least in how vocal it is. Maybe it is due to the Ubisoft Miis, maybe it is a bit of lost hope. I also think that it might be due to Rayman having some issues overseas.

I think Rayman also suffers from the unique situation his franchise is in, he only seemed to get new games because Ancel pushed for his baby, but then he got on to Beyond Good and Evil 2 before retiring from the gaming industry, which is awfully close to how Mega Man took a huge hit when Inafune left Capcom. It especially doesn't help that Rayman's recent games ended up having unfortunate release dates, pitting Legends up against GTAV and I believe Origins came out on the same day as an Assassin's Creed game. It's as if Ubisoft doesn't care about him, though apparantly there was a new Rayman trademark so maybe it just took Ubisoft a while to figure out what to do

 

[GoodGrief741]

With Rayman, I am wondering if Ubisoft's decision to make Rayman Legends multiplatform in the Wii U era and delay the launch hurt his chances. Nintendo can be pretty petty about stuff based on its history.

I think that's absolutely the case, and aside from the loyalty aspect it also hurt the sales of Legends (which remember was a Nintendo published game in certain regions) and potentially the appeal of the Wii U as it lost an exclusive overnight. Any company would have a diminished opinion of Ubisoft after that.

It was also a dumb as **** decision, did they really think a platformer would sell well on the PS3 and 360 in 2013?

 

[volbound1700]

If you're trying to use post counts as evidence then that's very flawed for the following reasons.

1: If a thread only has the same 2 people in it but they post more frequently than 5 in another, it means the one with less posters would seem bigger.

2: This screws heavily with other data as it'd mean Isaac in Smash would be seen as a much bigger deal than Master Chief due to size differences between the two.

3: Neku's thread has more posts than Lara's and Crono's last I checked so your own argument would prove you wrong

I agree with a lot of your points and understand the argument but it is some evidence to back my agreement. Rayman has a lot of supporters historically on this and several websites. He also polls high in nearly all Smash polls that are out there.

He fits the bill of being a long-running franchise character like Megaman, Sonic, Mario, etc. His series has sold over 26 Million Units (this doesn't include downloads of phone games/iOS products).

I do think his support has waned in the DLC cycle but I think a lot of that is that his fanbase has given up hope and many have jumped onto the Crash Bandicoot bandwagon who is a very similar character. (Popular Western Platformer who initially appeared on PS1 in the late 1990s).


With regard to Rayman and Smash, it almost seems like he is cursed in many aspects.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

I mean, there's a 95% chance a first-party will end up being a character created by a Japanese studio, so I don't think it's really worth pouting about Nintendo characters not being Western. Third-parties are more understandable, but it's not like suddenly getting Banjo and Steve meant we were ever getting to a point where things would be 50/50 between Japan and the West.

Personally, I wouldn't lose sleep over it. It can be frustrating, but Japanese characters will likely always take priority.

When you're both a 1st Party and a Western made character.

 

[volbound1700]

When you're both a 1st Party and a Western made character.

View attachment 318301

You kid but if a new DKC game is announced (depending on her role), she could make an appearance. I think we are underestimating the chances of another first party rep appearing. I do think a Legend of Zelda or Pokemon character are more likely.

 

[SNEKeater]

I think Neku's distinct nature is something that might given him a certain advantage in the field of Square Enix characters. Don't get me wrong virtually all the speculated front runners from SE could bring something interesting to the table but even as someone with only a passing interesting in TWEWY, I can see that he really would stand out in Smash, visual design included.

Same. I mean Neku is technically from a JRPG but visually he's really unique and distinct IMO, even if it's because of TWEWY's artstyle.

But the headphones, his idle pose, and his abilities and of course his design would definitely stand out in Smash.